Supporting your player through thick and thin.

What with the recent mentions of drugs in sport, something occured to me.
If your favourite player was found to be on drugs, would you still support them?
Are we just as bad as those sponsors who drop all support for an athlete after they test positive for banned substances?
Is is not just about money?

I would be so torn if Feds was on drugs, it would pain me as I am a huge fan. Nothing in other sports compare, my objectivity may go completely out the window as it doesn't in most other sports linked with drugs?
Would you v2 posters still support your Federer, your Nadal, your Djokovic, your Murray and even your Del Potro IC?

If it was any other sport or any other athlete I would but with Feds I just don't know.
Over to you, thoughts?

It depends on the level of emotion you have invested in a player. See to me if Murray was doping I would be gutted and hugely disappointed. It's the after effect it has on the sport. See right now British tennis is starting to show some signs of life and with the euphoria of Murray winning Wimbledon does infact give hope to youngsters and juniors out there wanting to play the sport. To then see that all undone by doping would really hurt.

Moving the spotlight aside if Federer or anyone cheated their way to success for me would be the ultimate cheapshot. Federer if he did, the sport would never recover. You think of all the records and what he does for the sport would've been for absolutely nothing.

Nadal and Djokovic you feel if they were doping would be met with "Well gee how could you not see it" and I feel for them in that sense since it's not them that owns a shed load of records that Federer himself owns. But again I would be bitterly disappointed if Nadal or Djokovic doped. I would be annoyed in general if any player that did because tennis is a sport I love and nothing suffers more when a doper is found within it.

It's a good question.

Me personally, I find myself having to fast forward through the Lance Armstrong bit in Dodgeball now. Can't even bring myself to watch or listen to it.

Before I though it was extremely funny and brilliant.

Luckily the rest of that film doesn't suffer.

Great post LK.

JJ. My mate likes to joke that LA is a continuing inspiration to aspiring cyclists and dreams as well

Federer on drugs and Usain Bolt on drugs - the two ultimate nightmares for sports fans (Oh, and Australia beating England at cricket)

As a Murray fan, if it were uncovered he had been doping then all my respect for him and his achievements would be completely shot. Sport is all about competing at the highest level and use of PED's is a cheat - plain and simple. A sin that can't be forgiven.

What if the top 30 or so were on drugs?

I would be devastated, as I have put my whole trust in Murray that he is clean.

Naive to be sure, but to follow a player there has to be some kind of belief that he is not cheating or what is the point continually supporting someone who you are suspicious of taking PEDs.

Realistically, the ITF would never allow such a colossal exposure of an athlete in any of the top ten. They would be hung out to dry, let alone the player who cheated. I'm not sure this is ever going to be resolved and we'll just have to continue in the belief that the top players are 100% clean.

But yes, if Murray were found to have taken substances to give him an edge, I'd exorcise him from my memory. But I still believe that he's clean and Federer would have been found out years ago, before amassing the records, if he'd been on something suspicious, such was his quantum leap into that period of dominance.

Maybe in years to come, the truth will out.

My point is if everyone is on the stuff, then is it really cheating?
Wow i just said what lance said  

It would remove any pleasure I get or have had from watching that player.

In most cases, I suspect we have our favourites based on some blend of:

- they seem like a nice guy
- the way they play the game
- the narrative of their career

If they turned out to be doping, that to me would mean all three are not what I imagined.

It's a tough one to answer. Reallistically I believe the top 50 are on something (roughly), which means my only hope is to support a player outside the top 50. Even then, though there are no guarantees, so would have to probably pick someone who plays the Challenger tour at best, which would be tricky (limited coverage, not as exciting to watch, etc.)

So I do a very bad thing, and completely ignore my suspicions, and support my favourite players regardless.

If they were found to be doping, my reaction would be: "is anyone surprised?"...

