Scotland XV for Autumn Internationals

First topic message reminder :

Right let's get down to business shall we?!

9/11/13
Scotland vs Japan
KO - 2.30pm

17/11/13
Scotland vs South Africa
KO - 3pm

23/11/13
Scotland vs Australia
KO - 6pm

First of all, the schedule for these three matches is super. Unlike last few years, Scotland will play a less formidable team first before two tough matches against SA and Aus. SA are on a roll at the moment and will be a good, stern test for Scotland before Australia. Injuries may be an issue however as we saw in the summer.

If Scotland beat Australia that will make it 3 wins in a row vs the Wallabies which would be a fantastic achievement. But obviously wins over any of these three teams will be great.

Players

Backs M Bennett (Glasgow), C Cusiter (Glasgow), De Luca (Edinburgh), A Dunbar (Glasgow), M Evans (Castres), T Heathcote (Bath), R Jackson (Glasgow), S Lamont (Glasgow), G Laidlaw (Edinburgh), S Maitland (Glasgow), H Pyrgos (Glasgow), M Scott (Edinburgh), T Seymour (Glasgow), D Taylor (Saracens), G Tonks (Edinburgh), T Visser (Edinburgh), D Weir (Glasgow).
Forwards J Barclay (Scarlets), J Beattie (Montpellier), K Brown (Saracens), B Cowan (London Irish), G Cross (Edinburgh), D Denton (Edinburgh), A Dickinson (Edinburgh), R Ford (Edinburgh), C Fusaro (Glasgow), G Gilchrist (Edinburgh) R Grant (Glasgow), J Gray (Glasgow), R Gray (Castres), J Hamilton (Montpellier), R Harley (Glasgow), A Kellock (Glasgow), S Lawson (Newcastle), K Low (London Irish), M Low (Glasgow), P MacArthur (Glasgow), E Murray (Worcester), A Strokosch (Perpignan), T Swinson (Glasgow), J Welsh (Glasgow)

*Sorry for not updating this sooner. My girlfriend and I broke up a few weeks ago after four and a half years, three living together. I've been in a pretty bad place. However, I'm getting better and looking forward to these games so I'll continue to contribute when I can

The thing I’m getting at, is if the casual fan, pundit and poster on here can see his weaknesses you can bet heavily the guys who watch rugby videos to identify weaknesses in their opponents will see it too.

Expect the likes of North, Fofana, Pieterson, Wade, Bowe et al to expose Visser at some point over the next few months.

I like Visser as a player, he is a potent weapon and a lethal finisher. But let’s not forget that Hogg, Maitland and Scott did a lot of the work for the tries we scored last season. Visser finished a lot but all the magic came from everyone else.

RuggerRadge2611

I tend to agree with you. A couple of years ago Laidlaw was getting flack for being a revolving door and has improved that part of his game hugely since. Mossy could tackle and look at the size of him.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The thing I’m getting at, is if the casual fan, pundit and poster on here can see his weaknesses you can bet heavily the guys who watch rugby videos to identify weaknesses in their opponents will see it too.

Expect the likes of North, Fofana, Pieterson, Wade, Bowe et al to expose Visser at some point over the next few months.

I like Visser as a player, he is a potent weapon and a lethal finisher. But let’s not forget that Hogg, Maitland and Scott did a lot of the work for the tries we scored last season. Visser finished a lot but all the magic came from everyone else.

I think this is the key point - I have no doubt that he will be picked against Japan and will no doubt trundle in a couple of tries, much to eveyone's (my own included) delight. But Japan are unlikely, with all due respect, to challenge him much with ball in hand or with kicks in behind - but wait till we move on to the Boks and the Wallabies - Folau will have him for breakfast, and Folau/North are the sorts of player that Visser should be aiming to become

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Tell you what, we're in a pretty good position if we can count left wing as a position of weakness, if we've only got the Celtic league top try scorer for the last 3 seasons!

I quite agree. I remember the days of James McLaren and Andy Henderson wearing the 11 jersey. Believe me, Tim Visser is a massive step up, and Sean Lamont is hardly a bad back-up player!

