What do the Pro 12 teams do if theres no European cup?

First topic message reminder :

Leaving aside all the talk of surrounding it and the political stuff, I thought I'd start a thread discussing possible alternatives only.


If theres no European cup rugby next season then these are some of the alternatives I heard.

- More international matches
- A Pro 12 division 2 involving teams from developing countries. It would have promotion and relegation.
- Expand the Pro 12 to 14 teams with teams from Scotland or Italy or Spain etc.
- Smaller squads.


Some good ideas in there. I like the idea of a Pro 12 division 2 involving developing nation's teams but it would take a bit of organising. Its certainly not impossible to do though. Go to the unions of those countries and see can they raise the money but with the condition that only the country's union can make decisions.

More international matches would bring in money to each union. Maybe start a tournament involving Georgia, Russia, Romania etc too. Too many internationals would effect crowd size but with no HEC there would be an appetite for more big matches. It would also allow each country more time to strengthen and blend as a team.

Expanding the pro 12 would mean 2 more games per team. The problem here is the quality of the opposition.

Smaller squads would happen anyway. Less games means less need for bigger squads. The problem is who to cut loose. I think NIQs and those not good enough to be internationals would be the ones to go.



Financially, teams would take a hit without a European cup but if every team is concentrating on the Rabo league then it will generate more interest. Also its on sky and going to get a new sponsor next season. Crowds and TV audience are growing at 4 - 5% which is a healthy growth. With no Euro Cup we could see an even greater increase in attendances and TV audience numbers. You'll also have the sky hype machine behind it next season so expect the general view of the league to improve. People are easily fooled by that kind of stuff.

They haven't but they will...especially if the Celtic nations sign up for it...and they will...because of the money on the table

RF09 wrote:They haven't but they will...especially if the Celtic nations sign up for it...and they will...because of the money on the table

I am not too sure the celtic unions will sign up to the RCC, or atleast I think they will sit it out for a season, and see what happens. After all that is what the English did with the original HEC and worked out ok for them.

RF09 wrote:They haven't but they will...especially if the Celtic nations sign up for it...and they will...because of the money on the table

You dont get it, there has been a new deal signed for the HC with increased money coming in from TV. If the English and French arent there thats more money for the Rabo teams to share amoungst themselves, if the RCC doesnt get signed off on the French and particularly the English are the ones who are screwed.

Well negotiated by ERC if sky's contract is not dependent on participation of the two largest viewing nations.

itsallabouttheincentives wrote:Well negotiated by ERC if sky's contract is not dependent on participation of the two largest viewing nations.

Check your PMs please.

From Whiff of Cordite:

The Champions Cup for Winningest Winners

As one canny tweeter pointed out yesterday, with each public utternace, the LNR, the PRL, the unions and the ERC become more and more entrenched in their position. It’s increasingly hard to see how a resolution will be achieved.  In what has become a particularly ugly game of high-stakes poker, the current strategy on all sides is to continually over-raise one another ad infinitum.

Yesterday we had Bath chairman Bruce Craig, a man with the greater good of the game no doubt at the forefront of his mind, effectively blackmail the Celtalian unions.  If you do not join our ‘fabulous new European competition’, said the man who paid Beaver to eat out, you will face ‘financial oblivion’.  The highlight of his little outburst was his assertion that the Cup for Winningest Winners was going to ‘save European rugby’.   Those who didn’t know exactly what European rugby needed saving from now had their answer: these guys.

Then Jacky Lorenzetti, the Racing Metro chairman, laid out the grand scope of the new competition.  It will apparently include South African, Australian and New Zealand franchises, a veritable World Club Cup.  How such a thing could possibly work has not been revealed.  The fact that England and France are on literally the opposite corner of the globe to New Zealand and Australia appears to have gone unheeded.  Will Bath be trekking the 30-plus hours required to get to Canterbury to play a Cham-pi-on-es Cup match against the Crusaders? And get toasted by 60 points based on current squads?  It looks like a ludicrous over-bet.  Perhaps the next step for those on the other side of the table is to the call them on it.

