Lux said the RFU had promised him it would not support a new tournament

First topic message reminder :

Jean Pierre Lux says the RFU will not support a new tournament.

"I went to a meeting last week where the chief executive of the RFU Ian Ritchie and the president Bill Beaumont clearly said they had told their clubs there would be no new competition. All the federations hope that ERC continues to run the [European] competitions."


http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/sep/17/heineken-cup-rugby-union-world-cup

mystiroakey wrote:haven't the prl and LNR being trying to hold talks for the last few years over this and no one from the pro 12 would discuss it!

Do you not understand this is their own doing!

Conjecture, strokey - none of us are privileged as to what has and has not been discussed at ERC board meetings - in fact, we do know that some discussions have gone on, thanks to Peter Wheeler denying that he'd agreed to an extension of the Sky deal - now whether he agreed or not, and whether it was made as a 'this is what we could do' type statement, it is clear that discussions about the future have taken place

mystiroakey wrote:why?

haven't you read the comments that many just want the prl isolated, as they have been isolated from talks  in the past. They take a stand(the only thing they can do!!) and everyone else is getting hurt. by it and feel dictated to!!)

England give way to much. You do realise that NZ are the most selfish sporting organisation on the planet earth and England are possibly the least. If we want to become the best maybe its time to bulldoze these little countries as they do!


(by the way i am not suggesting we do deep down- but the way people are reacting to this it does make me wonder)

strokey, I ask you once again to differentiate wanting the PRL isolated (so that they come back to the negotiating table and abandon RCC), from wanting English clubs excluded - they are totally different things, which I'm sure that even you can agree?

"eshocked, wanting to see English clubs isolated so that a settlement can be reached (which is a view, perhaps not yours) is not unreasonable"




so that is your view then and you are asking me to prove it! You have written the nonsense for everyone to see

beshocked wrote:TJ  you talk so much £$%^ hence why I can't take anything you say seriously. You talk about conjecture yet make statements like the English clubs are isolated as if they are fact.

Vietgwentrevisted I completely agree with you hence why I find maestegmafia and TJ in particular irritating. They seem to believe they know more than anyone else when they are equally in the dark.

Maestegmafia seems to think he knows what the RFU are going to do! He is taking far too much interest in one comment.

I have listened to TJ - he repeatedly bangs on about the English clubs being isolated etc. When there's little proof of that yet.

Both want to see the English clubs isolated - that is their hope. Only perhaps Ashton getting bottled again would give Maestegmafia more pleasure.

Personally I want an European club competition which involves the Italian and Scottish clubs as well as the English,Irish,Welsh and French but not the HC. I don't want isolation for anyone but concessions must be made by the Pro12 teams.

TJ cannot understand why the Pro12 teams must make concessions - I will explain yet again - it's because the English and French clubs in the HC generate the most revenue but get the least rewards proportionally. The English and French clubs also generally perform better than the Pro12 sides in the HC except of course Munster and Leinster. Also most of the Pro12 gets auto qualification.

I can understand TJ's point of view - he wants to keep the status quo. Understandable as so far Scotland have had an incredibly nice deal for them.

Beshocked, you are going to cause a massive argument that has nothing to do with this debate with the way you are going, on THIS thread there are no anti-English arguments, yet you keep insisting there is, in fact, the only one who is bringing national identity into this debate is you, I understand that you are a club before country supporter, that is your god given right, but you cannot bring arguments from another thread into this one as they are about two separate issues. The way I see it, there are a lot of fans in England thus it transpires on here that do not hold the national team in as high regard as their clubs, in Wales/Scotland and Ireland we see the national side as the pinnacle of rugby in our countries, this is why in Wales, with the hundreds of clubs we have, you see the support so thinly spread, but on international day all our differences are put to one side and we all come together to support our country. This is where the debate's on this thread start to turn sour, because supporters in the Celtic nations support the national side above everything else we care about all the rugby and what's best for everything, in England for the most part the supporters only care about their individual clubs, there is nothing wrong with this, but they can only see what is good for the clubs, and until we all realise this we are never going to agree on this subject.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:"but everyone that is a true supporter of rugby would want a competition in which the best clubs from each country (including England) are represented"


sadly that isn't the case

You'll need to back that up pls, strokey?

Strokey, shall we play spot the difference?  

" I ask you once again to differentiate wanting the PRL isolated (so that they come back to the negotiating table and abandon RCC), from wanting English clubs excluded"


so you want england isolated from what! discussions, but you are happy for them to play in your competition.


