It's about time the RFU detailed their position and aligned themselves with either the PRL or Rugby.

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Clubs face oblivion if RFU take on PRL over Europe

Posted on October 4, 2013 by Jeff Probyn in Jeff Probyn

Financial Oblivion are the words used by Bath’s owner Bruce Craig when describing the possible fate facing the RaboDirect Pro12 if they don’t join the new Rugby Champions Cup.

There was also a threat of legal action should the IRB or Unions try to interfere or stop it. So there it is: Capitulate or there will be out and out war between the clubs and Unions.

If it is war, the big question is, would the RFU have the courage to do what’s needed to win?

I have no doubt the IRB will be up for the fight given the possible consequences of ceding power to a few rich club owners, or that if the French Union (FFR) remain strongly against any new competition, that their clubs (LNR) will back down rather than face a possible ban from the FFR – but the RFU are different.

Not since the first days of professionalism when Cliff Brittle was chairman have the RFU stood against PRL (the Premiership clubs) or its predecessors and it would be hard for them to take such a stand now, especially this close to the World Cup – but not impossible.

PRL are using the ‘carrot and stick’ approach with the Union in trying to gain their support. The ‘carrot’ is the promise of a more financially stable Premiership by their running and organising the competition in Europe.

The ‘stick’ is possible legal action and the threat of withholding players from international preparations if the RFU refuse to give their backing for the new competition.

If the RFU were strong enough to face up to this challenge from the clubs they could possibly rescue not just the English but the European game from total meltdown.

It would be incredibly painful and could involve going back to those dark days of turmoil and bankruptcy that were so much a part of those early days of the professional game in England – but let’s imagine this possible scenario…

The RFU vote against the formation of the new competition and the PRL retaliate by not releasing players for international duties stating primacy of contract and launch a restraint of trade action against the Union and the IRB.

The RFU then withdraw from negotiations to pay the clubs for player release and announce that they will form six regional teams to take part in Europe.

The RFU enter negotiations with NCA (National Clubs Association) for players to be brought into the EPS along with a number of elite academy players and, at this point, the RFU announce that from now on they will centrally contract the players for regions as they have done for the England Sevens squad.

This would enable the RFU to save the money currently paid to the PRL clubs for playing English Qualified Players and it would allow the RFU to contract only EQP for each region, should they wish to do so.

To avoid any legal or financial repercussions each step would be brought in as contracts between the RFU and PRL end, while at the same time the RFU would withdraw all non-contracted funding from PRL clubs.

With agreement from government, the RFU announce that the academies are to be removed from the Premiership clubs and transferred to universities and colleges in each of the regions along with all accompanying funding.

The PRL clubs would then form a break-away game, but without the funding from the RFU, those that don’t have rich owners prepared to cover the shortfall would quickly find themselves in financial difficulties.

Then the RFU call a special general meeting to create regional teams and restructure the leagues with a return of limited funding for all levels of the game, which is approved.

The season is restructured so that the leagues feed into a county championship that acts as a number of trials for regional selection and the European games are moved to a time that fits better with the French season to appease LNR.

Players in England would have to make tough choices when it comes to contract renewal.

Do they stay with the PRL clubs with no hope of international honours or take a chance and sign for the RFU regions with a chance to play for England and the extra earning potential that brings?

There would be short term consequences for the national side as all the current squad members are contracted to PRL clubs but that would last only until either contracts were renewed or new players emerged through the ranks, which could be just a single season.

The potential outcome would be a stable league structure in England with the RFU funding just six regional teams instead of the 24 clubs in the Premiership and Championship.

The European competitions would remain under Union control, enabling them to continue the role of developing rugby across the whole of the European rugby community while PRL would have caught the bus to their own Financial Oblivion!

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:But where will they get all their match officials and the what not for this new competition ?

Well, since they've said they need union approval I guess it'll be from the unions involved.

And that is the crux of it all, an agreement has been signed without the approval of the unions and now we are all in limbo, did the PRL/LNR have any right to sign this deal ? If not then how did this happen ? Has any money changed hands ? The unions will not approve this deal and all the arguments will then be pointless, if the clubs walk away, then what are they going to play in ? So many questions and so little answers, somebody somewhere needs a good old talking to.

Good point. It is also worth pointing out however that the ERC arguably had no right to make the Sky deal either. Loverly innit.

The sky deal was ratified by members of the LNR and all the unions. There has also been claimed that despite announcements the sky deal was done prior to the BT deal. To be truthful none of us on here have any clue but it appears someone in the higher levels of the game is bluffing and unfortunately we will all be the ones who suffer. It has to all come out at some point the way things are going.

nathan wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Recwatcher wrote:Match officials cam be offered new contracts, just like players.....

Yes but how many contract are up at the end of this season ? Also, I am sure the ref's would be more loyal to the unions in which they represent, especially when wanting to aspire to ref at international level, also there is a world cup comming up, the only answer I can see is tempting refs like Allain Rolland who is retiring at the end of the season to give it another year. But there are not many like him who are ready to retire.

Do the contracts say they are only allowed to ref in certain leagues/cups? Is there anything to say that couldn't have two contracts on the go?

