Thoughts From Andy Nicol

First topic message reminder :

From the Beeb - tack it with as many pinches of salt as you wish :http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24382574


Just the actual quotes - avoiding any journo spin - though I cannot guarantee these are in order:

"It could well be the end of professional rugby in Scotland if the competition wasn't to go ahead," Nicol told BBC Scotland.
"I don't think you can fill a hole of that amount with anything else."
"It happens every few years," he told BBC Scotland. "The English and the French flex their collective muscles when the contract is coming to an end.
"But this year, it's very different, because they've got a television deal on the table and it's a real clear and present danger.
"I think there's an acceptance that the current format of the Heineken Cup will cease and there will be a new competition.
"Then we just need to ensure and hope that Scotland are heavily involved in it."
He added: "Where it's flawed is in the qualification. I don't think the two Scottish sides and the Italian sides or the Irish sides should qualify automatically.
"So let's get qualification sorted out and based on a meritocracy and then the distribution of revenues is for the boardrooms.
"There's a bit of posturing from both sides, but I just hope it's a bit of brinksmanship and they get around the table and sort something out - and we get a competition.
"It might not be the Heineken Cup as we call it now, but hopefully we'll get something like it."

beshocked wrote:No gunsgerms it's because I can't be bothered.

Leinsterfan4life Montpellier reached the quarter finals last season.

Racing Metro beat Munster last season. Lost to Sarries after being 17-3 up. They also beat Clermont and Saracens in 2010-11 - two decent scalps.

And in Connachts only two seasons in the Comp they beat Harlequins (who went on to win the AP) and Biarritz (who beat Toulon in the Amlin final the year before) . Two decent scalps... There are countless times French teams have been found wanting and have not tried in the HC.

Biarritz a good scalp? Look at where they are in the Top 14 this season. Biarritz are hopeless away from home in the HC - they lost to Aironi too!

Quins don't actually have a good record in the HC. Not one of the bigger English scalps. Plus Harlequins have beaten Connacht - 5 out of 6 times.

Anyway we'll see what happens when Connacht meet Saracens next week in the HC.

If Connacht beat Saracens I will write an article praising them and apologise for criticising them. Equally I will do so if Connacht beat Toulouse.

GunsGerms wrote:The whole promotion demotion debate is another massive red herring. There is no evidence to prove that it makes a league any better. If anything it makes the quality of rugby worse as teams towards the bottom become ultra conservative. Yet it has very little effect on top on the table clashes the basis by which most leagues are judged.

I agree it is a red herring. It's not the real issue but I wouldn't mind a 6,6,8 with 1 guaranteed from each nation as it will help the league I feel. I do agree however that the Rabo is a very good league and there is little to support the notion that certain games lack quality to a greater extent than the other leagues.

In regards to demotion one of the cheerleaders for the PRL, Conor O'Shea within the last ten years was against relegation in the AP. (I think he may have been at LI at the time) but he cited the NFL as an example of the most professional sport in the world (his words) and it operates without relegation. Relegation is a total red herring. Having more teams with something to play for come may isn't to the same extent.

As long as the clubs don't gain control of European rugby and the revenue is fairly split I am happy. BT can go urine into the wind though

Is the Heineken Cup definitely going ahead?

At this stage no one knows. PRL/LNR say they won't join any comp under the erc and won't negotiate.

Although Lux came out today to say that the LNR have signed a document allowing erc to negotiate their european tv rights and that the sky contract was ratified by Toulouses President.

The stumbling block in all this is the French. The FFR say the LNR can't join another comp and the LNR say they won't work under the erc. Whichever way they fall will be significant

GunsGerms wrote:Is the Heineken Cup definitely going ahead?

This season? Yeah.....but after that its good night Irene...

beshocked wrote:Biarritz a good scalp? Look at where they are in the Top 14 this season. Biarritz are hopeless away from home in the HC - they lost to Aironi too!

