What do the Pro 12 teams do if theres no European cup?

First topic message reminder :

Leaving aside all the talk of surrounding it and the political stuff, I thought I'd start a thread discussing possible alternatives only.


If theres no European cup rugby next season then these are some of the alternatives I heard.

- More international matches
- A Pro 12 division 2 involving teams from developing countries. It would have promotion and relegation.
- Expand the Pro 12 to 14 teams with teams from Scotland or Italy or Spain etc.
- Smaller squads.


Some good ideas in there. I like the idea of a Pro 12 division 2 involving developing nation's teams but it would take a bit of organising. Its certainly not impossible to do though. Go to the unions of those countries and see can they raise the money but with the condition that only the country's union can make decisions.

More international matches would bring in money to each union. Maybe start a tournament involving Georgia, Russia, Romania etc too. Too many internationals would effect crowd size but with no HEC there would be an appetite for more big matches. It would also allow each country more time to strengthen and blend as a team.

Expanding the pro 12 would mean 2 more games per team. The problem here is the quality of the opposition.

Smaller squads would happen anyway. Less games means less need for bigger squads. The problem is who to cut loose. I think NIQs and those not good enough to be internationals would be the ones to go.



Financially, teams would take a hit without a European cup but if every team is concentrating on the Rabo league then it will generate more interest. Also its on sky and going to get a new sponsor next season. Crowds and TV audience are growing at 4 - 5% which is a healthy growth. With no Euro Cup we could see an even greater increase in attendances and TV audience numbers. You'll also have the sky hype machine behind it next season so expect the general view of the league to improve. People are easily fooled by that kind of stuff.

I posted this on the topic that has been amalgamated, but appropriately it should be posted here, when asked what should the Rabo clubs do when the HC disbands, I posted the 4 Welsh Regions should play each other, home and away, the Irish should do the same and the Scots and Italians similarly.
Interestingly the Ospreys had a higher total attendance figure for their home fixtures against the other Welsh Regions than for their HC matches against Toulouse, Leicester and Treviso, 37549 against 31982. So much for the pulling power of the French and English Giants, with some innovative marketing with the help of the WRU and those numbers could dramatically increase, the same would no doubt happen in the Irish section and those 2 countries could help out the Scottish and Italian section. This would all start when Sky start to broadcast some of the Rabo games, the WRU could have a sealed bid battle between all the broadcasters for this new tournament, that should fetch in a decent amount of money, at least OBLIVION would be thwarted.

stub wrote:Nos - I was just answering the questions not necessarily saying that one model is better than another. In truth we don't know although we may prefer one more than another. I do however think that all stakeholders have a vested interest in developing the game elsewhere - even the PRL and even if that is for reasons of profit.

I appreciate that Stub. But I was merely trying to draw out the national narrow-minded bias behind the question (and the answer) that broadlandboy was putting forward (and implying). The answers phrased as a simple matter of numbers hide the fact that they are biased towards two particular nations' larger populations. They are not figures that mark out that model for a universal expansion of the game. And moreover, those figures are also dubious given that they were in no way really dependent on the PRL model (unless you believe that professional rugby could only have existed in England under that model - which seems very unbelievable to me.)

Fair enough Nos - it's important that everyone tries to understand the viewpoints of others. Particularly important within Europe's rugby organisations at the moment!

Nos, I believe that I understand the Rabo Unions Point of view & understand that not all Unions can support >10 top level teams.What I was trying to do was to get some people to realise that the PRL/LNR have done some good & are not the devel incarnate that they seem to think they are

Sorry., BB, but I think the PRL/LNR are the devil incarnate. They look at the soccer boys and what they are doing and they want to do that too. Their model will destory rugby as a sport.

The bottom line is that the PRL didn't have the imagination to create the Heineken Cup and were not involved initially. Now they want to take it over. The fact that it is regarded as one of the great sporting competition is down to the rugby unions guarding it and keeping the money men out of it.

Also, pro rugby could possibly have existed another way in England but ,IMHO,we are where we are & to change now probably would have disasterous reasult for English rugby which could transfer to the international scene as England is one of the top 3 financial power houses of rugby.