Information coming out of France is that the IRB/FFR are going to ban every club, official, player etc. from international rugby who participates in any non-IRB sanctioned competition.

And the IRB are not going to sanction this competition.

Courses, accredition ect. lie with the IRB/Unions. Basically, the Franglos would have to set up a whole new organisation, providing coaching, ref training courses etc and develop their own admin because its highly unlikely that players will touch a league that prevents them from playing/officiating in international rugby and I don't see the likes of Sexton, Roberts, Lydiate, ROG etc. hanging around too long in France if they are going to be excluded in participating/coaching etc. in their own countries.

Recwatcher, I will keep faith with the unions that have run our game for over one hundred years before I pledge my allegiance to a group of multimillionaires with ego's to go with their fortunes, I will say this though, some of our unions do need a shake up, but they are the one's in charge, this whole debacle has mutiny written all over it, and it just leaves a bitter taste in the mouth, I can see the point on both sides, but for a group of people selling something they do not own something has to be done to stop it, perhaps BT should have dealt with the unions, or the PRL/LNR should have gone to the unions and told them about the BT deal that was on offer, but we cannot have a situation where the people in charge are being undermined by people who think they are only trying to what's best for their own interests, where will it stop ?

Standulstermen surely if the French and English had majority vote as you said they could change things themselves. They cannot because they don't.

Why is it unthinkable that clubs control any new competition? Surely there are more "clubs"/teams that don't have rich owners?

The rich clubs owners in England are outnumbered. Not sure what the case is in France.

Lorddowlais in my opinion the WRU doesn't give a damn about the Welsh clubs/regions. It only cares about the international game hence the extra match to boost coffers.

Sin é wrote:

nathan wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Recwatcher wrote:Match officials cam be offered new contracts, just like players.....

Yes but how many contract are up at the end of this season ? Also, I am sure the ref's would be more loyal to the unions in which they represent, especially when wanting to aspire to ref at international level, also there is a world cup comming up, the only answer I can see is tempting refs like Allain Rolland who is retiring at the end of the season to give it another year. But there are not many like him who are ready to retire.

Do the contracts say they are only allowed to ref in certain leagues/cups? Is there anything to say that couldn't have two contracts on the go?

Information coming out of France is that the IRB/FFR are going to ban every club, official, player etc. from international rugby who participates in any non-IRB sanctioned competition.

And the IRB are not going to sanction this competition.

Courses, accredition ect. lie with the IRB/Unions. Basically, the Franglos would have to set up a whole new organisation, providing coaching, ref training courses etc and develop their own admin because its highly unlikely that players will touch a league that prevents them from playing/officiating in international rugby and I don't see the likes of Sexton, Roberts, Lydiate, ROG etc. hanging around too long in France if they are going to be excluded in participating/coaching etc. in their own countries.

The WRU have come out and said the exact same thing as well, or should I say Roger Lewis has, so I cannot see the regions joining it either.

LD I dont disagree with much of that, trouble is that is not how the world works, is it.

The rugby world model works on the basis of a dozen test matches a year and everything else is supposed to work around that and is part of the reason the game has not spread globally as well as it could. That only happens from a bottom up process. The power however has been centralised into the hands of the few who have or are trying to consolidate the finances and to date gave been pretty successful.

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:But where will they get all their match officials and the what not for this new competition ?

Well, since they've said they need union approval I guess it'll be from the unions involved.

And that is the crux of it all, an agreement has been signed without the approval of the unions and now we are all in limbo, did the PRL/LNR have any right to sign this deal ? If not then how did this happen ? Has any money changed hands ? The unions will not approve this deal and all the arguments will then be pointless, if the clubs walk away, then what are they going to play in ? So many questions and so little answers, somebody somewhere needs a good old talking to.

The unions haven't said they won't approve it, other than FFR from memory. The RFU have said nothing and the other unions have said their teams won't play in a competition they don't approve of. FFR problem is fixed when the ERC demises.

beshocked wrote:Standulstermen surely if the French and English had majority vote as you said they could change things themselves. They cannot because they don't.

Why is it unthinkable that clubs control any new competition? Surely there are more "clubs"/teams that don't have rich owners?

The rich clubs owners in England are outnumbered. Not sure what the case is in France.

Lorddowlais in my opinion the WRU doesn't give a damn about the Welsh clubs/regions. It only cares about the international game hence the extra match to boost coffers.

You're assuming the FFR and rfu vote with their clubs. Rfu might do but the FFR have often gone against the LNR and even forced them to vote for Lux in the reelection but their you are talking block vote in is 10-8 and the 8 are the Rabo unions

Thunor

The FFR don't die with the erc they are still the French union and they have categorically stated they won't approve it. I do think in the end the LNR will hang the PRL out to dry in this

I will say one thing about the WRU though, they have turned an organisation that was losing money hand over fist, and I am not talking peanuts, they were owing out tens of millions, into a union that is announcing record profits over the years, the stadium debt is falling year on year and when that has finally gone then we are talking serious money, perhaps only then will we see our best players being kept in Wales, I would rather see a union like that running the game than a bunch of men with money to burn and only interested in the size of their ego's running our game, because I am sure this is what the owners of the four regions would love to have as well.

what is with all this "rich club owners" thing? exactly how many club owners in the jeff are actually rich and does being rich somehow make you a nasty person?

