What do the Pro 12 teams do if theres no European cup?

Leaving aside all the talk of surrounding it and the political stuff, I thought I'd start a thread discussing possible alternatives only.


If theres no European cup rugby next season then these are some of the alternatives I heard.

- More international matches
- A Pro 12 division 2 involving teams from developing countries. It would have promotion and relegation.
- Expand the Pro 12 to 14 teams with teams from Scotland or Italy or Spain etc.
- Smaller squads.


Some good ideas in there. I like the idea of a Pro 12 division 2 involving developing nation's teams but it would take a bit of organising. Its certainly not impossible to do though. Go to the unions of those countries and see can they raise the money but with the condition that only the country's union can make decisions.

More international matches would bring in money to each union. Maybe start a tournament involving Georgia, Russia, Romania etc too. Too many internationals would effect crowd size but with no HEC there would be an appetite for more big matches. It would also allow each country more time to strengthen and blend as a team.

Expanding the pro 12 would mean 2 more games per team. The problem here is the quality of the opposition.

Smaller squads would happen anyway. Less games means less need for bigger squads. The problem is who to cut loose. I think NIQs and those not good enough to be internationals would be the ones to go.



Financially, teams would take a hit without a European cup but if every team is concentrating on the Rabo league then it will generate more interest. Also its on sky and going to get a new sponsor next season. Crowds and TV audience are growing at 4 - 5% which is a healthy growth. With no Euro Cup we could see an even greater increase in attendances and TV audience numbers. You'll also have the sky hype machine behind it next season so expect the general view of the league to improve. People are easily fooled by that kind of stuff.

Run a European cup. Invite the French and English to join. 2nd division if the first will not play. maybe invite the european minnows to play as as national sides. Spain, Romania, Georgia etc.

there still will be a european cup - its just the English and French may decide they dont want to play in it but I bet the french do in the end. We have been here before

Invite 2 English div 1 teams, and 2 French Div 1 teams into the rabo?

Cornish Pirates would love to enter, as would London Welsh!

No - invite them into the ERC run european cup that will run. the pro 12 does no need any more teams in it.

IMSHO a Pro 12 second division would be a great idea however it would need financial assistance to get going which the Celts seem unwilling to do as Italy have to pay to be in the Rabo & dont get any of the money from the media deals that the Celts sign

Wow, Incentives, it might be time for you to chill out.

TJ's point stands. It is perfectly possible that the Pro12 unions, with the French cooperating, will start a new European Cup and doll out the spots previously taken by English clubs to the next best clubs from the remaining nations. So a European cup containing Connacht, Dragons, Ayr, Perpignan and Viadana. I'd pay to watch that.

It's a shame that the English wouldn't be taking part, but we have to be willing to plan and prepare for a world in which English rugby is irrelevant, and there's no need to get shirty with us while we're doing it.

TJ wrote:No - invite them into the ERC run european cup that will run.  the pro 12 does no need any more teams in it.

Is there actually anything stopping that, allowing the T14 and AP go off in whatever direction they see fit and invite say London Welsh, Cornish Pirates, Leeds Carnagie and Rotherhan Titans? Lyon, Argen, Bourgoin, and Pau to join the ERC and compete?

Its not unwilling to do so - its unable.

butterfingers wrote:Invite 2 English div 1 teams, and 2 French Div 1 teams into the rabo?

Cornish Pirates would love to enter, as would London Welsh!

Good idea.


Another idea I forgot to mention is arrange for the RFU and FFR to enter regional teams in it or support the likes of Cornish Pirates entering it.

butterfingers wrote:

TJ wrote:No - invite them into the ERC run european cup that will run.  the pro 12 does no need any more teams in it.

Is there actually anything stopping that, allowing the T14 and AP go off in whatever direction they see fit and invite say London Welsh, Cornish Pirates, Leeds Carnagie and Rotherhan Titans? Lyon, Argen, Bourgoin, and Pau to join the ERC and compete?

