Lux said the RFU had promised him it would not support a new tournament

First topic message reminder :

Jean Pierre Lux says the RFU will not support a new tournament.

"I went to a meeting last week where the chief executive of the RFU Ian Ritchie and the president Bill Beaumont clearly said they had told their clubs there would be no new competition. All the federations hope that ERC continues to run the [European] competitions."


http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/sep/17/heineken-cup-rugby-union-world-cup

you think it's a good idea . Are you Crazy?

I am struggling to work out the mentality of posters on here tbh!

I would love it to happen and then call their bluff. What kind of insane world do the irish and scottish unions live in. 

Why can't we have our own cup anyway!

I am not saying i want two reduced european clubs- but what the fieck has it got to do with the international game. and what sort of idiots would stop playing in the world cup over this!

lostinwales wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:OK here's something I was told on the 'QT' by someone in the know, forgive me if it's been discussed before as I have not been reading avery thread on this.

If a compromise cannot be reached and the Franglo Cup goes ahead then it does so without the backing of the IRB. If that was to happen then the IRFU and SRFU will not be entering teams in the 2015 RWC on the premise that England and France will be entering players 'unsanctioned' by the IRB. The Italians will probably follow suit but the Welsh will hardly do much due to the hosting of said RWC.

Now I know the jokes will follow that the Irish, Scottish and Italians would not have lasted too long in the RWC anyway but I just wanted to add this to the pot as it demonstrates the far reaching effects that the current impass could have.

If that is the case then surely that means the 6N would be over too. Sounds like a threat but a huge step (for everyone) to turn it into reality

This is what I mean when I ask, where will it all stop if the clubs get their way with any european compitition.

LordDowlais wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:OK here's something I was told on the 'QT' by someone in the know, forgive me if it's been discussed before as I have not been reading avery thread on this.

If a compromise cannot be reached and the Franglo Cup goes ahead then it does so without the backing of the IRB. If that was to happen then the IRFU and SRFU will not be entering teams in the 2015 RWC on the premise that England and France will be entering players 'unsanctioned' by the IRB. The Italians will probably follow suit but the Welsh will hardly do much due to the hosting of said RWC.

Now I know the jokes will follow that the Irish, Scottish and Italians would not have lasted too long in the RWC anyway but I just wanted to add this to the pot as it demonstrates the far reaching effects that the current impass could have.

I would like to think that the WRU would do the same, but I cannot see it as Roger can only see £££££££££££££££££££££.

You give him too much credit. A fine administrator and a talented (apparently) musician, but he's not much of a money man. Does whatever Barclays tells him too, financially. (i.e. give the cash to us at the bank, not the clubs & regions).

Still chuckling at the way he offered to step in and save the day as the 'go between', 16 months after the problems started to surface!

Gents,
This is just the nest step in the brinksmanship everyone is playing.  That much is easy to see, right?

The next RWC is in England.  The threat to not have all teams playing in the RWC is to put pressure on the RFU, to put pressure on the English clubs to pull back from their intended competition and stay within the ERC framework.  This much is very obvious to me.  The question with any threat (not just in this situation but every threat) is if there is real meat and intent behind it.   And none of us can know the answer to this.

Doc- you do realise that no one would care if those two teams pulled out dont you.

and add to the fact that there are empty threats. All We would have to do is call their bluff and they would still play anyway!
England's isn't a threat- Its real, sort it out or we break away and we have the clout to pull it off!

mystiroakey wrote:Doc- you do realise that no one would care if those two teams pulled out dont you.

Absolutely old boy. Conquered nations the pair of them. They should damn well know their place!!!

beshocked wrote:Secretfly

Disagree. I think it's more about control and money distribution than qualification.

Club vs Unions is a bigger argument. Also how much each team gets in terms of revenue is a far bigger battle.

Disagree beshocked.  That's how you want to see it as your vested interest lies in PRL and 'club' success in the negotiations.  We debate from opposite sides, and call the debate as we see it from our side.

