Australia in India

First topic message reminder :

Srinivasan stays....puts his own men is the big event that will have it's impact on Indian and global cricket.
meanwhile Indian squad for the ODIs vs. Aus is announced.

the only noteworthy change is the return of Yuvraj....who will most likely play instead of Dinesh Kaarthik....who should have no complains at being dropped.
he blew so many chances of establishing himself as an India regular......his international career is over  from what I can see.
Yadav is not in the squad...I hope he has not picked an injury....and it's a case of preserving him for test matches.....whihc would be a wise move.
Shami ahmed should be the first choice 3rd seamer in that case


Squad: MS Dhoni (capt), Shikhar Dhawan, Rohit Sharma, Virat Kohli, Yuvraj Singh, Suresh Raina, Ravindra Jadeja, R Ashwin, Bhuvneshwar Kumar, Ishant Sharma, Vinay Kumar, Amit Mishra, Ambati Rayudu, Mohammed Shami, Jaydev Unadkat

Australia 14 without loss after 6 overs.

33-0 from 7.5 overs

India's gentle medium pacers are looking like giving away 300 runs on a flat pitch...unless spinners pull it back

Should be 300 at least.

Though it won't necessarily be enough ...

Australia 133-2 after 24 over. Finch and Hughes put together a 110 run opening partnership, then Ravindra Jadeja got Hughes for 47, (he was earlier dropped by Kholi of Ishant when on 32 and the Australian score on 53) and then Yuvraj Singh got Shane Watson to hold out in the deep for 2, Jadeja involved again, this time with the catch.

Australia 165-3 after 30 overs.

aus has lost wickets too frequently and may not have enough wickets in hands for the last 5 over charge...neverthles 300 may be the min from here 214-5 in 38 overs

slower bowlers all did a good job.....but seamers got badly whacked.......no speed , reverse or yoorkers....length balling at 130kph just sits up asking to be hit off front or back foot , throuhg the line...off side / leg side........just doesn't bother any of these good limited over Aussie batters

177 in 24 overs from seamers.....and only 125 odd in 26 slow overs...whihc begst the question why Yuv didn't complete his 10 overs and why Rain was given a few.

Dhoni could have pulled 20 runs back....lezt's see how India go about their chase.

to me the diffrence in quality of seam bowling stands out...the 135 to 155kph Aussie bowlers are by the use of pace and hit the deck harder are getting more oiut of the pitch..than the 130 kph indian medoum pacers.

In this form in India...dhoni doesn't even look at using seamers as an attacking option

Rohit's stroke play is good...actually as good as any in international cricket....but his feet movement is still not convincing....he gets away because the format field placement doesn't test him as much as a test match fielding would.

If he simply moves his left foot forward further towards the line of ball.....he would be a much tighter batsman

^and a little after i wrote....Rhot goes....flirting outside the off stump

Rohit did nothing today to convince me today. He just couldn't rotate the strike early in the innings, and Dhawan was kept away from strike for longish periods, and I believe that eventually led to his downfall. I was watching on TV with a few friends and they all noted that and we all predicted that Dhawan would soon get out as he was starved off the strike a bit too much. Then Rohit got going with a few boundaries, got to 40 and then duely got out. The only good thing was that he played only 47 balls to get to 42.

Now Raina goes after doing a bit of rebuilding with Kohli, India 138-3. Yuvraj joins Kohli.

Yuvraj gets off the mark with a 2nd ball 6.
India 144-3 after 28 overs. Another 161 runs to with 22 overs and 8 wickets remaining.

As Yuvraj is new to the wicket, Bailey brings Johnson back on to try and test Yuvraj with some pace and some short stuff.

And Johnson gets Yuvraj. India in trouble at 147-4 after 29. Good bowling change there from Bailey.

The captain joins his deputy to try and salvage the situation for their side.

Kohli reaches 50.

msp...rohit batted as well as anyone has give the pitch has some bounce and movement and give the superiority of aussie pace attack.
 