Quins don't actually have a good record in the HC. Not one of the bigger English scalps. Plus Harlequins have beaten Connacht - 5 out of 6 times.

Anyway we'll see what happens when Connacht meet Saracens next week in the HC.

If Connacht beat Saracens I will write an article praising them and apologise for criticising them. Equally I will do so if Connacht beat Toulouse.

Like I just wrote Biarritz at the time were the Amlin champs, having beat Toulon in the final. So yes it was a good scalp.

GunsGerms wrote:Is the Heineken Cup definitely going ahead?

 
Not with English or French clubs (as of next season), without them then the HC is nothing more than a Rabo get together.
 
Where have you been for the past few months?

Scrumpy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Is the Heineken Cup definitely going ahead?

 
Not with English or French clubs (as of next season), without them then the HC is nothing more than a Rabo get together.
 
Where have you been for the past few months?

This year you big ninny.

Why wouldn't it go ahead this year?

GunsGerms wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Is the Heineken Cup definitely going ahead?

 
Not with English or French clubs (as of next season), without them then the HC is nothing more than a Rabo get together.
 
Where have you been for the past few months?

This year you big ninny.

 

Sorry dont get it?

My question was is the Hcup going ahead (this year) in response to a reference to the upcoming Connacht v Saracens game next weekend.

I am obviously aware it is currently off the table for next year, the question is it definitely going ahead this year?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

beshocked wrote:Biarritz a good scalp? Look at where they are in the Top 14 this season. Biarritz are hopeless away from home in the HC - they lost to Aironi too!

Quins don't actually have a good record in the HC. Not one of the bigger English scalps. Plus Harlequins have beaten Connacht - 5 out of 6 times.

Anyway we'll see what happens when Connacht meet Saracens next week in the HC.

If Connacht beat Saracens I will write an article praising them and apologise for criticising them. Equally I will do so if Connacht beat Toulouse.

Like I just wrote Biarritz at the time were the Amlin champs, having beat Toulon in the final. So yes it was a good scalp.

From what you are saying Edinburgh should have counted as an impressive scalp for everyone in their HC group because they were HC semi finalists of the season before.... Don't at all take into account their woeful form of last season.

Biarritz came 9th in the top 14 last season. Hardly impressive. They weren't good enough to get into the HC this season and are struggling in the current top 14.

Gunsgerms should go ahead this year.

GunsGerms wrote:Sorry dont get it?

My question was is the Hcup going ahead (this year) in response to a reference to the upcoming Connacht v Saracens game next weekend.

I am obviously aware it is currently off the table for next year, the question is it definitely going ahead this year?

Why wouldn't it go ahead?

English and French clubs signed a contract to play this year, that contract ends at the end of this current season and then the HC will be no more.

Makes you wonder why ERC allowed the contract to enter its final year without thrashing out a new one?

Not very professional imo.

GunsGerms wrote:Sorry dont get it?

My question was is the Hcup going ahead (this year) in response to a reference to the upcoming Connacht v Saracens game next weekend.

I am obviously aware it is currently off the table for next year, the question is it definitely going ahead this year?

Yeah I'm sure the ERC, SKY, plus the sponsors would all sue for damages if it didn't go ahead this year. It will definitely go ahead.

Scrumpy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Sorry dont get it?

My question was is the Hcup going ahead (this year) in response to a reference to the upcoming Connacht v Saracens game next weekend.

I am obviously aware it is currently off the table for next year, the question is it definitely going ahead this year?

Why wouldn't it go ahead?

For some reason I thought the contract was until 2015

GunsGerms wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Sorry dont get it?

My question was is the Hcup going ahead (this year) in response to a reference to the upcoming Connacht v Saracens game next weekend.

I am obviously aware it is currently off the table for next year, the question is it definitely going ahead this year?

Why wouldn't it go ahead?

For some reason I thought the contract was until 2015

Really? End of 2013-2014 season has always been the stated end point.