Sin,IMHO, the PRL do not want the same as the soccer boys.They realise that to have a viable league you need about 12 competitve teams. Hense they even out payments from the central pot so they get roughly the same,they have a salary cap which some want to increase but can't until the majority agree. As for not creating the HEC at the time they were too busy getting used to being professional from amateur it doesn't mean that they can't help to improve it

wayne wrote:I posted this on the topic that has been amalgamated, but appropriately it should be posted here, when asked what should the Rabo clubs do when the HC disbands, I posted the 4 Welsh Regions should play each other, home and away, the Irish should do the same and the Scots and Italians similarly.
Interestingly the Ospreys had a higher total attendance figure for their home fixtures against the other Welsh Regions than for their HC matches against Toulouse, Leicester and Treviso, 37549 against 31982. So much for the pulling power of the French and English Giants, with some innovative marketing with the help of the WRU and those numbers could dramatically increase, the same would no doubt happen in the Irish section and those 2 countries could help out the Scottish and Italian section. This would all start when Sky start to broadcast some of the Rabo games, the WRU could have a sealed bid battle between all the broadcasters for this new tournament, that should fetch in a decent amount of money, at least OBLIVION would be thwarted.  

Do you think the attendance thing may just be down to the fact the away supporters can easily get to the game?

And a minor point. Last year 13000 and change went to see Tigers at the Liberty. 8200 went to see Blues, 9900 went to see Dragons and 19400 went to see Scarlets in the boxing day game. So the only Welsh derby that had a higher attendance than the Tigers game was the boxing day game (which usually sells out so 19000 is relatively bad). Just for reference the year before the Scarlets game had 12000 attendance as it was not on at Christmas.

Sin é wrote:Sorry., BB, but I think the PRL/LNR are the devil incarnate. They look at the soccer boys and what they are doing and they want to do that too. Their model will destory rugby as a sport.

The bottom line is that the PRL didn't have the imagination to create the Heineken Cup and were not involved initially. Now they want to take it over. The fact that it is regarded as one of the great sporting competition is down to the rugby unions guarding it and keeping the money men out of it.

Maybe they didn't have the imagination because they didn't exist? And actually the growth of the HEC into a great competition coincides with more and more English involvement, both in terms of on-field (more teams) and the off field (made stakeholders).

Not saying it's linked by a happy coincidence.

Lads, while I appreciate the civility in these posts... it seems to me we're dragging this post away from the (much more interesting) original title topic and back towards the (over-talked) debate surrounding the details of the ERC/PRL split.

I feel the only relevance of what we're all getting in our points at is similar to what Aukster was getting at earlier in the thread. That is: if the Celtic/Italian teams and the IRB (and the national unions) truly believe in their rhetoric about the expansion of the game on a more equal competitive footing, then (in the absence of a PRL/LNR compromise) they need to back their vision and set about making it happen on a broader basis. That requires an element of risk and invention. It may also require IRB backing and a certain amount of ring-fencing and exclusion like Sin is suggesting (but I would see that as an extreme final option). But if they don't push hard and defend that vision with a certain amount of passion and commitment... For instance, if they only look to rebuild and continue the Pro-12 more or less in its current form... alongside the PRL and LNR... then they will slowly get picked off and become an irrelevant 2nd tier sideshow.

So this thread should really go back to proposing and reviewing those future options!

Regions seem unsettled
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/sep/28/welsh-heineken-cup-crisis

I think some people are being a little unrealistic with some of these suggestions. Ones that won't work, expanding the Pro12 with more teams from where-ever. Unless an Italy is done again (they have to cover costs and get none of the TV money from the British/Irish teams) then it's going to be a lost cause. Even if they do then it'll be a few more games with (probably) smaller than average attendances.

The more realistic ones. Local derby competitions. More internationals. A Pro12 cup. Might not make the money back but it will reduce the loss.