To believe (or pretend to believe) that it is all about a BT money pile makes it a less contentious argument.  And that's the present carrot loved by the PRL.  They helpfully suggest there is money for everyone! - more than at present - even for sides that don't make it to the HEC itself.  "It's money folks!!!,' we're being told. "Why ain't you all just rushing for it?"

The other parties aren't buying that deal.  And they're not buying it because yes; it IS about money.  But not the money being 'offered' by PRL/BT.  

The European premier event itself is the true money making venture - everyone knows that - none of us are dumb to the modern world of marketing and player purchasing power.  HEC-active sides (teams that would actually play in the competition) are much more attractive to sponsors, and also much more attractive to players of quality that would want to compete in a premier European event.  
HEC-active sides (or whatever the future equivalent will be called) will make much more money from the very off than sides not represented. Therefore, they will also be in a favourable position to hire the better players and to attract the best sponsorship deals.  Therefore too, that will aid them in hanging onto HEC-active positions into the future (even within their own leagues). Success breeding success as it were - like happens with the habitual big three or four in Premiership "anybody in the league has a chance of winnin' it!!" football.

Sides not getting into that loop early won't then be in a favourable position to catch on to that money making train later on.  PRL and LNR know all this...have done the bookwork on this.

Now, as you peruse all that - again look at the position that guarantees French and English sides perennial qualification for the main European event; whilst certain other Nations fight it out for the privilege of joining the English and French perennial elite.  

You get the picture? - an unfair concentration of money, players and sponsorship from the very get go... embellished and consolidated into the future.

Many of us outside PRL and LNR influence just don't fall for that.  The BT "loadsa-money!!" smokescreens can be used as often as PRL sees fit, but we're all just too bright to fall for it.  It's not about BT lovely money - whether you play in the HEC or not; - it is about the ability to generate much more money and influence (independently of BT's financing) from actual participation in the event itself.

Its nothing to do with being conquered , just the quality of their rugby on the international stage. You have to have clout, you cant just make empty threats. These are laughable.

I can definatley see what people realy are like sometimes when I read their posts, it explains to me exactly why some sets of fans get tarred the way they do, thankfully I know better and that a majority cannot be judged on a minority.

mystiroakey wrote:and add to the fact that there are empty threats. All We would have to do is call their bluff and they would still play anyway!
England's isn't a threat- Its real, sort it out or we break away and we have the clout to pull it off!

England had the clout to put an Empire together, for pete's sake. Half the jolly old map was coloured pink at one time don't you know. These jonnyforeigners should damn well toe the line and do as England wants!!!!

mystiroakey wrote:and add to the fact that there are empty threats. All We would have to do is call their bluff and they would still play anyway!
England's isn't a threat- Its real, sort it out or we break away and we have the clout to pull it off!

Anyone a valium for this guy?  

England isn't threatening anything. The PRL which represent the clubs is threatening something without the express approval of their union (more English) or the IRB. Now the union may yet approve it but unless the IRB (more unions) do then actually you don't have clout to pull it off.

mystiroakey wrote:I would love it to happen and then call their bluff. What kind of insane world do the irish and scottish unions live in. 

Why can't we have our own cup anyway!

I am not saying i want two reduced european clubs- but what the fieck has it got to do with the international game. and what sort of idiots would stop playing in the world cup over this!

Those that don't want to be knocked back to 40th or 50th in the World Rankings??? Turkeys don't vote for Christmas...but then, that's why they don't get the vote in the first place

what are you talking about casterill! seriously you need to calm down because you dont want to be making xenophobic accusations.. But on the pother hand you are coming across very xenophobic yourself

SecretFly wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:I would love it to happen and then call their bluff. What kind of insane world do the irish and scottish unions live in. 

Why can't we have our own cup anyway!

I am not saying i want two reduced european clubs- but what the fieck has it got to do with the international game. and what sort of idiots would stop playing in the world cup over this!

