Euro Spat - A Global Perspective

by Dollar Bill Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:56 am

So much has already been said on the subject I thought I'd look at this from a slightly different angle. I reckon the IRB will be under massive pressure from the SH Unions to sort this out and keep control of the HC.

The NZRFU, ARU and SARFU are finding it hard enough to keep their leading stars in their respective countries. If there is a much bigger pot of money available to European Clubs, and no Union control then the logical next step will see the Salary caps torn up and we will see many more high profile players heading north. That in turn will have a knock on effect on Super Rugby and ultimately on International Rugby as players will be forced to choose between club and country.

There are rights and wrongs on both sides of the argument , but Rugby belongs to us all. The integrity and future of the game is more important than a few money men cashing in on TV money.....there has to be a sustainable solution put in place to avoid Rugby going the way of football.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:57 am

by GunsGerms Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:05 am

Agree 100%

by broadlandboy Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:11 am

Except that it is the PRL that dictate the cap with several clubs wanting to at least increase it but the majority dont

by beshocked Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:15 am

Don't want rugby union going the way of football but equally don't want to see it to go the way of cricket either where club competitions mean very little compared to internationals.

The solution could be limiting the amount of foreigners in squads.

I think part of the reason that there is a lack of understanding from many of the Pro12 for example is because there's a lack of history.

The Southern hemisphere super XV teams have the same problem.

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:18 am

I'm suspicious, Dollar Bill. Just give me a hint as to which time zone you are in as "by Dollar Bill Today at 12:56 pm" makes it a curious tome to register as a new poster purportedly from the SH and set up a new article regarding a subject on which column yards have been been posted on this board over the past 15+ months.

I agree with the sentiment although I fear that the horse bolted as soon as the stable door of professionalism was opened.

by HammerofThunor Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:20 am

What do you mean by 'No Union control'? I expect the PRL would expect/like the same control they have over the league. Commercial control of TV rights, sponsorship. Able to put forward the changes to the competition to be sanctioned by the union. Why would it be any different for Europe? The 'ERC' board would put together a competition with defined strucutres, financial distribtuions, etc. This would be snactioned by all the unions involved. If they want to make any changes the unions would have to sanction it again. The unions not involved in the commercial selling of the competition (since every single union gives more money to the teams than they get form the ERC I don't see the issue).

What it would mean is that the unions couldn't dictate changes onto the teams involved. But they could always remove their teams/not sanction a competition later if the changes/current system is unacceptable.

by GunsGerms Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:22 am

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:I'm suspicious, Dollar Bill. Just give me a hint as to which time zone you are in as "by Dollar Bill Today at 12:56 pm" makes it a curious tome to register as a new poster purportedly from the SH and set up a new article regarding a subject on which column yards have been been posted on this board over the past 15+ months.

I agree with the sentiment although I fear that the horse bolted as soon as the stable door of professionalism was opened.

Not if he is from SA.

by Scrumpy Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:26 am

"I fear that the horse bolted as soon as the stable door of professionalism was opened."

People fear change, I guess we're not as far down the road of professionalism as we think as it's clear some people still want the sport to be amateur.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:30 am

beshocked wrote:Don't want rugby union going the way of football but equally don't want to see it to go the way of cricket either where club competitions mean very little compared to internationals.

The solution could be limiting the amount of foreigners in squads.

I think part of the reason that there is a lack of understanding from many of the Pro12 for example is because there's a lack of history.

The Southern hemisphere super XV teams have the same problem.

Hilarious! Irish provinces and Scottish districts have been playing rugby for as long as English clubs - Welsh regions have their origins and affiliations to Welsh clubs that have been doing similar. Must be those nouveaux Italians that you're referring to

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:32 am

GunsGerms wrote:
Portnoy's Complaint wrote:I'm suspicious, Dollar Bill. Just give me a hint as to which time zone you are in as "by Dollar Bill Today at 12:56 pm" makes it a curious tome to register as a new poster purportedly from the SH and set up a new article regarding a subject on which column yards have been been posted on this board over the past 15+ months.

I agree with the sentiment although I fear that the horse bolted as soon as the stable door of professionalism was opened.
Not if he is from SA.

So that would make a curious name choice, GG. Dollar Bill sort of makes sense for an Oz or a NZer or an American. Or even from Dollar, Scotland. A Saffer might be more likely to choose Randy Rand or something.