LuvSports! wrote:My point is if everyone is on the stuff, then is it really cheating?
Wow i just said what lance said  

Well that is not strictly true. I wouldn't say every single pro cyclist is doping.

LuvSports! wrote:My point is if everyone is on the stuff, then is it really cheating?
Wow i just said what lance said  

yes.

It gives people an explanation, maybe even some justification to their actions, but it's still cheating. It's been well established that everyone doping doesn't at all "level the playing field", far from it. The trouble is, if your only chance to earn a decent living out of doing something you love (and are of course quite good at, no one becomes a professional tennis player by accident) is to cheat, that's an incredibly tough choice to make...

CaledonianCraig wrote:

LuvSports! wrote:My point is if everyone is on the stuff, then is it really cheating?
Wow i just said what lance said  

Well that is not strictly true. I wouldn't say every single pro cyclist is doping.

Obvs not everyone is/was but I believe most do in cycling, for tennis I am not sure, but i think a lot more are on the stuff than we think.
But in cycling then if you wanted to win you HAD to dope.
In tennis its different as you have a racket in your hand. But endurance is becoming so important now, i think its a big issue.

If you need to make a living and provide for your family for instance, I don't think its a tough choice to make at all.
This applies less to tennis I think but it could still apply.

Its tough all round. As a supporter, I wouldn't support someone I thought was doping. If they were found to be doping then I wouldn't continue to support them.

If it transpired that every player in the top 100 was doping then I would have a lot more sympathy. However, I would still not want to support them anymore.

I want to hear what the nadal fans think on this. Haddie, hawkeye, lydian etc thoughjts>

I never believe that any sports person is 100% free - I have a 1-100 spectrum in my mind and put players somewhere on it depending on my assessment of the evidence and they can move up or down it as the information changes.  On the whole I give people the benefit of the doubt without some pretty good evidence.  However, since there are a lot of players about which there are fairly chunky doubts, and experience tells us that protestations of innocence are worthless, a lot of those who get the benefit of my doubts are only in the 50-60% clean zone.
 
If anyone were busted, whoever they are, I'd mark them down as a liar and a cheat and, if they had been a favourite of mine, that view of them and their tainted achievements would be over. If every player in the top 100 is doping, that sport as a spectator sport is over for me - I'd still play it myself, but I'd not watch a bunch of cheats presided over by a body that couldn't (er, didn't want to) manage to catch them.
 
If Federer were busted for drugs that would be the ultimate catastrophe for professional tennis, and indeed would probably have wide ramifications for sports and sports marketing outside tennis more generally.  Companies would be asking themselves "if we can't trust him, who can we trust?"  Only Bolt in world sport would be comparable - not least because that would be pretty close to three (only three?) strikes and out for his sport.  Messi and Ronaldo are huge stars, and it would be huge news were either of them caught, but a step down from the other two as my perception is that footballers occupy a slightly different pedestal to the likes of Federer and Bolt, there seems to be acceptance of a degree of cheating in football which makes fans less demanding of generally high standards of personal conduct. Messi had to pay back millions of evaded tax - he says that he didn't known about it, but it's still a world away from the general perception of Federer.

If Nadal or Djoko were busted for drugs that would be huge news of course, but I agree with LK that outside the undoubted agonies of their staunch supporters there would be a substantial body of people not hugely surprised or even giving each other resigned "I told you so" looks.
 
A Murray bust would be huge in the UK, but globally I'd reckon the reaction would would be a watered-down version of what would happen were Nadal or Djoko busted.

I am a staunch supporter of Nadal of that Im sure you are aware.  If I found that Rafa was indeed doping I would be devastated, disillusioned, heartbroken even.  I am aware of how that man is revered here in Spain, what high regard the Royalty have for him how he is a personal friend and frequent visitor at the palace. The Spanish people do not in the present climate have a lot to say thank you for such is the economic state of this country.  But he is their prize and I would be so hurt for them as well as myself as a fan.