Also, all three Celtic unions have come out with the same statement saying that their clubs/regions/provinces/districts will not be participating in any tournament not sanctioned by both the IRB and the respective union

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

RF09 wrote:They haven't but they will...especially if the Celtic nations sign up for it...and they will...because of the money on the table

I am not too sure the celtic unions will sign up to the RCC, or atleast I think they will sit it out for a season, and see what happens.  After all that is what the English did with the original HEC and worked out ok for them.

That's a very sensible strategy. Any rebel/unsanctioned Franglo thing is going to be pretty dull viewing (juggernaut teams hitting lumps out of each other on undersized pitches) and there's no need to jump into such a poorly planned mishmash of a tournament.

The Rabo has many flaws - this is the perfect opportunity for the 'Celts' and Italians to take stock and improve their own structure.

How can you be "literally" on opposite corners of a "globe"? I know that's not the point but it's annoying. It's, like, literally the opposite of what literally means...literally.

ERC is entrenched because it has limited scope. It (as it is now) was never going to be running a competition post-2014. The PRL have been pretty clear from that at the beginning. The question is what form does the governing board of the Super Dooper Cup take? If at all. And does the ERC carry on with a modified group? But it wouldn't be the ERC that exists now.

Nice, I like it  

I think the unions have already put irons in the fire if the worst happens, I know the WRU are looking at extra international matches.

Some good ideas coming on the thread. A lot of it will come down to money. Personally I like the idea of a second division based on one franchises for each developing country. So thats basically their international team with a few foreigners to help them out. You would also have the possibility of the Celts loaning them players.


Many English clubs are out of the PLR loop so they could jump at the chance of joining up.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:From Whiff of Cordite:

The Champions Cup for Winningest Winners

As one canny tweeter pointed out yesterday, with each public utternace, the LNR, the PRL, the unions and the ERC become more and more entrenched in their position. It’s increasingly hard to see how a resolution will be achieved.  In what has become a particularly ugly game of high-stakes poker, the current strategy on all sides is to continually over-raise one another ad infinitum.

Yesterday we had Bath chairman Bruce Craig, a man with the greater good of the game no doubt at the forefront of his mind, effectively blackmail the Celtalian unions.  If you do not join our ‘fabulous new European competition’, said the man who paid Beaver to eat out, you will face ‘financial oblivion’.  The highlight of his little outburst was his assertion that the Cup for Winningest Winners was going to ‘save European rugby’.   Those who didn’t know exactly what European rugby needed saving from now had their answer: these guys.

Then Jacky Lorenzetti, the Racing Metro chairman, laid out the grand scope of the new competition.  It will apparently include South African, Australian and New Zealand franchises, a veritable World Club Cup.  How such a thing could possibly work has not been revealed.  The fact that England and France are on literally the opposite corner of the globe to New Zealand and Australia appears to have gone unheeded.  Will Bath be trekking the 30-plus hours required to get to Canterbury to play a Cham-pi-on-es Cup match against the Crusaders? And get toasted by 60 points based on current squads?  It looks like a ludicrous over-bet.  Perhaps the next step for those on the other side of the table is to the call them on it.

Also, all three Celtic unions have come out with the same statement saying that their clubs/regions/provinces/districts will not be participating in any tournament not sanctioned by both the IRB and the respective union

Just like the French

LordDowlais wrote:I think the unions have already put irons in the fire if the worst happens, I know the WRU are looking at extra international matches.

I had been wondering whether or not they were making out alternative plans.

profitius wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I think the unions have already put irons in the fire if the worst happens, I know the WRU are looking at extra international matches.

I had been wondering whether or not they were making out alternative plans.

It will be a massive shame if we lose the HC becuase it is starting to have a lot of history, from the battle of Brive, when Ponty were there right up to the hand of Back in the Cardiff final, but because of the six to seven weeks we would be saving from not playing it, the season would end earlier and they are looking at having some May/June tests before any tours are taken.

I was reading an article about Rupert Murdoch and Kerry Packer the other day. Packer was signing up a load of amateur players to turn professional but it would have been outside the IRB's control. Then Murdoch stepped in and offered the IRB an alternative and so Super rugby was created. After the game went pro down south it went pro in Europe although a lot of countries were reluctant.


If Packer got his way you would probably think the international game was at risk.


So maybe this could be a watershed time for the game in the northern hemisphere or world rugby.

profitius wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I think the unions have already put irons in the fire if the worst happens, I know the WRU are looking at extra international matches.