His limitations as I stated about feet movement are well documented but they must be seen in conjunction with his strength......brilliant strokes and now a much more patient temperament.
 
the problem is India picked up trundlers.....didn't use the semaers to attack...and conceded runs that are about 20 to 30 too manxy for the pitch

yuvraj....inspite of the brillant hitting the other day...still shows me what I have suspected since he returned against pace and sharp bounce...his eye is gone a bit...just not the same reflexes as her had before the cancer

India 164-4 after 34 overs. Needing another 141 runs of 96 balls. Getting rather difficult with 4 wickets already down.

KP_fan wrote:msp...rohit batted as well as anyone has give the pitch has some bounce and movement and give the superiority of aussie pace attack.

His limitations as I stated about feet movement are well documented but they must be seen in conjunction with his strength......brilliant strokes and now a much more patient temperament.

the problem is India picked up trundlers.....didn't use the semaers to attack...and conceded runs that are about 2 to 30 too manxy for the pitch

KPF, Rohit did indeed play some delightful shots, I have no complaints there.
But again, he failed to get enough singles in the early overs, and more importantly, ones he was set, failed to go on to score a substantive knock. A score of 42 from the opener is job well done for a T-20I opener, but it is a wasted start in ODIs.

Australia in complete control as Kohli goes. Watson gets the big wicket. This game is fast slipping away from India. India 167-5 after 35 overs.

msp83 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:msp...rohit batted as well as anyone has give the pitch has some bounce and movement and give the superiority of aussie pace attack.

His limitations as I stated about feet movement are well documented but they must be seen in conjunction with his strength......brilliant strokes and now a much more patient temperament.

the problem is India picked up trundlers.....didn't use the semaers to attack...and conceded runs that are about 2 to 30 too manxy for the pitch

KPF, Rohit did indeed play some delightful shots, I have no complaints there.
But again, he failed to get enough singles in the early overs, and more importantly, ones he was set, failed to go on to score a substantive knock. A score of 42 from the opener is job well done for a T-20I opener, but it is a wasted start in ODIs.

yes he is a package.....with hsi strengths and weaknesses identified commonly by both of us.

I am giving him about 50 marks out of 100....and as a package and you seem to sound like giving him only 20 marks:doh: 

198-7

aussie attack already looking better without Fawad Ahmed!

Australia winning it hands down, The 2 kumars, Bhuvneshwar and Vinay, are trying to cut down the margin. India 223-8 in the 47th over.

KP_fan wrote:

msp83 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:msp...rohit batted as well as anyone has give the pitch has some bounce and movement and give the superiority of aussie pace attack.

His limitations as I stated about feet movement are well documented but they must be seen in conjunction with his strength......brilliant strokes and now a much more patient temperament.

the problem is India picked up trundlers.....didn't use the semaers to attack...and conceded runs that are about 2 to 30 too manxy for the pitch

KPF, Rohit did indeed play some delightful shots, I have no complaints there.
But again, he failed to get enough singles in the early overs, and more importantly, ones he was set, failed to go on to score a substantive knock. A score of 42 from the opener is job well done for a T-20I opener, but it is a wasted start in ODIs.

yes he is a package.....with hsi strengths and weaknesses identified commonly by both of us.

I am giving him about 50 marks out of 100....and as a package and you seem to sound like giving him only 20 marks:doh: 

He's an average batsman who can play some delightful shots, and as an opener, he has just about managed not to disgrace the selectors and everyone else who keep backing him despite 7 years of accumulated international failure. Perhaps that should get him 30 out of 100.
At least this year he has consistently got some starts, we've tolerated him for 7 years now, perhaps he should be given some more time to prove himself a batsman of international quality and substance.

A 72 run comfortable win for Australia as India are bowled out for 232 in the final over.

Pretty much Australia's modus operandi in recent times in ODIs. Bat first, get runs on the board, use Johnson to attack early doors alongside the reliable McKay, use Faulkner at key times and rely then on the variety of McKay, Faulkner and Watson with the pace of Johnson in the middle and late overs.

