Tactics against big 3 SH teams

First topic message reminder :

The SH teams will shortly embark on the November tour. The NH coaches will have watched the RC and thought about the best way to counter these teams. Is it right though to judge the teams on what the coaches have seen?

Looking at the games played in the middle of the tournament will most likely mirror the conditions in Europe. It's all very well to look at the Ellis Park match or the Dunedin match last Saturday and judge the team on that. Wales has the stadium that closes its roof but the condition of the pitch is invariably poor. Add in rain or dew from the cold and we are likely to see more games played in trying conditions.

That may be welcome news because SA and Australia showed that NZ is not the only team comfortable at playing a high tempo game that opens up. Yet playing that way will ensure defences open up and points are easy to come by.

If you play an attritional game, you close those gaps as defensive lines are harder to break. That has suited teams like Scotland and Ireland have proved adept at playing this game but is that the best chance of success. SA are opponents who have discovered a more varied attack but they have proven comfortable in arm wrestling games. Australia might be seen as the best hope of engaging in a set piece contest but they have proven in the past that they are useful at minimizing their weaknesses. NZ are uncomfortable when you flood the breakdown and close out the space in midfield but going in with a defensive mindset only bears fruit a couple of times out of about 20.

So is variety the way to go or lumping your eggs into one basket? The poor showing against SH sides in general can be attributed to the former or the latter. Australia seem the likely candidate this year as the target win. But will Schmidt or Lancaster be thinking defence or attack or both will win out against NZ?

If the conditions are trying I think it's tempting to say do the basics right, minimize errors and try to force mistakes from the opposition. But is this being too defensively minded? Is saying we'll make fewer errors the same as we'll do more things right? I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the team meetings or training sessions to know what the plan of attack is.

What do you think the best tactics are for playing Australia, SA and NZ respectively this autumn?

"we expected a little better as did you probably"


ermm we only lost one game since. its not the end of the world..(yes the game we lost we got battered in!! )


But no one(well not me!!) is making excuses for that loss. Sometimes you just cant beat a team that has more intensity.. As england did v NZ on that fateful day!

OK...to be clear... out of 100% no chance = zero doesn't it... 

I promise I won't be saying that!

mystiroakey wrote:"we expected a little better as did you probably"


ermm we only lost one game since. its not the end of the world..(yes the game we lost we got battered in!! )


But no one(well not me!!) is making excuses for that loss. Sometimes you just cant beat a team that has more intensity.. As england did v NZ on that fateful day!

True it is only one loss since. Fine line this game. Interested in knowing how BLs trip influences the current squad actually.

Dude say what you want- Its just we had a deal dude!!

I am going to release you from the chains though. Fill your boots with e coli talk!!

I know you want to.

i am going to be really interested to see how the new scrum rules work in internationals. watching Toulouse absolutely dominate Saracens makes me think that size, strength and technique are going to be far more consistently telling without the random collisions derailing the scrums. same with toulon and blues this weekend. how is the NZ front row and how did the new rules impact scrummages in the RC?

Our scrum was a mixed bag. Woody is getting on but Faumuina has come on nicely. will be interested in the new cap moody who could keep owen franks honest.

The scrum changes didnt stop the penalties. Normally the damage is done on the opposing feed as its hard to get the second shove when you have to hook the ball. Overall I think the changes are positives but still a nightmare for the ref.

Comfort wrote:I'd like to see Wales come out swinging at SA, I want forwards carrying the ball with purpose, coming at angles from outside to in at pace, sucking in the bok defenders (so much easier said than done) then we can get our runners out wide in some space, the boks backline dont look anything special defensively apart from JDV, I'd like to see Engelbrecht/Le Roux targetted.

In defence I'd like to see much of the same with more of an emphasis on 'ripping' the ball in tackle, the boks look very vulnerable to the '2 pass and go' counter-attacking ritual at the moment, they're attack minded and its that switch back to defense they can really be hurt, we've got the players who can hurt any team in the world on the counter so I'd liek to see us really play for those opportunities, that brings risks in itself with SA.

GAME ON MATE.

Looking forward to it.  

GloriousEmpire wrote:Well currently stroppy because despite buying a new house in zone one london it's apparently impossible to get Sky TV or broadband internet installed. I may as well be living in a third world country. It's ridiculous. Not to mention the state of the circle line. It's a total failure of management, just constant, ubiquitous and all consuming that gets me down.