What  are you talking about dude!

mystiroakey wrote:" I ask you once again to differentiate wanting the PRL isolated (so that they come back to the negotiating table and abandon RCC), from wanting English clubs excluded"


so you want england isolated from what! discussions, but you are happy for them to play in your competition.


What  are you talking about dude!

Strokey, I can only suggest that you grab a cup of coffee, take a few deep breaths and perhaps read back again. I have clearly stated that it would benefit the position I support to have the English clubs isolated - this would encourage them back to the negotiating table, at which I would hope that compromise can be reached, and we can all move on happily once again with a tournament involving all tier 1 European nations' clubs that everyone can live with - not difficult to understand?

so you do want them isolated from playing!


So its your way or the highway i take it!

My God

OK, I give in, I'll leave you to this thread. If ever we needed proof for the 'horse-to-water' saying, then here it is

I would rather you just explain what you want tbh!

You are stating that you want the english clubs isolated!

why do you think that is the best method of going about this? You will just get there backs up even more! isolating them from talks before has created this situation and now you want to show even more disrespect!

Are you crazy?

Trust me if you keep pushing(from a very weak position) you will eventually break the camels back and the small nations will suffer the most!

alasbut100ofus it's funny you see the English clubs as bullies - The Scottish,Irish,Welsh and Italians are trying to force the English to bow down to their will. 4 vs 1.

You cannot see that the current system is flawed and unfair. You care just about Scottish interests.

I want to see a strongest first tier european club competition but also a stronger 2nd tier european club competition which will involve a more diverse mix of clubs from other countries.

Wanting someone to get bottled is not inflammatory?

How is wanting one party to be isolated reasonable in any shape of form? Sounds like bullying to me - you want everyone to gang up one party - like a bunch of thugs who are unhappy that someone wants to take their benefits away so they want to beat the £$%" out of him.

Standulstermen we want you Irish,Scottish,Welsh and Italians to join us in a new competition. A better competition - one of higher quality, more money for everyone (a better TV deal means this).

We do not want to isolate anyone unlike it sounds the likes of TJ,Alasbut100ofus and Maestegmafia who would take glee in seeing the English clubs given a good ol' kicking.

Lord dowlais perhaps this is the problem. You don't care about club rugby. In a European club competition you should care or what's the point of competing. An European club competition should not just be a development ground for internationals. I do not want club rugby being destroyed.


No anti English comments? You mean like wanting to isolate the English clubs and give them a good beating into submission?

that's a huge generalisation. I care about the English national side as I also care about my club.

beshocked wrote:alasbut100ofus it's funny you see the English clubs as bullies - The Scottish,Irish,Welsh and Italians are trying to force the English to bow down to their will. 4 vs 1.

You cannot see that the current system is flawed and unfair. You care just about Scottish interests.

I want to see a strongest first tier european club competition but also a stronger 2nd tier european club competition which will involve a more diverse mix of clubs from other countries.

Wanting someone to get bottled is not inflammatory?

How is wanting one party to be isolated reasonable in any shape of form? Sounds like bullying to me - you want everyone to gang up one party - like a bunch of thugs who are unhappy that someone wants to take their benefits away so they want to beat the £$%" out of him.

Standulstermen we want you Irish,Scottish,Welsh and Italians to join us in a new competition. A better competition - one of higher quality, more money for everyone (a better TV deal means this).

We do not want to isolate anyone unlike it sounds the likes of TJ,Alasbut100ofus and Maestegmafia who would take glee in seeing the English clubs given a good ol' kicking.

Lord dowlais perhaps this is the problem. You don't care about club rugby. In a European club competition you should care or what's the point of competing. An European club competition should not just be a development ground for internationals. I do not want club rugby being destroyed.


No anti English comments? You mean like wanting to isolate the English clubs and give them a good beating into submission?

that's a huge generalisation. I care about the English national side as I also care about my club.

Firstly Beshocked, I DO care about club/regional rugby, it's just that I see my national side as the pinnacle of the rugby in my country, international rugby needs club/regional rugby and vice versa. I care about ALL rugby in my country. This is why I do not want to see a competition where only the clubs are in control, at least with the unions in control, ALL the rugby is looked after.

Secondly, not for one moment have I read on this thread that people WANT the English clubs to become isolated, in fact the only person who I have seen mention anything about a good beating into submission is you. I have read that perhaps the English clubs will get isolated, but I have not read anything more malicious than that.

It seems you are trying to manufacture a situation where it looks as though everything is against the English when that is so far from the truth, it is not even funny. I understand you only want what is best for your club, but you have to realise that people on here are looking at the bigger picture within their own country and worrying about what affect it could have if only the clubs were in charge.