Didn't watch the Australian innings but given the scores it is indeed surprising we didn't see a bit more spin. Yuvraj 2-34 from 6 overs probably could have bowled some more and maybe a bit of Raina.

Raina was guilty of a pretty poor shot when well set, and I remain unconvinced he is a top 4 player in ODIs. Seems more suited to a 5 or 6, maybe Pujara should be considered for a slot near the top of the order, or even Rahane given another shot.

Whilst Sharma's inability to rotate the strike may have played a part in Dhawan's dismissal IMO that reflects more on Dhawan than Sharma. As an international cricketer you should be able to play according to the situation and not play a poor shot because you've been starved of the strike. Sharma has looked quite good at the top of the order so far, and deserves an extended run. He is a good stroke player and naturally suited to that role.

Bailey's captaincy was a lot more coherent than in the T20: bowling changes and field settings pretty much spot on.

Australia's ground fielding was outstanding also. Maxwell is so so good.

msp83 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:msp...rohit batted as well as anyone has give the pitch has some bounce and movement and give the superiority of aussie pace attack.

His limitations as I stated about feet movement are well documented but they must be seen in conjunction with his strength......brilliant strokes and now a much more patient temperament.

the problem is India picked up trundlers.....didn't use the semaers to attack...and conceded runs that are about 2 to 30 too manxy for the pitch

KPF, Rohit did indeed play some delightful shots, I have no complaints there.
But again, he failed to get enough singles in the early overs, and more importantly, ones he was set, failed to go on to score a substantive knock. A score of 42 from the opener is job well done for a T-20I opener, but it is a wasted start in ODIs.

The same could be said about Raina, who played an AWFUL shot to get out at a crucial juncture. Not sure I fathom how he is batting ahead of Yuvi and MSD.

Agree with Mike on Rohit apart from the ridiculous comment on Dhawan's temperament. He's had one bad game FFS.

Agree about Raina too. Not sure he's a batsman I'd want at the wicket with more than 15 overs to go. Doesn't have the ability or temperament to build a proper innings. He's at his best for a death overs slog.

ShankyCricket wrote:Agree with Mike on Rohit apart from the ridiculous comment on Dhawan's temperament. He's had one bad game FFS.

Don't think I made any comment about his temperament. Just said he had only himself to blame for his dismissal today, in the more general context that blaming the other batsman for his dismissal is pushing things a bit far. He is clearly a quality young player.

ShankyCricket wrote:Agree about Raina too. Not sure he's a batsman I'd want at the wicket with more than 15 overs to go. Doesn't have the ability or temperament to build a proper innings. He's at his best for a death overs slog.

Agreed. Whether Yuvraj can bat at 4 is another matter, but if not they're probably competing for 1 spot as things stand.

Yuvraj has had a lot of success batting at 4 in India. So in the context of this series, I would say yes, he can bat at 4. But in terms of the larger picture, ie the WC in Aus in 2015, whether he can bat at 4 in those conditions, I'm not so sure and 5 would arguably suit him better.
Would probably have Rahane, Pujara or Rayudu at 4 with Yuvraj at 5 myself. But now that they've gone in with Raina at 4, only fair to give him the rest of the series I'd say to adapt to this new position. If he doesn't deliver, then time for one of the aforementioned trio (Rayudu, Rahane, Pujara) to come in at 4 with Yuvraj and Raina competing for the No.5 slot, for which I'd definitely prefer Yuvi unless he has an absolute horror in this series.

Mike Selig wrote:

ShankyCricket wrote:Agree with Mike on Rohit apart from the ridiculous comment on Dhawan's temperament. He's had one bad game FFS.

Don't think I made any comment about his temperament. Just said he had only himself to blame for his dismissal today, in the more general context that blaming the other batsman for his dismissal is pushing things a bit far. He is clearly a quality young player.

