Wilshere 'you must be English'

Wilshere loves the limelight doesn't he?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24455721

Foolish comment. If he had restricted it to a comment about Januzaj and his potential eligibility by residence, it would have been OK, but to limit to English-born is just daft, especially given the increased mobility of people around the world in the last 20 or 30 years (although in the case of the English there was also mobility around the Empire).

Off the top of my head, a few international sports stars that you would never question the nationality of but who were born in other countries:

John McEnroe - West Germany
Bradley Wiggins - Belgium (actually, Brad has an interesting background, with an Aussie father and English mother)
Ronan O'Gara - USA
Jamie Heaslip - Israel
Simon Shaw - Kenya
Andrew Mehrtens - South Africa
Ted Dexter - Italy
Derek Pringle - Kenya
Colin Cowdrey - India (actually there have been 3 England cricket captains born in India, being Cowdrey, Douglas Jardine and Nasser Hussain).

McEnroe was born in Germay? well, what d'ya know.

btw

Pringle should have stayed in kenya  

Stella wrote:McEnroe was born in Germay? well, what d'ya know.

btw

Pringle should have stayed in kenya  

I think Johnny Mac's father was doing some work with the military at the time.

Just found another one - Terry Butcher was born in Singapore  

Big Tel? He gave blood for us  

Proof if ever there was that country of birth doesn't really matter.

I find it ironic that just about every team in the English Premier League is staff with foreign players and no-one gives a damn when that "foreigner" is knocking 'em in a winning titles/trophies but as soon as someone mentions a "foreigner" playing for England, they lose their minds.

Dave
Your comment is one of the reasons I care less and less about the success of 'English' clubs in Europe - the likes of Chelsea, Man City and (maybe to a lesser extent now than a few years ago) Arsenal have so little English / British representation that they might as well just be called the 'International All Stars'.

Have Man City developed a top quality England player since Micah Richards (whose career has floundered because of the big money foreign signings)?

I think it would actually be a good thing if some of the money went out of the EPL and the clubs went back to having stronger ties with the local community - probably wouldn't lower the quality that much, as you look at how successful Man U have been over the last 20 years when the nucleus of their team was a bunch of mainly Manchester-raised kids (Nevilles, Scholes, Giggs etc).

dummy_half wrote:Dave
Your comment is one of the reasons I care less and less about the success of 'English' clubs in Europe - the likes of Chelsea, Man City and (maybe to a lesser extent now than a few years ago) Arsenal have so little English / British representation that they might as well just be called the 'International All Stars'.

Have Man City developed a top quality England player since Micah Richards (whose career has floundered because of the big money foreign signings)?

I think it would actually be a good thing if some of the money went out of the EPL and the clubs went back to having stronger ties with the local community - probably wouldn't lower the quality that much, as you look at how successful Man U have been over the last 20 years when the nucleus of their team was a bunch of mainly Manchester-raised kids (Nevilles, Scholes, Giggs etc).

It would. Nobody else in Europe would do it. We'd weaken the league and dip to the standards of Scottish football. It only worked for United 20 years ago because that's how everyone did it 20 years ago.

How strong would the English cricket team be if they only used home born players?

lorus59 wrote:How strong would the English cricket team be if they only used home born players?

Currently there are 3 South African-born players in our first choice 11, of who Matt Prior moved to England at 11 (English mother, SA father of English ancestry), so could arguably be given an excemption. Trott and Pietersen only moved over as adults.

Arguably the best team of only English-born players:
Compton
Cook
Root
Bell
Taylor
Bairstow
Read *
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Finn.

Still bleeding strong in the bowling and the top of the batting order, but decidedly weakened 5-7.

To be honest though, the whole discussion is almost a non-issue with regard to the selection of the England football side. The Jaruzaj discussion is almost certainly just a hypothetical as he will play for Belgium before he fulfils the residence requirements, and we very rarely pick players whose allegiance could really be questioned (Hargreaves would be the last who wasn't brought up in England).