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:But where will they get all their match officials and the what not for this new competition ?

Well, since they've said they need union approval I guess it'll be from the unions involved.

And that is the crux of it all, an agreement has been signed without the approval of the unions and now we are all in limbo, did the PRL/LNR have any right to sign this deal ? If not then how did this happen ? Has any money changed hands ? The unions will not approve this deal and all the arguments will then be pointless, if the clubs walk away, then what are they going to play in ? So many questions and so little answers, somebody somewhere needs a good old talking to.

The unions haven't said they won't approve it, other than FFR from memory. The RFU have said nothing and the other unions have said their teams won't play in a competition they don't approve of. FFR problem is fixed when the ERC demises.

Thunor, Roger Lewis said on tele last night that any region/club from Wales who take part will get nothing from the WRU and will not be able to play in the Rabo either.

'The Unions of Italy,Wales,Scotland and Ireland want to keep the status quo because it's a cosy deal.'  

This may, or may not, have been their stance 12 months ago it certaintly isn't now.
If the English and French were prepared to accept a 6/6/8 team split and and a 30/30/40 cash split we would have a deal. They are not they want a 1/3 all the way with no recognition that the Pro12 has team from 4 Unions. Meet the Pro 12 half way as above and a deal could be in place even at this late stage.

The other element that grates is the English clubs basically saying this is whats on the table take it or leave it no compromise. Comes across as incredibly arrogant.
Again I don't think getting rid of the ERC is a show stopper but any new body would have to recognize the 30/30/40 split above and crucially the French and English clubs must not have more than 50% between them. Splitting the English and French clubs % in some way with their Unions could solve this.

The last thing, and I think the biggest stumbling bock is the English clubs signing a TV contract with a European element without any consulation with the other relevant bodies. Basically why should the other Unions/Clubs accept this a fait accompli?

No, you're right but the FFR said they want the ERC to control euro rugby. If the ERC goes the FFR will have to change stance. This doesn't mean they'll agree with LNR of course.

As an aside do not be surprised if the current FFR position is a bargaining chip with the french clubs to gain greater access to french players as per the RFU model. Saint Andre has been asking for this for a while and would not be at all surprised if the clubs granted this for RCC sanction.

When the French clubs conclude their next TV deal next year, it is going to make Rugby fansl this side of the channel eye's water...

Lorddowlais tell me do you think it helps the Welsh regions competing in the HC to lose their key players for the 4th international?

geoff998rugby is there a quote somewhere showing that the Pro12 unions would agree to that.

To be fair - I would personally accept that deal but only if the ERC was disbanded.

But the IRB are not going to sanction the competition anyway - so France will have no international rugby to get their players released for!

That's true thunor and I'm not against a new body but it has to be union controlled. If the rfu and FFR wish to relinquish some level of their vote then thats their call or we could appoint some independent person(s) on board to help provide an impartiality to any votes although at that level I suspect bribes and the like would still be rife.

beshocked wrote:standulsterman is this compromise in the Heineken Cup? The English and French clubs have made it clear they don't want the ERC running the competition.

I personally don't want the ERC still in charge. They have shown their incompetence in handling this.

And who/what should replace the ERC? The Unions control the ERC (just look at the representation on it).

By the way, for an incompetent lot, how did they manage to develop one of the best competitions around?

THis is the board of the ERC

France Jean-Pierre Lux (ERC Chairman)
France Michel Palmié (FFR) René Bouscatel (LNR)
England Rob Andrew (RFU) Peter Wheeler (Premiership Rugby)
Ireland Peter Boyle (IRFU) Philip Browne (IRFU)
Italy Andrea Rinaldo (FIR) Fabrizio Gaetaniello (FIR)
Scotland Mark Dodson (Scottish Rugby) Ian McLauchlan (Scottish Rugby)
Wales Roger Lewis (WRU) Stuart Gallacher (RRW)

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais tell me do you think it helps the Welsh regions competing in the HC to lose their key players for the 4th international?

geoff998rugby is there a quote somewhere showing that the Pro12 unions would agree to that.

To be fair - I would personally accept that deal but only if the ERC was disbanded.

Beshocked, the WRU pay to have those players for the extra international, if the regions wanted to they could say "no thanks keep the money, we would rather have our players for the week before the HC is on"

Also, what is your issue with the ERC, or the RFU or any rugby union for that matter, lets not forget these establishments have run our game for over 100 years now, ok some of them could do with a shake up, but on the whole they have not done a bad job over the last century and a bit have they ?

Beshocked not a direct quote but from the snippets I am told it does seem to be accepted as the compromise that the Pro12 nations need/are prepared to make in order to resolve.

I think the other elements are seen as key to - the English and French clubs must not have more than 50% of the voting rights on a new body and I suspect that the 2 sets of clubs and the English board must not make more than 50% either. That last bit is a guess on my part.