Please accept my apologies. I completely misinterpreted that comment of yourr. Agree with you on the general point. Rohit Sharma, in particular, is a very popular target for Indian fans, especially Msp. Not a single comment about Raina's brainless shot but Rohit is castigated for putting even a foot wrong.

No apology necessary Shanky I can assure you.

Agree pretty much entirely with your post above regarding numbers 4 and 5.

ShankyCricket wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:

ShankyCricket wrote:Agree with Mike on Rohit apart from the ridiculous comment on Dhawan's temperament. He's had one bad game FFS.

Don't think I made any comment about his temperament. Just said he had only himself to blame for his dismissal today, in the more general context that blaming the other batsman for his dismissal is pushing things a bit far. He is clearly a quality young player.

Please accept my apologies. I completely misinterpreted that comment of yourr. Agree with you on the general point. Rohit Sharma, in particular, is a very popular target for Indian fans, especially Msp. Not a single comment about Raina's brainless shot but Rohit is castigated for putting even a foot wrong.

Shanky, if Rohit is criticized, then it is entirely deserved, and if anything, he tends to get away with it a bit through some pleasing shots. Rohit has largely been an international failure for 7 years. People say he's so talented and even he edges gracefully. But talent is meaningful when it produces substance, a task in which Rohit has largely failed. It is not this game, its 7 years of wasted potential that we are talking about. Rohit has started earning the next game at least more consistently on the bases of performance rather than so called potential this year. But even then, he hasn't put together a sting of substantial scores as ODI opener and usually batted at a slow strike rate.
Raina on the other hand has been a useful ODI package. He has been a match winner in Indian conditions more often than note, played many good finishing hands as well as other substantial ODI scores over the years, and though he hasn't been as effective away from home, has largely earned his chances through performance rather than potential. There is no comparison between the 2.

Agree with Mike and Shanky on Raina not being suited for a top 4 ODI position. Think Yuvraj has to bat 4, and Raina at 5. Raina is better in the latter part of the innings.

If Pujara is to play, it has to be at the top. If Rohit doesn't deliver consistent performances of substance, then bring Pujara at the top, and if Raina's position needs to be looked into, then look at Abhishek Nayar as an alternative.

Yuvraj.....has an issue with building innings and reflexes...especially at the quick and short stuff directed at his body.
 
If I am right.....he will be found out game after game during this series.
 
when planning for the next world cup in Aus......technically more sound batsmen have to be in the frame.....Rahane & Pujara ( who can both open also in limited overs ) and of the two Rahane has had reasonable success also.
 
To me more than Rohit..... Yuvraj's position is under scanner.....and therefater Rohit is also under scanner.....but he will survive because he is delivering 30s and 40s and good opening starts when Dhawan gets going at the other end PLUS he is a captain's favourite.

Raina in conditions allowing even slightest support to seam bowlers is best at 5 and Dhoni at 6.

I'll reserve judgment on Yuvraj for now. He has had issues with real quick bowling and good quality spin throughout the career, yet he has largely delivered. The fitness and intensity are certainly back, and he looked in fine touch in the T-20I game as well as the domestic games he played. There would be the early dismissal to quality short-pitched bowling and good spin from time to time, but if he can play near his best, he walks into the side, none of the players sitting out area better, not Rahana, not Rayudu, certainly not Karthik and not even Pujara. The likes of Pujara certainly have a better technique, but the overall impact that Yuvraj has is a lot more, and oh yes, he can bowl as well.
But as KPF said, if his reflexes have considerably slowed down, then it is another matter. His pre-series performances didn't suggest that though, so the judgment has to be held back.

Agree with msp on Yuvraj. I won't drop him for sure but tend to agree with Mike that like Raina, he too is better suited down the order. Personally, I'd drop Raina and pick a proper batsman (Rayudu, Rahane or Pujara, not Nayar) at 4 and leave the rest of the lineup. By the time the WC comes around, even Baba Aparajith may be an outside bet for that number 4 slot. Not saying Rohit's place is certain either and he'll face competition from Pujara, Rahane and even Gambhir but I'd definitely have him ahead of Raina in Australian conditions.