I had been wondering whether or not they were making out alternative plans.

They would have been dull not to. I think the moment that the English started to moan about the Rabo envolvement the alarm bells were probably ringing in the unions, and some rough ideas were being formed.

Look guys, I can tell you this, do not be worried. O.k the HC will be a sad loss, but we CAN manage without our big brother(England). They seem to think that the only way for us to survive is for us to follow them like sheep, but it does not work that way. Look, I am far and away a lover of the WRU, but they have turned around a union that was loosing money hand over fist, to one that is now making record profits, these people are not dull when it comes to making money, I have not heard one iota of a murmurings from Roger Lewis during all this fiasco, why, because he know's they can make up the shortfall else where, and bet your mortgage the WRU and the Regions will be holding meetings shortly on how they intend to go forward if the worst happens.

Roger Lewis is not really likely to be the saviour of the regions though is he, he is more likely to use it as an opportunity to gain control of them as they go bust so he can re align the regional game to suit his own plans.

2ndtimeround wrote:Roger Lewis is not really likely to be the saviour of the regions though is he, he is more likely to use it as an opportunity to gain control of them as they go bust so he can re align the regional game to suit his own plans.

You may be right. Although whether the regions go along with this is yet to be seen. They may join the new competition and join PRL and LNR in suing for restraint of trade.

I agree with previous posts - if the HEC goes down this is an opportunity to expand the game into europe. I think the Pro12 needs to be given focus 1st up though. Is it going to be the competition for the Celtic teams from now on? If so then perhaps we will see a more attractive competition and improve crowd numbers. There is the option of bringing back the Celtic cup - personally I wouldn't. I think inviting the minor european countries into a development competition would be a very forward thinking move. There are other big economies in europe at the end of the day. I think it's time to look at bringing the fringe rugby nations on board. A bit of missionary work if you like . I see no harm in broadening the fan base of the game. If the Celtic Unions were committed to the idea it could turn out to be a very worthwhile long-term project.

In Wales we should go back to the old club system and have franchises like rugby league do. Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Llanelli are already sorted for stadiums and facilities and then it would give other clubs an opportunity to bid for first class rugby

Steffan wrote:In Wales we should go back to the old club system and have franchises like rugby league do. Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Llanelli are already sorted for stadiums and facilities and then it would give other clubs an opportunity to bid for first class rugby

I wouldn't have thought the finances would stretch to it. Llanelli, Swansea and Neath went bust/got rescued and there were others close to it before we had the regions. I'd love to see a stronger Welsh Premiership but at the end of the day condensing our best into four teams has yielded 4 6N's and a RWC semi. If the Celtic regions prioritise the Pro 12 as a result of all this shenanigans then we will see the best players far more often at Dave, CAP, Liberty and PYS. That would help with crowds a great deal.

I honestly believe that with some tweaks and with all the best players regularly selected the PRO12 is a cracking competition. We have some very strong sides who will get better for the increased focus losing the HEC could bring. Even though we lost last weekend  I thought the Dragons v Scarlets was a very good game. I know we will lose players to the more lucrative leagues but as long as we keep churning talent out through the academies we'll have a competitive league. The SANZAR nations manage it. It's not all doom and gloom.

Munchkin wrote:Guys did you read the top of the OP? Have another look:

"Leaving aside all the talk of surrounding it and the political stuff, I thought I'd start a thread discussing possible alternatives only."

Not getting on my high horse, but it might be a nice break from the  on the other threads.

riiiight, so we're expected to read the snarky comments and just sit on our hands?

profitius wrote:Some good ideas coming on the thread. A lot of it will come down to money. Personally I like the idea of a second division based on one franchises for each developing country. So thats basically their international team with a few foreigners to help them out. You would also have the possibility of the Celts loaning them players.


Many English clubs are out of the PLR loop so they could jump at the chance of joining up.

I don't see how a second division would work, there wouldn't be enough money in it and certainly not enough fans. Can you honestly see fans coming from Romania, Georgia etc to watch the game in Wales etc?