Lets say

PRL - 20%
English Board - 10%
French League - 15%
French Board - 15%
Irish Board - 11%
Welsh Board - 11%
Scottish Board - 9%
Italain Board - 9%

Some changes need 51% others need 61%
That would work and I hope be acceptable to all.

standulsterman this is where the true argument lies - control.

Lorddowlais oh right so it's about money again.

Unions have their self interests too.

The RFU love money just as the other unions do too. I don't particularly think they care about the fans. They try to milk as much money from the cash cow as they can.

E.g. The RFU wouldn't guarantee tickets for Twickenham debenture holders at the 2015 RWC. Effectively screwing them over so they can squeeze more money out of punters.

They are money driven and it sounds like you are money driven too.

Sin e I said the ERC have been incompetent in handling this situation. Why has it taken them so long for them to take this issue seriously.

beshocked wrote:

Sin e I said the ERC have been incompetent in handling this situation. Why has it taken them so long for them to take this issue seriously.

Whatever new company is employed will be made up of the same people. The ERC executives are directed by the Board of Directors. Wheeler was privy to the ERC Broadcasting rights sale to Sky while negotiating his own deal with BT. Not very responsible of a director of the ERC, is it? He could be prosecuted for that.

beshocked wrote:standulsterman this is where the true argument lies - control.

Lorddowlais oh right so it's about money again.

Unions have their self interests too.

The RFU love money just as the other unions do too. I don't particularly think they care about the fans. They try to milk as much money from the cash cow as they can.

E.g. The RFU wouldn't guarantee tickets for Twickenham debenture holders at the 2015 RWC. Effectively screwing them over so they can squeeze more money out of punters.

They are money driven and it sounds like you are money driven too.

Sin e I said the ERC have been incompetent in handling this situation. Why has it taken them so long for them to take this issue seriously.

And the PRL have the interests of the fans at heart?  If that is the case why are they trying to kill off the best rugby competition in the world that the fans and players love?

beshocked wrote:standulsterman this is where the true argument lies - control.

Lorddowlais oh right so it's about money again.

Unions have their self interests too.

The RFU love money just as the other unions do too. I don't particularly think they care about the fans. They try to milk as much money from the cash cow as they can.

E.g. The RFU wouldn't guarantee tickets for Twickenham debenture holders at the 2015 RWC. Effectively screwing them over so they can squeeze more money out of punters.

They are money driven and it sounds like you are money driven too.

Sin e I said the ERC have been incompetent in handling this situation. Why has it taken them so long for them to take this issue seriously.

This I can agree with, but for some reason you have a real big issue with the unions, when have I been about money ? All I am doing is responding to you about the WRU screwing over the unions before the HC, how can they be screwing them over when they are paying the regions for the players they are using ? The regions do not have to take the money. Look, I am no fan of the WRU and the way they organise things, but the proof is in the pudding, Welsh rugby was on the brink of disaster, but the current lot have tuned us around into a profit making organisation, what is there to argue about in that ?

Also, do you honestly think that a competition run by clubs is ever going to work ? The owners of these clubs would answer to no one, if things turned sour there would be all out war between them, but I must be seeing something vastly different to you, as I only want what is good for everybody, and if an organisation could go ahead and sell something they do not even own then for my part, they cannot be trusted.  

The more this rumbles on the clearer it seems to be that the big stumbling block to this is the sky deal.  I think an agreement can be reached around qualification.  I think the club/union thing can be solved in a similar was as it is now, with the unions holding the votes for their ‘clubs’ but ceding the voting rights where it can be negotiated i.e. for the PRL most likely and for the LNR potentially depending on their own wrangling’s.  The Sky deal seems to be the key in that the LNR and PRL know that they can negotiate/have negotiated better terms with alternative broadcasters and won’t drop those deals.  The Sky deal is tied to ERC and no matter what the circumstances when the deal was signed; the fact is it was for a period where not all teams had committed to competing.  A lot will depend on Sky’s appetite for a fight and how watertight their deal is but I can’t help thinking if they are prepared to negotiate new terms then a decent outcome can be had for all.  BT can hold the rights to the PRL home games, Sky for the Rabo home games and the French will have their deal with whoever it may be.  I’d imagine then the rights to the French home games could be sold on to one of BT or Sky and so one of them will end up pretty happy with having two thirds of the games.  Or even better split the deal so BT and Sky have an equal share!  With a revamped second tear comp on the cards (so all teams involved in a European comp) that would still give a broadcaster a minimum of 6 home games in each round of the group games to broadcast and potentially more.

I’m not too worried about the outcome for any side.  I think whatever happens rugby will go on in some form and will flourish for all parties but in terms of the ultimate outcome and a smooth transition to it I think Sky are the ones who could make it happen.

Peter Wheeler has come out & said that the Sky deal was not agreed at any meeting he was present at. The PRL sent e-mails to ERC/SKY saying that ERC didnt have the rights to PRL teams media rights

Sin e you call it the best competition in the world. I think it can be improved. Plus why is it that you never mention unions outside the established top tier club like Belgium,Romania,Spain,Germany etc?