Beshocked you aren't listening to asbo.

You can't say the celts will be getting more money because we don't know what the tv deal is. I would also question whether the celts will get more money. What PRL/LNR aree offering is a lop-sided, uncompetitive Europe.

The erc are offering more money for the PRL/LNR too. It's about control and I cannot countenance a league run by the french and English clubs sorry. Other than that you have reasonable points and I think we both agreed weeks ago regarding meritocratic qualification.

beshocked wrote:alasbut100ofus it's funny you see the English clubs as bullies - The Scottish,Irish,Welsh and Italians are trying to force the English to bow down to their will. 4 vs 1.

You cannot see that the current system is flawed and unfair. You care just about Scottish interests.

I want to see a strongest first tier european club competition but also a stronger 2nd tier european club competition which will involve a more diverse mix of clubs from other countries.

Wanting someone to get bottled is not inflammatory?

How is wanting one party to be isolated reasonable in any shape of form? Sounds like bullying to me - you want everyone to gang up one party - like a bunch of thugs who are unhappy that someone wants to take their benefits away so they want to beat the £$%" out of him.

Standulstermen we want you Irish,Scottish,Welsh and Italians to join us in a new competition. A better competition - one of higher quality, more money for everyone (a better TV deal means this).

We do not want to isolate anyone unlike it sounds the likes of TJ,Alasbut100ofus and Maestegmafia who would take glee in seeing the English clubs given a good ol' kicking.

Lord dowlais perhaps this is the problem. You don't care about club rugby. In a European club competition you should care or what's the point of competing. An European club competition should not just be a development ground for internationals. I do not want club rugby being destroyed.


No anti English comments? You mean like wanting to isolate the English clubs and give them a good beating into submission?

that's a huge generalisation. I care about the English national side as I also care about my club.

+1 Yep just about sums this thread up

+2

"You can't say the celts will be getting more money because we don't know what the tv deal is. I would also question whether the celts will get more money. What PRL/LNR aree offering is a lop-sided, uncompetitive Europe."


I cannot believe you are accusing others of not listening.


1. it doesnt matter if the celts get more money or not, what matters is fairness, and no the PRL /LNR are not offering a lopsided uncompetitive europe- that is nonsense of the highest order. I suggest you OPEN your eyes and ears

"Secondly, not for one moment have I read on this thread that people WANT the English clubs to become isolated, in fact the only person who I have seen mention anything about a good beating into submission is you. I have read that perhaps the English clubs will get isolated, but I have not read anything more malicious than that. "


why do people lie so much on the rugby forums? I have only really just started posting recently on here again and the whole place is just full of lies and mis quotes and basically nonsense!(by the way i am talking about you! not beshocked!! )


You only have to scroll up a few posts and you will see posts that posters want england to be isolated

Lorddowlais perhaps you personally care about the regions/club rugby in Wales but most Welsh people don't in my opinion. It's because the WRU has become too focussed upon international rugby in my opinion. There should be balance between clubs and unions - not a huge imbalance in one direction.

Looking at the bigger picture? Ha ha no they are not. They only have their self interests. You should admit you have your own interests at heart.

No I don't just want what's best for my club - I want a stronger,more valuable European club competition, that will also help those outside the 6 unions in the HC. I do not want club rugby to be eroded by unions. This is the time for the English and French clubs to make a stand vs the power of unions.


Standulsterman this is where the battle is - control of an European competition. Clubs vs Unions - as it stands you are happy with the competition in union control. I want clubs to have more of a say. I don't want unions to become irrelevant but I do want their power being checked. Equally none of us would want to see the clubs going out of control too. It's about finding that balance.

It is good that we can agree upon things. I don't expect us to agree upon everything but finding common ground is important.

beshocked wrote:

Standulsterman this is where the battle is - control of an European competition. Clubs vs Unions - as it stands you are happy with the competition in union control. I want clubs to have more of a say. I don't want unions to become irrelevant but I do want their power being checked. Equally none of us would want to see the clubs going out of control too. It's about finding that balance.

It is good that we can agree upon things. I don't expect us to agree upon everything but finding common ground is important.