NB: I know it's off topic but can we knock of the "equal competitive footing" stuff? The Pro12 divvy up their TV money by where it comes from so WRU get more than anyone else and SRU get pittance. Not only that but the massive new sky deal gives nothing to the Italians who have to cover the costs of joining. It's hypocrisy pure and simple. If it was all about equality the TV money would be pooled and split evenly between all 12 teams. Or perhaps it should be unions so the FIR and SRU get as much as the WRU and IRFU?

broadlandboy wrote:Regions seem unsettled
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/sep/28/welsh-heineken-cup-crisis

That's just more of the same. The Ospreys and Blues at least have been reasonably supportive of the PRL's move. Note the RRW voted for Wheeler rather than Lux. In a program last September Hore was saying he approved on the requests from the PRL and that was echoed by a guy in Blues outfit I didn't know (maybe just a supporter).

broadlandboy wrote:Regions seem unsettled
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/sep/28/welsh-heineken-cup-crisis

The McCafferty quote seems hilariously disingenuous. Forgive me if I've got this wrong, but don't the PRL's and McCafferty's Champions Cup proposals directly cut the Welsh Regions proportion of the HC pay-out from it's current share?

This all sounds familiar somehow... oh yeah, now I remember:

"I'm a poor little sheep with no place to sleep. Please open the door and let me in.
Not by the hair on our chinny-chin-chin. You can't fool us with that old sheepskin.
Then, by the hair on your chinny-chin-chin, I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your house in!"

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:Regions seem unsettled
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/sep/28/welsh-heineken-cup-crisis

The McCafferty quote seems hilariously disingenuous. Forgive me if I've got this wrong, but don't the PRL's and McCafferty's Champions Cup proposals directly cut the Welsh Regions proportion of the HC pay-out from it's current share?

This all sounds familiar somehow... oh yeah, now I remember:

"I'm a poor little sheep with no place to sleep. Please open the door and let me in.
Not by the hair on our chinny-chin-chin. You can't fool us with that old sheepskin.
Then, by the hair on your chinny-chin-chin, I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your house in!"

Well he's proposing that each regions gets the same as each PRL club.

HammerofThunor wrote:
NB: I know it's off topic but can we knock of the "equal competitive footing" stuff? The Pro12 divvy up their TV money by where it comes from so WRU get more than anyone else and SRU get pittance. Not only that but the massive new sky deal gives nothing to the Italians who have to cover the costs of joining. It's hypocrisy pure and simple. If it was all about equality the TV money would be pooled and split evenly between all 12 teams. Or perhaps it should be unions so the FIR and SRU get as much as the WRU and IRFU?

This is the same old nonsense that is always brought up against practical efforts towards equality in whatever field. I'm sorry but without some effort being made to enforce some real equality, sport becomes increasingly meaningless.  Saying that there should be equality in sport, as in society, does not have to mean ripping everything apart and starting from absolute zero where everyone immediately gets the exact same. It can mean something as simple as rejecting those steps that lock in advantages and lead towards further systematic inequality. It also means encouraging more and more steps towards expansion and the development of greater equality - whatever the hypocrisy of the current system. So no, I'm afraid we can't all start by agreeing to dismiss something that is central to the beliefs of those us who object to the very essence of the PRL campaign.

HammerofThunor wrote: Well he's proposing that each regions gets the same as each PRL club.

So he's proposing a pay-cut to their current contract... while declaring himself to be really looking out for their interests. Yeah, very genuine. My mistake.

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:
NB: I know it's off topic but can we knock of the "equal competitive footing" stuff? The Pro12 divvy up their TV money by where it comes from so WRU get more than anyone else and SRU get pittance. Not only that but the massive new sky deal gives nothing to the Italians who have to cover the costs of joining. It's hypocrisy pure and simple. If it was all about equality the TV money would be pooled and split evenly between all 12 teams. Or perhaps it should be unions so the FIR and SRU get as much as the WRU and IRFU?

This is the same old nonsense that is always brought up against practical efforts towards equality in whatever field. I'm sorry but without some effort being made to enforce some real equality, sport becomes increasingly meaningless.  Saying that there should be equality in sport, as in society, does not have to mean ripping everything apart and starting from absolute zero where everyone immediately gets the exact same. It can mean something as simple as rejecting those steps that lock in advantages and lead towards further systematic inequality. It also means encouraging more and more steps towards expansion and the development of greater equality - whatever the hypocrisy of the current system. So no, I'm afraid we can't all start by agreeing to dismiss something that is central to the beliefs of those us who object to the very essence of the PRL campaign.