I want to see them having a say too.

By wanting a better competition the PRL are thinking of the fans. The lack of a resolution is not just down to the PRL. The PRL could have handled this better too sure but it's not just them in the wrong. A more competitive 2nd tier would help European rugby.

Also a 6,6,8 would lead to a more competitive Pro12.

Lorddowlais what is Welsh rugby to you? To me - the focus is mostly on international rugby to the detriment of club rugby in Wales. I feel like the Welsh teams have lost their identity. This is down to the WRU in my opinion. They have destroyed the Welsh club game for their own interests.

Case in my point many Welsh people care about the Welsh international side but indifferent towards the regions plus there is no Northern region/club which isolates a part of Wales.

I want to see balance between international rugby and club rugby - not one being trampled by the other.

I don't want the unions trampling the clubs but equally I don't want to see clubs running amok either.

Peter Wheeler knew what the Sky deal was as a Director of ERC (insider information). He has clearly ignored his directorship responsibilities to the ERC and could be prosecuted under company law.

How do you Know that Peter Wheler knew what the Sky deal was?

beshocked wrote:Sin e you call it the best competition in the world. I think it can be improved. Plus why is it that you never mention unions outside the established top tier club like Belgium,Romania,Spain,Germany etc?

I want to see them having a say too.

But Wheeler and co are not trying to improve it, they are trying to kill it.

The reason why I don't mention teams outside the top tier is that a) they are not at a stage where they can contribute meaningfully just yet and b) up to now, it the celts who have done most to help develop Italian rugby while all the PRL & LNR want to do is kill it off. It would have been much easier for the Italians to perhaps get involved in the 2nd Div. French League. That could have been their contribution to developing rugby.

By wanting a better competition the PRL are thinking of the fans. The lack of a resolution is not just down to the PRL. The PRL could have handled this better too sure but it's not just them in the wrong. A more competitive 2nd tier would help European rugby.

Also a 6,6,8 would lead to a more competitive Pro12.

The PRL doesn't give anything for what the fans want. I have yet to come across a single person or player who doesn't think the present HCup isn't a great competition. The only people who have a problem with it is Wheeler & Co.

The only thing that is wrong with the Pro 12 (some might feel its right) is that it hasn't been hyped to high heavens by Sky like the PRL has been.

I have a new French, Clermont supporting neighbour who watches an awful lot of rugby - he doesn't want a Franglo comp. and and doesn't think a lot of some of the French rugby (Toulin etc). His favourite comp. is the Heineken Cup.

broadlandboy wrote:How do you Know that Peter Wheler knew what the Sky deal was?

Well, it was hardly just presented at a meeting (he claims he wasn't at) where the directors wouldn't have had time to study it.

Anyway, he would have been negligent as a director of the ERC to not have known the details of an agreement like this which all the directors were being asked to approve at a Board Meeting.

He also would have known it was up for discussion as it would have been on the agenda, so he should have made more effort to attend.

The point of bringing up the sky deal was not to get into another peeing competition about who did what and why they did it.  It’s happened now and it’s how things move forward that’s important.  Whatever happened the fact is Sky signed a deal for a competition in which about 50% of the teams are no longer obliged to compete in.  In my mind there are three possible outcomes to this:

- It was a poor contract for Sky and no matter who is participating Sky still have to pay for the rights.  Assuming this is the case the Rabo teams could continue and take all the cash but risk the future relationship with Sky.

- The Sky deal with ERC is watertight in that they have rights to a competition that the ERC can no longer provide.  Sky dig their heels in and try and take legal action against ERC cue all sorts of counter claims and actions keeping everyone in court for a long time.

- Sky accept the deal in the format they signed will no longer happen and try and salvage what they can i.e. something similar to what I outlined where they have just the rights to the Rabo European home games but for a lower value.

It doesn’t really matter anymore how we got where we are, no one is blameless.  The important thing is that (I hope) some people are in a room somewhere trying to work out a way of moving forward instead of going over the same tired arguments that repeat themselves on these boards.

The ERC seem to be pretty tight with Sky - the launch of the Heineken Cup was held in their offices in Dublin last week. Previous years it was in the Aviva. Sky will and can afford to play the long game here. They know they can't urine off the unions as they are the ones who control rugby.

Sin é wrote:The ERC seem to be pretty tight with Sky - the launch of the Heineken Cup was held in their offices in Dublin last week. Previous years it was in the Aviva. Sky will and can afford to play the long game here. They know they can't urine off the unions as they are the ones who control rugby.

There were launches in each of the regions I believe except for England who did a joint one with Wales and the MS. What does this show? Where is being tight with the ERC going to get them? How tight will they remain with the ERC if the ERC doesn't deliver on it's agreement with them?

If you take the HC out of the equation who is their next biggest relationship with in rugby? I don't know for a fact but I'd bet the one for the England internationals with the RFU is top of the list.

" But Wheeler and co are not trying to improve it, they are trying to kill it."

Sin e, the PRL and LNR have tried to negotiate about the change of system for years. There were headlines back in 2007 of the Franglo clubs trying to discuss matters but they were rebuffed and have been rebuffed ever since. The Lux reappointment farce seems to have been the final straw.