Do I believe he is NO I DONT... but then I didn´t want to believe that there was no Santa either.  He has played under this shadow for so long it seems unfair because if he is on PEDS others must be and I dont want to believe it from any of them for the sake of the sport.
Would I continue to watch him NO I WOULDNT and I daresay I wouldn´t watch APT tennis either because the whole sport and every player would be under suspicion.I sincerely hope that this wonderful sport we all so dearly love IS CLEAN, and remains clean, for all the players and fans alike.

Haddie-nuff wrote:I am  a staunch supporter  of Nadal of that Im sure you are aware.  If I found that Rafa was indeed doping I would be devastated, disillusioned, heartbroken even.  I am aware of how that man is revered here in Spain, what high regard the Royalty have for him how he is a personal friend and frequent visitor at the palace. The Spanish people do not in the present climate have a lot to say thank you for such is the economic state of this country.  But he is their prize and I would be so hurt for them as well as myself as a fan.

Do I believe he is NO I DONT... but then I didn´t want to believe that there was no Santa either.  He has played under this shadow for so long it seems unfair because if he is on PEDS others must be and I dont want to believe it from any of them for the sake of the sport.
Would I continue to watch him NO I WOULDNT and I daresay I wouldn´t watch APT tennis either because the whole sport and every player would be under suspicion.I sincerely hope that this wonderful sport we all so dearly love IS CLEAN, and remains clean, for all the players and fans alike.

Sorry to say, as someone who was around many different sports and the athletes that make them up- there is no such thing as a clean sport. I love tennis more than any other activity, but I just know what happens in professional sports.. Any business, any entity- whether is be a corporation, a sport, the church, the Vaitican, the government- where there are millions to be made, glory to be achieved- there is going to be corruption, cheating,lying.. It's just part of human nature. I can say with 100% certainty that there is not a sport you watch that doesn't have lying, cheating, and manipulation going on behind the scenes.. from the top to the bottom.

Well thanks for stealing my dream  

Haddie-nuff wrote:Well thanks for stealing my dream  

I truly am sorry, but as you mentioned, everyone needs to learn the reality of Santa Claus at some point!

None of it takes away from the beauty of the sport...continue to enjoy.

I would stop supporting a player if found to be on drugs (for sure). I think some of us would find that more difficult in the heart than the head though.

Good posts v2ers, im still holding out for Hawkeye  

I would be gutted if Nadal was caught doping like anyone would be for any player followed. But then I also have a different take...these drugs taken don't turn a world 50 into a #1...the talent and raw physical material has to be there in the first place too. I bet LA would be almost as successful had he, and everyone else, not taken EPO. It's cheating alright but I don't believe it turns sows ears into silk purses...all these top guys are bloody great players regardless. So I would still admire their ability come what may...but clearly their records are tarnished, and rightly so.

TRuffin wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:Well thanks for stealing my dream  

I truly am sorry, but as you mentioned, everyone needs to learn the reality of Santa Claus at some point!

None of it takes away from the beauty of the sport...continue to enjoy.

I also learned the reality of cynics in this world Truffin and a very faint line divides them from the realists.
At the moment I  choose to carry on believing in "Santa" until I dont find any presents under the tree
Hopefully Santa lives longer than I do.. he hasn´t far to go

I do find MfC's comment that he thinks probably the top 50 are on something astonishing. That suggests that either there are no individuals with sufficient morales not to cheat or that the drugs are so good that its imossible to break into the upper echelons without taking them.

I don't believe that either of those are the case. For a start, there are clearly players in the top 50 who aren't particularly good movers and/or get knackered in long matches.

"Moral values are superseded by dollar values."

"Moral values are superseded by dollar values."

"It's not about the money money money"

You are the worst kind of person.

I am the best kind of person for implanting such cheese.

If I knew any of my favourite players had been doping, I'd be really disappointed. I'd probably have some sympathy based on them ruining their career through bad choices but I would still prefer that they never played again.