ShankyCricket wrote: Personally, I'd drop Raina and pick a proper batsman (Rayudu, Rahane or Pujara, not Nayar) at 4 and leave the rest of the lineup. .

raina is invaluable as a finisher........last 10 to 15 overs the impact that he can make........probably a few in the world can...leave aside Indian team.

The problem with many such finishers is that they struggle to fructify when given an innings building / longer format roles....as we say from Bevan, Jadeja and now Raina whenever given a chance at the top of the order in ODis or tests

I've already stated my reservations on Raina outside Asia, esp Australia. I'd much rather have Yuvi and MSD in the finishing role at 5 and 6 and Raina can't bat 4.

I've always found the statement "x struggles against genuine fast bowling or quality spin" reasonably amusing - after all almost everyone struggles against very fast bowling or real quality spin, that's kind of the definition of "very fast" or "real quality" isn't it? I guess the statement really means "more than most" but I'm not sure that's particularly true of Yuvraj against spin, I think he plays spin ok, probably as well as most middle order players around the world just not as well as most Indians.

In any case Yuvraj deserves at least a chance to fail, as probably does Raina at 4. With respect to their relative merits at 5, Yuvraj's bowling is obviously a plus (and his bowling was crucial in India winning the WC in 2011 let's not forget), and I suspect he is marginally more flexible. Both can obviously hit a massive ball, and Raina is probably marginally the better fielder (although Yuvraj looked quite sharp yesterday).

I would like to see India find room for Pujara in their side because he is a quality player. How would he slot in at 4? I'd more see him as a top 3 in ODIs (although Kohli could easily switch to 4, but I like Kohli at 3 also).

Kohli has been superb at 3 though he can certainly play at 4. If Pujara is to come in, it has to be in place of Rohit Sharma.
If Abhishek Nayar continues his good form, then he certainly is worth a go, depending on how Raina and Yuvraj goes.

Rohit, Raina...ain't going anywhere in ODIs.....the captain loves them...and he is going no-where

if at all anything Rohit might play tests and captain will try his best to squeeze raina in the test side or atleast the squad......on strange justifications as we have heard form him...such as " we need a left hander"
OR
"Raina is needed as an allrounder with his offspin bolwing "

http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-australia-2013-14/content/video_audio/679383.html
Interesting press meet there from Dhoni. He has hinted that the team management is looking at batting Raina at 4 for some time. Dhoni said that if on form, Yuvraj Singh, who has batted at 4 in the past with success might bat in that position again, perhaps for the 2015 WC. But if things do not go to plan with Yuvi, then they are looking at Raina to be the replacement option. Rohit Sharma has done just about OK at the top and Dhawan has established himself. Kohli is the best number 3 ODI batsman in the world at the moment, Raina is good at 5 or 6, as is Dhoni, and Jadeja can come in at 7. But they do have a bit of a problem at 4. Rohit is a proven middle order liability, and Dinesh Karthik too isn't really up to the job in international cricket. Pujara and Rahane look like more top order replacement options So there is a bit of logic to giving Raina a chance at 4 for now.

very assured talk by Dhoni.....
he knows what he wants.......and knows what he is experimenting with....not that I agree with all.....but follwing is the summary:
 
1) That the top 3 are firm in the minds of the management
2) That India will play 5 bowlers with jadeja the 5th bowler cum allrounder
3) That management considers Yuvi as the only one who may or may  not make the cut till the world cup....and if that's the case than Raina is the one they are grooming for now for No.4...as clearly they have ample of trust in him ( as I stated before)
 
4) if they do discard Yuv after this series .....and since his replacement is not known, then raina can take pivotal No.4
If Yuv survives then obviously he goes to No.4 in the world cup.

and here also management seems to be making the same observation that I did earlier....that jury is out on Yuvraj..they will give him 7 games and then eitehr book him in for the world cup.....or move-on from him.