Only person to suggest otherwise is Martyn Thomas, former RFU President,  who was deemed "a completely untrustworthy witness" by the RFUs disciplinary officer.

In terms of bringing atmosphere and colour (as well as being really quite good at rugby) the top 5 in Europe would be Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Toulouse and Clermont Auvergne with Northampton just behind them. This however cannot be a rationale for deciding who gets in to play. While it would be a giant kick in the nuts for Scottish rugby, qualification must be on merit. Therefore 6 6 and 4 seems a reasonable compromise with 1 and 1 added to make it pan-Europe.

Newsilure wrote:The easiest way to achieve a meritocracy would be to have a knock out cup with all teams entered recieving shared funds based on performance ... perhaps after the initial knock out rounds the last 16 or 8  play in round robin groups like the current HC.

This.  While I would support something like a 6,6,8 split would it be vulnerable to future arguments of "my leagues better than yours and so should have more representation"? The strength of the 3 leagues are impossible to compare objectively in my opinion. Would a qualification round or two ensure complete competitiveness across the leagues and a better representation of quality?

For example; 38 teams minus the previous seasons 1st and 2nd Tier European winners = 36

18 ties home and away decided by a seeded draw based on league position.

So the highest ranked teams from each of the 3 leagues are drawn against the lowest ranked teams (maybe introducing a rule against drawing a team from ones own league if necessary).  This would then leave 20 teams progressing to the group stages of a top European tournament with the remaining 18 to form a 2nd tier closed tournament (no teams knocked out of the top tier allowed in later) along with unions such as Georgia.

Advantages would be some 'interesting' match-ups between the middle seeds as well as true competition all season long with no dead-rubber league matches late in the season as every place in the table counts for an easier draw.

Significant problem would obviously be scheduling.

I thought the whole complaint was that everyone wants to play? If you have playoffs then there is a good chance they won't. In fact I'd say it increases the chance. If the current PRL suggestion isn't enough, there is no way that would be.

Engine#4 wrote:

Newsilure wrote:The easiest way to achieve a meritocracy would be to have a knock out cup with all teams entered recieving shared funds based on performance ... perhaps after the initial knock out rounds the last 16 or 8  play in round robin groups like the current HC.

This.  While I would support something like a 6,6,8 split would it be vulnerable to future arguments of "my leagues better than yours and so should have more representation"? The strength of the 3 leagues are impossible to compare objectively in my opinion. Would a qualification round or two ensure complete competitiveness across the leagues and a better representation of quality?

For example; 38 teams minus the previous seasons 1st and 2nd Tier European winners = 36

18 ties home and away decided by a seeded draw based on league position.

So the highest ranked teams from each of the 3 leagues are drawn against the lowest ranked teams (maybe introducing a rule against drawing a team from ones own league if necessary).  This would then leave 20 teams progressing to the group stages of a top European tournament with the remaining 18 to form a 2nd tier closed tournament (no teams knocked out of the top tier allowed in later) along with unions such as Georgia.

Advantages would be some 'interesting' match-ups between the middle seeds as well as true competition all season long with no dead-rubber league matches late in the season as every place in the table counts for an easier draw.

Significant problem would obviously be scheduling.

The only problem with that is you run the potential risk of several countries being wiped out of the premier competition.

I want a pan European competition and (like many of my Wasps pals) I am not happy with the unnecessarily strident and confrontational comments coming from McCafferty and several English club owners.

However, ERC have been extremely naive, even incompetent, ever since the English and French clubs served notice to quit the HC in its current format.

HammerofThunor wrote:I thought the whole complaint was that everyone wants to play? If you have playoffs then there is a good chance they won't. In fact I'd say it increases the chance. If the current PRL suggestion isn't enough, there is no way that would be.

Hound of Harrow wrote:The only problem with that is you run the potential risk of several countries being wiped out of the premier competition.