Our weakest position is tighthead, closely followed by stand-off. We have options in both, but are short of consistent class and depth in either position. The current starters (in my opinion) are Jon Welsh and Rhuriadh Jackson. Our 6 Nations competitors have far better players starting in those positions (excluding Italy at stand-off).

You MFLs won't like it, but I'd play Lamont ahead of Visser right now.  OK, MacVisser is a superb finisher, but I swear his defence is actually getting worse, not better - he was appalling in D against Perpignan.  I'd be tempted to take him to one-side and have him schooled one-on-one in a defence masterclass, and put him on a diet of harden-the-feic-up.  If he scores two and let's two tries in, then he's not much use tbh

Good old ASBO. You can always count on ASBO to select a Glasgow player who has barely done anything this season ahead of an Edinburgh player who is scoring tries regularly. Visser may be a dreadful defensive player, but I'd be equally worried about Lamont's lack of pace against those Aussie and South African backs, most of whom can jog faster than Lamont can sprint these days.

That said, we may need Lamont's tackling in the event Bennett soils himself against Jean De Villiers......

TJ wrote:RuggerRadge2611

I tend to agree with you. A couple of years ago Laidlaw was getting flack for being a revolving door and has improved that part of his game hugely since. Mossy could tackle and look at the size of him.

Laidlaw or Mossy, never lacked courage. Their weakness was size.

I would have a lot more sympathy for Visser if he wasn't such an intimidating presence.

I'm not saying drop Visser either, I do think he is a potent weapon that Scotland really can't afford to leave in the stands. I'm just really worried that he is going to be a target at this level now.

The thing that frustrates me the most is if he got his mind right, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say he is probably the most gifted athlete (Gray Jr and Snr aside) in that whole Scotland squad.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Tell you what, we're in a pretty good position if we can count left wing as a position of weakness, if we've only got the Celtic league top try scorer for the last 3 seasons!

I quite agree. I remember the days of James McLaren and Andy Henderson wearing the 11 jersey. Believe me, Tim Visser is a massive step up, and Sean Lamont is hardly a bad back-up player!

Our weakest position is tighthead, closely followed by stand-off. We have options in both, but are short of consistent class and depth in either position. The current starters (in my opinion) are Jon Welsh and Rhuriadh Jackson. Our 6 Nations competitors have far better players starting in those positions (excluding Italy at stand-off).

You MFLs won't like it, but I'd play Lamont ahead of Visser right now.  OK, MacVisser is a superb finisher, but I swear his defence is actually getting worse, not better - he was appalling in D against Perpignan.  I'd be tempted to take him to one-side and have him schooled one-on-one in a defence masterclass, and put him on a diet of harden-the-feic-up.  If he scores two and let's two tries in, then he's not much use tbh

Good old ASBO. You can always count on ASBO to select a Glasgow player who has barely done anything this season ahead of an Edinburgh player who is scoring tries regularly. Visser may be a dreadful defensive player, but I'd be equally worried about Lamont's lack of pace against those Aussie and South African backs, most of whom can jog faster than Lamont can sprint these days.

That said, we may need Lamont's tackling in the event Bennett soils himself against Jean De Villiers......

 

Lamont's been picked at 12 for Glasgow vs Munster.

Ruggerradge - last time I remember North and Visser facing off Visser came well out on top -even stripping him of the ball. Visser got past North, north could not get past Visser.

Maybe we could tell Visser that if he misses a tackle Harley will bite him?

Captain_Sensible wrote:Lamont's been picked at 12 for Glasgow vs Munster.

Oh well. Deck chairs for the Glasgow wingers then.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Captain_Sensible wrote:Lamont's been picked at 12 for Glasgow vs Munster.

Oh well. Deck chairs for the Glasgow wingers then.

 

What is the point in that?

Matt Scott (the guy that plays 12) and Denton back for Edinburgh, glad to see their injuries aren’t long anything serious.

Got a fairly lonely match thread going on for it – feel free to join us! 

I'm sorry, but tries score you points.


Tackles don't.


Visser in

Perhaps we could have Vernon on the wing instead. Good tackler, and could bring his forward attributes to the backline.