Maybe.
But I'm still suspicious.

by the-goon Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:39 am

Scrumpy wrote:"I fear that the horse bolted as soon as the stable door of professionalism was opened."

People fear change, I guess we're not as far down the road of professionalism as we think as it's clear some people still want the sport to be amateur.

I'd rather the sport remained amateur than be consummed by greed... Sport shouldn't be run like a business, the end goal isn't to make money.

by nathan Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:42 am

the-goon wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:"I fear that the horse bolted as soon as the stable door of professionalism was opened."

People fear change, I guess we're not as far down the road of professionalism as we think as it's clear some people still want the sport to be amateur.
I'd rather the sport remained amateur than be consummed by greed... Sport shouldn't be run like a business, the end goal isn't to make money.

????

It's to provide entertainment at a profit.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:47 am

beshocked wrote:Don't want rugby union going the way of football but equally don't want to see it to go the way of cricket either where club competitions mean very little compared to internationals.

Why would that happen? The main reason this debate is so fierce is because European club / regional / provincial tournaments are hugely popular and none of us, I think I'm right in saying, want them to stop.

by Dollar Bill Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:48 am

Portnoy....Why suspicious?.....do you think I have some ulterior motive for posting on a Forum?.....Am I an IRB or SANZAR plant?...Hardly!!!
First time I've posted as I am new to the Forum

Shouldn't matter where I am....more what I write, or is that not the idea of a Forum?

I am trying to look at the big picture as there have been an awful lot of parochial views expressed, and to point out that there is a much bigger picture here...that's all

by Scrumpy Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:50 am

the-goon wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:"I fear that the horse bolted as soon as the stable door of professionalism was opened."

People fear change, I guess we're not as far down the road of professionalism as we think as it's clear some people still want the sport to be amateur.
I'd rather the sport remained amateur than be consummed by greed... Sport shouldn't be run like a business, the end goal isn't to make money.

Nothing greedy about wanting a deal that helps keep the clubs in the green.

I'm affraid sport is a business and has been for years, face up to it.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:54 am

The fact that sport is a business doesn't mean we have to follow the money with no regard to the costs.

by itsallabouttheincentives Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:55 am

there is no bigger picture. there is just everyone independently trying to achieve their goals. bigger picture is just a term used to preface a different set of objectives. no more or less valid though. just a lot harder to quantify.

profit will in the long term incentivise the best growth of the game. not restrictive union control imho. people who run things for profit are not motivated by short term, ie lets take all the money from HC, but rather lets make the pie as big as we can and as sustainable as we can and get as big a share of that as we can while keeping the whole pie growing.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:57 am

No pie is sustainable unless it's inedible.

by itsallabouttheincentives Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:58 am

its a magic one that is re-baked every year Smile

by lostinwales Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:58 am

There are a few in the PRL who would love to raise the salary cap but its only desirable and practical to the majority if the available income rises to match the increase

by HammerofThunor Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:58 am

Dollar Bill wrote:Portnoy....Why suspicious?.....do you think I have some ulterior motive for posting on a Forum?.....Am I an IRB or SANZAR plant?...Hardly!!!
First time I've posted as I am new to the Forum

Shouldn't matter where I am....more what I write, or is that not the idea of a Forum?

I am trying to look at the big picture as there have been an awful lot of parochial views expressed, and to point out that there is a much bigger picture here...that's all

There has been a habit of banned posters returning under new guises. Quite often people set up accounts with alternate nationalities.

Regardless, welcome to the site and thanks for your opinion. It's been getting a bit stale on this subject with the same posters same the same stuff (myself included).

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:59 am

itsallabouttheincentives wrote:its a magic one that is re-baked every year

What kind of pie are we talking about? Sweet or savoury?

by itsallabouttheincentives Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:03 am

its a pie that isnt perfectly to anyone's liking but is just about tasty enough to keep everyone coming back for more.

by **Biltong** Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:06 am

I tend to disagree with Dollar Bill.

Let them contract as many as they want.

We have a new generation of players coming through with higher skill levels and more adventurous nature.

We must just stop selecting the overseas players for the Springboks.

by GunsGerms Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:11 am

Biltong wrote:I tend to disagree with Dollar Bill.

