French fans reject the new c cup

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

but just remember that EVERYONE has to qualify for all those international and international club competitions. and not all nations get teams into the champions league pool stage, there are several rounds of pre-qualification, and the level a nation's team goes in at depends on the "coefficient" attached to success of all the teams representing each league.

Going on my very limited knowledge of football, I'd assume you are right, quins.  In that pre-qualification means (and correct me on this if need be) that no declared quota of English sides has a God-given right to be in the pool stages?  And yet that's exactly what automatic 6 for English clubs and 6 for French clubs mean in HEC.  In the new understanding, going on PRL/LNR proposals, no longer would Any of the Pro12 nations have automatic places but French and English sides maintain their quota - regardless of quality.

Way back when this debate began, I casually said that if it is claimed that a truly meritocratic (all encompassing) European competition is needed then let's start at the very beginning and state that, to begin with, no Nation has any alloted number of entrants.  No 6 for England, no 3 for Ireland, no 2 for Scotland.  Then base your entrants on results based across all three leagues - no guarantee of number quota for any Nation.  Highest results (points, tries scored, bonus points etc) across all three Leagues would dictate the final participants. (I remember doing a study of what that would mean, taking the results of a few full years of the three leagues and I think I can remember that Top14 habitually had most qualifiers (more games obviously helped that! - we'd have to equalise that too ), and Aviva and Pro12 pretty much had equal numbers.  24 best sides in Europe.  Nothing less, nothing more.

That format would be truly revolutionary, it would mean all sides had a major incentive not just to perform in their own leagues, but also to perform well in relation to results coming in every weekend from the other Leagues.  The competition for HEC would be year long and HOT, not just when it comes to the specific European contest itself.  There then could be no excuses about players being protected or sides playing tag rugby in their league to protect themselves for HEC.  But also it would clear up the idea that some are more 'equal' than others - in that no league or Nation would retain their quotas in any new competition... All nations would work hard for every team entry.

If it is truly meritocratic then there should be no guarantees of 2 for Italy, 3 for Wales or 6 for France.

doctor_grey wrote:

Casartelli wrote:You have to take soundbite/press release stuff from 'top guys in business' with a pinch of salt.

Craig is fond of mentioning to the media that he spent 'five seasons at Racing Metro' during the 80s, forgetting that Racing Metro weren't formed until 2001.

He wasn't even at Racing Club, he was at US Metro in the French old second division.  Probably in their 3rds most of the time.

US Metro were about the same standard as Lydney RFC back then.

I'm not saying that all successful 'business guys' are shameless liars, obviously.

Listen mate, I don't really trust any of these guys.  I believe it is important to take every media offering with a healthy dose of scepticism.  But you just did a service by encapsulating exactly why so much of this discussion has turned people off.  People here have quoted freely people who seem to verbalise their own points of view and then denigrate the quotes of people saying something else.  Clearly forgetting all these folks are in the same fetid bathwater and everyone's quotes publicised in the media are there for a specific purpose.  Therefore, they must be looked at with your pinch of salt, or a barf bag.  

My only point is the boy was involved with Rugby before and is not some come-lately who has money to throw around and knows nothing of our sport.  Sorry if I was not clear.

Casartelli wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Casartelli wrote:You have to take soundbite/press release stuff from 'top guys in business' with a pinch of salt.

Craig is fond of mentioning to the media that he spent 'five seasons at Racing Metro' during the 80s, forgetting that Racing Metro weren't formed until 2001.

He wasn't even at Racing Club, he was at US Metro in the French old second division.  Probably in their 3rds most of the time.

US Metro were about the same standard as Lydney RFC back then.

I'm not saying that all successful 'business guys' are shameless liars, obviously.

Listen mate, I don't really trust any of these guys.  I believe it is important to take every media offering with a healthy dose of scepticism.  But you just did a service by encapsulating exactly why so much of this discussion has turned people off.  People here have quoted freely people who seem to verbalise their own points of view and then denigrate the quotes of people saying something else.  Clearly forgetting all these folks are in the same fetid bathwater and everyone's quotes publicised in the media are there for a specific purpose.  Therefore, they must be looked at with your pinch of salt, or a barf bag.  