I think this is highly likely.  Apart from the PRL and FFR are not going to have a cross boarder competition

Posted on May 21, 2013

FFR president Pierre Camou summoned senior representatives of the six competing nations amid signs that the French clubs, far from quitting, are willing to get back to the negotiating table.

Camou, a retired 68-year-old banker, is understood to have backed up his call for the French clubs to get back in line by warning that they will be replaced in Europe if necessary by makeshift French teams chosen on a regional basis.

TJ wrote:

butterfingers wrote:

TJ wrote:No - invite them into the ERC run european cup that will run.  the pro 12 does no need any more teams in it.

Is there actually anything stopping that, allowing the T14 and AP go off in whatever direction they see fit and invite say London Welsh, Cornish Pirates, Leeds Carnagie and Rotherhan Titans? Lyon, Argen, Bourgoin, and Pau to join the ERC and compete?

I think this is highly likely.  Apart from the PRL and FFR are not going to have a cross boarder competition

Well I've stated plenty of times, the last thing I want is the English sides not competing in europe (especially as mine aren't even there regurlarly) but if the PRL get their way they are gone. From my POV any euro comp needs English representation to be viable, lesser English representation isn't great but it'll do, and as they receive the monetary gains from such they will strengthen. At that point the PRL will have a fight on their hands to keep non sanctioned PRL clubs from promoting, and hopefully when we get to the point that enough lower league clubs get stronger and more formiddable the PRL will be vanquished?

profitius wrote:

butterfingers wrote:Invite 2 English div 1 teams, and 2 French Div 1 teams into the rabo?

Cornish Pirates would love to enter, as would London Welsh!

Good idea.


Another idea I forgot to mention is arrange for the RFU and FFR to enter regional teams in it or support the likes of Cornish Pirates entering it.  

I can't verify it, but I had heard that FFR were considering entering regional sides in the event of LNR pulling out. Apparently regional sides were consider quite a while ago, but never materialised for whatever reason.

I really like the idea of a second tier in the Rabo, but funding may prove problematic.

Unless the LNR do a complete u turn it would be the 3rd level of rugby from France as the LNR represent the top 2 levels of French rugby. How appealing would a competition without the PRL/LNR teams be?

Who would play in a second tier Rabo tho?

broadlandboy wrote:Unless the LNR do a complete u turn it would be the 3rd level of rugby from France as the LNR represent the top 2 levels of French rugby. How appealing would a competition without the PRL/LNR teams be?

Not very. But better than none and better than the crumbs the PRL are offering.

So an increase in what they are getting now is crumbs to you as opposed to a decrease in what will probably happen

he wont listen. he'll tell you its unfair because the evil prl/lnr get relatively richer. and no point addressing the per nation vs per club funding topic.

broadlandboy wrote:So an increase in what they are getting now is crumbs to you as opposed to a decrease in what will probably happen

they have not been offered an increase - they have been offered the same while the french and english get a lot more thus making the Rabo unions relatively worse off.  Crumbs form a rich mans table never taste good.
a decrease is unlikely - as they rabo unions have other ways of earning money using the spare weekends I f no euro cup and will be able to keep more of the continuing euro pot even if smaller as no english to take the lions share

I know but I can't help myself from knocking my head against a brick wall in the hope that some sense will get out

Guys did you read the top of the OP? Have another look:

"Leaving aside all the talk of surrounding it and the political stuff, I thought I'd start a thread discussing possible alternatives only."

Not getting on my high horse, but it might be a nice break from the  on the other threads.

Carry on the HEC invite the T14 and AP teams ranked below the top six.

An try to find room for the european minnows toplay as countries - spain, romania, Georgia etc

Maes, so you think the PRL only represent the top 6 teams & the LNR only represents the top6 in the Top14?

Can we stick to the subject folks. There are about 10 other threads if ye want to have a rant.  

Munchkin wrote:

profitius wrote:

butterfingers wrote:Invite 2 English div 1 teams, and 2 French Div 1 teams into the rabo?

Cornish Pirates would love to enter, as would London Welsh!

