Aviva Premiership - Round 4 Preview

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Table:

Friday 27th September

19:45 Northampton Saints v Sale Sharks (BT Sports)
Saints and Sharks enter this fixture both with two wins and separated by a single point in the table. Do not let that fool you into thinking this will be close. Sale are a decent, workmanlike side - but Saints, always powerful, now have a real sprinkling of stardust. Northampton will be hurting from the nature of their defeat last week, but will hopefully have reflected on the things they failed to do to secure the victory Mallinder felt his team deserved. Mallinder has spoken about the need to rotate his team more than they usually do if they are to reach the end of the season with enough left in the tank to win a trophy. With their smaller than average squad, that may be tricky - and for this game probably just means that the Pisi brothers will return to the team.
Steve Diamond was rather cagy when discussing Danny Cipriani's performance last week. He knows that he has a match winner on his hands, but at the same time there is obviously something about Cipriani's dedication that rubs the Sale boss up the wrong way. With Nick McLeod looking to have picked up a serious injury, their is little alternative to the former england man. I do wonder though just how strong the team around him will be. I can see Diamond resting a number of players ahead of their home fixture next week.

Surely a comfortable win for Saints



Saturday 28th September

15:00 Bath Rugby v London Irish
So, did Gary gold and Mike Ford rest players to save them, or did they really think they had the right tactics last week. Irrelevant now, but Gold looked rather chastened in post match interviews. For the return to the Rec we can expect to see the powerful players omitted last week, and George Ford, re-instated to the starting lineup. The LI old boys will be especially keen to impress against their old team. While Jonathan Joseph is in the EPS and Matt Garvey gets the 606 plaudits I reckon that Anthony Watson will turn out to be the biggest success. I fully expect him to show LI what they are missing.
London Irish of course still have some excellent backs themselves, from the experienced Irish half-backs to the every improving Marland Yarde. With 4 tries in 3 matches Yarde has shown power, pace and an eye for the line. Will surely earn more England caps this season. However in the end, like most matches, this will be decided by the battle up front. Bath's pack looks too big and too strong.

Bath to win by more than 7


15:00 London Wasps v Worcester Warriors
The two bottom teams meet in a vital clash. With the number of points that Warriors have been conceding, DR Dean Ryan should perhaps spend more time working on his team's frailties and less on moaning about referees. Worcester do not look like a side who will score lots of tries, so they must improve their defence.
Wasps have garnered 3 LBPs from their 3 matches - all effectively away from home. As they play yheir first match at their own ground this week, they will feel that they are just a tiny improvement away from winning games. Losing however can become a habit and Wasps will be desperate to win this one and avoid heading to Saracens in round 5 seeking their first win.

Gut feel that Wasps will turn it on for a comfortable win



15:15 Harlequins v Saracens (BT Sports)
Probably the highlight of this rounds fixtures, sees the two losing semi-finallists from last season meet for the first time this season. Against a poor Worcester team, Quins showed championship winning form last week. If they can play at, or close to, their best they should be able to win this match. Saracens however are in stunningly good form. If you cannot dominate them up front, they are very good at steam rollering teams. This has already been demonstrated against three packs which, for various reasons, are not the strongest Sarries will face.
Quins will be the toughest match so far for Sarries, but are they strong enough? Certainly the more technical Quins front row will look to get the ref on their side early, whilke elsewhere they will be looking to move the bigger pack around and tire them out. In the end I feel this match will be decided at the breakdown. Sarries are expert at slowing down opposition ball, some would argue killing the ball and Quins have to counter this.

Saracens continue winning ways




Sunday 29th September

14:00 Exeter Chiefs v Leicester Tigers (BT Sports)
In their first televised match of the season, Chiefs welcome the defending champions looking to replicate the results of two seasons ago. Both sides have two wins, and whoever seals victory in this match will find themselves in the Top4. Both sides have injury issues, but then who doesn't. Tigers will need to play better than they have so far this season if they are to travel home with a win.


Newcastle Falcons v Gloucester Rugby
Gloucester secured their first win of the season in controversial fashion last week, while Falcons appeared to gift tigers victory by resting key players. Falcons have to pick a big pack and hope that Blair and Clegg/Godman can keep them in the right part of the pitch. Thing is, even then Gloucester look to have too much ability.