My only point is the boy was involved with Rugby before and is not some come-lately who has money to throw around and knows nothing of our sport.  Sorry if I was not clear.

Totally agree with you Doc.  My post was about Craig, not your good self.

This entire Euro/Franglo debate has caused more outrage and anger, based on (at this stage) absolutely no actual knowledge of what's going on, than anything I've seen in the world of online fora discussion to date.

One poster on here even had a bit of a breakdown over this today and has had to return under an alias (with all the same quotes and spelling errors etc!)

Entertaining though.

mystiroakey wrote:

I am glad you are on the right wave length though. I was talking this all last night and i got shot down by the majority!

SecretFly wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

I am glad you are on the right wave length though. I was talking this all last night and i got shot down by the majority!

I hope you know fully what my wavelength is though, mystir.  My wavelength states that no party comes to a table and states that in order to negotiate quotas, the basic requirement before negotiation begins is automatic 6 for French rugby, automatic 6 for English rugby and no guarantee for any of the Pro12 Nations.

The only way a Three League, Six Nation competition could work on a equal basis for fairness to both Unions and individual teams is for a competition that either maintains quota guarantees for all, or no guarantees for any.

If the PRL and LNR want a real change from the past then they should come with real change proposals.  Because right now the only thing they propose to change numbers wise is Pro12.  They don't even seem to think it relevant that in any negotiation their existing numbers should be challenged at all.

My wavelength involves killing this idea that some Nations in this projected European competition are more equal than others.  That's neither a meritocracy idea nor a legitimately fair one.

I still say a chance is there to make every single team across three leagues fight for a place in HEC... Every single team.  

But it seems that whenever I mention my idea people become quiet................. "hmmm, we don't want to contemplate only 4 (or maybe even 3 in a particularly bad year) English sides in the HEC.  That's not what we mean when we talk meritocracy."

It's what I mean though.  It's very much what I mean.. and what I want if compromise creates deals.  So maybe we're still not as close on wavelengths as at first might appear,mystir.  I want England worrying as much as Ireland or Wales about how many entrants it might have in any given year.  That's true meritocracy on a European basis.

mystiroakey wrote:i am not sure why you are directing any of this to me. All you are doing from my pov is just repeating a lot of what i stated yesterday!

as i stated then(feel free to look it up its all still there and time stamped) is that the 3 leagues will get quotas based on merit only, coefficients will have to be implemented and just like the CL this can change based on previous years performances in the european comps.. NO ONE GETS GUARANTEED SPOTS IN THE LONG RUN!

I dont agree that anything other than european coefficients are needed in allocation though. It has to only be based on that.  And we cannot give spots basded on unions only leagues.

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

but just remember that EVERYONE has to qualify for all those international and international club competitions. and not all nations get teams into the champions league pool stage, there are several rounds of pre-qualification, and the level a nation's team goes in at depends on the "coefficient" attached to success of all the teams representing each league.

Going on my very limited knowledge of football, I'd assume you are right, quins.  In that pre-qualification means (and correct me on this if need be) that no declared quota of English sides has a God-given right to be in the pool stages?  And yet that's exactly what automatic 6 for English clubs and 6 for French clubs mean in HEC.  In the new understanding, going on PRL/LNR proposals, no longer would Any of the Pro12 nations have automatic places but French and English sides maintain their quota - regardless of quality.

Way back when this debate began, I casually said that if it is claimed that a truly meritocratic (all encompassing) European competition is needed then let's start at the very beginning and state that, to begin with, no Nation has any alloted number of entrants.  No 6 for England, no 3 for Ireland, no 2 for Scotland.  Then base your entrants on results based across all three leagues - no guarantee of number quota for any Nation.  Highest results (points, tries scored, bonus points etc) across all three Leagues would dictate the final participants. (I remember doing a study of what that would mean, taking the results of a few full years of the three leagues and I think I can remember that Top14 habitually had most qualifiers (more games obviously helped that! - we'd have to equalise that too ), and Aviva and Pro12 pretty much had equal numbers.  24 best sides in Europe.  Nothing less, nothing more.