We do need though move the discussion on from 'country of birth' though - as I listed above, some sportsmen just happen to be born away from their 'true' country, usually because of work commitments of their parents at the time.

dummy_half wrote:

lorus59 wrote:How strong would the English cricket team be if they only used home born players?

Currently there are 3 South African-born players in our first choice 11, of who Matt Prior moved to England at 11 (English mother, SA father of English ancestry), so could arguably be given an excemption. Trott and Pietersen only moved over as adults.

Arguably the best team of only English-born players:
Compton
Cook
Root
Bell
Taylor
Bairstow
Read *
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Finn.

Still bleeding strong in the bowling and the top of the batting order, but decidedly weakened 5-7.

To be honest though, the whole discussion is almost a non-issue with regard to the selection of the England football side. The Jaruzaj discussion is almost certainly just a hypothetical as he will play for Belgium before he fulfils the residence requirements, and we very rarely pick players whose allegiance could really be questioned (Hargreaves would be the last who wasn't brought up in England).

We do need though move the discussion on from 'country of birth' though - as I listed above, some sportsmen just happen to be born away from their 'true' country, usually because of work commitments of their parents at the time.

Afraid you can't have Compton either.

Januzaj will not, I believe, play for Belgium. He has rejected every single youth call-up for Belgium. He will most likely play for Albania.

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

lorus59 wrote:How strong would the English cricket team be if they only used home born players?

Currently there are 3 South African-born players in our first choice 11, of who Matt Prior moved to England at 11 (English mother, SA father of English ancestry), so could arguably be given an excemption. Trott and Pietersen only moved over as adults.

Arguably the best team of only English-born players:
Compton
Cook
Root
Bell
Taylor
Bairstow
Read *
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Finn.

Still bleeding strong in the bowling and the top of the batting order, but decidedly weakened 5-7.

To be honest though, the whole discussion is almost a non-issue with regard to the selection of the England football side. The Jaruzaj discussion is almost certainly just a hypothetical as he will play for Belgium before he fulfils the residence requirements, and we very rarely pick players whose allegiance could really be questioned (Hargreaves would be the last who wasn't brought up in England).

We do need though move the discussion on from 'country of birth' though - as I listed above, some sportsmen just happen to be born away from their 'true' country, usually because of work commitments of their parents at the time.

Afraid you can't have Compton either.

Really? I'd just assumed that since he was a descendant of Dennis he was English born and raised (Just checked Wikipedia, which confirms he was born and raised in SA).

OK, have to have Carberry in there instead...

stupid comments by a jumped up headline grabbing d!ck

i like the bit "were english we tackle hard" no that's just you, you dirty fecker, could he really fit anymore cliches in there if he tried!

i have no problem with selecting someone who's lived he the majority of his life and wants to represent this country, something which many "english born" could do with showing a bit more when playing for england

Ultimately, does it matter which country Januzaj plays for? He's not likely to win anything is he?

As Alan Hansen would say, "You don't win anything with kids...or foreigners"

i would say he's got a better chance of winning stuff with belgium than he does england looking at the two current squads

Aye, the Poirot cup...and that's it.

CFCNick wrote:

dummy_half wrote:Dave
Your comment is one of the reasons I care less and less about the success of 'English' clubs in Europe - the likes of Chelsea, Man City and (maybe to a lesser extent now than a few years ago) Arsenal have so little English / British representation that they might as well just be called the 'International All Stars'.

Have Man City developed a top quality England player since Micah Richards (whose career has floundered because of the big money foreign signings)?

I think it would actually be a good thing if some of the money went out of the EPL and the clubs went back to having stronger ties with the local community - probably wouldn't lower the quality that much, as you look at how successful Man U have been over the last 20 years when the nucleus of their team was a bunch of mainly Manchester-raised kids (Nevilles, Scholes, Giggs etc).

It would. Nobody else in Europe would do it. We'd weaken the league and dip to the standards of Scottish football. It only worked for United 20 years ago because that's how everyone did it 20 years ago.

If those players came through now it would improve the United team, it worked because they were world class.