I think the problem is that it rarely comes out like that - with any certainty of intentional doping - because dopers never (or rarely) confess. What if my favourite had a positive test like Cilic but maintained the banned substance was ingested by mistake, or skipped a test like Troicki? (I believe quite a few top players have missed out of competition tests but that's not the same as refusing one). I really don't know how I'd feel in that situation.

Out of interest yvonnet who do you support? And would you renounce your support for that player if found guilty?

It depends how you view it I guess and whether you believe them. If they have been a bit dumb rather than deliberately seeking to cheat then its a different situation.

YvonneT. Good points.

LuvSports. Out of interest who do you support? Or do you think the whole lot are dirty rotten cheats and you might just be the one to expose them all? And maybe you also think that anyone who doesn't agree with this is naive or stupid or both? 

.... but maybe you think a player you don't like is the most dirty and rotten cheat of all? And maybe you think that anyone who doesn't agree with this is "pathetic"?

But then maybe I'm just being overly suspicious

HE, maybe you've been reading the other forums too much

LuvSports! wrote:
Would you v2 posters still support your Federer, your Nadal, your Djokovic, your Murray and even your Del Potro IC?

If it was any other sport or any other athlete I would but with Feds I just don't know.
Over to you, thoughts?

Really a very good question LS, will I support Del Boy if he is found to abuse the system with drugs and stuffs?  the honest answer at the moment is " I don't know", a part of the reason why I like Del Potro is for the way he conducts himself on Victories and defeats, I would say I liked him coz he is a guy who tries hard and end of the day the results don't matter.

So if he found to have abused drugs to get advantage over other athletes certainly that respect factor would die down on him, I would realize that he cheated his wins and hence all his sportsmanship are fake, I would still forgive him now and support him if he comes forward and openly gives a speech that he made a mistake in his early career to succeed and ready to apologize for the mistake , if he does that then I would love him more, but this have to come in his playing career and not after its over.

I am certainly against drugs and unfair play so not sure I would support Del Po if he gets stuck in such a scandal and not ready to come forward himself during his playing career.

hawkeye wrote:YvonneT. Good points.

LuvSports. Out of interest who do you support? Or do you think the whole lot are dirty rotten cheats and you might just be the one to expose them all? And maybe you also think that anyone who doesn't agree with this is naive or stupid or both? 

.... but maybe you think a player you don't like is the most dirty and rotten cheat of all? And maybe you think that anyone who doesn't agree with this is "pathetic"?

But then maybe I'm just being overly suspicious

You read the article right? The part where I said I am a huge federer fan.
Clearly this has wound you up so I don't think I will respond to your attempted wind up .

Interesting stuff IC.

if a player a support is found using something illegal, I would stop supporting him

LuvSports! wrote:

hawkeye wrote:YvonneT. Good points.

LuvSports. Out of interest who do you support? Or do you think the whole lot are dirty rotten cheats and you might just be the one to expose them all? And maybe you also think that anyone who doesn't agree with this is naive or stupid or both? 

.... but maybe you think a player you don't like is the most dirty and rotten cheat of all? And maybe you think that anyone who doesn't agree with this is "pathetic"?

But then maybe I'm just being overly suspicious

You read the article right? The part where I said I am a huge federer fan.
Clearly this has wound you up so I don't think I will respond to your attempted wind up .

Oops! I did read it but forgot you said you liked Federer. How come you are so suspicious of other players and yet confess that you would be "torn if Federer was on drugs"? And why would questioning that loyalty may affect your judgement be a "wind up"? Your article is about this very concept. I have no idea how without any evidence you can be so targeted with your suspicion. Would you be equally as "torn" if say Nadal was exposed as having used something prohibited?