Gloucester to continue the new found winning habit

Nowt wrong with your line out either, stub. Rock solid.

Thanks Hound!

Bring on Newcastle then...

I hope Merrick isn't too injured, cause at the moment we have literally no locks left...

I suppose we could look at a short term injury replacement... But then it's not like they're are many locks kicking about just waiting to be picked up!

Looks like Bath are going to be a little light in the lock department too with both Atwood and Day replaced yesterday and with Caldwell and Spencer both injured.

Garvey has been top draw in the games so far and slotted into the second row no problem, he actually looks bigger than Hooper who always plays 100% for the team. Looking forward to getting Louw and the two argentine front rowers into contention and Fearns and Abendanon back from injury too.

Garvey is huge Recwatcher. We all knew he would be the one that we would miss the most, and so it has come to pass.

Quins were slightly disappointing in that second half. To go an entire 40 mins at home without scoring a point is not the Quins of the last two seasons. Evans almost disappeared from the game and Casson didn't really show up at any point.

Yeah. Once we went behind I knew we had lost

At least brown was good and Robshaw was good actoss the pitch though Burger outplayed him at the breakdown

Burger seems to have spent his time out the game refreshing the rest of his body, he looks incredibly fit and fresh. He was an absolute machine for Sarries. Will Fraser is set to come in and rotate with him as well. Nothing like two quality 7s kept fit and fresh... that's a freekin scary Sarries backrow.

Where's PDJ? Collier got schooled yesterday.

Sam, PDJ picked up a niggle last week and is out for a game or two. Sadly Collier while showing signs of getting better will probably never be good enough to be first choice or to worry top opposition props. I've chatted to an ex Quins academy prop who really didn't rate him but he went to the right school and knew the right people.

Agree the Sarries backrow is impressive. What makes them so good though is the gameplan, it suits their strengths perfectly and hides their weaknesses.

Brown and Robshaw are always good. The issue is the other 21 players who have massive changes in form apparently at the flip of a coin. Casson at least is a youngster having his first proper run of games and I expect he'll get a lot better as he beds in and the rest of the team pick up their games. It's difficult to have an impact as a 12 when you're almost always on the backfoot and having to scramble, and even more so when you're inexperienced and not the biggest.

I suspect more may come from Casson should Botica be given the 10 shirt as Evans isn't the same player as he was when you won the title.

The Sarries backrow can certainly be targeted as they do contest the breakdown and can be pressured into conceding penalties.

stub wrote:Thanks Hound!

Bring on Newcastle then...

I should add that your 6 (Jonathon Thomas?) was excellent in the line out. Though we did nick one off you that led to a try.

Other plus points - Mieres is a good solid 10. Lemi has still got it; his battle with Wade was something of a sub plot all afternoon.

You need a livelier 9 than Hodgson though imo. The two wingers are class; great stepping ability, but they don't get the ball quickly enough to trouble defences on a regular basis.

For Wasps, Nathan Hughes was very good, but was subbed at about 50 mins and Launchbury was outstanding (again). Elliott Daly was also lively in his first game back.

Hound of Harrow wrote:

stub wrote:Thanks Hound!

Bring on Newcastle then...

I should add that your 6 (Jonathon Thomas?) was excellent in the line out. Though we did nick one off you that led to a try.

Other plus points - Mieres is a good solid 10. Lemi has still got it; his battle with Wade was something of a sub plot all afternoon.

You need a livelier 9 than Hodgson though imo. The two wingers are class; great stepping ability, but they don't get the ball quickly enough to trouble defences on a regular basis.

For Wasps, Nathan Hughes was very good, but was subbed at about 50 mins and Launchbury was outstanding (again). Elliott Daly was also lively in his first game back.

We also have Su'a (and Arr) at 9 so maybe time for a change... Thomas does look like a good acquisition and is Wuss captain.

What a player Wasps have in Wade - just incredible to watch but good to hear that Lemi still gave him something to think about!

Wade's try came after a good break by Hughes, who slipped the ball to Charlie Davies, who then slid a nice grubber kick through for Wade to run on to. A good tactic as Wade is often double marked these days.

did i just hear the ref tell a player to wind his neck in a bit. hehe

Wigglesworth a has been pretty poor reffing the breakdown so far.

What's the score, nathan? I'm in a pub with no BT Sport.