They want to reinvent the competition but the ERC have played dirty and so they want a fresh setup. The way they have gone about it in the media was pretty silly but the ERC and the Unions have boxed them into a corner.

English fans will not follow regions. It will take all the spice out of the game just like it has in Wales. The East Midlands vs the West Country? No thanks, we'd much rather see Tigers vs Saints and Baths vs Glaws!

Sin é wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:How do you Know that Peter Wheler knew what the Sky deal was?

Well, it was hardly just presented at a meeting (he claims he wasn't at) where the directors wouldn't have had time to study it.

Anyway, he would have been negligent as a director of the ERC to not have known the details of an agreement like this which all the directors were being asked to approve at a Board Meeting.

He also would have known it was up for discussion as it would have been on the agenda, so he should have made more effort to attend.

Sin é

Here is a list of who was at the June 6th stakeholders meeting at the ERC.

Peter Wheeler is on the list. A couple of posters keep touting he wasn't there but we have been showing them he was for over 12 months now. If he honestly says he was not there then he is lying

ERC Board of Directors present at the 6th June 2012 meeting where it was agreed that ERC would arrange rites for BSkyB to show European Rugby Cup for the next four years.

Independent Chairman: Jean-Pierre Lux
England: Rob Andrew (RFU), Peter Wheeler (Premiership Rugby)
France: Michel Palmié (FFR), René Bouscatel (LNR)
Ireland: Philip Browne (IRFU), Peter Boyle (IRFU)
Italy: Fabrizio Gaetaniello (FIR), Orazio Arancio (FIR)
Scotland: Ian McLauchlan (SRU), Mark Dodson (SRU)
Wales: Roger Lewis (WRU), Stuart Gallacher (RRW)

Toadfish wrote:

Sin é wrote:The ERC seem to be pretty tight with Sky - the launch of the Heineken Cup was held in their offices in Dublin last week. Previous years it was in the Aviva. Sky will and can afford to play the long game here. They know they can't urine off the unions as they are the ones who control rugby.

There were launches in each of the regions I believe except for England who did a joint one with Wales and the MS.  What does this show?  Where is being tight with the ERC going to get them?  How tight will they remain with the ERC if the ERC doesn't deliver on it's agreement with them?  

If you take the HC out of the equation who is their next biggest relationship with in rugby?  I don't know for a fact but I'd bet the one for the England internationals with the RFU is top of the list.  

I know there were launches in each country - I think it is significant that Sky hosted the Irish event in their own offices and not in the Aviva, ERC's own offices. The ERC are staying close to Sky.

I think you seem to have forgotten that in the event of the PRL (with the permission of the eRFU) go ahead with this new competition, England won't be participating in international rugby so will have no rights to sell. Without the permission of the eRFU I'm not so sure there will be a huge demand to televise English championship players in action internationally.

Bearing in mind the large number of celts living in the UK (particularly Irish expats) who will support all Irish teams, I'd imagine Sky will be well able to hype the Pro 12 so that before long we will all think that the Pro12 is the best league in the world.  

formerly known as Sam wrote:" But Wheeler and co are not trying to improve it, they are trying to kill it."

Sin e, the PRL and LNR have tried to negotiate about the change of system for years. There were headlines back in 2007 of the Franglo clubs trying to discuss matters but they were rebuffed and have been rebuffed ever since. The Lux reappointment farce seems to have been the final straw.

They want to reinvent the competition but the ERC have played dirty and so they want a fresh setup. The way they have gone about it in the media was pretty silly but the ERC and the Unions have boxed them into a corner.

English fans will not follow regions. It will take all the spice out of the game just like it has in Wales. The East Midlands vs the West Country? No thanks, we'd much rather see Tigers vs Saints and Baths vs Glaws!

Sam from last time around:

Miller Rounds On Blanco
9 April 2007, 3:03 pmBy Pat Geraghty
"It is unbelievable that one man should be allowed to bring European rugby to this state. We understand that not all clubs agree. Is there no-one among the clubs of France who has the courage to say no, we will not be part of this"? asks Dr Syd Millar in a statement issued Monday on behalf of the International Rugby Board.
The decision by the French and English clubs to withdraw from the European Rugby Cup has been described as regrettable, unfortunate and shameful. It is more than that. It is absolutely disgraceful and selfish to destroy a tournament which has developed into a hugely successful and special annual rugby event that is vital to the well being of European Rugby. It will have serious consequence for world rugby.
This decision is not about fixing match schedule congestion in France as was first suggested. Indeed it is difficult for the average Rugby supporter to understand why Serge Blanco has withdrawn the French clubs. The IRB made the concession of allowing the French rugby premiership (LNR) to play matches during Rugby World Cup to alleviate match congestion in the 2007/08 season.

He talks now for support for the English premiership clubs, he talks of respect.

What respect has he shown for those who have worked hard to develop this tournament into the excellent event that it has become? What respect is he showing for other European rugby nations who will suffer financial hardship with a direct consequence to player employment? What respect is there for the players who enjoy and want to play in the tournament? What respect is there for the supporters who have enjoyed the event and travelled in their tens of thousand throughout Europe in support of their teams therefore producing a great festival of rugby? What respect is he showing for the sponsors and media who have made their contribution to the tournament? None.