Yes, too simplistic to say that homegrown talent is the answer...plenty of homegrown kids who whilst good simply aren't of a sufficient calibre.

I'd wager that if Wilshire was in an England team containing "foreign" players and one of them scored the goal that won England the world cup, he wouldn't be so against it. Much like those people slating Ashley Young for diving. If his dive gets the penalty that wins the World Cup (tucked away by a foreigner naturally) do we think these people will start a campaign to hand the trophy back as it doesn't fit in with what they consider to be the ethos of Engeerland?

Not sure how Wilshere wanting to hog the spotlight, when all he's doing is given his honest opinion in a presser. Hardly Bartonesque ranting.

I can agree with his sentiment that playing for England should be a point of pride, and I'd hate to see someone play for England as a second choice, because they're not good enough to play for their 'home' country.

But we've got to be realistic. When countries like Spain, Germany and Italy have used naturalised players, why should England think they should be above it.

I do think FIFA need to have some sort of uniform policy though, as whilst you have to live in the UK for 5 years to qualify, it is less for other countries. I believe Spain is only two.

He's allowed to express his opinion for crying out loud

Imagine if Tyson Fury was a pro footballer, the world would bloody combust

he's just the typical little gobsh!te footballer, thats whats winds me up more than what he's said

tyson fury's been on the rampage tonight on twitter, thing is with him i think he's does it on purpose. did it before the haye fight was announced to strum up interest then soon as it was signed he went back to normal. same now the haye fight has been postponed/cancelled he's at haye/lewis/wlad, keeps people in boxing talking about him despite him not being very good

We had this all a few years back when Rio said the same thing about Almunia, really don't see all the fuss at all

Olly wrote:We had this all a few years back when Rio said the same thing about Almunia, really don't see all the fuss at all

He's English, and he showed pride in his country.

That's not allowed scream the PC lot, and left-wing media!

#superjackwilshere

nothing prideful about what he said, just spouted a load of nonsense and cliches about what a englander is despite us being massively multicultural, all english players tackle hard and play hard?? obviously never seen ashely young in training!!

according to jack a young lad at two could move over here but could never be considered english despite it being the only country he knows

also olly, despite being a united fan i still think rio is a d!ck as well

compelling and rich wrote:nothing prideful about what he said, just spouted a load of nonsense and cliches about what a englander is despite us being massively multicultural, all english players tackle hard and play hard?? obviously never seen ashely young in training!!

according to jack a young lad at two could move over here but could never be considered english despite it being the only country he knows

also olly, despite being a united fan i still think rio is a d!ck as well

Did he really say that? I think you're putting words into his mouth

Anyway, yet another statement from Wilshere on the matter. Hopefully this'll put the matter to bed so we can concentrate on more important things.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24469540

well he said "just because someone has lived here for a while doesn't make him english" probably didnt even realise fully what he was implying as he's not the brightest spark

compelling and rich wrote:nothing prideful about what he said, just spouted a load of nonsense and cliches about what a englander is despite us being massively multicultural, all english players tackle hard and play hard?? obviously never seen ashely young in training!!

according to jack a young lad at two could move over here but could never be considered english despite it being the only country he knows

also olly, despite being a united fan i still think rio is a d!ck as well

Now you're making stuff up.

I agree. You should be English to play for England. As for qualifying to play for England I think if you were born in England, have an English parent or grandparent then you can play for England. I think there needs to be a link.
Technically Manuel Almunia or Paulo Di Canio could have represented England.
Also what about the smaller nations having their best players 'poached'? Jamaica have lost Raheem Sterling, Ghana have lost Danny Wellbeck, Ivory Coast have lost Wilifred Zaha.
I would rather we didn't qualify for a major tournament than go with a team made up of Spanish, Swedish, Brazilian, African etc etc (whatever) players.
Januzaj should never represent England.
BTW KP has an English mother.

DAVE667 wrote:I find it ironic that just about every team in the English Premier League is staff with foreign players and no-one gives a damn when that "foreigner" is knocking 'em in a winning titles/trophies but as soon as someone mentions a "foreigner" playing for England, they lose their minds.