Agreed. I can't say the clubs should have more control. At present voting rights go

FFR/LNR. 5 votes
RFU/PRL. 5 votes
IRFU 2 votes
SRU 2 votes
WRU 2 votes
FIR. 2 votes


The only concession I would agree to is that the LNR actually be disgnated their 2.5 votes as opposed to the FFR giving it to them and taking it back on occasion. That's why I have continually said the noises about a Rabo bloc vote are nonsense. Between English and French organisations they have the power as things stand

Beshocked, the WRU have a responsibility for all rugby in Wales, from the international side right down to the grass roots rugby, that encompasses all rugby, the regions, all the clubs, schools,district, if the clubs were running things then they would only look after themselves. This is why we have an extra international, because everybody wants more money even the regions.

mystiroakey, can you please point me in the direction of an actual quote where people have said that they WANT English clubs to be isolated, because all I have read is that they could be isolated. Can you also point out where I have lied, at any time, because I do not like being called a liar.

It seems to me that the English on here are becoming a lot more aggressive on this debate and are starting to accuse people of all sorts because of the actual quotes being presented to them from the media, yes I know most of them could be full of hot air but they are none the less actual quotes, the only people getting abuse on this debate is the Celts from the English, I am only on here debating my concerns of what could happen, I do not hold any sway in the matter, but I have people on here telling me that their point of view is gospel and that the PRL should have their own way. I am sorry but I cannot go with this, if the PRL get what they want with this, then where will it stop. I would not like to be in a place where even RRW were running things in my country, Gallacher would have a field day, yes the regions would be flying high, but the international side and all the other rugby would go to pot.

"mystiroakey, can you please point me in the direction of an actual quote where people have said that they WANT English clubs to be isolated, because all I have read is that they could be isolated. Can you also point out where I have lied, at any time, because I do not like being called a liar."


"strokey, I ask you once again to differentiate wanting the PRL isolated (so that they come back to the negotiating table and abandon RCC), from wanting English clubs excluded - they are totally different things, which I'm sure that even you can agree?"


" I have clearly stated that it would benefit the position I support to have the English clubs isolated "


that is just from a few posts above on this page as I ORIGINALLY  pointed out.


So please stop the nonsense and start speaking facts!

mystiroakey wrote:"Secondly, not for one moment have I read on this thread that people WANT the English clubs to become isolated, in fact the only person who I have seen mention anything about a good beating into submission is you. I have read that perhaps the English clubs will get isolated, but I have not read anything more malicious than that. "


why do people lie so much on the rugby forums? I have only really just started posting recently on here again and the whole place is just full of lies and mis quotes and basically nonsense!(by the way i am talking about you! not beshocked!! )


You only have to scroll up a few posts and you will see posts that posters want england to be isolated

mystir, perhaps it would be more prudent to suggest some ignore what others have said, rather than just outright calling them liars.

Because i have had it from about 5 posters in the last day! including a mod o- ALL on the rugby forums. And i am not lieing!
 And trust me i haven't witnessed this anywhere else on these forums!

mystiroakey wrote:"mystiroakey, can you please point me in the direction of an actual quote where people have said that they WANT English clubs to be isolated, because all I have read is that they could be isolated. Can you also point out where I have lied, at any time, because I do not like being called a liar."


"strokey, I ask you once again to differentiate wanting the PRL isolated (so that they come back to the negotiating table and abandon RCC), from wanting English clubs excluded - they are totally different things, which I'm sure that even you can agree?"


" I have clearly stated that it would benefit the position I support to have the English clubs isolated "


that is just from a few posts above on this page as I ORIGINALLY  pointed out.


So please stop the nonsense and start speaking facts!

But that was from a fellow Englishman, not us Celts, so why are you and other saying it's because it is an English thing ?

And just to put it right, you could not even get what that member was trying to tell you, are there any others, from Meas or TJ in particular ?

LordDowlais wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:"mystiroakey, can you please point me in the direction of an actual quote where people have said that they WANT English clubs to be isolated, because all I have read is that they could be isolated. Can you also point out where I have lied, at any time, because I do not like being called a liar."


"strokey, I ask you once again to differentiate wanting the PRL isolated (so that they come back to the negotiating table and abandon RCC), from wanting English clubs excluded - they are totally different things, which I'm sure that even you can agree?"


" I have clearly stated that it would benefit the position I support to have the English clubs isolated "


that is just from a few posts above on this page as I ORIGINALLY  pointed out.


So please stop the nonsense and start speaking facts!

But that was from a fellow Englishman, not us Celts, so why are you and other saying it's because it is an English thing ?

And just to put it right, you could not even get what that member was trying to tell you, are there any others, from Meas or TJ in particular ?

I am not going to troll the boards for you. All is stated was that a few posts above you someone has pointed out that they want english clubs to be isolated!

what exactly do you expect!

beshocked wrote:Standulsterman this is where the battle is - control of an European competition. Clubs vs Unions - as it stands you are happy with the competition in union control. I want clubs to have more of a say. I don't want unions to become irrelevant but I do want their power being checked. Equally none of us would want to see the clubs going out of control too. It's about finding that balance.
It is good that we can agree upon things. I don't expect us to agree upon everything but finding common ground is important.