Good idea.


Another idea I forgot to mention is arrange for the RFU and FFR to enter regional teams in it or support the likes of Cornish Pirates entering it.  

I can't verify it, but I had heard that FFR were considering entering regional sides in the event of LNR pulling out. Apparently regional sides were consider quite a while ago, but never materialised for whatever reason.

I really like the idea of a second tier in the Rabo, but funding may prove problematic.

Maybe they need to be pushed into doing it. Either way if the French and English want to start up some regional teams I'm sure the Pro 12 unions would be more than willing to help them out.


Funding would be problematic and also the money would have to be shared out more equally to all the teams in both divisions. However a second division with more teams would give it a real European feel and thats would generate more money.

profitius wrote:Leaving aside all the talk of surrounding it and the political stuff, I thought I'd start a thread discussing possible alternatives only.


If theres no European cup rugby next season then these are some of the alternatives I heard.

- More international matches
- A Pro 12 division 2 involving teams from developing countries. It would have promotion and relegation.
- Expand the Pro 12 to 14 teams with teams from Scotland or Italy or Spain etc.
- Smaller squads.

I cant see where the money would come from for a second division in the Pro12. Spain couldnt afford to run one regional setup and I'd imagine we'd need at least 8 teams to have a proper division. While we might get one or two from Georgia or Romania, I cant see Scotland supporting another team (they have trouble enough financing 2). Russia probably be the best bet as they have a professional league but are they too far away?

Smaller squads seems inevitable as less matches mean less players. This will probably mean more players leaving for the Aviva or Top 14/16. However if the break from a European competition is just for a year or even 2 the Pro12 teams could be a lot weaker upon re-entry.

More International matches is probably the best bet. Even if its just games against low ranked countries before the 6 nations these games could really stand to us going into a World cup (especially teams like Ireland and Scotland with new coaches coming in).

If there's no European rugby then the rabo teams need to cut their cloth accordingly - let the overseas players go and reduce their squad sizes.

In terms of the Pro12 format I'd leave that alone, try and get a decent sponsor which should be easier now its on sky.

Definitely there is no scope for more sides, if anything losing the heino could mean letting teams go like Connacht, Zebre and Dragons and the Unions pumping reduced resources into less teams.

TJ wrote:Who would play in a second tier Rabo tho?  

Probably Edinburgh or Cardiff Blues the way they are both playing. Sorry couldn't resist.

Russian teams is definately a possiblity. They sent over a team to Ireland in the summer to play 2 matches against a Munster and Connacht development team and actually managed to win both games.

If there is a possiblitity of promotion then I can see some rich guy pumping money into the club.

The main issue I see with the OP topic is the loss of games and revenue from the additional matches.

For me replacing the games however only becomes meaningful if your playing good opposition because lesser teams wouldn't bring in the money or crowd that would be required to cover the cost of something new.

For me there are 2 options. One is a quick one, the other you wouldn't be able to bring in for many years which could be to late.

Option 1 - Create a global tournament involving the S15 teams.

Option 2 - Expand the Pro 12 to incorporate more of the fringe unions that have been ignored for a long time. You couldn't just add 12 teams though without seriously affecting the tournament. To add an interesting twist you could essentially have 24 sides (each playing one another only once per season). Home one year, away the next year. That would open the league up as team would be forced to take games away as seriously as at home games. Plenty of Unions around for this but locations to play could be tricky.

profitius wrote:
- More international matches
- A Pro 12 division 2 involving teams from developing countries. It would have promotion and relegation.
- Expand the Pro 12 to 14 teams with teams from Scotland or Italy or Spain etc.
- Smaller squads.

1- More International Matches.

Without the HEC (and I assume the LV= / B&I Cup will be ditched too), there will be atleast 6 weekends spare. I think it could be shuffled around something like the following would work nicely.