Given that we don't want try scorers on the wing, heaven forbid, and he's comfortably quicker than Sean Lamont, it makes perfect sense.

 

Ickle Jonny on the wing? He has the pace

funnyExiledScot wrote:Perhaps we could have Vernon on the wing instead. Good tackler, and could bring his forward attributes to the backline.

Given that we don't want try scorers on the wing, heaven forbid, and he's comfortably quicker than Sean Lamont, it makes perfect sense.

 

Hilarious - dare to criticise an MFL player and poor old fES has a complete coniption!!  

How about Visser with Lamont hiding behind - I am sure we can get away with the

16 on a pitch seems quite common..

Riskysports wrote:How about Visser with Lamont hiding behind - I am sure we can get away with the

16 on a pitch seems quite common..

I'm sure with the clever use of blood capsules we could contrive to have Visser on the pitch when we have the ball, and S Lamont on the pitch when we need to defend. I'll bet no-one has thought of that.....

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Perhaps we could have Vernon on the wing instead. Good tackler, and could bring his forward attributes to the backline.

Given that we don't want try scorers on the wing, heaven forbid, and he's comfortably quicker than Sean Lamont, it makes perfect sense.

 

Hilarious - dare to criticise an MFL player and poor old fES has a complete coniption!!  

Conniption.

Visser's defence is pathetic. No disputing that.

To add another point, had Hogg been fit to play 15, and Seymour and Maitland available for the wing slots, then I'd see a strong case for dropping Visser. However I really don't see S Lamont as a credible alternative to Visser. The difference in pace and attacking capabilities is just too big, regardless of Lamont's tackling capabilities. You also have to consider Lamont's lack of pace in a defensive context as well.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Radge, have you been able to watch many of the Edinburgh games this year? He genuinely hasn’t been that bad (kick chase aside). There’s no chance in hell I’d play him in the centre though!

Do you not agree that a guy of his size and athletic ability should strike fear into the hearts of the opposition?

There is a difference betwen "not being that bad" and not doing what he is capable of. Laidlaw is about a foot shorter and 6st lighter and he puts in a better shift without the ball than Visser!

I'm not sure I agree Radge. Laidlaw has been culpable for more tries than Visser IMHO. I realise he defends a far busier channel, but opposition teams targeted Laidlaw when he was playing 10 and I'm sure they still target him now he's playing 9. We can't escape the fact that he's pretty small. Laidlaw has his blindingly obvious strengths, but defence isn't one of them, so to compare him with Visser doesn't work. I agree that Visser could do with displaying a bit of Laidlaw's commitment and nous but like RDW says Visser's defence is improving and it will only get better under Omar.

nickj - Laidlaw is much improved this season. Against Munster made 5 tackles missed none, against perpignon 4/2. Also stripped the number 8 a few times and brought forwards down. I think he realised / was told it was an issue and now tackles much better. Its been really noticable the improvement. Going low and hanging on.

nickj wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Radge, have you been able to watch many of the Edinburgh games this year? He genuinely hasn’t been that bad (kick chase aside). There’s no chance in hell I’d play him in the centre though!

Do you not agree that a guy of his size and athletic ability should strike fear into the hearts of the opposition?

There is a difference betwen "not being that bad" and not doing what he is capable of. Laidlaw is about a foot shorter and 6st lighter and he puts in a better shift without the ball than Visser!

I'm not sure I agree Radge. Laidlaw has been culpable for more tries than Visser IMHO. I realise he defends a far busier channel, but opposition teams targeted Laidlaw when he was playing 10 and I'm sure they still target him now he's playing 9. We can't escape the fact that he's pretty small. Laidlaw has his blindingly obvious strengths, but defence isn't one of them, so to compare him with Visser doesn't work. I agree that Visser could do with displaying a bit of Laidlaw's commitment and nous but like RDW says Visser's defence is improving and it will only get better under Omar.

You can easily compare their guts though. Laidlaw is Fearless but small, whilst Visser is monstrous but a coward.

TJ wrote:nickj - Laidlaw is much improved this season.  Against Munster made 5 tackles missed none, against perpignon 4/2.  Also stripped the number 8 a few times and brought forwards down.  I think he realised / was told it was an issue and now tackles much better.  Its been really noticable the improvement.  Going low and hanging on.

