Latest delusional tripe from Rugby Chumps Cup No.1 fan

http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/201127.html

The four Welsh regions have been given a deadline of October 31 to commit to joining the breakaway European tournament or to risk being left out in the cold.

With the future of the Heineken Cup increasingly in doubt, the Rugby Paper reports that Premier Rugby Ltd, the group leading the breakaway, are to hold talks with the Welsh regions to try to persuade them to throw in their lot with the new competition.

"We are pushing on with arrangements for the Champions' Cup," PRL chief executive Mark McCafferty told the Rugby Paper. "We have various meetings with the French clubs over the next ten days.We will also be talking to the Welsh regions during the coming week to get further clarification of their position.

"They probably do want to be part of the Champions' Cup but there are various issues to be discussed. Ultimately, they need to decide for themselves with the Welsh Rugby Union. I have sympathy for their position. Various teams from different countries would like to join and are in the process of deciding."

He said the end-of-October deadline was necessary as that was cut-off point to allow commercial discussions to be stepped up. "We very much hope they will be a part of it. They are closer to the club set-up than most in the European theatre."

The Welsh regions face serious financial implications if they decide to stay out as the income from the rump of the Heineken Cup - assuming the French and English clubs stay out of it - is likely to be significantly reduced even if it continues.

McCafferty said he was confident the new tournament would start without the courts being involved. "If for any reason people want to oppose the Champions' Cup, the question they then have to ask is: 'What's the viable alternative?' We don't believe there is one. What we do believe is that Rugby Champions' Cup represents the best solution for all the stakeholders."


I hope the WRU ignore these empty threats and stick with the Pro12 Unions, otherwise it would be a bit of a stab in the back on them. Surely they could have discussed this at the meeting with the neutral party if they were willing to show up.

More desperate floundering. still no one on board with them.

They have gone from wanting to be part of the RCC to 'probably' wanting to join. Im not convinced the welsh will call their bluff but at this stage I do think that is all mccafferty is doing

What the regions want is irrelevant - WRU would veto any such move.

At least 2 Regions go bust without any European money and WRU can found 2 teams that they own lock stock and barrell.

If this was a realistic prosect then it would be media silence.  its a transparent effort to try to pressure them - "its now or never" and we all know thats not the case.  would the PRL really say " sorry you missed the deadline" if the Welsh came to them at christmas?

Oh, I am sure it is a silly came by McGaffertey. Just like many we have seen in the last 7 days. All we get, from everyone is spin and lies.

LondonTiger wrote:What the regions want is irrelevant - WRU would veto any such move.

At least 2 Regions go bust without any European money and WRU can found 2 teams that they own lock stock and barrell.

They can earn money in the challenge cup, though they'd have to do well in that to get significant revenue. Whatever happens, I don't want to see us in this chumps cup.

There will not be any european money unless the administrators actually talk to each other. As they all refuse to - I guess we are all fooked.

LondonTiger wrote:There will not be any european money unless the administrators actually talk to each other. As they all refuse to - I guess we are all fooked.

I had described this as huge parochialism combined with very low emotional intelligence on all sides.  
Nothing has changed.   

And no one has the best interest of Rugby at heart.  Only their myopic view of the world.
Someone save us from the small minded.

Doc, do you think the PRL and LRN have the best interest of rugby at heart?

The Saint wrote:Doc, do you think the PRL and LRN have the best interest of rugby at heart?

No.  Clearly not.
But, to me, it is just as clear the other 'side/sides' do not either.  

One thing which is interesting to me is this appears to have opened up a struggle for power between the older Rugby administrators raised during the amateur days and the more modern ones.  Plus we see the clubs, especially in France, at odds with their union.  The verbiage in England is less strident at the moment, but has been simmering for more than 10 years.  The Welsh Regions, which have their local ownership at odds with the WRU seemingly from the beginning.  Not forgetting the impasse between the English and French clubs and the ERC, it makes me wonder how it ever will be settled.  Too many little, small minded people looking for their own piece of the action.

doctor_grey wrote:

The Saint wrote:Doc, do you think the PRL and LRN have the best interest of rugby at heart?