Let them contract as many as they want.

We have a new generation of players coming through with higher skill levels and more adventurous nature.

We must just stop selecting the overseas players for the Springboks.

Yeah right Billtong. Of course you care that there is a player drain. Yep there are plenty of good young guys coming through but history shows that experienced established teams win world cups.

It makes it harder for SA going into the next RWC that a log of their most experienced players will be playing abroad.

by **Biltong** Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:19 am

Still don't care.

I am over worrying avout who poaches, who contracts.

If you take Eben Etzebeth, his is 20 has already played Springbok rugby for two years and have 17 tests.

Come RWC he will have 40 tests experience, same with a number of others.

by **rodders** Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:20 am

Rumours flying around here that Etzebeth is off to Connacht next season to replace Swift.

by **Biltong** Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:21 am

by GunsGerms Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:22 am

Biltong wrote:Still don't care.

I am over worrying avout who poaches, who contracts.

If you take Eben Etzebeth, his is 20 has already played Springbok rugby for two years and have 17 tests.

Come RWC he will have 40 tests experience, same with a number of others.

"If you take Eben Etzebeth"

Be careful what you wish for!!

by beshocked Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:35 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
beshocked wrote:Don't want rugby union going the way of football but equally don't want to see it to go the way of cricket either where club competitions mean very little compared to internationals.
Why would that happen? The main reason this debate is so fierce is because European club / regional / provincial tournaments are hugely popular and none of us, I think I'm right in saying, want them to stop.

Oh sorry I thought that the Pro12 was just a feeder league for internationals, certainly an explanation of why most Pro12 sides are so woeful in the HC.

The debate is fierce because the English and French clubs want an European competition to run by clubs. The Pro12 want unions to keep control.

Alasbut100ofus when I talk about history I am talking about for example the Welsh. The Ospreys are only 10 years old.

I apologise about Scotland, suppose it depends if you count them as a club or a branch the Scottish rugby union.....

Zebre for example is certainly a new entity.

Plus according to Irish fans the likes of Ulster and Leinster are just branches of the IRFU. Not truly clubs in their own eyes.

by **rodders** Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:49 am

beshocked wrote:
Plus according to Irish fans the likes of Ulster and Leinster are just branches of the IRFU. Not truly clubs in their own eyes.

That is what they are, Ulster branch, Munster branch etc. not sure why you don't understand this. They are owned and funded by the IRFU but allowed to run as autonomous professional clubs, except were there are conflicts with the national interest i.e. they have strict overseas player quotas and are required to rest internationals in line with the player welfare system etc.

by GunsGerms Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:51 am

rodders wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Plus according to Irish fans the likes of Ulster and Leinster are just branches of the IRFU. Not truly clubs in their own eyes.
That is what they are, Ulster branch, Munster branch etc. not sure why you don't understand this. They are owned and funded by the IRFU but allowed to run as autonomous professional clubs, except were there are conflicts with the national interest i.e. they have strict overseas player quotas and are required to rest internationals in line with the player welfare system etc.

What difference does it make if they are clubs or branches of the IRFU? Can you not be both?

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:54 am

beshocked wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
beshocked wrote:Don't want rugby union going the way of football but equally don't want to see it to go the way of cricket either where club competitions mean very little compared to internationals.
Why would that happen? The main reason this debate is so fierce is because European club / regional / provincial tournaments are hugely popular and none of us, I think I'm right in saying, want them to stop.
Oh sorry I thought that the Pro12 was just a feeder league for internationals

Apology accepted.

by **Notch** Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:57 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
itsallabouttheincentives wrote:its a magic one that is re-baked every year
What kind of pie are we talking about? Sweet or savoury?

Sweet for some, sour for others Whistle

by Solid8 Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:59 am

beshocked wrote:Don't want rugby union going the way of football but equally don't want to see it to go the way of cricket either where club competitions mean very little compared to internationals.

The solution could be limiting the amount of foreigners in squads.

I think part of the reason that there is a lack of understanding from many of the Pro12 for example is because there's a lack of history.

The Southern hemisphere super XV teams have the same problem.