What respect has he shown for the French Rugby Federation and French rugby in a year that is hugely important for the game in France as it hosts the Rugby World Cup in September and October? He says he has no dispute with his own National Union but why is he interfering with the affairs of another Union?

It is unbelievable that one man should be allowed to bring European rugby to this state. We understand that not all clubs agree. Is there no-one among the clubs of France who has the courage to say no, we will not be part of this?

I have always had a great respect for Serge Blanco as a player and a person but in this instance I can only assume that he is being very badly advised or he is being na�ve and has allowed himself to be used by certain people in England not just to destabilise ERC but to support a challenge to the way club rugby is governed through national unions and the International Rugby Board.

Remember this is not the first time the English clubs have sought to destroy the ERC as they removed themselves from the tournament in 1998/99. Some now suggest a new ERC Championship should be put in place. We dont need a new one. We have one. What next, a new 6 Nations run by the premiership clubs?

The premiership clubs in the main are owned by entrepreneurs who are not used to and do not like deferring to governing bodies such as the RFU. They do not want to have a governing body which controls the game for the good of all and not just for a handful of elite professional clubs. The most significant and illuminating statement as to the clubs true intent came in a Sunday newspaper where Mr Barwell of the Northampton club was quoted as saying: Well run our own business and the RFU can mind their own business. What does he mean? Indeed it is difficult to get from the clubs what they want as their objectives seem to change regularly.

Strong clubs are an essential part of a healthy game. However, it is essential that a good relationship exists between Union and clubs. It is not too late for the Premiership clubs to reverse their decision and have the courage to do so and to show the rugby world at large that they are prepared to work within a system where their voice is heard and has been listened to.

The IRB is attempting to facilitate a solution and in this instance we still have time to get around the table to find a workable solution. To that effect the IRB will convene a meeting later this week with senior representatives from the European Unions involved in the ERC to determine precisely what needs to be done to ensure the future of the tournament. This meeting will follow the ERCs Shareholders and ERCs Board of Directors meetings in Dublin this week.

The Rugby Unions of the world will not allow 26 clubs to dictate the course of world Rugby and the present situation has brought those Unions even closer and more determined to preserve the game for the good of all. Rugby has progressed enormously over the past few years and will continue to grow under the guidance of the Unions and IRB who cater for the needs of all the Games stakeholders.

The IRB has obligations to all of its stakeholders and envisages meetings with other senior Unions around the world to allay their fears on the direction professional rugby is taking in Europe due to the actions of the English and French clubs.

maestegmafia wrote:

Sin é wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:How do you Know that Peter Wheler knew what the Sky deal was?

Well, it was hardly just presented at a meeting (he claims he wasn't at) where the directors wouldn't have had time to study it.

Anyway, he would have been negligent as a director of the ERC to not have known the details of an agreement like this which all the directors were being asked to approve at a Board Meeting.

He also would have known it was up for discussion as it would have been on the agenda, so he should have made more effort to attend.

Sin é

Here is a list of who was at the June 6th stakeholders meeting at the ERC.

Peter Wheeler is on the list. A couple of posters keep touting he wasn't there but we have been showing them he was for over 12 months now. If he honestly says he was not there then he is lying

ERC Board of Directors present at the 6th June 2012 meeting where it was agreed that ERC would arrange rites for BSkyB to show European Rugby Cup for the next four years.

Independent Chairman: Jean-Pierre Lux
England: Rob Andrew (RFU), Peter Wheeler (Premiership Rugby)
France: Michel Palmié (FFR), René Bouscatel (LNR)
Ireland: Philip Browne (IRFU), Peter Boyle (IRFU)
Italy: Fabrizio Gaetaniello (FIR), Orazio Arancio (FIR)
Scotland: Ian McLauchlan (SRU), Mark Dodson (SRU)
Wales: Roger Lewis (WRU), Stuart Gallacher (RRW)

I know he was there ... those guys couldn't tell the truth to save their lives.

LordDowlais wrote:
Thunor, Roger Lewis said on tele last night that any region/club from Wales who take part will get nothing from the WRU and will not be able to play in the Rabo either.

No he didn't. I've just watched it (unless a different one was aired than is on iplayer). He said if they don't sign a participation agreement they stop being WRU regions and get nothing. Not at one moment did he suggest that if they joined the CC they would be kicked out. Given that the PRL guy was saying that anyone wanting to join would need union approval makes it a null point. To join the CC they need union approval. Only the FFR have suggested they specifically want the ERC to sort it out.

Again that doesn't mean the unions WILL agree but they haven't ruled it out.

Has Wheeler ever said he wasn't there? He said that no TV deal was raised or voted on in that or any later board meeting.

"Here is a list of who was at the June 6th stakeholders meeting at the ERC.