Those that don't want to be knocked back to 40th or 50th in the World Rankings???  Turkeys don't vote for Christmas...but then, that's why they don't get the vote in the first place

so you are saying you would pull out of a world cup and that would increase your rankings

Oh my days. this is getting more and more ridiculous as it goes on

Standulstermen wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:and add to the fact that there are empty threats. All We would have to do is call their bluff and they would still play anyway!
England's isn't a threat- Its real, sort it out or we break away and we have the clout to pull it off!

Anyone a valium for this guy?  

England isn't threatening anything. The PRL which represent the clubs is threatening something without the express approval of their union (more English) or the IRB. Now the union may yet approve it but unless the IRB (more unions) do then actually you don't have clout to pull it off.

you think the prl and french leagues dont have the clout to pull a break away tourny off!

mystiroakey wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:and add to the fact that there are empty threats. All We would have to do is call their bluff and they would still play anyway!
England's isn't a threat- Its real, sort it out or we break away and we have the clout to pull it off!

Anyone a valium for this guy?  

England isn't threatening anything. The PRL which represent the clubs is threatening something without the express approval of their union (more English) or the IRB. Now the union may yet approve it but unless the IRB (more unions) do then actually you don't have clout to pull it off.

you think the prl and french leagues dont have the clout to pull a break away tourny off!

+1

They can do that if they want but they won't be playing Rugby Union if the IRB don't sanction it. Their players will not therefore be elligible for international rugby and the unions will be forced to set up regions/club under central control from which to pick international XVs.

Now while it would be massively damaging to rugby union if they did, it would not be insurmountable. What would be very different is that whatever any breakaway would be called it's players would have no basis for international rugby which is the pinnacle of the game. It would therefore eventually lose its lustre and appeal.

beshocked wrote:Munkian whose fault is it that you don't have any established clubs in Wales? Rhetorical question by the way.

 


Brilliant retort there. I didn't say it was anyone's fault, its the way things turned out with professionalism.


And Wales had plenty of established and reasonably successful clubs, but there was no way we had the population or finances to run 10/12 professional rugby clubs - hense the 5 then 4 regions.

Could you imagine Sarries being merged with 3 other London clubs to become a 'region' ? Might tick a few fans off

The whole RWC threat of withdrawal may be a bluff but thinking about it, the international sides don't make any money out of it. In fact I think NZ have threatened to pull out before because it actually costs them money. Now if the IRFU, SRU, WRU and FIR are going to be squeezed financially because of no European cup then something may have to give. That could be the RWC. To have 4 of the top 10 sides pull out would be a major issue for the RFU.

On the upside England may get out of their group if Wales aren't in it.

"Their players will not therefore be elligible for international rugby and the unions will be forced to set up regions/club under central control from which to pick international XVs. "


And you think thats fair do you!!


its just a club tournament, not the end of the world! club politics should have no bearing on the international game- WHATSOEVER!!

doctornickolas wrote:The whole RWC threat of withdrawal may be a bluff but thinking about it, the international sides don't make any money out of it. In fact I think NZ have threatened to pull out before because it actually costs them money. Now if the IRFU, SRU, WRU and FIR are going to be squeezed financially because of no European cup then something may have to give. That could be the RWC. To have 4 of the top 10 sides pull out would be a major issue for the RFU.

On the upside England may get out of their group if Wales aren't in it.

NZ pulling out Shows real intent and means something. NZ not being in a cup will affect the cup massively!

You are talking apples and oranges and it goes back to 'clout' NZ have it in this sense, but tell me why do you think wales would pull out? the empty threats are by scotland and ireland!

mystiroakey wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:I would love it to happen and then call their bluff. What kind of insane world do the irish and scottish unions live in. 

Why can't we have our own cup anyway!

I am not saying i want two reduced european clubs- but what the fieck has it got to do with the international game. and what sort of idiots would stop playing in the world cup over this!