Lovely stuff - another utterly useless, venal City import buys a zone 1 property and tells everyone via a 'humblebrag' on his first world problems. You don't take the circle line if you live in Zone 1, you're ferried about via taxis. You'll be fine dear.

Oh, and there was an inaccuracy on your previous post. Your guys got a 24hr stomach bug. If they had e-coli i think it might have affected their performance.

he bought a property in zone 1!!!

oh my god unless its a box it will be worth a few mill!!

Why do you waste you time on here?

and dont be so ridiculous off course you can get broadband and sky- if you have the money to buy the pad - you will have the money to sort it out.

My company can carry out non standard install work.. let me know and i will get you up and running in no time!!

mystiroakey wrote:he bought a property in zone 1!!!

oh my god unless its a box it will be worth a few mill!!

Why do you waste you time on here?

and dont be so ridiculous off course you can get broadband and sky- if you have the money to buy the pad - you will have the money to sort it out.

My company can carry out non standard install work.. let me know and i will get you up and running in no time!!

You couldn't accidentally wire his front door to the mains too could you?.....better not

Back to the original post. I see a few areas that questions could be asked of NZ.

1. The scrum. We lack depth, it's one of those positions were there are more players overseas than in NZ. We are still adjusting to the new process and I think we are a bit vulnerable. Obviously I know little of scrummaging. I read an article by John Schwalger, who has returned to NZ from France. I think his comments probably stand.His feeling was the Kiwi's were generally technically superior to their French counterparts. However, the length of scrummaging meant that was physiologically different. It took him a year to adjust physically. I think that's probably true for the AB's at the moment. All teams will be adjusting to rules and the techniques required to win the ball on your own feed.

2. Midfield. We've lost our 3 best outside centers this year. Conrad's on leave, Ranger and Ellison have both gone overseas. Obviously if SBW was back we could play him there. The options are play a converted outside back there, e.g. Ben Smith, push Nonu out a place, or play the raw but talented Saili. I think we are vunerable on defence to quick turn over and direct running from a stepping center. We drift and often end up with a tight forward inside the center. A number of times this year we've been caught out a opposition centre stepping inside Smith and beating the inside cover with pace.

3. I think we are vulnerable at the ruck. To my my mind we tend to play more technically correctly at the initial tackle. The reality is that tackler will contest the ball, without releasing the player and on the ground in this test series. It means slower rucks and more turnover. One of the strategies we seem to have developed is extremely quick ball. In contested rucks this sometimes means the ball is out and open to the opposition.

mystiroakey wrote:he bought a property in zone 1!!!

oh my god unless its a box it will be worth a few mill!!

Why do you waste you time on here?

and dont be so ridiculous off course you can get broadband and sky- if you have the money to buy the pad - you will have the money to sort it out.

My company can carry out non standard install work.. let me know and i will get you up and running in no time!!

Well it's a listed building and the historic facade faces south, so I can't install a sky dish. BT infinity haven't cables the area and virgin aren't allowed to install in this street because there is a protected garden between their nearest hub and the street. BT plan to put in infinity cabling next October. NEXT OCTOBER. It's just ridiculous alright. I can get a shoite 6meg line which is not much better than dial up and when the analogue signal is shut down there will be no tv at all. Basically I'm on a 4g mifi forever. Yet my home town in NZ, population 350 has fibre optic 100M lines and you can stick a Star dish in your back yard and pick up pretty much all global tv.  And don't start me on ferrying around in taxis. Since they decided to dig up horse guards for no sensible reason divert all traffic from the strand to embankment and back you can't move. I'm starting a local campaign to return horse drawn transport and return the mews houses to stables.

This is my source of frustration with England. And I'm sure you'll get the rugby parallel. All the resources in the world and yet they veritably go out of their way to squander it all with needless bureaucracy and petty mismanagement. I've never encountered such a can't-do collective culture. It takes a crisis to motivate any action.

On NZ. Yes the scrum will struggle. Lucky we don't play Wales this year, it could be a platform for them. Again, yes. NZ returns to the full back at centre...collective amnesia. It won't work.

You shouldn't really complain if you bought a property that is a listed building .You should know the implications..

anyway.

1. do you have any walls east or west that aren't historic? you could get around it that way on a bracket.

2. do you have a garden or a communal garden- you can install it on a pole.

3. you could apply for listed building consent.

4. you could just install it yourself anyway and plead ignorance if you get caught

5. roof?