That format would be truly revolutionary, it would mean all sides had a major incentive not just to perform in their own leagues, but also to perform well in relation to results coming in every weekend from the other Leagues.  The competition for HEC would be year long and HOT, not just when it comes to the specific European contest itself.  There then could be no excuses about players being protected or sides playing tag rugby in their league to protect themselves for HEC.  But also it would clear up the idea that some are more 'equal' than others - in that no league or Nation would retain their quotas in any new competition... All nations would work hard for every team entry.

If it is truly meritocratic then there should be no guarantees of 2 for Italy, 3 for Wales or 6 for France.

ME-109 wrote:The minute it goes into the hands of the leagues (in other words the private owners of the English and French clubs) and out of control of the Unions then good luck to Rugby.

But then that isn't going to happen, nor will it be allowed to happen.

quinsforever wrote:

ME-109 wrote:The minute it goes into the hands of the leagues (in other words the private owners of the English and French clubs) and out of control of the Unions then good luck to Rugby.

But then that isn't going to happen, nor will it be allowed to happen.

here we go again, it's the hysterical brigade...

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

I am glad you are on the right wave length though. I was talking this all last night and i got shot down by the majority!

I hope you know fully what my wavelength is though, mystir.  My wavelength states that no party comes to a table and states that in order to negotiate quotas, the basic requirement before negotiation begins is automatic 6 for French rugby, automatic 6 for English rugby and no guarantee for any of the Pro12 Nations.

The only way a Three League, Six Nation competition could work on a equal basis for fairness to both Unions and individual teams is for a competition that either maintains quota guarantees for all, or no guarantees for any.

If the PRL and LNR want a real change from the past then they should come with real change proposals.  Because right now the only thing they propose to change numbers wise is Pro12.  They don't even seem to think it relevant that in any negotiation their existing numbers should be challenged at all.

My wavelength involves killing this idea that some Nations in this projected European competition are more equal than others.  That's neither a meritocracy idea nor a legitimately fair one.

I still say a chance is there to make every single team across three leagues fight for a place in HEC... Every single team.  

But it seems that whenever I mention my idea people become quiet................. "hmmm, we don't want to contemplate only 4 (or maybe even 3 in a particularly bad year) English sides in the HEC.  That's not what we mean when we talk meritocracy."

It's what I mean though.  It's very much what I mean.. and what I want if compromise creates deals.  So maybe we're still not as close on wavelengths as at first might appear,mystir.  I want England worrying as much as Ireland or Wales about how many entrants it might have in any given year.  That's true meritocracy on a European basis.

i would happily have all of this. no guarantees for anyone.

but the elephant in the corner in all this is the money. in the Champions League each nation's club organisation negotiates their own TV rights deals and the money is all pooled, but then it gets shared out NOT EQUALLY. it gets shared out according to a how much of the TV rights pot came from each country, and an aggressive performance based payout with money for wins and draws even in the group stage.

that is also a meritocratic allocation of the money (based on value brought into the competition and performance within it), but that would cause conniptions that might be measurable on the richter scale!

ME-109 wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

ME-109 wrote:The minute it goes into the hands of the leagues (in other words the private owners of the English and French clubs) and out of control of the Unions then good luck to Rugby.

But then that isn't going to happen, nor will it be allowed to happen.

here we go again, it's the hysterical brigade...

Tell me in terms of your pointless post about wendyball prize money can you tell me what the penalty should be for a team faking a blood injury  

Look mate if you want football go watch football...

ME-109 wrote:I am glad you are clear in that you are interested in English club rugby...at least you are not being naïve or ignorant. This is clearly a power grab by PRL with the French along for the ride (kind of - at least until things get serious).

The fact its a power grab in both monetary and control terms should also mean that your rather childish arguments concerning money etc are both silly and simple (very simple) in terms of what the actual outcome should be. The arguments have been heard before, you have no doubt repeated them ad naseum on here and down the Dog and Duck. Why not let the adults sort it out (well at least one set of adults anyhow)...

Casartelli wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Casartelli wrote:You have to take soundbite/press release stuff from 'top guys in business' with a pinch of salt.