Those that don't want to be knocked back to 40th or 50th in the World Rankings???  Turkeys don't vote for Christmas...but then, that's why they don't get the vote in the first place

so you are saying you would pull out of a world cup and that would increase your rankings

Oh my days. this is getting more and more ridiculous as it goes on

You know exactly what I mean mystir because you're not as clueless as you are trying to sound in all this affected confusion about what everyone is talking about. They're not agreeing with you, that's the only confusion that's hitting you.

Let's put it this way.  Argentina was forced onto the Tri-Nations sides...it wasn't something they were calling for.  They were happy with their little high-quality rugby event that they didn't want to share with anyone.  Argentina was forced on them by the IRB who wanted Argentina given more opportunity to improve standards and players.  It'll take time but they are better off seasonally playing the big three than not playing them.  

Now cast that same argument onto a European club event and the projected downside of an exclusive elitist French and English money making, player-stealing competition - and how it would lead to advantages in the International sphere.

You're not dumb, you know exactly how elitism pans out.

mystiroakey wrote:"Their players will not therefore be elligible for international rugby and the unions will be forced to set up regions/club under central control from which to pick international XVs. "


And you think thats fair do you!!


its just a club tournament, not the end of the world!

If the PRL and LNR want to form a breakaway that isn't sanctioned by those who are responsible for Rugby Union then yes it is perfectly fair. They can go through the courts and have their cup but if it isn't sanctioned by the IRB (big 'if') it is not Rugby Union! Therefore their players are not playing rugby union and not eligible to play rugby union internationally.

We are quite a bit away from that scenario but the clubs do not have carte Blanche to ignored the governing body of the game and have zero consequences as a result. All this will change if the RFU (union) come out in favour of the RCC and the FFR (union) also change their stance and back it. Then there would be some mediation I would imagine

doctornickolas wrote:The whole RWC threat of withdrawal may be a bluff but thinking about it, the international sides don't make any money out of it. In fact I think NZ have threatened to pull out before because it actually costs them money. Now if the IRFU, SRU, WRU and FIR are going to be squeezed financially because of no European cup then something may have to give. That could be the RWC. To have 4 of the top 10 sides pull out would be a major issue for the RFU.

On the upside England may get out of their group if Wales aren't in it.

Can also see why IRFU and SRU might consider pulling out. Ignominy of failing to get past Italy and Samoa probably looms large in the nightmares of the blazers.

SecretFly wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:I would love it to happen and then call their bluff. What kind of insane world do the irish and scottish unions live in. 

Why can't we have our own cup anyway!

I am not saying i want two reduced european clubs- but what the fieck has it got to do with the international game. and what sort of idiots would stop playing in the world cup over this!

Those that don't want to be knocked back to 40th or 50th in the World Rankings???  Turkeys don't vote for Christmas...but then, that's why they don't get the vote in the first place

so you are saying you would pull out of a world cup and that would increase your rankings

Oh my days. this is getting more and more ridiculous as it goes on

You know exactly what I mean mystir because you're not as clueless as you are trying to sound in all this affected confusion about what everyone is talking about.  They're not agreeing with you, that's the only confusion that's hitting you.

Let's put it this way.  Argentina was forced onto the Tri-Nations sides...it wasn't something they were calling for.  They were happy with their little high-quality rugby event that they didn't want to share with anyone.  Argentina was forced on them by the IRB who wanted Argentina given more opportunity to improve standards and players.  It'll take time but they are better off seasonally playing the big three than not playing them.  

Now cast that same argument onto a European club event and the projected downside of an exclusive elitist French and English money making, player-stealing competition - and how it would lead to advantages in the International sphere.

You're not dumb, you know exactly how elitism pans out.

you have totally lost me! if your teams pull out that means.

1 the league has happened without you

2. you aren't playing international rugby anymore

how does that help your ranking.

I take it you mean "we are threatening this to stop it from happening" rather than what you actually said that was "we will not play in the RWC to aid our ranking!"