Sept to Nov - Rabo
Nov - AIs (and a weekend off, or 4th AI)
Dec - Rest/Training
Jan - 1st week Rest/Training, rest Wales/Italy/Ireland/Scotland (Rabo based players only) International Friendlies against each other
Feb - March - 6Ns
March - Apr - Rabo

That way the Rabo would be in two blocks, and not the 6/7 blocks it is in now. Also the option of a 4th AI (USA, Canada, Japan etc if need be). And if we could get a few friendlies against each other using just Rabo based players then that should give us four a boost going into the 6Ns, and also encourage players to stay in our countries in order to have a better chance of being selected in case someone else ousts them whilst they are not available.

2- A Pro 12 featuring developing countries.

This could be done, providing the developing countries were entered as a 'best of ..... league' team, and only play at home. This would ensure that the costs for the developing sides are minimal, and also that their standards are as high as possible.

3-Expand the Pro 12 to 14 teams with teams from Scotland or Italy or Spain

I think that the Boarders, RGC1404 and the Valleys have all been discussed on here so much already a fair bit over the last few years. The only issue will be funding the sides.

4 - Smaller squads

I assume you mean having say 30 pros on the books, and then dipping into the semi-pro teams (AIL, Welsh Prem etc) to plug gaps when players are out injured? If so this is not a good move to make IMO, as it will lead to even more players upping and leaving for the RCC, and probably at an earlier age. Seeing as the French don't seem to care about nationality for their national team, this could lead to a huge number of Italians, Irish, Welsh and Scots playing for France as opposed to their own nations.

A Pro12 Div 2 could have 6 combined Academy teams* from the existing Pro12 participants and a team each (put forward by their unions) from Georgia, Portugal, Spain, Russia, Romania and Belgium (based on current IRB rankings). Clearly the Academy teams could not be promoted.
This would be good for the Pro12 teams (and the 4 unions) as their academy players would gain great experience and also for the 6 countries mentioned (they would presumably play their national teams minus those already playing in the big leagues which would develop more depth). There could be rules allowing the Pro 12 teams to play (say) up to 5 players from their main squad to help players coming back from injury or keeping peripheral squad members match fit.

Cost would clearly be an issue and there might have to be a fair degree of altruism shown at the start. For example putting gate money into a central pot - I suspect that the Irish home games could attract several thousand while at the other end of the scale there might only be a few hundred at some of the 6 new countries home games. (you would have to hope that the Scottish /Welsh combos would at least attract a couple of thousand). Ticket prices would clearly have to be much lower than for Pro12 games. Hopefully there would also be some TV money - again I think this would have to go into a central pot at the start. You'd like to think the IRB would also come up with some funding given the involvement of 6 emerging nations.

*Edinburgh/Glasgow, Treviso/Zebre, Munster/Connacht, Ulster/Leinster, Cardiff/Dragons, Ospreys/Scarlets (Apologies if I have made a glaring cultural error with the Irish and Welsh combos)

Do Glasgow have to combine with Embra, Malky?!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Do Glasgow have to combine with Embra, Malky?!

For the good of the game!!!!

Shame then that the Celts show no altruism to those less fortunate than them as shown by Italian teams having to pay to be involved in the Pro12

Welshmushroom wrote:

Option 1 - Create a global tournament involving the S15 teams.

Option 2 - Expand the Pro 12 to incorporate more of the fringe unions that have been ignored for a long time.  You couldn't just add 12 teams though without seriously affecting the tournament.  To add an interesting twist you could essentially have 24 sides (each playing one another only once per season).  Home one year, away the next year.  That would open the league up as team would be forced to take games away as seriously as at home games.  Plenty of Unions around for this but locations to play could be tricky.  

At first I baulked at the thought of a global tournament, but actually, why not? The Super15 have been talking about expansion and have invited Argentinian and Japanese sides to consider joining. I doesn't have to be created in one fell swoop. Talks could be initiated with the SH unions to explore possibilities. For cost reasons it would have to be run in a similar fashion to Super Rugby with games scheduled over tours of the country. If the Super15 sides were overstretched then play against the ITM cup side etc.