HammerofThunor wrote: Well he's proposing that each regions gets the same as each PRL club.

So he's proposing a pay-cut to their current contract... while declaring himself to be really looking out for their interests. Yeah, very genuine. My mistake.

I don't understand how your response is relevant to my comment (first one).

And he's talking about giving them more money. With some of the extra money being used to top up the clubs to the same level.

He is proposing a small increase for the Rabo teams with a larger increase for the PRL/LNR teams to bring them up to that which the Rabo teams get so all teams get the same for taking part in an european comp

HammerofThunor wrote:

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:Regions seem unsettled
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/sep/28/welsh-heineken-cup-crisis

The McCafferty quote seems hilariously disingenuous. Forgive me if I've got this wrong, but don't the PRL's and McCafferty's Champions Cup proposals directly cut the Welsh Regions proportion of the HC pay-out from it's current share?

This all sounds familiar somehow... oh yeah, now I remember:

"I'm a poor little sheep with no place to sleep. Please open the door and let me in.
Not by the hair on our chinny-chin-chin. You can't fool us with that old sheepskin.
Then, by the hair on your chinny-chin-chin, I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your house in!"

Well he's proposing that each regions gets the same as each PRL club.

Gents, don't you think the last paragraph of the Guardian article tends to highlight the lack of clarity we have in this fiasco?

The regions have a agreement with the WRU worth £16.5m a year and the union has said it will not make up the £4.4m shortfall if there is no European rugby next season. The regions may challenge if the WRU is legally bound to pay the total sum. The deal runs out at the end of the season and the regions have until December to decide to renew. If the legal advice goes in their favour, they will seek to roll over the deal rather than renegotiate a new one. "Without the Heineken Cup money, we will be in trouble and we would have to look at every potential course of action," said the director, "including defying the WRU.

But,

"The Premiership Rugby chief executive, Mark McCafferty, said he sympathised with the regions. "The tournament we are guarantee them more money," he said. "I totally understand the issues they have over signing players and it shows that if the Celtic unions stand in the way of the Rugby Champions Cup, they will be damaging rugby in their countries."

So, for the Welsh Regions, do they have a shortfall or would they receive more money?  This is one of the main points on the table, no?  I thought some numbers were floated, but I don't recall.

Under the PRL proposal each region would more money. Something like 400k was suggested I think. However each English club would gain 1.5M more, or something like that. So at the end of it they would each receive the same.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:
NB: I know it's off topic but can we knock of the "equal competitive footing" stuff? The Pro12 divvy up their TV money by where it comes from so WRU get more than anyone else and SRU get pittance. Not only that but the massive new sky deal gives nothing to the Italians who have to cover the costs of joining. It's hypocrisy pure and simple. If it was all about equality the TV money would be pooled and split evenly between all 12 teams. Or perhaps it should be unions so the FIR and SRU get as much as the WRU and IRFU?

This is the same old nonsense that is always brought up against practical efforts towards equality in whatever field. I'm sorry but without some effort being made to enforce some real equality, sport becomes increasingly meaningless.  Saying that there should be equality in sport, as in society, does not have to mean ripping everything apart and starting from absolute zero where everyone immediately gets the exact same. It can mean something as simple as rejecting those steps that lock in advantages and lead towards further systematic inequality. It also means encouraging more and more steps towards expansion and the development of greater equality - whatever the hypocrisy of the current system. So no, I'm afraid we can't all start by agreeing to dismiss something that is central to the beliefs of those us who object to the very essence of the PRL campaign.

HammerofThunor wrote: Well he's proposing that each regions gets the same as each PRL club.

So he's proposing a pay-cut to their current contract... while declaring himself to be really looking out for their interests. Yeah, very genuine. My mistake.

I don't understand how your response is relevant to my comment (first one).

And he's talking about giving them more money. With some of the extra money being used to top up the clubs to the same level.