Seriously please re-read the article. I explain that re feds on drugs. Therefore as my objectivity goes out the window for feds, as i am a huge fan of his, for other players, for instance nadal, it wouldn't as I don't support him.
If you massively support someone, you get taken in by it all and you can lose sight of things and be blinded by it all.
Re the evidence bit - because I don't think you know that much about the issue of drugs in sport. I have lots of evidence of drugs in lots of sports and so much of it is hushed up its a joke.

^ Well you said it. You have been taken in by one player and your objectivity has gone out the window. I'm sure you don't have any evidence about other players so all you have is your suspicion. Why should anyone trust your suspicion when you admit that you have been taken in by one player and been blinded by it all?

You really don't get my posts do you?
FOr other players I am objective just less so for Federer.
Just ignore my points and continue to lose your cool

^ I'm not ignoring your posts and I am always cool...

If any player was caught and proved to be a cheat, I would stop supporting them and would call for life time bans, and to repay every single penny of prize money they ever won

It is not just the other players that they cheat, they also force youngsters to HAVE to take drugs - just to complete on a level playing field, 

This means any honest player or sports person knows they can not compete asthey do not take drugs

This is the real damage drugs in sports do, as it puts in danger the lives of the young athletes coming through - as they know the be fair to their chances they have to take drugs

invisiblecoolers wrote:

LuvSports! wrote:
Would you v2 posters still support your Federer, your Nadal, your Djokovic, your Murray and even your Del Potro IC?

If it was any other sport or any other athlete I would but with Feds I just don't know.
Over to you, thoughts?

Really a very good question LS, will I support Del Boy if he is found to abuse the system with drugs and stuffs?  the honest answer at the moment is " I don't know", a part of the reason why I like Del Potro is for the way he conducts himself on Victories and defeats, I would say I liked him coz he is a guy who tries hard and end of the day the results don't matter.

So if he found to have abused drugs to get advantage over other athletes certainly that respect factor would die down on him, I would realize that he cheated his wins and hence all his sportsmanship are fake, I would still forgive him now and support him if he comes forward and openly gives a speech that he made a mistake in his early career to succeed and ready to apologize for the mistake , if he does that then I would love him more, but this have to come in his playing career and not after its over.

I am certainly against drugs and unfair play so not sure I would support Del Po if he gets stuck in such a scandal and not ready to come forward himself during his playing career.

Sorry IC but I have to take you to task on this after re-reading it.
Pretty much every single sportsmen who gets caught either says they didn't know what they took, say well everyone else took it, or come clean. What makes Delpo any better or different if he was caught? |Countless players have wept and come clean and admitted to their misdemeanors, but they are really only sad they got caught.

Oh I almost missed this thread. That is very good question and a very hard one too. Having given it some thought, my answer still is "I do not know".

Similar to barry I tend to grade players in my mind with some estimate of the "probability" that I think they dope. Maybe I am more cynical than most, but for any player in top 10, I would assign more than 50% chance that they are doping (obviously, I have no actual evidence, so the number comes maybe more from my view of how life and people funtion rather than from anything else).

In that sense, I would not be very surprised if I found out that my favorite player (Federer) was doping. Yet, in spite of that, without doubt it would very much impact my support for him.

But I do not know how exactly that impact would manifest itself. I am pretty sure I would no longer root for him nor care about his game or results. But - although hoping I am wrong here - I also suspect that instead of just switching my support to someone else, I might care for tennis much less.

LuvSports! wrote:Pretty much every single sportsmen who gets caught either says they didn't know what they took, say well everyone else took it, or come clean. What makes Delpo any better or different if he was caught?

Maybe I am wrong but I understood IC's scenario differently. I thought in IC's hypothetical case the player comes out voluntarily - without having been caught - and admits that he used to dope in his early career.

I think that is a very interesting hypothetical. On one hand, the player would be a doper, on the other hand it would take some guts to volunteer that sort of info. I think, if that were the case, I would not actually hold it very much against the player. Perhaps because I expect most of them to dope, the one that comes out on his own and admits to it actually looks quite good in my eyes.