Hound of Harrow wrote:What's the score, nathan? I'm in a pub with no BT Sport.

15 nil to the tigers. A very stop/start game, think the ref could do a little more to let the game flow a bit more. Lots of handling errors from Exeter though and there lineout has been a bit woeful.

Cheers

55% win ratio for the Exeter lineout, eek!

Just had an update from a mate. Potential bp and 2nd place on offer.

I can't quite believe it, but apparently its sunny up at KP - perhaps we may get our first win up there in 6 years...

Typed far, far too soon!! Falcons have scored a try already!  

why did wigglesworth allow a quick through in when it should of been a scrum from the knock on?

the ref has gotta let those exeter throws go, there not that far off being straight and it's just ruining this game.

nathan wrote:why did wigglesworth allow a quick through in when it should of been a scrum from the knock on?

Teams can now choose whether to take the scrum or the lineout. Or should it have been a scrum to the other side?

HammerofThunor wrote:

nathan wrote:why did wigglesworth allow a quick through in when it should of been a scrum from the knock on?

Teams can now choose whether to take the scrum or the lineout. Or should it have been a scrum to the other side?

ah right didn't know that. It was a Exeter scrum so yeah Wigglesworth was correct! i take it back!

HKC.....ooops

Exeter are playing loads better in this half, it's going to be a close ending.

you got to hand it to the exeter fans, how silent the ground was when flood was taking that kick

does he want the players to do a quick dance around before going after the ball again, there is no contest at the breakdown.

well, very scrappy start, stop game. Think both teams and the ref could of done better to make that a good game.

Just got another update. 21-9 to Tigers; brutal game by all accounts.

Hound of Harrow wrote:Just got another update. 21-9 to Tigers; brutal game by all accounts.

Not really, it was a bit boring really. Lots of errors from exeter.

Brilliant to see that Miles Benjamin will make an A team appearance tomorrow. Looked fit and well on the touch line

Tough old arm wrestle at Sandy Park. Took Exeter a quarter of the game to even get any meaningful possession, but they had the lions share in the end. Tigers seemed to drop their level a bit and seemed comfortable to defend their lead. The way they defended in the 22 was excellent and did well to keep Chiefs tryless despite all the pressure.

They will need to do more than defend next week though and will need the intensity for 80 minutes.

A very physical game but neither side particularly clinical. Big Dave Ewers had a cracking game at 8 for the Chiefs, very physical but very mobile at the same time. Surely he should be in the Saxons squad ahead of Waldrom.

Tigers controlled the lineout and the scrum and had a huge opening 20 minutes. Parling going off didn't help our control in the second half. Both Flood and Youngs looked rusty, Allen though had a great game (again) and surely must be gathering some of Lancaster's attention.

Allen is a bit of an unsung hero for Tigers. Mr. Consistent and an excellent defender. I would say he merits a place in the elite squad ahead of Barritt as he also offers more of an offensive threat.

Just my opinion mind.

He pulled a brilliant clearing kick out of nowhere as well today. We so rarely see him kick yet when we do he is rather good at it. For my mind an option that would bring a lot of stability to the England backline.

Very underrated outside of Leicester. He has everything Barritt has and more. And Barritt is a Lion!

I think he could even play at 13 for England with the current injury list. He seems pretty comfortable in either centre role.

The hoodoo is at last gone, although we did our best to let it continue by being 10-0 down. We could be in major trouble in the scrum though as with Woody being banned for the next 6 weeks and Murphy going off injured after 4 minutes we only have Yann Thomas a powerful but raw LH/TH and the untested Tom Heard. Hopefully Murphy's injury is not too bad...

Im a little concerned.
Silly mistakes, poor kicking skills and poor kicking decisions...kick kick kick straight back to opposition...

Its going to come down to our battle with the other relegation potentials...and if we can pick some points up against the mid table teams...