No.  Clearly not.
But, to me, it is just as clear the other 'side/sides' do not either.  

One thing which is interesting to me is this appears to have opened up a struggle for power between the older Rugby administrators raised during the amateur days and the more modern ones.  Plus we see the clubs, especially in France, at odds with their union.  The verbiage in England is less strident at the moment, but has been simmering for more than 10 years.  The Welsh Regions, which have their local ownership at odds with the WRU seemingly from the beginning.  Not forgetting the impasse between the English and French clubs and the ERC, it makes me wonder how it ever will be settled.  Too many little, small minded people looking for their own piece of the action.

More like small nations trying to protect the game in their countries while two others hold a gun to their head.

Still nothing from the RFU on how they see the situation.

The RFU and FFR will talk with the ERC at the next meeting. Until then the announcements from McCafferty are as presumptuous as his previous.

Their strategy seems to be about pressuring others to sign on for a tournament without knowing the details. Never mind negotiating with the details.

It is crazy...? Considering the manner in which McCafferty has conducted himself I can't understand why on earth anyone would sign up to his concept championship, certainly not by being threatened to do so.

McCaffertys concept "The competition will be based on the principles of qualification on merit." If he only has the English clubs, possibly a few French and is begging the welsh surely there is less qualification merit than automatic selection..? To be honest McCafferty will be hard pushed to get 20 clubs, let alone 20 from three leagues qualifying on merit.

Marc Watson, is just as bad. Some of the BS he has come out with this week as BT seem to be distancing themselves rather rapidly from this whole balls up..

"We are comfortable we didn't cause the issues that are there," Watson told the Times. "It is presented as us having a role in the problems with that tournament."

Interesting - if you run the terms 'Mark McCafferty' through a Google 'images' search, you seem to get an overwhelming number of hits with images a lot like these:

maestegmafia wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

The Saint wrote:Doc, do you think the PRL and LRN have the best interest of rugby at heart?

No.  Clearly not.
But, to me, it is just as clear the other 'side/sides' do not either.  

One thing which is interesting to me is this appears to have opened up a struggle for power between the older Rugby administrators raised during the amateur days and the more modern ones.  Plus we see the clubs, especially in France, at odds with their union.  The verbiage in England is less strident at the moment, but has been simmering for more than 10 years.  The Welsh Regions, which have their local ownership at odds with the WRU seemingly from the beginning.  Not forgetting the impasse between the English and French clubs and the ERC, it makes me wonder how it ever will be settled.  Too many little, small minded people looking for their own piece of the action.

More like small nations trying to protect the game in their countries while two others hold a gun to their head.

Still nothing from the RFU on how they see the situation.

The RFU and FFR will talk with the ERC at the next meeting. Until then the announcements from McCafferty are as presumptuous as his previous.

Maes,
Sorry, mate, but I cannot agree - all sides are equally to blame.  To me this is clear.

Sorry to be preachy, but it takes all sides to make negotiation work.  This is a long standing grievance which goes back before the prior European Cup negotiation.  I cannot accept that no one had more than two brain cells to rub together from any quarter, any side, to resolve the issues before bringing us to the precipice which we seem to be nearing today.  Everyone taking an intransigent approach is part of the problem, I believe.  

It is undeniably as I said:  Lack of emotional intelligence, parochial small minded thinking, and total disrespect for their partners which brought us to where we are.  I am astounded how anyone can believe the other side (whatever that means) is any worse than their own is this regard.  This is exactly how we go off the edge, then naively wonder where it all went wrong.

I am sorry because I don't like to enter these discussions on 606 because I don't want to offend anyone here, and because of the severe emotional component of even commenting on this subject.  But I continue to be astounded that people appear to be so closed minded.  I don't know much about these kinds of negotiations, nor do most of us, but it is clear there must be alternatives within the context of a 20 or 24 team top level tournament.  We need to ensure the right money flows back, the right tv exposure exists for each team, the right governance exists, and so on.  Really doesn't seem as difficult as negotiating the end to the Cuban Missile Crisis, does it?