Craig is fond of mentioning to the media that he spent 'five seasons at Racing Metro' during the 80s, forgetting that Racing Metro weren't formed until 2001.

He wasn't even at Racing Club, he was at US Metro in the French old second division.  Probably in their 3rds most of the time.

US Metro were about the same standard as Lydney RFC back then.

I'm not saying that all successful 'business guys' are shameless liars, obviously.

Listen mate, I don't really trust any of these guys.  I believe it is important to take every media offering with a healthy dose of scepticism.  But you just did a service by encapsulating exactly why so much of this discussion has turned people off.  People here have quoted freely people who seem to verbalise their own points of view and then denigrate the quotes of people saying something else.  Clearly forgetting all these folks are in the same fetid bathwater and everyone's quotes publicised in the media are there for a specific purpose.  Therefore, they must be looked at with your pinch of salt, or a barf bag.  

My only point is the boy was involved with Rugby before and is not some come-lately who has money to throw around and knows nothing of our sport.  Sorry if I was not clear.

Totally agree with you Doc.  My post was about Craig, not your good self.

This entire Euro/Franglo debate has caused more outrage and anger, based on (at this stage) absolutely no actual knowledge of what's going on, than anything I've seen in the world of online fora discussion to date.

One poster on here even had a bit of a breakdown over this today and has had to return under an alias (with all the same quotes and spelling errors etc!)

Entertaining though.

mystiroakey wrote:do you believe its about a power/control move or just posturing for a fairer allocation..and that sadly this was the only way it could be brought to the table.

SecretFly wrote:............... is England (football) blossoming though?  Aren't they saying they now need to copy rugby in allowing 'foreign' players to play International, as the current Premier system seems to have drained all hemoglobin from the National game - ever since highly paid foreigners (both players and owners) have taken over the Premiership show?

Premiership football is a good model for PRL clubs...not necessarily a good one for England International Rugby.

ME-109 wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:do you believe its about a power/control move or just posturing for a fairer allocation..and that sadly this was the only way it could be brought to the table.

If it was only to do with Money there would have been other ways to bring this to the table as has been done in the past. It is naïve to think this is only about Money and if for example the PRL get their way the next thing would be the international scene and so on. These are private individuals much like Football clubs that want to control the future of the game for monetary reasons only and to maximise their returns. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. However if you want limitation of the European competition. Money moving to the "big" clubs like football and ultimately the same teams winning everything or in the same positions every year (like football in most of Europe). Lack of development of nations like Italy and ultimately the demise of international rugby to a secondary role then fine go with it. But that is ultimately what will happen here. Anyone who thinks otherwise (hint - the blood substitute) is fooling themselves.

mystiroakey wrote:Quins

Castelli is clearly a wum(i thought exactly the same as you did- i just couldn't be bothered to bring it up dude). i think its time to just ignore him tbh!

SecretFly wrote:And now for a little sewing up on the latest topics and thoughts.

As it stands, Irish papers have as much coverage in their back pages for English premiership football as any English papers themselves.  Irish fans travel in their hundreds if not thousands at weekends to watch 'their' Premiership sides (Manchester, Liverpool, Sunderland etc etc).  Our (yeah, useless) International team comes from players who have either drifted to England or were born there.  Usually not good enough to actually play in the Premiership itself (given all the Latin and African exotic players already doing the business) but still considered better than our League of Ireland guys (I'm not so certain about that at all).

That's a model of what Rugby Union could become not for England but for Ireland if the PRL get all their presents without a fight back.  That's certainly not a model for me- either clubwise or International.  That's a result I'd certainly fight long and hard to stifle.  I want to follow Irish sides, filled with mostly Irish players who then go on to play in International on Irish teams.

So maybe it's true - we can more seriously appreciate each others views (positive and negative) by analysing the Premiership football blueprint.  It makes some people happy, it presents a desert wasteland to others.

ME-109 wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Quins

Castelli is clearly a wum(i thought exactly the same as you did- i just couldn't be bothered to bring it up dude). i think its time to just ignore him tbh!

Its turning into a scene from "A Beautiful Mind" in here.....  

ME-109 wrote:

Or maybe its just a pointless topic...