So after the first 4 rounds, the table looks like this:

Pos.Team P W D L -/+ BP Pts
1 Saracens 4 4 0 0 78 3 19
2 Northampton 4 3 0 1 51 3 15
3 Leicester 4 3 0 1 47 3 15
4 Bath 4 3 0 1 29 1 13
5 Harlequins 4 2 0 2 8 2 10
6 Sale 4 2 0 2 -10 1 9
7 Gloucester 4 2 0 2 -30 1 9
8 Exeter 4 2 0 2 -29 0 8
9 London Wasps 4 1 0 3 7 4 8
10 London Irish 4 1 0 3 -41 1 5
11 Newcastle 4 1 0 3 -51 1 5
12 Worcester 4 0 0 4 -59 1 1

I think we can probably safely say that the top 3 will still be in pretty similar positions come the end of the season. Down at the other end, Newcastle and Worcester is already looking like a big fixture. By my calculation, Newcastle have only scored c.35 points in the 4 games so far, which has to be a bit of a worry for them.

I wouldn't say Allen is underrated when reading Hound and maverickmak's posts!

Better than Barritt? Based on what exactly? Performing well consistently at club level? Barritt has done that too.

Allen is a good player true but he's unproven at international level. On his last outing at international level he was not good enough. He should be better of course because that was a long time ago but no one knows how he'll do. You can speculate but that's all it is - speculation.

Just my opinion, but neither Allen nor Barritt are international quality.

Who is better? Well that is down to personal opinion. Barritt is stronger defensively (though Allen is not bad at this aspect) while Allen tends to offer more attacking threat.

Londontiger I don't like it when people talk about certain players not being international quality because it seems very vague.

International quality compared to whom? Barritt has shown he's international quality by holding down a place in the England side. He won't be world class but that's another term entirely.

I agree Anthony Allen hasn't shown international quality with just 2 caps more than 5 years ago.

I think Barritt has looked solid at international level. Sure he has things he needs to work on but he's hardly been outclassed on a consistent basis. He's unfashionable but he's helped England a lot with Lancaster in charge - shutting down BOD vs Ireland, scoring a try vs NZ and having a good partnership with 36 vs Scotland.

Is Barritt the way forward? Probably not but he's been a dependable figure for England in the centre.

Allen in comparison has not shown this at international level yet.

Barritt is International quality, but more sort of Scotland Int then NZ Int quality...  

Ok, so have now seen the highlights of our game with Bath and I am going to write this post carefully so as to try to not be seen to be moaning.

First up, Bath were better than us, and in no way did not deserve their win. However, it is hard enough playing against a good side like them, without getting done over by the officials.

Try 1. The ball carrier runs into the referee who impedes our tackler from getting to him. Should be play stopped and an attacking scrum. Would we have defended it? Probably not, as our defence in the first half was porous at best. It would however have been nice to have had a fair chance to do so.

Try 2. Ball going into touch from a Bath kick touches Topsy Ojo on the way out. TJ signals Irish throw and Irish stop. Ford takes a quick one and Mercer goes over unopposed. Ref goes to TMO who says it was Bath's throw and therefore a try. No argument that it is Bath's throw, but surely they cannot be allowed to take a quick one when the TJ has informed our players that it's our ball and we therefore stop.

Try 3. Absolute gash tackling from our lot, so part of me thinks we got what we deserved. However, the ref is not close enough to make a decision on the grounding, and the TMO gives the try despite there being no camera angle which shows the ball being grounded.

Hagan yellow card. Attacking scrum to us. Hagan gets pinged for going down and carded. Why would he drop it deliberately when we were attacking in the Bath 22 and needed a try to get back in it?


We played 20 minutes of the second half with 14 men and won it 8-0. Whilst I accept that Bath took their foot off the gas, I am very disappointed that the team didn't show the same fight in the first half as they did in the second. A few players really dug in for us, but one or two need to have good long look at themselves in the mirror. Not good enough for 40 minutes out there, and unless we replicate the second half performance for 80 minutes on a regular basis then we are going to be in trouble this season.

Gutted.

I have been critical recently of Barritt but he most definately is an international quality player..he has proven that...his defensive, physical, rucking, (extra flanker type skills) are very much at the required level.

He has been a central figure for lancaster as he has created a team that is good at the basics. Probably one of the first names on the teamsheet.

My issue has been offensively he is limited. Now IF Farrell can start making the breaks he is showing so far this season and a bit more creativity (or Burns starts)...add in Eastmond or maybe Twelvetrees at 13 to interchange with Barritt for a bit more creativity on attacking plays etc then he still could be a very prominent name on the teamsheet...

We keep a defensive general and leader, but push him out on attacking plays.