Doc - let's not forget why we are where we are, though. It does a disservice to separate the principles from the circumstances in which we are now discussing them.
 
Nobody with any sense (that I've seen) is denying that the HC structure operates to the detriment of English clubs. Of course it does. This could be rectified through making domestic changes, but dealing purely with outputs and the world in which the English clubs have found themselves through no particular fault of their own, it is absolutely valid if you're an English club to want the structure to change. That's the principles established.
 
Now the process. If the English and French clubs wanted a different tournament, there was a correct and expedient way to do it. The English RFU and their French counterparts would have agreed principles between them, discussed with their Celtic brethren how best to acheive them, waited for the current arrangements to which they were contractually bound to expire and then implemented what they wanted. Everyone informed, nobody could be accused of vitiating existing arrangments. That's how the business world works. If this had been done correctly, nobody on these boards would have seen these machinations.
 
But that's not what happened. The aforementioned horse's petoot decided to use the media to spray emotive diarrhea around in an attempt to force all other participants to the existing arrangements to break them. It is an embarrassing and crass way for any organisation to conduct itself and I have seen and read enough to know that McCafferty is a joke as a working professional. I'm not talking about anyone else at the RFU. Just him.
 
Principles are what they are and there is a definite case to answer to make things better for the English and the French. Most commentators (most recently Johnny Beattie Snr for the BBC) agree that merit based qualification is fair and there should be a redistribution of funds. That's not what I care about.
 
Nobody should try to bully other people or organisations. It's ugly and it's stupid and sadly it's happened in the game that I thought (hoped) had a better class of individual running it.

Well Roger Lewis said on Scrum V last night that if the regions jump in bed with the Franglos then they are on their own, and not just financially but no Rabo, no referees, no players to be called up into the national squad, no anything, all they would have is what ever cup they are going to play in, so I cannot see the regions jumping ship. He also said that the WRU have put a million pounds aside to keep the best players in Wales, but to receive this money the regions have to sign an agreement with the WRU so I guess the regions will not be playing in any super dooper cup next season, not as it stands anyway.

Now that Roger 'CEO' Lewis is the self appointed Kofi Annan of this 'scenario' - the whole Franglo mess will be resolved by lunchtime.

Nothing that a powerpoint presentation with a few tuna wraps and sparkling waters can't solve.

Also, have the the Fench and English clubs actually thought about what they are doing here, where will they get their refs from, what league's will they play in if their unions decide they are not going to support them in this fight.

Casartelli wrote:Now that Roger 'CEO' Lewis is the self appointed Kofi Annan of this 'scenario'  - the whole Franglo mess will be resolved by lunchtime.

Nothing that a powerpoint presentation with a few tuna wraps and sparkling waters can't solve.

 Funny because it's true

George Carlin wrote:

Casartelli wrote:Now that Roger 'CEO' Lewis is the self appointed Kofi Annan of this 'scenario'  - the whole Franglo mess will be resolved by lunchtime.

Nothing that a powerpoint presentation with a few tuna wraps and sparkling waters can't solve.

 Funny because it's true

Being one of the great business administration geniuses of the modern era, Roger 'CEO' Lewis did, of course, spot the potential problems brewing with the PRL/HC before anyone else did. He just decided to wait 16 months before 'offering his services' to heighten the sense of drama.

He's also a media genius.

LordDowlais wrote:Also, have the the Fench and English clubs actually thought about what they are doing here, where will they get their refs from, what league's will they play in if their unions decide they are not going to support them in this fight.

The French have already said they won't support them. The only union they potentially have support from is the rfu who have been silent.

Standulstermen wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Also, have the the Fench and English clubs actually thought about what they are doing here, where will they get their refs from, what league's will they play in if their unions decide they are not going to support them in this fight.

The French have already said they won't support them. The only union they potentially have support from is the rfu who have been silent.