I think this is where the divide is - I think that the clubs (and by clubs I include regions and all the other variants as well as the standalone English and French ones) need more input into the European process and also into the domestic league matters e.g. what is the LV Cup for? however there needs to be some form of balance, which should be supplied by the unions to prevent the "devil take the hindmost" philosophy that has become the norm in football, which will eventually lead to the collapse of the wider professional game and assuming that the top clubs find it expedient to spend their way to sucess (by buying off the shelf SANZAR players) will lead to the national sides going into decline again as has happened in football.

The PRL have a reasonable case regarding the lack of compeitiveness in the RABO and in the guaranteed access to HEC rugby for what seems to them all the teams of all the nations but in terms of selling this to the other sides involved they've made a complete pigs ear of it, anyone with the slightest knowledge of the Celtic physce would know that any attempt to dictate terms or to put a "take it or leave it" deal in the table either was an act of folly or a deliberate attempt to provoke a negative reaction - this was then fuelled by various PRL owners making statements in the media which again were either very naieve or were deliberately designed to paint the RABO sides into a corner - never underestimate the willingness of a provoked Celt to cut his nose off to spite his face, especially if the person doing the provoking is English.

Equally the ERC/Rabo appear to have misjudged the feeling of the PRL about how strongly they feel over the way the HEC has been run, I think the top 4 are not bothered one way ot another as they are still going to be in the HEC, even if they might like more money for playing in it, however the clubs on the fringes of HEC must have been thinking "why are we in the Amlin playing the 13th worst team in France when Zebre are playing Toulon and our B Team could beat Zebre - we are putting all this money in and they are getting the glamour games". The BT deal appeared to put them in a position of strength (at least financially) and they decided that this was a good time to rock the boat.

The French (as per usual in their diplomacy) have played the best hand in this, backing the PRL and riding on their coat tails to get them more money from whatever European competition does emerge, whilst making the right noises to the RABO "we won't enter any competition that doesn't include all the 6 nations" or in other words "the English can sort this out and then we'll decide which way to jump". The Top 14 clubs are using this as leverage with the FFR possibly to get a Top 16 but can opt out of the bigger debate and let the FFR deal with the ERC/HEC issues.

I think we all want to see the same thing, a strong 6 nations at the highest level, a competitive European Cup for the clubs and good league competition for our clubs and I would hope that our personal options and disagreement about how this should be attained do not effect the love for the game that well all have.

I just hope that all the parties representing rugby in the 6 countries involved can understand each other better than the people on this thread. And I have only read the last page or so.   

Lorddowlais yes more money.  Money is very important. Hence the big battle as well. You want to squeeze every bit of money out of the international cash cow you can to the detriment of club rugby in Wales. You say well the regions get more money etc - why is it not spent on retaining players like North? Why can the Welsh teams not compete in Europe? It's because the international game in Wales has too much power and influence.

Have to combat the aggressiveness of the likes of TJ,Maestegmafia and Alasbut100ofus who want to isolate the English clubs so they can make them bow down.

Standulsterman the English and French clubs have effectively 5 votes to the Pro12's 8. The English and French clubs are outnumbered.

Also according to the likes of TJ etc we are isolated.

I expect to not be called a liar, and not to read that people are being anti -English when they are clearley not. 

LordDowlais wrote:I expect to not be called a liar, and not to read that people are being anti -English when they are clearley not. 

If you are going to have a pop at someone based on an untruth , then you are going to be called a liar , because you lied!

Irish Londoner wrote:

beshocked wrote:Standulsterman this is where the battle is - control of an European competition. Clubs vs Unions - as it stands you are happy with the competition in union control. I want clubs to have more of a say. I don't want unions to become irrelevant but I do want their power being checked. Equally none of us would want to see the clubs going out of control too. It's about finding that balance.
It is good that we can agree upon things. I don't expect us to agree upon everything but finding common ground is important.

I think this is where the divide is - I think that the clubs (and by clubs I include regions and all the other variants as well as the standalone English and French ones) need more input into the European process and also into the domestic league matters e.g. what is the LV Cup for? however there needs to be some form of balance, which should be supplied by the unions to prevent the "devil take the hindmost" philosophy that has become the norm in football, which will eventually lead to the collapse of the wider professional game and assuming that the top clubs find it expedient to spend their way to sucess (by buying off the shelf SANZAR players) will lead to the national sides going into decline again as has happened in football.