SecretFly wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:I would love it to happen and then call their bluff. What kind of insane world do the irish and scottish unions live in. 

Why can't we have our own cup anyway!

I am not saying i want two reduced european clubs- but what the fieck has it got to do with the international game. and what sort of idiots would stop playing in the world cup over this!

Those that don't want to be knocked back to 40th or 50th in the World Rankings???  Turkeys don't vote for Christmas...but then, that's why they don't get the vote in the first place

so you are saying you would pull out of a world cup and that would increase your rankings

Oh my days. this is getting more and more ridiculous as it goes on

You know exactly what I mean mystir because you're not as clueless as you are trying to sound in all this affected confusion about what everyone is talking about.  They're not agreeing with you, that's the only confusion that's hitting you.

Let's put it this way.  Argentina was forced onto the Tri-Nations sides...it wasn't something they were calling for.  They were happy with their little high-quality rugby event that they didn't want to share with anyone.  Argentina was forced on them by the IRB who wanted Argentina given more opportunity to improve standards and players.  It'll take time but they are better off seasonally playing the big three than not playing them.  

Now cast that same argument onto a European club event and the projected downside of an exclusive elitist French and English money making, player-stealing competition - and how it would lead to advantages in the International sphere.

You're not dumb, you know exactly how elitism pans out.

nice words sectretfly, but seriously, what does an international tournament have to do with a club tournament? irb can try to throw their weight around in the international game. it is extremely reluctant to test the waters in the club game.

quinsforever wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:The whole RWC threat of withdrawal may be a bluff but thinking about it, the international sides don't make any money out of it. In fact I think NZ have threatened to pull out before because it actually costs them money. Now if the IRFU, SRU, WRU and FIR are going to be squeezed financially because of no European cup then something may have to give. That could be the RWC. To have 4 of the top 10 sides pull out would be a major issue for the RFU.

On the upside England may get out of their group if Wales aren't in it.

Can also see why IRFU and SRU might consider pulling out. Ignominy of failing to get past Italy and Samoa probably looms large in the nightmares of the blazers.

Hee hee! Ho ho! You just worry about lil Wales...we'll take care of our pools

Fly- how would you feel if you team pulled out of the world cup over this. Seriously? I want a serious answer!

and surely if the split did happen because negotiations break down your regions would join the new comp straight away anyway!

mystiroakey wrote:Doc- you do realise that no one would care if those two teams pulled out dont you.

My guess is the RFU would care.  They need to bring in the money, no?  They want 'their' RWC to be perfect.  

The question about whether the threat is empty or not is something else.  Probably is empty, but underestimate nobody, eh?

My guess, believe it or not, is we might actually moving towards an agreement.  There seem to be a lot of people now talking about meritocratic entry to the European Cup as acceptable, which was not the case months and months ago.  To me this is progress.  If a framework agreement can be reached on this point, then our annointed sphincters can get down to the business of hammering out the financial part, which can only be done after the number of teams in the competition is decided.   That's the big one.

I have to say this is one of the most bizarre threads I have ever read, which is saying something.  I may be half an outsider and don’t usually get involved in the chat so someone needs to explain what is wrong with a pretty basic situation to me.  Ignoring potential law suits/IRB rulings/technicalities/TV deals and just stripping things back to the very basics what’s wrong with the following situation:

- French and English teams not happy in current tournament so serve plenty of notice that they will be leaving tournament
- French and English teams set up a new tournament
- French and English invite everyone to participate in the new tournament if they want

Where is the fricken problem???????

mystiroakey wrote:what are you talking about casterill! seriously you need to calm down because you dont want to be making xenophobic accusations.. But on the pother hand you are coming across very xenophobic yourself

Are you really only 36? Your posts are starting to make you sound like some mad old general in his dusty leather chair, ranting about the good old days when you could conquer lesser nations that only had guava halves and sharpened mangoes for weapons.