It isn't just in England that this occurs, though.  I remember some years ago, an enormous furore in Scotland when Graeme Souness, then manager of Glasgow Rangers, signed Maurice Johnson, a Catholic.

A Catholic playing for Rangers...!!   Heavens forbid..!!  Ibrox Park was besieged by demonstrators and Graeme Souness was seriously concerned for his safety.  Some reports stated that his house had to be placed under 24 hour police guard because the threats on his life were taken so seriously.

Perhaps I've strayed a little bit away from nationality and into the realm of sectarianism, but the point is the same.  Identity is taken a little TOO seriously by some individuals and it can occur anywhere.  Not just in England.

My opinion..?   Well, FIFA have laid down the rules and they apply to everybody.  As long as the rules are obeyed, and a player's eligibility is  thoroughly checked out and verified before he is allowed to play, then I don't have a problem with it.  We wouldn't want a rugby-style "Grannygate", now would we..?

Where I think the lines become blurred sometimes, is when a young player plays competitive football for one country, and then changes nationality and plays for another when he gets older.  

What does the group think of nationality switching..?  Should it be banned..?  Should a player, once he has represented any country in a full cap international, at any level, be locked into that country permanently..?

Viewpoints please, gentlemen.

The problem, of course, is that a "natural" link doesn't necessarily indicate a burning desire to represent a country. KP has an English mother, but he didn't leave South Africa to represent England because St. George blinded him and then called him up on the road to Pietermaritzburg, but rather because, depending on who you listen to - a) he felt (wrongly, I must stress) victimised by the quota system. or b) wanted assurances that could not be made possible for any player.

Similarly Trott also didn't come to England because he suddenly felt the urge to fight the good fight in Three Lions colours. Rather, there was a series of events which led to play for England.

I don't see what makes Januzaj any worse just because he doesn't have actual links. Looking at it now both Trott and KP play at their absolute best for England - and isnt that enough?

Wellington wrote:I agree. You should be English to play for England. As for qualifying to play for England I think if you were born in England, have an English parent or grandparent then you can play for England. I think there needs to be a link.
Technically Manuel Almunia or Paulo Di Canio could have represented England.
Also what about the smaller nations having their best players 'poached'? Jamaica have lost Raheem Sterling, Ghana have lost Danny Wellbeck, Ivory Coast have lost Wilifred Zaha.
I would rather we didn't qualify for a major tournament than go with a team made up of Spanish, Swedish, Brazilian, African etc etc (whatever) players.
Januzaj should never represent England.
BTW KP has an English mother.

Welbeck was born in Manchester although his parents migratedfrom Ghana

Zaha has been in England since he was 4 and Raheem Sterling 5 - hardly cases of being poached for their footballing ability, as their entire football education is in England. I would argue that both have a stronger connection with England than someone like (rugby union player) Thomas Waldrom, who is England-eligible only through a grandmother that he didn't even know about until he signed for Leicester.

I do though have problems with the idea of the likes of Almunia or Januzaj representing England based purely on residential qualifications when they only moved to England for professional footballing reasons (Di Canio was never eligible, as with Arteta, because of playing U21 internationals). If such players are to be selected for internationals it just makes a mockery of the concet of national teams in football, as the top 4 or 5 nations will have a monopoly on all the best players through the scouting systems of their club sides.

If you go by place of birth and forget family ties then we lost Simone Perrotta and the USA lost New Jersey born Giuseppe Rossi.

dummy_half wrote:

Wellington wrote:I agree. You should be English to play for England. As for qualifying to play for England I think if you were born in England, have an English parent or grandparent then you can play for England. I think there needs to be a link.
Technically Manuel Almunia or Paulo Di Canio could have represented England.
Also what about the smaller nations having their best players 'poached'? Jamaica have lost Raheem Sterling, Ghana have lost Danny Wellbeck, Ivory Coast have lost Wilifred Zaha.
I would rather we didn't qualify for a major tournament than go with a team made up of Spanish, Swedish, Brazilian, African etc etc (whatever) players.
Januzaj should never represent England.
BTW KP has an English mother.