I want a pan European competition and (like many of my Wasps pals) I am not happy with the unnecessarily strident and confrontational comments coming from McCafferty and several English club owners.

However, ERC have been extremely naive, even incompetent, ever since the English and French clubs served notice to quit the HC in its current format.

True, if we were to take last year as an example then Italy would be at serious risk of missing out of the main competition. My fantasy suggestion here is more a response to one of the main arguments I have heard from supporters of the PRL/LNR - that they want the best of the best in the premier competition. I'm wondering would they be happy with an arrangement like this one?

Example of playoffs based on league postion;

Ulster vs Newcastle Falcons
Clermont vs Brive
Saracens vs  Oyonnax
Leicester Tigers vs Zebre
Glasgow Warriors vs Bordeaux Bègles
Stade Toulousain vs Worcester Warriors
Harlequins vs FC Grenoble
Scarlets vs Sale Sharks
Northampton Saints vs Newport Gwent Dragons
Castres Olympique vs Edinburgh
Ospreys vs London Irish
Gloucester vs Stade Français
Montpellier Hérault vs  Cardiff Blues
Munster vs London Wasps
Exeter Chiefs vs Biarritz Olympique
Racing Métro vs  Benetton Treviso
USA Perpignan vs Connacht
Bath vs Aviron Bayonnais

* Toulon and Leinster qualify automatically
**Promoted clubs automatically the lowest seeds

As a compromise to ensure all unions are represented maybe each league could supply 4 automatic qualifiers - top 4 from England and France and the top representative of each union - with the rest having to qualify for another 8 or so spots.  (Going purely on last years league) I haven't met many who would begrudge Ulster, Glasgow, Scarlets and Treviso their place at the top table of European Rugby for this season.  I don't know what form the qualifiers might take in this case but with seedings and home and away legs the cream would likely rise to the top. Anyone worried about the quality of the Rabo league need not fear, the Leinsters, Munsters and Ospreys of this world who did not do enough to qualify automatically would have to earn their place  

I'm just spitballing to hear the thoughts of others!

Engine,

There are all sorts of sensible suggestions. Problem is in a game if silly buggers and brinkmanship they care little about common sense.

Party 1 and Party 2 have an alliance.
Party 1 have a grievance with Party 2.
Party 2 refuse to discuss said grievance.
Party 1 tender their resignation.
Party 2 agree to talk with the parents of Party 1, but refuse to acknowledge the existence of Party 1.
Party 1 make an offer for a continued alliance.
Party 1 tentatively agree a deal with regards to said alliance.
Party 2 decline the offer and make a counter offer to the Parents of Party 1.
One of the Parents of Party 1 decline said offer.
Party 2 formally agree a deal promising the presence of Party 1
Party 1 have a meeting with the children of Party 2. A wonderful party is had and all agree to be friends.
Everyone breaks off for summer holidays to exotic locations.
School reconvenes and Party 1 decide they do not want to wait for Party 2 to deign to talk top them.
Party 2 suddenly realise Party 1 is not kidding.
Party 2 panic and make offers via a friend - you know "Do you like so-n-so, coz they like you).
Party 1 stick out their tongues and go nah-nah-na-nah-nah

Everyone has icecream and jelly and is very sick.

LondonTiger,
That's a real great way of summarising the situation. Original and amusing.
You might want to add that the grandparents of both parties are displaying zero leadership to mediate or at least compel discussion? Or that someone from The Regiment should come in and smack around all parties to knock sense into them? Or you might want to tell me to bugger off (until after Tigers-Saints tomorrow)?

I would accept a 6/6/8 split on the top teir. i would prefer a 36 entrant tourney. 6x6 groups then splits into cup, bowl and shield. Everyone gets a chance of winning, every one gets meaningful games, Everyone even gets a chance at a trophy

TJ, would never work,the comp has to fit into 9 weeks, if you play home & away your comp takes 10 weeks for group stage,also need at least 3 home games

Don't play home and away then. so only 5 group games.