Toohey wrote:I have to say this is one of the most bizarre threads I have ever read, which is saying something.  I may be half an outsider and don’t usually get involved in the chat so someone needs to explain what is wrong with a pretty basic situation to me.  Ignoring potential law suits/IRB rulings/technicalities/TV deals and just stripping things back to the very basics what’s wrong with the following situation:

- French and English teams not happy in current tournament so serve plenty of notice that they will be leaving tournament
- French and English teams set up a new tournament
- French and English invite everyone to participate in the new tournament if they want

Where is the fricken problem???????

the problem is celt pride lad!

mystiroakey wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:and add to the fact that there are empty threats. All We would have to do is call their bluff and they would still play anyway!
England's isn't a threat- Its real, sort it out or we break away and we have the clout to pull it off!

Anyone a valium for this guy?  

England isn't threatening anything. The PRL which represent the clubs is threatening something without the express approval of their union (more English) or the IRB. Now the union may yet approve it but unless the IRB (more unions) do then actually you don't have clout to pull it off.

you think the prl and french leagues dont have the clout to pull a break away tourny off!

The LNR will not be pulling out of anything, because they have come out and said they will not go against the union if they do not sanction this new competition, and guess what, the union has said thet they are not going to snaction it, so unless the LNR are lying, the English will have to make a new tourny on their own, have they got enough clout to pull that off ?

New tournament isn't approved by the IRB or either RFU (still might be) and FFR (against it).

That's the problem in terms of it being sanctioned. In terms of the fairness of said venture then you get into so many other arguments I'm not going to start into

quinsforever wrote:nice words sectretfly, but seriously, what does an international tournament have to do with a club tournament? irb can try to throw their weight around in the international game. it is extremely reluctant to test the waters in the club game.

Club players often play International.  
The club players that play in the bigger club events tend to have the better chances of playing International.  
The club players that play the bigger club events tend to improve their game as they play alongside or against high quality International players.
The club players that don't have an opportunity to play in the biggest club events are often tempted away to play in those bigger club events.
The clubs that lose club players, who leave to play in bigger club events, find it hard to amass International sides or develop home grown club players of the quality to play in International sides.

What does a club tournament have to do with International rugby?

Everything.  Everything.

Casartelli wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:what are you talking about casterill! seriously you need to calm down because you dont want to be making xenophobic accusations.. But on the pother hand you are coming across very xenophobic yourself

Are you really only 36?  Your posts are starting to make you sound like some mad old general in his dusty leather chair, ranting about the good old days when you could conquer lesser nations that only had guava halves and sharpened mangoes for weapons.

I take offence to that mate- so please just drop it! You clearly can't understand context

Toohey wrote:I have to say this is one of the most bizarre threads I have ever read, which is saying something.  I may be half an outsider and don’t usually get involved in the chat so someone needs to explain what is wrong with a pretty basic situation to me.  Ignoring potential law suits/IRB rulings/technicalities/TV deals and just stripping things back to the very basics what’s wrong with the following situation:

- French and English teams not happy in current tournament so serve plenty of notice that they will be leaving tournament
- French and English teams set up a new tournament
- French and English invite everyone to participate in the new tournament if they want

Where is the fricken problem???????

its not fair, the evil english and french are bullying us again and we dont like it and its not fair so we're going to get all out little friends together to try to scare them into not doing it.

oh no, that hasnt worked.

plan B? we forgot to have one.

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:nice words sectretfly, but seriously, what does an international tournament have to do with a club tournament? irb can try to throw their weight around in the international game. it is extremely reluctant to test the waters in the club game.

Club players often play International.  
The club players that play in the bigger club events tend to have the better chances of playing International.  
The club players that play the bigger club events tend to improve their game as they play alongside or against high quality International players.
The club players that don't have an opportunity to play in the biggest club events are often tempted away to play in those bigger club events.
The clubs that lose club players, who leave to play in bigger club events, find it hard to amass International sides  or develop home grown club players of the quality to play in International sides.