A second division wouldn't work at the start. That's why it has to be built up by letting more teams into the main league. Say two Russian, two Georgian, and single teams from Spain, Portugal, Romania and Belgium. Ideally there would be three more from other Unions or additional teams from existing Unions.
Naturally the standard wouldn't be great at the start, but a league format would suit these teams much more than the mini league format of the current Amlin. Once international club rugby was established in these countries, support and money would grow enough to create two divisions with full home and away fixtures.
Unlike the French and English leagues that restrict themselves to their own countries the Rugby Sans Frontiers competition would be the only true Euro league unfettered in growth and therefore earning potential!

nathan wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Guys did you read the top of the OP? Have another look:

"Leaving aside all the talk of surrounding it and the political stuff, I thought I'd start a thread discussing possible alternatives only."

Not getting on my high horse, but it might be a nice break from the  on the other threads.

riiiight, so we're expected to read the snarky comments and just sit on our hands?

Nathan, you really don't have to do anything. Not even visit a thread that upsets you so much. I was only asking. Do as you please, Nathan  

So what do we have so far?

I would like to see 2 tiers of 12, with a play-off at the top (top four for cup), and a play-off between bottom 2 first tier, and top 2 2nd tier for promotion/relegation.
Ideally I think each union should have 2 teams minimum, although maybe not realistic at present.
We could have Russia, Georgia, Spain, and others in the 2nd tier, as Aukster pointed out, but are French regions out of the question?

Here is what they should do and what the FFR and RFU will possibly do given the Kerry Packer situation from in the past. Ultimately the Intl game is the lifeblood of the game and the SanZar unions have shown how this is the case.

1. Remain calm...
2. Retain the HC inviting the Premiership and Top14 teams to participate
3. If they don't then invite teams from the Rugby Championship and The next division in France (or any PRL and Top14 teams available)
4 Ultimately the PRL and Top14 will fail as they have no out. Fans will get bored of the fact that they are standalone in competitions that have little intl appeal.

Despite their bluster they need the RFU/FFR/IRB and HC more than we need them ultimately.

Would not pick the SANZAR as a good point as,IMHO, AUS is only kept going by the money it gets from the Super Rugby which largely comes from South Africa.
IIRC I have read of Several South Africans unhappy about the money leaving SA to fund the other Unions(now where have I heard that). Also isn't NZRU trying to sell part of their Super Rugby Franchises,turning them into privately run teams.

Will there really be no European Comp in someway shape or form, I really can't see that happening, remember the English sides didn't play in the first ever one but it still went ahead.

We may have two seperate comps but I still think there will be a European Comp someway somehow.

I agree with you. there still will be a European cup. It will be diminished without the PRL clubs but many english and french clubs will be very unhappy with the PRL / LNR when they have no competition to play in and the european cup remains a success with smaller English and French clubs and hopefully other european countries represented.

One, the clubs are the PRL. This is all being done because of the CC clubs not getting much money (from ERC). You could may be bring in the top clubs, as they're the one's who don't gain as much from the PRL. But they'll be tied in to a contract (I would think) so it would be that easy. The RFU would have to sign off on destroying their top league as well (unlikely).

I think when push comes to shove the RFU will stick to their guns and continue to co operate with the rest of the unions and refuse to sanction a breakaway. Its the PRLs actions that will damage the english league. We will see and the RFU are not renowned for having backbone but hopefully they find some. the PRL only represents a few clubs. 12 out of hundreds

Apologies from the off but I haven't read through all the posts as:-

1. I firmly believe there will be a Euro comp in some shape

and

2. A lot of the posts are very heated and emotional which leads (sometimes) to people losing the point of thread etc

But my main question is:-

Does the PRL control all the pro rugby in England or just the Premiership.

What I am getting at is if the PRL pull out the Prem sides could the ERC organisers invite (as has been mentioned) the likes of Cornish Pirates, London Welsh, Bristol etc etc likewise with the French sides to join their competition.

If so that is lilely to cause a huge rift in English rugby and the RFU.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Apologies from the off but I haven't read through all the posts as:-



But my main question is:-

Does the PRL control all the pro rugby in England or just the Premiership.

- they share control of the premiership clubs with the RFU, they have no say in the championship clubs I don't think ( unless relegated clubs are PRL members)

bedfordwelsh wrote:

What I am getting at is if the PRL pull out the Prem sides could the ERC organisers invite (as has been mentioned) the likes of Cornish Pirates, London Welsh, Bristol etc etc likewise with the French sides to join their competition.