Welbeck was born in Manchester although his parents migratedfrom Ghana

Zaha has been in England since he was 4 and Raheem Sterling 5 - hardly cases of being poached for their footballing ability, as their entire football education is in England. I would argue that both have a stronger connection with England than someone like (rugby union player) Thomas Waldrom, who is England-eligible only through a grandmother that he didn't even know about until he signed for Leicester.

I do though have problems with the idea of the likes of Almunia or Januzaj representing England based purely on residential qualifications when they only moved to England for professional footballing reasons (Di Canio was never eligible, as with Arteta, because of playing U21 internationals). If such players are to be selected for internationals it just makes a mockery of the concet of national teams in football, as the top 4 or 5 nations will have a monopoly on all the best players through the scouting systems of their club sides.

The bigger issue is that players who have represented one country in friendlies can switch nationality. Diego Costa wants to play for Spain after playing twice for Brazil!

place of birth is a completely stupid way to define nationality of course. In itself, I'm not really fussed by the debate. If someone feels English and wants to play for England, that's good enough for me. I do however think that once you've represented a country, at any level, you stick with it.

CFCnick

Agree with you regarding switching national allegiances. FIFA should institute something akin to the rugby system whereby representing one country at international level (regardless of the 'status' of the match) ties a player to that nation. In rugby, this tying is applied for all players aged 18 or above representing the Test side, the second most senior side as nominated by the respective union (this can be either the B side or the U21s depending on how the Union operates - something that has caused some confusion recently in the case of Steve Shingler, who was selected for Scotland despite having played for Wales U21) or the 7s side.

The football equivalent could be much more simple - you are tied to a nation by playing for their main international team or U21s in any match (U18s / schoolboys is a bit different at least in the UK because of the 'Giggs' effect, where he represented England schools because that's where he was at school, but was Wales born to Welsh parents etc). No swtiching of nationality other than as happened for the old Soviet or Yugoslavian players of the 80s and 90s, where their 'country' dissolved into independent nation states.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:place of birth is a completely stupid way to define nationality of course. In itself, I'm not really fussed by the debate. If someone feels English and wants to play for England, that's good enough for me. I do however think that once you've represented a country, at any level, you stick with it.

So if Januci said he suddenly feels Spanish and wants to represent Spain is that good enough for you? If Jordan Mutch said he suddenly feels Nigerian should he be able to represent Nigeria? If Tom Ince said he feels Mexican should he be able to play for Mexico instead of England?

My opinion is that to play for a country you have to have been born there or have a family connection to that country or moved there as a child and spent a minimum of 5 years in that country as a child (ie moved to that country before you was 13 and spent a combined period of 5 years there so from 13-18 etc)

People who move to foreign countries for footballing reasons ie Almunia or jermaine pennant in Spain. These people should not represent said country at sports.

Champagne_Socialist wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:place of birth is a completely stupid way to define nationality of course. In itself, I'm not really fussed by the debate. If someone feels English and wants to play for England, that's good enough for me. I do however think that once you've represented a country, at any level, you stick with it.

So if Januci said he suddenly feels Spanish and wants to represent Spain is that good enough for you? If Jordan Mutch said he suddenly feels Nigerian should he be able to represent Nigeria? If Tom Ince said he feels Mexican should he be able to play for Mexico instead of England?

My opinion is that to play for a country you have to have been born there or have a family connection to that country or moved there as a child and spent a minimum of 5 years in that country as a child (ie moved to that country before you was 13 and spent a combined period of 5 years there so from 13-18 etc)

People who move to foreign countries for footballing reasons ie Almunia or jermaine pennant in Spain. These people should not represent said country at sports.

should have added "and is qualified to play for England", obviously. It would be helpful if there was some sort of universal agreement across nations for the residency qualification period, but that's really only wishful thinking. I think 5 years is perfectly reasonable personally. The only reason I'd have minded Almunia playing for England is because he wasn't the best available.