What does a club tournament have to do with International rugby?

Everything.  Everything.

you mention club players a lot. not once do you mention club tournament.

and please stop misquoting. what i asked was

"what does an international tournament have to do with a club tournament?"

Whilst in fairness Ireland, Scotland and even Wales and Italy pulling out are unlikely to affect who wins the next RWC (although England could probably  pull out on the same basis  ) it would have serious reprecussions for the RFU who have to sell tickets for the games in order to hit the IRB financial targets - whatever they (the Celts) don't bring to the party in terms of rugby quality they do bring bums on seats and a huge injection of cash into the local community.
Ireland and Italy are in the same group and have been allocated some of the largest available stadia - two of Scotlands games are in Newcastle, anyone think that the ASDA/St. James Park will sell out without Scotland sending fans south of the border?

oh no the plan b is to withdraw from all international comps forever.(to protect their national team)



Only the irish could do that!!

mystiroakey wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:what are you talking about casterill! seriously you need to calm down because you dont want to be making xenophobic accusations.. But on the pother hand you are coming across very xenophobic yourself

Are you really only 36?  Your posts are starting to make you sound like some mad old general in his dusty leather chair, ranting about the good old days when you could conquer lesser nations that only had guava halves and sharpened mangoes for weapons.

I take offence to that mate- so please just drop it! You clearly can't understand context

I haven't done anything to offend anyone. I've just pointed out that your posts are starting to give the impression that you are a ranting lunatic, which I'm sure you are not. In real life.

maestegmafia wrote:

markb wrote:I don't think that anyone doubts Lux might have said that, it's just the veracity of his statement given some of the peculiarities of his career and that he's effectively fighting for the future of it.

The veracity of the statement is not out of character for JP Lux. Obviously he has no sympathy for the RFUs relationship with the PRL, but at the ERC table it appears not many do, though this is mainly because the RFU seem to have no control over them.

I think you've misunderstood the meaning of the word veracity.

Casartelli wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:what are you talking about casterill! seriously you need to calm down because you dont want to be making xenophobic accusations.. But on the pother hand you are coming across very xenophobic yourself

Are you really only 36?  Your posts are starting to make you sound like some mad old general in his dusty leather chair, ranting about the good old days when you could conquer lesser nations that only had guava halves and sharpened mangoes for weapons.

I take offence to that mate- so please just drop it! You clearly can't understand context

I haven't done anything to offend anyone.  I've just pointed out that your posts are starting to give the impression that you are a ranting lunatic, which I'm sure you are not.  In real life.

You can't understand my posts context and are clearly only posting on this thread to insult me. As i asked nicely before- Could you drop it!

Irish Londoner wrote:Whilst in fairness Ireland, Scotland and even Wales and Italy pulling out are unlikely to affect who wins the next RWC (although England could probably  pull out on the same basis  ) it would have serious reprecussions for the RFU who have to sell tickets for the games in order to hit the IRB financial targets - whatever they (the Celts) don't bring to the party in terms of rugby quality they do bring bums on seats and a huge injection of cash into the local community.
Ireland and Italy are in the same group and have been allocated some of the largest available stadia - two of Scotlands games are in Newcastle, anyone think that the ASDA/St. James Park will sell out without Scotland sending fans south of the border?

Fair point, but the financial damage to celtic rugby of 1) no HC 2) no national team participation in RWC, would be catastrophic. IRFU are losing EUR4.5m per annum on a cash operating basis already. And their finances (apart from WRU's) are in the best shape of the others u mention.

so no, i really dont think its a credible threat.

mystiroakey wrote:

Toohey wrote:I have to say this is one of the most bizarre threads I have ever read, which is saying something.  I may be half an outsider and don’t usually get involved in the chat so someone needs to explain what is wrong with a pretty basic situation to me.  Ignoring potential law suits/IRB rulings/technicalities/TV deals and just stripping things back to the very basics what’s wrong with the following situation:

- French and English teams not happy in current tournament so serve plenty of notice that they will be leaving tournament
- French and English teams set up a new tournament
- French and English invite everyone to participate in the new tournament if they want

Where is the fricken problem???????

the problem is celt pride lad!