Peter Wheeler is on the list. A couple of posters keep touting he wasn't there but we have been showing them he was for over 12 months now. If he honestly says he was not there then he is lying

ERC Board of Directors present at the 6th June 2012 meeting where it was agreed that ERC would arrange rites for BSkyB to show European Rugby Cup for the next four years.

Independent Chairman: Jean-Pierre Lux
England: Rob Andrew (RFU), Peter Wheeler (Premiership Rugby)
France: Michel Palmié (FFR), René Bouscatel (LNR)
Ireland: Philip Browne (IRFU), Peter Boyle (IRFU)
Italy: Fabrizio Gaetaniello (FIR), Orazio Arancio (FIR)
Scotland: Ian McLauchlan (SRU), Mark Dodson (SRU)
Wales: Roger Lewis (WRU), Stuart Gallacher (RRW)..."

Inspiring list, including a dentist, Rob Andrew, a rejected Chairman applicant, a thug, a town planner, a rower, a lawyer, an 'advertising exec', a musician and a fool.

Applications from two estate agents and a kiddy-fiddler just failed to make the shortlist.

And what are Wheeler's qualifications?

edit - handy having an advertising exec. & a solicitor on the ERC board   Philip Browne (the rower) is CEO of 4 professional clubs. Wheeler has only managed one.

Sin é wrote:And what are Wheeler's qualifications?

edit - handy having an advertising exec. & a solicitor on the ERC board   Philip Browne (the rower) is CEO of 4 professional clubs. Wheeler has only managed one.

I included Wheeler as the previously rejected wannabee Chairman. Even this bunch of misfits know a total wrong 'un when they see one.

I see that lux today announced the 2015 Heineken cup final will be in the San Siro.  

It's getting laughable at this stage. The only thing I found interesting is where the Italian Union dude said all 6 unions were unanimous In wanting to keep the Heineken cup and that they were united in that view.

Probably just posturing but again i say, one side is going to look likes complete idiots in this

Lots of 'ifs' and 'buts';

ERC award 2015 Heineken Cup final to Milan's San Siro
Updated: Monday, 07 Oct 2013 17:31 | 2 Comments
2 Comments

The San Siro has been selected as the venue for the 2015 Heineken Cup final
Italy stands ready to stage a major European club rugby final for the first time with the 20th Heineken Cup decider scheduled to be played at Milan's world-famous Stadio Giuseppe Meazza San Siro in 2015.
Following a decision taken in February 2012 to award the finals to Italy, the board of ERC has now confirmed the iconic 80,000-capacity stadium as the venue for the 2015 final of Europe's premier club rugby tournament, provided that an agreement on a new European club rugby accord for next season, and beyond, can be reached.
The possibility of a Milan 2015 finals weekend was raised at today's Italian European club rugby launch at the headquarters of Sky Sport Italia, which was attended by the head coaches and captains of Italy's two Heineken Cup clubs, Benetton Treviso and Zebre, as well as by the four Italian Amlin Challenge Cup clubs.
Speaking at the event in Milan, the President of the Federazione Italiana Rugby (FIR), Alfredo Gavazzi, said: "We are especially proud that a Heineken Cup final could be staged in Italy as this is a tournament which plays a key role in the continued development of our top clubs, and which also is critical for the progress of our national team.”
"It would be a shame if Italian rugby lost such a major opportunity to promote the game in their country" - Jean-Pierre Lux
Addressing the issue of the current negotiations towards the formulation of a new accord, Gavazzi added: "Regarding the future, I do not believe that an Anglo-French competition would be in any way suitable.
"The six unions have stated that they wish to keep the Heineken Cup, and they are absolutely united on this point of view.
"The Italian Federation also believes that it is crucial to keep four of our clubs in the Amlin Challenge Cup to allow our young players to develop.
"Overall, I am confident that an agreement can be reached.”

ERC chairman, Jean-Pierre Lux, said: "We in are in a difficult period for European club rugby, and I too hope that a solution can be found and then we can look forward to 2015 and a celebration of 20 years of European club rugby in Milan.
"It would be a shame if Italian rugby lost such a major opportunity to promote the game in their country.”
Today's launch in Milan was the fifth event during the build-up to Thursday's European club rugby kick-off with previous launches staged in Paris, Cardiff, Dublin and Glasgow.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/2013/1007/478927-erc-award-2015-heineken-cup-final-to-san-siro/

Ah, Sin. Beat me to it.

No9 wrote:This all upsets me and really p!$$ing me off....

It has nothing to do with Rugby, and is all about greed and the battle of 2 big companies, Sky and BT, who neither care two hoots about the game, only about increasing their market share.

I think most are in agreement  that qualification should be based on the top places in each of the leagues and not, as the Pro 12 currently do, guaranteeing qualification from each nation. Also, have no question that the revenue should be split EVENLY between each of the leagues to split amongst qualifying teams/unions. Which makes the BT deal just as unfair giving the English and French bigger shares of the money.

Nope - only the English think this is right and a few others with soft heads. Others are prepared to accept compromise and to right historical anomalies but to think that the pro 12 which consists of four countries can be treated the same as the aviva which has only one country playing in it is nonsense. Its not our fault your structures hanicap you. Its utter arrogance to tell another country how it should run its pro game.