The PRL have a reasonable case regarding the lack of compeitiveness in the RABO and in the guaranteed access to HEC rugby for what seems to them all the teams of all the nations but in terms of selling this to the other sides involved they've made a complete pigs ear of it, anyone with the slightest knowledge of the Celtic physce would know that any attempt to dictate terms or to put a "take it or leave it" deal in the table either was an act of folly or a deliberate attempt to provoke a negative reaction - this was then fuelled by various PRL owners making statements in the media which again were either very naieve or were deliberately designed to paint the RABO sides into a corner - never underestimate the willingness of a provoked Celt to cut his nose off to spite his face, especially if the person doing the provoking is English.

Equally the ERC/Rabo appear to have misjudged the feeling of the PRL about how strongly they feel over the way the HEC has been run, I think the top 4 are not bothered one way ot another as they are still going to be in the HEC, even if they might like more money for playing in it, however the clubs on the fringes of HEC must have been thinking "why are we in the Amlin playing the 13th worst team in France when Zebre are playing Toulon and our B Team could beat Zebre - we are putting all this money in and they are getting the glamour games". The BT deal appeared to put them in a position of strength (at least financially) and they decided that this was a good time to rock the boat.

The French (as per usual in their diplomacy) have played the best hand in this, backing the PRL and riding on their coat tails to get them more money from whatever European competition does emerge, whilst making the right noises to the RABO "we won't enter any competition that doesn't include all the 6 nations" or in other words "the English can sort this out and then we'll decide which way to jump". The Top 14 clubs are using this as leverage with the FFR possibly to get a Top 16 but can opt out of the bigger debate and let the FFR deal with the ERC/HEC issues.

I think we all want to see the same thing, a strong 6 nations at the highest level, a competitive European Cup for the clubs and good league competition for our clubs and I would hope that our personal options and disagreement about how this should be attained do not effect the love for the game that well all have.

Very good post. I agree with pretty much all that.

beshocked wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

beshocked wrote:Standulsterman this is where the battle is - control of an European competition. Clubs vs Unions - as it stands you are happy with the competition in union control. I want clubs to have more of a say. I don't want unions to become irrelevant but I do want their power being checked. Equally none of us would want to see the clubs going out of control too. It's about finding that balance.
It is good that we can agree upon things. I don't expect us to agree upon everything but finding common ground is important.

I think this is where the divide is - I think that the clubs (and by clubs I include regions and all the other variants as well as the standalone English and French ones) need more input into the European process and also into the domestic league matters e.g. what is the LV Cup for? however there needs to be some form of balance, which should be supplied by the unions to prevent the "devil take the hindmost" philosophy that has become the norm in football, which will eventually lead to the collapse of the wider professional game and assuming that the top clubs find it expedient to spend their way to sucess (by buying off the shelf SANZAR players) will lead to the national sides going into decline again as has happened in football.

The PRL have a reasonable case regarding the lack of compeitiveness in the RABO and in the guaranteed access to HEC rugby for what seems to them all the teams of all the nations but in terms of selling this to the other sides involved they've made a complete pigs ear of it, anyone with the slightest knowledge of the Celtic physce would know that any attempt to dictate terms or to put a "take it or leave it" deal in the table either was an act of folly or a deliberate attempt to provoke a negative reaction - this was then fuelled by various PRL owners making statements in the media which again were either very naieve or were deliberately designed to paint the RABO sides into a corner - never underestimate the willingness of a provoked Celt to cut his nose off to spite his face, especially if the person doing the provoking is English.

Equally the ERC/Rabo appear to have misjudged the feeling of the PRL about how strongly they feel over the way the HEC has been run, I think the top 4 are not bothered one way ot another as they are still going to be in the HEC, even if they might like more money for playing in it, however the clubs on the fringes of HEC must have been thinking "why are we in the Amlin playing the 13th worst team in France when Zebre are playing Toulon and our B Team could beat Zebre - we are putting all this money in and they are getting the glamour games". The BT deal appeared to put them in a position of strength (at least financially) and they decided that this was a good time to rock the boat.

The French (as per usual in their diplomacy) have played the best hand in this, backing the PRL and riding on their coat tails to get them more money from whatever European competition does emerge, whilst making the right noises to the RABO "we won't enter any competition that doesn't include all the 6 nations" or in other words "the English can sort this out and then we'll decide which way to jump". The Top 14 clubs are using this as leverage with the FFR possibly to get a Top 16 but can opt out of the bigger debate and let the FFR deal with the ERC/HEC issues.