I'm not sure that statistic lends weight to your argument!

The difference is that when Laidlaw has "missed" a tackle, it's usually because the opposition player is a large forward and bounced him. It's never down to a lack of stones. Visser on the other hand is perfectly capable of taking down any player, he just isn't a particularly brave player and if he can avoid putting in a tackle without too much shame then he'll usually do so. Hopefully Omar will subject him to more scrutiny. I'd like to see a tally of tries vs missed tackles. If the latter exceeds the former come the end of the season then I'll being calling for Lee Jones!!

I seem to remember Lee Jones putting in some excellent tackles against Toulouse a couple years back...

If his weakness is as a ball carrier, but is comfortable putting in the big hits, perhaps Edinburgh could try him at 6. I hear they're weak there?

nickj - you been watching Edinburgh play?  Laidlaw is unrecognisable as a tackler from last year. I suspect those missed tackles are actually when he hsas been desperately chasing someone that should have been got by someone else. You get a stat of a missed tackle for getting close to someone wheras if you don't get close even it does not count. I cannot remember him being bounced. I can remember him bringing down forwards several times

IanBru wrote:I seem to remember Lee Jones putting in some excellent tackles against Toulouse a couple years back...

If his weakness is as a ball carrier, catching, passing, running, breathing, but is comfortable putting in the big hits, perhaps Edinburgh could try him at 6. I hear they're weak there?

Added a few there...

IanBru wrote:I seem to remember Lee Jones putting in some excellent tackles against Toulouse a couple years back...

If his weakness is as a ball carrier, but is comfortable putting in the big hits, perhaps Edinburgh could try him at 6. I hear they're weak there?

Not so much these days. Happy with Basilia and Du Preez as options at 6.

But I take your point, I think we'd all pay good money to watch Lee Jones play flanker.

TJ wrote:nickj - you been watching Edinburgh play?  Laidlaw is unrecognisable as a tackler from last year.  I suspect those missed tackles are actually when he hsas been desperately chasing someone that should have been got by someone else.  You get a stat of a missed tackle for getting close to someone wheras if you don't get close even it does not count.  I cannot remember him being bounced.  I can remember him bringing down forwards several times

It's true. Kenny Logan never missed a tackle in his life!!

This isn't about missing tackles, this is about Visser being such a wuss as to not even attempt the tackle in the first place.

He'll convieniently position himself where he is either wrong footed or nowhere near.

He has turned being in the right place at the right time into a glorious art form for both attacking and defending. It's a +ive in the attack sense but a big -ive in the defending sense.

So let's get this straight, as I don't think it has been mentioned enough on here yet:

Matt Scott is a 12

Visser is a wuss

Is that correct? Not sure it's been said enough...

Want me to say it again?

On another note Ford seems to have imprpved his lineout darts. He no longer throws the ball into the line like a 10 thumbed man wearing mittens.

It'll be a tight call IMO in the Ford/MacArthur debate.

RDW_Scotland wrote:So let's get this straight, as I don't think it has been mentioned enough on here yet:

Matt Scott is a 12

Visser is a wuss

Is that correct? Not sure it's been said enough...

+1

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:It'll be a tight call IMO in the Ford/MacArthur debate.

Not so much a debate. If you support Wales Glasgow then MacArthur is the player Sean Fitzpatrick wanted to be, and if you support Edinburgh, then you'll probably have a deep understanding of rugby, expertly analyse the pros and cons of both players being as objective as possible, and ultimately conclude that it doesn't matter as long as Dougie Hall doesn't get anywhere near the jersey.....

Easy FES, easy.

If it were up to me, (you, at the back, stop sniggering), Hall would be in the Scotland squad.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Want me to say it again?

On another note Ford seems to have imprpved his lineout darts. He no longer throws the ball into the line like a 10 thumbed man wearing mittens.

It'll be a tight call IMO in the Ford/MacArthur debate.

Unfortunatly Ford seems not to be able to hook a ball so straight put ins bamboozle him

also on ford - lookalikey

a hobbit


Ross Ford

IanBru wrote:Easy FES, easy.