Seriously, do you honestly feel it that cut and dried ? The LNR have said to everybody else, come and play if you want to, but you can only do so on OUR terms, and it is not just about money, yes there will be more per club, but they will lose a hell of a lot more in the long term, the unions have been here for over a century, ok, perhaps they could do with a shake up, but why is it that a bunch of clubs with very powerfull owners want to ditch the unions that has served our game for more than 100 years ? It has nothing to do with Celt pride, it has everything to do with how our systems are run, just because certain posters on here cannot see past their own clubs, does not mean that every other nationality is wrong.

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:nice words sectretfly, but seriously, what does an international tournament have to do with a club tournament? irb can try to throw their weight around in the international game. it is extremely reluctant to test the waters in the club game.

Club players often play International.  
The club players that play in the bigger club events tend to have the better chances of playing International.  
The club players that play the bigger club events tend to improve their game as they play alongside or against high quality International players.
The club players that don't have an opportunity to play in the biggest club events are often tempted away to play in those bigger club events.
The clubs that lose club players, who leave to play in bigger club events, find it hard to amass International sides  or develop home grown club players of the quality to play in International sides.

What does a club tournament have to do with International rugby?

Everything.  Everything.

you mention club players a lot. not once do you mention club tournament.

and please stop misquoting. what i asked was

"what does an international tournament have to do with a club tournament?"

This is laughable   Club players play in club tournaments? - Yes?

So taking that unboard, then start at the beginning of my comment again and read through: "Club players often play International..." etc etc

Irish Londoner wrote:Whilst in fairness Ireland, Scotland and even Wales and Italy pulling out are unlikely to affect who wins the next RWC (although England could probably pull out on the same basis  ) it would have serious reprecussions for the RFU who have to sell tickets for the games in order to hit the IRB financial targets - whatever they (the Celts) don't bring to the party in terms of rugby quality they do bring bums on seats and a huge injection of cash into the local community.
Ireland and Italy are in the same group and have been allocated some of the largest available stadia - two of Scotlands games are in Newcastle, anyone think that the ASDA/St. James Park will sell out without Scotland sending fans south of the border?

When you think about it the English side in the RWC will effectively have been withdrawn anyway as the playing squad will have to consist of players from the bottom half of the Geoff and the RFU Championship as the top clubs in the Geoff will have their players removed from international squads due to IRB restrictions imposed because of this damned mexican stand-off.

Now who's got the bigger gun?
Say hello to my little friend!!!!!!

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:nice words sectretfly, but seriously, what does an international tournament have to do with a club tournament? irb can try to throw their weight around in the international game. it is extremely reluctant to test the waters in the club game.

Club players often play International.  
The club players that play in the bigger club events tend to have the better chances of playing International.  
The club players that play the bigger club events tend to improve their game as they play alongside or against high quality International players.
The club players that don't have an opportunity to play in the biggest club events are often tempted away to play in those bigger club events.
The clubs that lose club players, who leave to play in bigger club events, find it hard to amass International sides  or develop home grown club players of the quality to play in International sides.

What does a club tournament have to do with International rugby?

Everything.  Everything.

you mention club players a lot. not once do you mention club tournament.

and please stop misquoting. what i asked was

"what does an international tournament have to do with a club tournament?"

This is laughable    Club players play in club tournaments? - Yes?  

So taking that unboard, then start at the beginning of my comment again and read through: "Club players often play International..." etc etc

wow, this is why this thread is so funny. i respond to your post about the IRB forcing argentina into the tri-nations tourny with a very specific question which i will repeat for you, again

"what does an international tournament have to do with a club tournament? it (IRB) is extremely reluctant to test the waters in the club game."

and your answer is they both have players in?