Another interesting possibility is opening up talks with US and Canadian Unions. There has been a big push in the last few months to establish a US pro league and something like this would solidify it and potentially awaken the sleeping giant of world rugby. It would need a few years to develop, but any kind of national TV deal in the US would make the BT Sport money look like chump change.

So for a transatlantic league we would simply run it in pools as per Super Rugby.

broadlandboy wrote:Shame then that the Celts show no altruism to those less fortunate than them as shown by Italian teams having to pay to be involved in the Pro12

The Italians joined midway through a planned financial cycle for the Pro12 teams.
The payment represents the additional costs for travel and larger squads (as the Italians entrance meant that matches had to be played in international windows). Given that the majority of Irish/Scottish/Welsh internationals play in the Rabo surely you can understand this.
Very few teams are making additional money out of the Italians joining the league (The Irish might be due to their large crowds but deserve it for the very reason of attracting large crowds.)

I would do the following.

1. Turn the B&I cup into the Rabo 2 division and have the S10 teams in instead of the english championship sides.  Could be done on a simillar set up.  Also allows unions to enter new teams for thier regions eg. Valley rugby, Roma leigion etc

2. Talk to the other euro nations and offer that teams in the B6N can enter their national team (less their forgien based players) into the Rabo.  I think georgia, russia, rominia and belgium would join.  I think spain and portugal can't afford it as shown by spain's Amlin team.  That takes us to 16 teams to play home and away.
If all 6 joined you could do 34 games and top two playoffs.

3. I would take two weeks extra before the 6N and AIs for our teams to get better.

Pros
We are building up the teir below us and opening up new markets.
Streghtening a second division without adding to much and it would allow the other nations to add a second team when they were ready.
More prepared national teams.

Cons
The other unions might not be able to have a team playing 30 games a year and still get 1000+ attendance.
Money as it always come down to.

This summer rominia and georgia held tournaments and sold out each week.

As with the current Rabo teams attendance isn't important it is that it is going up.  I think most Rabo teams are growing by between 5-10% a year.

Also games during the 6N for the B6N would be their games and viewed as the internationals aswell as their league game.

Also if we did this it really would give us a stronger hand in any new euro competitions as we would double the unions involved in the Rabo.

SA did something simillisr with Namibia and Zimbabwe but they didn't have the money.

A relatively simple fix would be a nations cup with 3 groups of 4 based on the 4 Irish in 1 pool, the 4 Welsh in a 2nd pool and the Scotish and Italians in the 3rd pool, make up Pool 4 with representational teams from any other intrested nations.
the pool stages will draw good crowds due to been primarily local derbies.
pool winners have home advantage for the QF as now so 4 different countries are guaranteed a home QF.
Erc already has a deal with SKY to televise a tournament and with the rivalry between TV companies I cant see them pulling out, they'd by more likely to promote it massively on the lines of having the majority of the Lions team playing in it.

broadlandboy wrote:Maes, so you think the PRL only represent the top 6 teams & the LNR only represents the top6 in the Top14?

In a way yes.

I think the lower ranked T14 and AP teams would jump at the chance to be honest. It would be massively beneficial to them giving them great fixtures against the top clubs in Europe rather than getting a good hiding from teams they can't compete with on a purely financial basis.

I'm all for good rugby...!

If we're going to arrange friendlies in January or whenever, they should be against Spain, Russia, etc. (the nationalities of the clubs that could be in the new competition) otherwise the 6 Nations may become less interesting. If we're adding additional games I'd like to see one or two games at home in June. Trust me, it's the best time for an international, and prepares us well for a tour to the SH.

I like the idea of a 23 team League - home one year away the next (22 games/team/year). The top 16 would go through to 4 groups of four who play home and away (6 games/team/year). Group winners into semis and final .

So the weaker 7 teams in the league get 11 home games and 11 away games to develop against some top opposition but also against their own level.

The top 16 earn a place on merit to the group stages and get another 3 home and 3 away lucrative games.

The elite 4 have end of season knock outs and crown a champion.