As I understand it; limiting the number of foreign players in squads/clubs is not possible in Europe due to the Bosman ruling, although the ruling was specifically about UEFA and a number various football leagues imposing limits on their players, it is in effect a EU labour law and would therefore apply to Rugby clubs and organisations as well. Any such ruling would be a gentleman's agreement, could in no way be written as policy and would be thrown out of the window the moment that someone decided to ignore it.

by beshocked Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:01 am

GunsGerms wrote:
rodders wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Plus according to Irish fans the likes of Ulster and Leinster are just branches of the IRFU. Not truly clubs in their own eyes.
That is what they are, Ulster branch, Munster branch etc. not sure why you don't understand this. They are owned and funded by the IRFU but allowed to run as autonomous professional clubs, except were there are conflicts with the national interest i.e. they have strict overseas player quotas and are required to rest internationals in line with the player welfare system etc.
What difference does it make if they are clubs or branches of the IRFU? Can you not be both?

You can't have your cake and eat it too. That's the problem.

Sounds like you want to be a club / a branch of the IRFU when it's convenient for your argument.

by **rodders** Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:03 am

GunsGerms wrote:
rodders wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Plus according to Irish fans the likes of Ulster and Leinster are just branches of the IRFU. Not truly clubs in their own eyes.
That is what they are, Ulster branch, Munster branch etc. not sure why you don't understand this. They are owned and funded by the IRFU but allowed to run as autonomous professional clubs, except were there are conflicts with the national interest i.e. they have strict overseas player quotas and are required to rest internationals in line with the player welfare system etc.
What difference does it make if they are clubs or branches of the IRFU? Can you not be both?

Not sure I follow the question?

Ulster branch (or Ulster rugby) are a branch of the IRFU which has a remit beyond just the professional team, which is just one aspect of Ulster rugby - i.e. promoting schools and grass roots rugby throughout the province etc.

The pro team is essentially a club but it is not an independent entity like the English clubs are. The same applies to the other provinces.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:04 am

I might have to buy a key lime pie for dessert tonight.

by beshocked Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:05 am

Solid8 wrote:
beshocked wrote:Don't want rugby union going the way of football but equally don't want to see it to go the way of cricket either where club competitions mean very little compared to internationals.

The solution could be limiting the amount of foreigners in squads.

I think part of the reason that there is a lack of understanding from many of the Pro12 for example is because there's a lack of history.

The Southern hemisphere super XV teams have the same problem.
As I understand it; limiting the number of foreign players in squads/clubs is not possible in Europe due to the Bosman ruling, although the ruling was specifically about UEFA and a number various football leagues imposing limits on their players, it is in effect a EU labour law and would therefore apply to Rugby clubs and organisations as well. Any such ruling would be a gentleman's agreement, could in no way be written as policy and would be thrown out of the window the moment that someone decided to ignore it.

Ideally I would like a compromise to be reached. Ultimately what I want to see is a balance between club rugby and international rugby. As it stands the unions have far too much influence on what ultimately should be a club competition in my opinion. I don't want the English and French clubs to crush the Pro12 unions into the ground - I want a happy middle ground to be found. Equally I don't want the Pro12 unions looking to push the English and French around.

by itsallabouttheincentives Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:06 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I might have to buy a key lime pie for dessert tonight.

chicken and mushroom for me Smile

by **rodders** Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:09 am

beshocked wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
rodders wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Plus according to Irish fans the likes of Ulster and Leinster are just branches of the IRFU. Not truly clubs in their own eyes.
That is what they are, Ulster branch, Munster branch etc. not sure why you don't understand this. They are owned and funded by the IRFU but allowed to run as autonomous professional clubs, except were there are conflicts with the national interest i.e. they have strict overseas player quotas and are required to rest internationals in line with the player welfare system etc.
What difference does it make if they are clubs or branches of the IRFU? Can you not be both?
You can't have your cake and eat it too. That's the problem.

Sounds like you want to be a club / a branch of the IRFU when it's convenient for your argument.

It's very simple to understand, they are provinces, not clubs, and the first and only tier of fully professional rugby in Ireland below international hence are our representatives in European competition. This has been the way since the heino began so not sure why there is any confusion?

by beshocked Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:15 am

Rodders why does it say on google this in regards to ulster.

www.ulsterrugby.com

Official site with news, fixtures, results, league tables, player profiles and club
information.