I think we all want to see the same thing, a strong 6 nations at the highest level, a competitive European Cup for the clubs and good league competition for our clubs and I would hope that our personal options and disagreement about how this should be attained do not effect the love for the game that well all have.

Very good post. I agree with pretty much all that.

The voice of reason at last. Phew!

Lets hope they can all get around the table and work out a comp which includes all unions and clubs/regions/provinces. If everyone gets some of what they want then perhaps we can all go back to watching European Rugby.

Sadly the 2 (3? 4? lots of) sides seem to be as far apart as some of the posters on this thread.

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais yes more money.  Money is very important. Hence the big battle as well. You want to squeeze every bit of money out of the international cash cow you can to the detriment of club rugby in Wales. You say well the regions get more money etc - why is it not spent on retaining players like North? Why can the Welsh teams not compete in Europe? It's because the international game in Wales has too much power and influence.

Have to combat the aggressiveness of the likes of TJ,Maestegmafia and Alasbut100ofus who want to isolate the English clubs so they can make them bow down.

Standulsterman the English and French clubs have effectively 5 votes to the Pro12's 8. The English and French clubs are outnumbered.

Also according to the likes of TJ etc we are isolated.

But the English and French unions also have 5 votes. 10 to 8. The thing is the french don't see eye to eye with their union but the PRL and RFU get on reasonably. That's not to say they vote the same way on everything. That's where we disagree. You believe the clubs should have the veto. I certainly don't.

Since when have 5 votes become outnumbered by 2?

There be a lot of creative thinking going on around this topic.

SecretFly wrote:Since when have 5 votes become outnumbered by 2?

There be a lot of creative thinking going on around this topic.  

i think you missed the point of allocations haven't you.. its based on leagues not unions.

St John The Enforcer wrote: If everyone gets some of what they want then perhaps we can all go back to watching European Rugby.

Precisely.  Now the 'some' of what is wanted for example by the Italians would be a level playing field in Europe.  Now if English and French sides have automatic places in the top competition.... the Italians would also seek automatic spots in the top competition - parity.  

Thus the very real quagmire, as some people in some organisations want to deny any (not only Italy and Scotland) any of the Pro12 Nations guaranteed automatic places.  Some organisations want the Pro12 Nations and their sides (all of them) to be guests at the party rather than part owners.

It's natural there will be continuing major disagreement about that.  'Automatic entries' are the crux of the whole debate.  The English and French say their 'clubs' have to fight for their HEC places... the PRO12 Nations say their Nations shouldn't have to fight for their HEC places.

Such subtle differences in language but seismic differences in meaning.

mystiroakey wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Since when have 5 votes become outnumbered by 2?

There be a lot of creative thinking going on around this topic.  

i think you missed the point of allocations haven't you.. its based on leagues not unions.

I think you missed the point of the allocations haven't you - it's based on Unions ( with leagues coming in later to add to the cookie jar)

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais yes more money.  Money is very important. Hence the big battle as well. You want to squeeze every bit of money out of the international cash cow you can to the detriment of club rugby in Wales. You say well the regions get more money etc - why is it not spent on retaining players like North? Why can the Welsh teams not compete in Europe? It's because the international game in Wales has too much power and influence.

Have to combat the aggressiveness of the likes of TJ,Maestegmafia and Alasbut100ofus who want to isolate the English clubs so they can make them bow down.

Standulsterman the English and French clubs have effectively 5 votes to the Pro12's 8. The English and French clubs are outnumbered.

Also according to the likes of TJ etc we are isolated.

Beshocked, I cannot keep doing this, seriously I cannot, the Welsh regions cannot and will not ever compete with the richer English clubs and the big spending French clubs, the WRU play one more international a year so that there is more money for everybody and it is still not enough, they way you are going on it's as if Wales are constantly playing international matches, TJ has said that the English clubs COULD get isolated, not that he wants them to be isolated, and we all know what Maes is like, but to be fair to him, on this debate all he has done is put on here what has actually been said by the people in power and he has not to my knowledge got shirty with anyone on this debate.

This is all going to get messy because people cannot understand what rugby is to other people in different countries and can only see rugby from their own point of view, I am going to look at what I do know, some hard facts:-

Fact one:- All the unions from the Rabo have said they will not back this new competition
Fact two:- All the regions/clubs provinces representatives have said they will not go against their respective unions
Fact three:- The PRL have said that their clubs will not join an ERC competition next year
Fact Four:- The French rugby union have said they will not back this new competition

Now if we take all these facts, without surmising what could indeed happen because we do not know where the RFU stand, and we cannot believe that the French will not go against their union, even though they said they wouldn't where does this leave us, and this is what I can come up with.