Casartelli wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Quins

Castelli is clearly a wum(i thought exactly the same as you did- i just couldn't be bothered to bring it up dude). i think its time to just ignore him tbh!

Its turning into a scene from "A Beautiful Mind" in here.....  

 

It's more like that creepy Anthony Hopkins film with the ventriloquist dummy.  mysti has recreated himself as 'quinsy'.

It would be funny, but I'm actually a little worried about him. Mods!

SecretFly wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

Or maybe its just a pointless topic...

Nah, I made some clear points  Nobody may like'em but they're points nonetheless.

SecretFly wrote:The mods have arrived!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_CHvWky08Fkg/TUiMS_AjflI/AAAAAAAAAAk/RmjxqZWJh-s/s400/Mods.jpg

Look more like a bunch who might start a fight rather than try to end one.  

You're ok guys.  We don't need you afterall......

SecretFly wrote:The mods have arrived!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_CHvWky08Fkg/TUiMS_AjflI/AAAAAAAAAAk/RmjxqZWJh-s/s400/Mods.jpg

Look more like a bunch who might start a fight rather than try to end one.  

You're ok guys.  We don't need you afterall......

SecretFly wrote:The mods have arrived!



Look more like a bunch who might start a fight rather than try to end one.  

You're ok guys.  We don't need you afterall......

quinsforever wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Quins

Castelli is clearly a wum(i thought exactly the same as you did- i just couldn't be bothered to bring it up dude). i think its time to just ignore him tbh!

Its turning into a scene from "A Beautiful Mind" in here.....  

 

It's more like that creepy Anthony Hopkins film with the ventriloquist dummy.  mysti has recreated himself as 'quinsy'.

It would be funny, but I'm actually a little worried about him. Mods!

hard (for you) to imagine that there might be 2 people who i) know what a coefficient is and ii) have a similar opinion on attempting to break open the closed shop that is the ERC.

I look forward to a Franglo dominated european competition, and i also look forward at the same time to england and france (they need to get union and clubs pulling in same direction first) ultimately dominating international rugby once the money allows serious development of home talent. And i also look forward to seeing other countries brought into the game and more competitive group stages at RWC.

nothing about those things i look forwards to involves the death of international rugby, in fact quite the opposite.

mystiroakey wrote:Anyway- back on topic!!

Its all well and good posting and debating the french phasing of the question- But I am lazy, couldn't you TRANSLATE IT!!

mystiroakey wrote:Anyway- back on topic!!

Its all well and good posting and debating the french phasing of the question- But I am lazy, couldn't you TRANSLATE IT!!

mystiroakey wrote:Anyway- back on topic!!

Its all well and good posting and debating the french phasing of the question- But I am lazy, couldn't you TRANSLATE IT!!

ME-109 wrote:Translation...

Do you really want to have just obnoxious English Rugby supporters eventually turning into your typical football supporter, drinking and puking all over your beautiful towns and harassing people...

French people....  

Same outcome see

mystiroakey wrote:"The French and English clubs threaten to create Europe next season a new Cup. Against the backdrop of war between English and ERC Federation, the organization that manages the two European Cups, a looming Rugby Champions Cup profile still unclear, Scots, Irish and Welsh have not joined the Anglo-French revolt.
So after 18 years of existence the competition has grown in popularity, this project is it harmful for rugby"

google translation.


different to the bing one then

on bottom = against!!

body = organisation

the internet sucks still

quinsforever wrote:franglo clubs are threatening to create a new euro cup next season. against the background of a war between english federation (i think he actually means prl) and ERC, the body which manages euro cups, lurks a RCC short on detail, the scots, irish and welsh not having joined this anglo-french sling (this is a weapon used historically by mobs to smash windows!!!). So after 18 years of existence where the competition has grown in popularity, is this project bad for rugby?

quinsforever wrote:franglo clubs are threatening to create a new euro cup next season. against the background of a war between english federation (i think he actually means prl) and ERC, the body which manages euro cups, lurks a RCC short on detail, the scots, irish and welsh not having joined this anglo-french sling (this is a weapon used historically by mobs to smash windows!!!). So after 18 years of existence where the competition has grown in popularity, is this project bad for rugby?