If so that is lilely to cause a huge rift in English rugby and the RFU.

Yes they could. Its a possible even likely option I think

broadlandboy wrote:Would not pick the SANZAR as a good point as,IMHO, AUS is only kept going by the money it gets from the Super Rugby which largely comes from South Africa.
IIRC I have read of Several South Africans unhappy about the money leaving SA to fund the other Unions(now where have I heard that). Also isn't NZRU trying to sell part of their Super Rugby Franchises,turning them into privately run teams.

Isn't that precisely the point, bb? The South Africans may be unhappy about 'subsidising' rugby in Australia, but they're smart enough to recognise that they are better with it than without it - shame some others could not get on board with this magnanimous perspective

If there is no HC then the Welsh (and Irish) could fill 6 weekends with a Welsh regional championship. The Irish used to have an inter provincial championship. 3 home 3 away games in a 6 week block, all derbies.

Scotland could do the same I guess. We used to have 4 regional sides ( pre HC) and could probably cobble together two more sides from the best of the semi pro players / Edinburgh and Glasgow squad players not in the matchday squads.

TJ wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Apologies from the off but I haven't read through all the posts as:-



But my main question is:-

Does the PRL control all the pro rugby in England or just the Premiership.

- they share control of the premiership clubs with the RFU, they have no say in the championship clubs I don't think ( unless relegated clubs are PRL members)

bedfordwelsh wrote:

What I am getting at is if the PRL pull out the Prem sides could the ERC organisers invite (as has been mentioned) the likes of Cornish Pirates, London Welsh, Bristol etc etc likewise with the French sides to join their competition.

If so that is lilely to cause a huge rift in English rugby and the RFU.

Yes they could.  Its a possible even likely option I think

Cheers TJ, I thought as much but wasn't sure. It would I imagine cause a huge fuss though.

I think that is the case.

As,
IMHO the PRL do realise that Rabo teams help to make a better competition, hence why they are willing to share the money equally between participating teams. Unlike now when some teams get 3* as much as others for participating in Europe with assured entry into the top competition.

broadlandboy wrote:As,
IMHO the PRL do realise that Rabo teams help to make a better competition, hence why they are willing to share the money equally between participating teams. Unlike now when some teams get 3* as much as others for participating in Europe with assured entry into the top competition.

bb, then we get down to the niceties of bargaining - traditionally in any negotiation, both sides set out what they want, and then compromise until something that is acceptable to both is reached, which represents not quite what either party wanted at the start, but which they can live with. In this situation I see no such process taking part - one side had their head buried in the sand, but now seems up for compromise, the other has demonstrated no intention of compromising whatsoever?

broadlandboy - that is only because the RFU distribute the HC money to 12 not 6 teams. remember Glasgow and Edinburgh do not get all the HC money - it all goes into one pot the SRU control along with the 6N money and sponsorship money which is then used to support the scottish game at all levels.

A lot of people seem to think that there is only 1 European competition(which is understandable when their team has assured entry so don't have to worry about the other comp). The PRL divide the money between the teams playing in an European Competition run by the ERC( the HEC & Amlin) which is what they want to do for all teams

But only the HC brings in significant TV money.

broadlandboy wrote:A lot of people seem to think that there is only 1 European competition(which is understandable when their team has assured entry so don't have to worry about the other comp). The PRL divide the money between the teams playing in an European Competition run by the ERC( the HEC & Amlin) which is what they want to do for all teams

That's very nice of the Heino teams from the PRL to do that, and I'm sure that the Amlin teams from the PRL are suitably grateful - but run it by me again why the PRL should decide that it's right for everyone else to follow suit?

So much for the altruistic view of trying to help those less fortunate than others. So its a case of its ok for some to get an advantage but only if it is for them

To build European Rugby & not just have 6 Unions with 24 teams

It is not just simply altruistic as with interest from unions other than the 6 Nations grows more money should come as well

I think the HC is a far better vehicle to do this than the 6N,  also the autumn internationals could be used for this more.  I have been arguing for both routes to increase participation and spread the game. this is the route Italy have been using to improve and are now competative.

Infact I shall start a post on the international board to discuss this