Ulster Rugby

@UlsterRugby
Pro Rugby Club based in Belfast playing in the RaboDirect PRO12 and Heineken Cup. Coached by Mark Anscombe, captained by Johann Muller

That's their twitter page too.

Just a slip of the tongue of those who work for Ulster?Are Ulster themselves wrong? Oh dear.....

by St John The Enforcer Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:16 am

beshocked wrote:
Solid8 wrote:
beshocked wrote:Don't want rugby union going the way of football but equally don't want to see it to go the way of cricket either where club competitions mean very little compared to internationals.

The solution could be limiting the amount of foreigners in squads.

I think part of the reason that there is a lack of understanding from many of the Pro12 for example is because there's a lack of history.

The Southern hemisphere super XV teams have the same problem.
As I understand it; limiting the number of foreign players in squads/clubs is not possible in Europe due to the Bosman ruling, although the ruling was specifically about UEFA and a number various football leagues imposing limits on their players, it is in effect a EU labour law and would therefore apply to Rugby clubs and organisations as well. Any such ruling would be a gentleman's agreement, could in no way be written as policy and would be thrown out of the window the moment that someone decided to ignore it.
Ideally I would like a compromise to be reached. Ultimately what I want to see is a balance between club rugby and international rugby. As it stands the unions have far too much influence on what ultimately should be a club competition in my opinion. I don't want the English and French clubs to crush the Pro12 unions into the ground - I want a happy middle ground to be found. Equally I don't want the Pro12 unions looking to push the English and French around.

I wouldn't dissagree with that in principle beshocked. Sadly I think egos at the top on both sides have made that impossible. To the detriment of rugby fans in all of the 6n.

by broadlandboy Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:17 am

What I can't understand is those that say the Union controlled teams are to benfit the international team yet have non qualified players. I have heard the arguement about better players improving the qualified players but surely it's for the coaches to improve them.

by Portnoy's Complaint Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:18 am

If it's of any interest, I think that the PRL stinks as an organisation formed by self-seeking clubs who want to maintain their perennial dominance in the English game.

Plus the ERC is a committee of self-seeking union delegates populated by self-abusers who have gradually coalesced into a cabal of yes men and blind visionaries.

European club (etc.) competition is in need of total reform from it's sewers upwards.

The minor detail of who qualifies is the least of its problems.

by beshocked Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:20 am

st john the enforcer the difficulty is we don't truly know the whole picture. We don't know what the English and French clubs would be willing to compromise upon. Equally we don't know what the Pro12 sides would be willing to accept.

We can speculate only. It's easy to criticise the English and French clubs because they want change. Change is generally not appreciated. Perhaps the English and French are being unreasonable with demands. We just don't know.

by broadlandboy Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:27 am

If the Unions are successful IMSHO this will restrict the spread of rugby out it's traditional areas. With Union success where would the players whose Unions havn't a professional team be able to play rugby full time?

by **rodders** Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:29 am

beshocked wrote:Rodders why does it say on google this in regards to ulster.

www.ulsterrugby.com

Official site with news, fixtures, results, league tables, player profiles and club
information.

Ulster Rugby

@UlsterRugby
Pro Rugby Club based in Belfast playing in the RaboDirect PRO12 and Heineken Cup. Coached by Mark Anscombe, captained by Johann Muller

That's their twitter page too.

Just a slip of the tongue of those who work for Ulster?Are Ulster themselves wrong? Oh dear.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Rugby

Ulster Rugby, usually referred to simply as Ulster, is one of the four professional provincial rugby teams from Ireland. They compete in the RaboDirect Pro12 and the Heineken Cup. The team represents the IRFU Ulster Branch, which is one of the four primary branches of the IRFU and is responsible for rugby union throughout the geographical Irish province of Ulster, comprising six counties in Northern Ireland and three in the Republic of Ireland. Ulster play their home games at Ravenhill in Belfast, which has a capacity of 13,500.

The pro team is one aspect of Ulster branch, which are a branch of the IRFU - they are not a club in the sense that Saracens are in that they don't have complete autonomy - for example overseas signings must be okayed by the IRFU and they are required to rest and sometimes play certain players at the IRFUs request.

by beshocked Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:36 am

Oh right rodders so wiki is more reliable than Ulster themselves? Okay if you say so......

Okay they might not have complete autonomy but they call themselves a club.

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