1st case scenario:- The HC will still go ahead, without the English if the French representatives are not lying
2nd case scenario:- The HC will still go ahead, without the English and French
3rd case scenario:- The French are lying and they are going to have some sort of Franglo cup

So lets take a look at this, because of the stance the PRL have taken, then if the 1st scenario happens then the English clubs could indeed become isolated, then that will cause scenario two to happen, if the 3rd case scenario happens then who is going to air this competition because that is not the competition the PRL have sold to BT. There I am done, I cannot do this anymore because people on here think they know more about what Welsh rugby means to Welsh people than what the actual Welsh people do.

Secretfly

Disagree. I think it's more about control and money distribution than qualification.

Club vs Unions is a bigger argument. Also how much each team gets in terms of revenue is a far bigger battle.

Lorddowlais a HC without the English and French is what exactly? Where's the commercial value there?

The English and French say they generate most of the revenue - take them out and there's not much left.

You say the Welsh cannot compete with the English and French yet somehow Leinster,Munster and in the last 3 years Ulster can.

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais a HC without the English and French is what exactly? Where's the commercial value there?

The English and French say they generate most of the revenue - take them out and there's not much left.

You say the Welsh cannot compete with the English and French yet somehow Leinster,Munster and in the last 3 years Ulster can.

Cannot compete financially

The Irish provinces are established clubs and have existed for decades and based on ACTUAL provinces not made up places on the map like the Welsh regions are.

The have established supporters and backers.

Leinster are based in Dublin, a rather up market part of Dublin too and sell what, 10,000 season tickets ?

Also, the Irish clubs are spread out over Ireland. The Welsh regions are all pretty much in South Wales plus people still support their local club teams - not enough fans to go around, especially with Welsh football clubs moving up to the Premiership

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais a HC without the English and French is what exactly? Where's the commercial value there?

The English and French say they generate most of the revenue - take them out and there's not much left.

You say the Welsh cannot compete with the English and French yet somehow Leinster,Munster and in the last 3 years Ulster can.

Still the HC, like it was in 1999 when the English were not in it. 

Munkian whose fault is it that you don't have any established clubs in Wales? Rhetorical question by the way.

OK here's something I was told on the 'QT' by someone in the know, forgive me if it's been discussed before as I have not been reading avery thread on this.

If a compromise cannot be reached and the Franglo Cup goes ahead then it does so without the backing of the IRB. If that was to happen then the IRFU and SRFU will not be entering teams in the 2015 RWC on the premise that England and France will be entering players 'unsanctioned' by the IRB. The Italians will probably follow suit but the Welsh will hardly do much due to the hosting of said RWC.

Now I know the jokes will follow that the Irish, Scottish and Italians would not have lasted too long in the RWC anyway but I just wanted to add this to the pot as it demonstrates the far reaching effects that the current impass could have.

"IRFU and SRFU will not be entering teams in the 2015 RWC"


talking about cut your nose of to spite your face!

Pete330v2 wrote:OK here's something I was told on the 'QT' by someone in the know, forgive me if it's been discussed before as I have not been reading avery thread on this.

If a compromise cannot be reached and the Franglo Cup goes ahead then it does so without the backing of the IRB. If that was to happen then the IRFU and SRFU will not be entering teams in the 2015 RWC on the premise that England and France will be entering players 'unsanctioned' by the IRB. The Italians will probably follow suit but the Welsh will hardly do much due to the hosting of said RWC.

Now I know the jokes will follow that the Irish, Scottish and Italians would not have lasted too long in the RWC anyway but I just wanted to add this to the pot as it demonstrates the far reaching effects that the current impass could have.

I would like to think that the WRU would do the same, but I cannot see it as Roger can only see £££££££££££££££££££££.

Pete330v2 wrote:OK here's something I was told on the 'QT' by someone in the know, forgive me if it's been discussed before as I have not been reading avery thread on this.

If a compromise cannot be reached and the Franglo Cup goes ahead then it does so without the backing of the IRB. If that was to happen then the IRFU and SRFU will not be entering teams in the 2015 RWC on the premise that England and France will be entering players 'unsanctioned' by the IRB. The Italians will probably follow suit but the Welsh will hardly do much due to the hosting of said RWC.

Now I know the jokes will follow that the Irish, Scottish and Italians would not have lasted too long in the RWC anyway but I just wanted to add this to the pot as it demonstrates the far reaching effects that the current impass could have.

If that is the case then surely that means the 6N would be over too. Sounds like a threat but a huge step (for everyone) to turn it into reality