I can't see the RFU not following the IRB and all the other unions.

And as funny and accurate as Casartelli's comments are about Roger (forked tongue) Lewis, the threat is there, and he will not back down it seems, so if the regions do decide to follow the Franglo's then they are on their own, with only one competition to play in, so I think the regions will not play in this cup.

George,
Thanks for response.  Very clear.  I suppose it depends how we define when this nonsense started.  To me, it started at the last European Cup negotiation when the same grievances were aired and more or less postponed for this one.  During that time there was minimal verbal/media stuff, yet no movement (what I refer to as a lack of respect).

So now we move closer to the brink, I am sure the unfortunate verbal diarrhea started as a consequence of the lack of movement.  Not defending it because it is wrong.  

But to me, this nonsense must be ignored in a negotiation.  It is really for the consumption of others (us?) but has no bearing on negotiations.  It is only a distraction which should be ignored.  But this frustrates me at a high level:  Everyone should shut the hell up (other expletive not chosen here) and hammer out a deal.  

Principles are what they are and there is a definite case to answer to make things better for the English and the French. Most commentators (most recently Johnny Beattie Snr for the BBC) agree that merit based qualification is fair and there should be a redistribution of funds. That's not what I care about.

But to me this is exactly what we must care about.  This type of compromise being discussed does not seem to have been on the table until recently (at least from what I recall?).  As I said, the behaviour by all sides (there are far more than just two now) is a consequence of the lack of movement.  And to me the bullying is the same whether one pushes hard for negotiation or one refuses real negotiation.  At least this is how I see it.  Which is why I believe all sides (how many by now?) have let us down.  

They are all screwing with Rubgy - our Rugby.  Mate, I cannot see how one side is even slightly better than the other.  We need leadership, even one leader who can rise above the crap, put rings through everyone's noses and lead them calmly or roughly to a solution.  I don't care about the hard feelings.  They must all grow up and get over it.

Sorry for being strident - not directed at you at all. But I just had to vent. We good?

doctor_grey wrote:George,
Thanks for response.  Very clear.  I suppose it depends how we define when this nonsense started.  To me, it started at the last European Cup negotiation when the same grievances were aired and more or less postponed for this one.  During that time there was minimal verbal/media stuff, yet no movement (what I refer to as a lack of respect).

So now we move closer to the brink, I am sure the unfortunate verbal diarrhea started as a consequence of the lack of movement.  Not defending it because it is wrong.  

But to me, this nonsense must be ignored in a negotiation.  It is really for the consumption of others (us?) but has no bearing on negotiations.  It is only a distraction which should be ignored.  But this frustrates me at a high level:  Everyone should shut the hell up (other expletive not chosen here) and hammer out a deal.  

Principles are what they are and there is a definite case to answer to make things better for the English and the French. Most commentators (most recently Johnny Beattie Snr for the BBC) agree that merit based qualification is fair and there should be a redistribution of funds. That's not what I care about.

But to me this is exactly what we must care about.  This type of compromise being discussed does not seem to have been on the table until recently (at least from what I recall?).  As I said, the behaviour by all sides (there are far more than just two now) is a consequence of the lack of movement.  And to me the bullying is the same whether one pushes hard for negotiation or one refuses real negotiation.  At least this is how I see it.  Which is why I believe all sides (how many by now?) have let us down.  

They are all screwing with Rubgy - our Rugby.  Mate, I cannot see how one side is even slightly better than the other.  We need leadership, even one leader who can rise above the crap, put rings through everyone's noses and lead them calmly or roughly to a solution.  I don't care about the hard feelings.  They must all grow up and get over it.

Sorry for being strident - not directed at you at all.  But I just had to vent.  We good?

Definitely  
 
I just want the regular opportunity for Glasgow to administer a large wedgie to a major French club each season and have Austin Healey forced to admit in print that it didn't happen through a 'positive discrimation for the smellies' program.

Any cruel and unusual punishment you can administer to a large French club - and especially to Austin Healey - is good with me.