It is high time the Irish, Welsh, Scots and Italians capitalised on the strengths of their league, rather than focus on the weaknesses. What they have is diversity. If they get enough Unions involved then they can command big tv audiences through aggregation.

The Great Aukster wrote:I like the idea of a 23 team League - home one year away the next (22 games/team/year). The top 16 would go through to 4 groups of four who play home and away (6 games/team/year). Group winners into semis and final .

So the weaker 7 teams in the league get 11 home games and 11 away games to develop against some top opposition but also against their own level.

The top 16 earn a place on merit to the group stages and get another 3 home and 3 away lucrative games.

The elite 4 have end of season knock outs and crown a champion.

It is high time the Irish, Welsh, Scots and Italians capitalised on the strengths of their league, rather than focus on the weaknesses. What they have is diversity. If they get enough Unions involved then they can command big tv audiences through aggregation.

Sounds very interesting.

The Saint wrote:If we're going to arrange friendlies in January or whenever, they should be against Spain, Russia, etc. (the nationalities of the clubs that could be in the new competition) otherwise the 6 Nations may become less interesting. If we're adding additional games I'd like to see one or two games at home in June. Trust me, it's the best time for an international, and prepares us well for a tour to the SH.

Just a thought, instead of full blown internationals, there could be 'trials' games, in the weekends before the 6Ns, AIs and Summer tours. Taking Wales as an example, we could have say Probables Vrs Possibles, before the AIs, East Vrs West before the 6Ns, and say Scarlets/Dragons V Blues/Ospreys before the Summer tours. I reckon all of those should draw big crowds into the MS, and also they would give the national set up a chance to get involved with a larger number of players, and see how they interact with each other etc.

SS, I don't think we really need the 'trials' seeing as we have only four teams anyway, we just need to hope the selectors pick on form. That means leaving out random 18 year olds and Premiership regulars. Also, if Gill is playing better than Bevington then pick him for god's sake, don't just leave him out because he plays for Sarries. We also already have 'Judgement Day' to be played in Cardiff and last years was a relative success, which is also what you seem to be suggesting.

Quite possibly, we could get a senior A team up and running instead and get them to play some competitive fixtures against other A teams and maybe other european minnows.

In short...
The Eng & French want this rugby championship because of the huge BT TV deal....thats why they have no interest in the ERC Hcup. The ERC stakeholders are not due to meeting until late Oct and the meetings to date have been fruitless and few & far between...Could it be that this is just the ERC showing they are trying...but that they all know its dead?

But for me, there will be a euro cup, it will be the Rugby Champions cup....It just about how much the celtic nations can negotiate to get from the BT vision pie... This business of the qualification from the celtic league is just a side issue...its the money that important.


Saying that the celtic nations will have to agree to a changed qualification process...
Possible bonus - A positive effect on the quality of the Rabo with them having to play better teams. B
But is there a lack of understanding from the English about how the game is run in celtic nations?
The teams are run by the unions and manage players deliberately...why? to protect players for the international team...and why do they do this? Simple - Player numbers....Huge in Eng & France in comparison and if celtic nations do not protect their players, their lack of depth leads to a weakened national team.
Before we argue why the Welsh team seems to do well even though most play in Eng or FR...have we really seen the effect yet of this exodus yet? Only time will tell..

Raboo division 2 - With Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian, Georgian franchises & maybe Welsh, Scottish, Irish club sides or even a new team in south london somewhere supported by all 4 celtic unions (good marketing)
......Could be an option...but would even the winner be good enough to be promoted to the Rabo. Maybe to big a gap....no promotion & relegation for a few years til it beds in though, perhaps..

Whats struck me about this is that the English and French have got no go ahead from any international governing body and this presents a number of issues, playing in an unsanctioned tournament could in theory lead to a punishment for unions and/or clubs but if they fail to deliver a European tournament it could lead to a breach of contract with the English clubs with their BT contract which they have tied themselves into.

Yes Marty


That is why those who have spent the most recently, Wray and Craig, are the ones spouting such rubbish in the press