If it were up to me, (you, at the back, stop sniggering), Hall would be in the Scotland squad.

I guess if it were a 41 strong squad and you wanted 5 hookers......

I actually don't know why I dislike Dougie Hall so much. He actually seems to play quite well these days. I think it was his general non-contribution in the Hadden era that still bothers me, when he seems to turn up, not carry, not tackle, not scrummage and throw badly, leaving the question open as to what he was actually for....

In a Glasgow jersey these days he seems more useful, so perhaps he is worth having around. Ross Ford has certainly under-performed for long enough, so I've no real issue with MacArthur getting his chance. He's busy in defence and his throwing is the least bad. Slightly underpowered in the tight would be my only concern.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

IanBru wrote:Easy FES, easy.

If it were up to me, (you, at the back, stop sniggering), Hall would be in the Scotland squad.

I guess if it were a 41 strong squad and you wanted 5 hookers......

I actually don't know why I dislike Dougie Hall so much. He actually seems to play quite well these days. I think it was his general non-contribution in the Hadden era that still bothers me, when he seems to turn up, not carry, not tackle, not scrummage and throw badly, leaving the question open as to what he was actually for....

In a Glasgow jersey these days he seems more useful, so perhaps he is worth having around. Ross Ford has certainly under-performed for long enough, so I've no real issue with MacArthur getting his chance. He's busy in defence and his throwing is the least bad. Slightly underpowered in the tight would be my only concern.

It's like MacVisser minus the try-scoring, fES

Yeh, nothing worse than a winger who just scores tries and nothing else. Who does he think he is??

Visser - 12 caps - 6 tries
Seymour - 2 caps - 0 tries
Maitland - 5 caps - 1 try (but he's playing full back)
SLamont - 79 caps - 11 tries
Jones - 4 caps - 1 try
Goblin - 35 caps - 3 tries

Visser starts. We haven't got the luxury of being sniffy about his defence.

Quite right - although those stats would suggest that Lee Jones is a better finisher than Sean Maitland......perhaps Bradley was right afterall....

funnyExiledScot wrote:Quite right - although those stats would suggest that Lee Jones is a better finisher than Sean Maitland......perhaps Bradley was right afterall....

Steady, fES, no individual opinions allowed on this thread and certainly no criticizing any MFL players

Captain?  Laidlaw or Brown?  laidlaw is certain of his place but brown is a better more inspirational captain????? I suspect its a year too Early for  

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Quite right - although those stats would suggest that Lee Jones is a better finisher than Sean Maitland......perhaps Bradley was right afterall....

Steady, fES, no individual opinions allowed on this thread and certainly no criticizing any MFL players

I have no issue with individual opinions. As long as they are the same as mine.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Quite right - although those stats would suggest that Lee Jones is a better finisher than Sean Maitland......perhaps Bradley was right afterall....

Steady, fES, no individual opinions allowed on this thread and certainly no criticizing any MFL players

I have no issue with individual opinions. As long as they are the same as mine.

Best of luck with married life there, young man. I'll come and visit you in the hospital.

Oh aye, GC, but he talks a grand game, does our fES!!

TJ, no time like the present - both and young Jonny have excellent experience of captaining U20s, may as well make them co-captains of the senior team as well

funnyExiledScot wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:So let's get this straight, as I don't think it has been mentioned enough on here yet:

Matt Scott is a 12

Visser is a wuss

Is that correct? Not sure it's been said enough...

+1

13?

funnyExiledScot wrote:
I guess if it were a 41 strong squad and you wanted 5 hookers......

.

 

EWT Spoons wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:So let's get this straight, as I don't think it has been mentioned enough on here yet:

Matt Scott is a 12

Visser is a wuss

Is that correct? Not sure it's been said enough...

+1

13 - 1?

Fixed that for you, Spoons, before fES sees it - no charge on this occasion

Right lads, I say we stop the poo throwing and get the banter back on track - we're all supporting the same team, we're better together, and we all know Visser is going to be selected by SJ irrespective of whether he is a jessie or not!

Best of luck to both teams tonight - as I said on the other thread, if Edinburgh can beat Munster, anyone can!