C'mon guys... we've rapidly descended back into the useless circular arguments of previous threads. You know what I meant and where all this codeword talk of club/union/region/province stuff is all heading again. The fact is that McCafferty is trying to peel off the Welsh regions into a new deal drawn up and controlled by the PRL/LNR clubs that ensures a far greater proportion of the overall pot for their sides than its current division. Do we need to go on and on again... No... coz we've already been down that road.

As to my earlier comments on the importance of the arguments surrounding equality... I had thought I addressed them fairly squarely and relevantly to your earlier comment. Moreover, you have made that point about Pro 12 hypocrisy over and over. I was trying to explain why that is not necessarily the case. Stopping the development of further systematic inequality in any field can be as much of a victory as expanding equality further in that field.

Anyways... as I keep saying.... (So I'm giving up on adding to the distractions from here on)... the topic is about proposals and reviews for a future separate existence for the Pro 12 teams, the ERC... as well as maybe the IRB and national unions. Lets get back to it.

Hammer... Unfortunately my head does agree somewhat with your comment that many of the great ideas here will ultimately prove unviable, however. But that does not mean they should simply give up without a fight to save what has been built up over the last decade or more.

Future for the Rabo unions.

1) Keep the pro 12 in its existing format
2) run a European cup inviting French and English teams - 2nd division if the first won't play and / or Georgia, Spain, Romania etc
3) put on an extra international or two - maybe a round robin tourney instead of the autumn internationals?  

Remember if it all falls apart the English and the french will face serious sanction and will have no cross boarder comps to play in one would hope.

TJ wrote:Future for the Rabo unions.

1) Keep the pro 12 in its existing format
2) run a European cup inviting French and English teams - 2nd division if the first won't play and / or Georgia, Spain, Romania etc
3) put on an extra international or two - maybe a round robin tourney instead of the autumn internationals?  

Remember if it all falls apart the English and the french will face serious sanction and will have no cross boarder comps to play in one would hope.

Sorry I am at a complete loss to understand as to why the English and French will face serious sanctions 'if it all falls apart' as currently they are withdrawing from a competition by giving due notice as required by the regulations of that competition.

The PRL and LNR won't face sanctions unless they try to go ahead with the RCC without union and IRB approval. Wray today came out very antagonistic towards Gosper and the IRB threatening legal action so it seems the PRL are beginning to believe their competition won't be given the green light.

As for the money it depends entirely on figures. Bruce Criag was apparently saying the provinces got 3m each. Apparently the year he quoted was two years ago though when we had 3 QFs, 2 SFs and both finalists. I don't see why the Rabo unions can't make up the shortfall with some extra games/comps but Wales is the biggest worry in this regard. What happens to the PRL/LNR isn't important to this topic.

I think it is only the blues and Os we have to worry about and to be fair they are being squezed by soccer.
But i don't think they would join as they would face losing their places in the Rabo.

When does the LV cup finish. I wonder if that will be pulled by the WRU

I think all possibilities have been explored.

More internationals are the easiest way, the most likely way of getting more money in.

a change in format to the pro 12, like the top 14 having some weird 6 way playoff at the end of the year would help.

Who will they play? Will these matches sell out? How much profit does an International actually make?

Internationals against the big teams make a lot of money. Against smaller teams less so. I think triangular tournaments or similar like the Scotland / SA one this summer are possible. 5 / 6 autumn internationals rather than the 3 / 4 we have now.

broadlandboy wrote:Who will they play? Will these matches sell out? How much profit does an International actually make?

Not only who will they play against but who will for Pro12 nations. It looks like virtually the entire Welsh team will be playing in England and France. There is no chance of these players being released for extra internationals. So Wales will play the team who lost to Japan. How many people will pay to watch that?

That will not happen.  The whole point of playing extra internationals is to allow the PRO 12 unions to have enough money to prevent that player exodus.

Edit. a top international game brings in 3 million or more in extra income plus TV rights. A game against smaller sides less of course. So 2 extra internationals plus some income from a european cup without the top english and french clubs will make up the loss of income from the HC as it is now.

don't be fooled - a euro cup without the prl and lnr teams is more than a possibility