6. Neighbours? just install one on there property. I wouldn't mind if i knew the person!

5. 6 mg  BB isn't great if you wanted to stream sky, but it's infinitely better than dial up  .

Who told you you couldn't get a dish?

was it an engineer that turned up..

99% of the time an engineer can't be bothered to install a tricky job and just move's on to the next one and BS's the client out of it..

"when the analogue signal is shut down there will be no tv at all"


by the way - unless someone knows different- The analogue signal has already been shut down !


Are just talking a load of porkies mate!

Indeed - an utter load of bobbins. I live in a listed building - dishes can be put on them no problem at all. analogue signal went a long time ago. How about a cable - not infinty but ordinary cable - all of london has that

Thanks for the thoughts. Appreciate it. I'll have a think about a dish on a pole in the garden. I might get away with that. Unfortunately my neighbour is a prominent person and his wife is a fairly powered up lawyer and they've laid down the local by laws and provisos with a ring bound document on acceptable behaviour and decorum.

" I live in a listed building - dishes can be put on them no problem at all"


I would personally just stick one up, but by 'law' you do actually need to get consent by the council(which is actually pretty easy to get!).. Sky 'shouldn't' actually install it without that permission. However many other firms would or you just do it yourself!!

"Unfortunately my neighbour is a prominent person and his wife is a fairly powered up lawyer and they've laid down the local by laws and provisos with a ring bound document on acceptable behaviour and decorum"


 



yeah ok mate!

mystiroakey wrote:"Unfortunately my neighbour is a prominent person and his wife is a fairly powered up lawyer and they've laid down the local by laws and provisos with a ring bound document on acceptable behaviour and decorum"


 



yeah ok mate!

What an important and influential person you must be too!

GE, you are Baron Hieronymus Carl Friedrich von Münchhausen aren't you?  

Now you're just being silly. And another thing. There's no recycling here. Right in the centre of London. Just no infrastructure. How can it be so Victorian?

GloriousEmpire wrote:Now you're just being silly. And another thing. There's no recycling here. Right in the centre of London. Just no infrastructure. How can it be so Victorian?

Is there anything about England and the English you at least find tolerable?

Pasties are tasty.

I would appreciate comments limited to tactics against SH teams. I think we've heard enough about inner city London life and having lives in a shoe box in Marylebone know only too well the trials and tribulations of zone one London life and need not be reminded.

I know that this will probably mean no more contributions to the thread but that is preferable to trips down Marylebone or memory lane. Miss those brunches reading the Sunday paper.

Aargh! Now look what you made me do...  

What is Zone 1? is it some kind of security compound?

Yeah, it is just south of District 9.  

mystiroakey wrote:" I live in a listed building - dishes can be put on them no problem at all"


I would personally just stick one up, but by 'law' you do actually need to get consent by the council(which is actually pretty easy to get!).. Sky 'shouldn't' actually install it without that permission. However many other firms would or you just do it yourself!!

Indeed - but its easy to get permission and the rules guiding this are straightforward. Its just you cannot stick a hideous dish on the front wall - it has to go out of sight - usually on a chimney stack

Zone 1 is the heart of London. When the bombs on the underground and buses occurred in July I discovered walking home from work in Victoria took me 25 minutes and taking the tube took me 22 minutes. From then on I walked and felt guilty that a horrible tragedy had a positive impact on me.

Back on topic if you'd be so kind. The third time I will not be so civil.

So - tactics against the big 3. Having watched the 4N matches its hard to see much weakness. A slow game, pressure then in the set piece and 2 very important things - line speed in defence to hit them behind the game line and compete at the breakdown to make them commit their forwards and to slow the ball.

In attack - pace,pace and more pace

Don't kick the ball away

If you kick. Kick long to touch. Build a structured game plan about possession in quality positions.dont try to gimicky rubbish Gatland rolled out against NZ last year. Trust the set piece. Kick the points. Play the percentages. Execute efficiently when the chance arrives. Don't get isolated in possession. Pick the rucks to attack and the ones to let go. Be patient. Don't lose the faith.

Thank you gentlemen.

TJ kicking is fine. You don't want to get tricky in your own half particularly your 22. But if you do kick have a good chase and also a good kick to either contest the ball or out so the opposition can't run the ball back at you in broken play.

I disagree - giving the ball to NZ is a mistake - you have to starve them of the ball. Sure if you are going backwards near your line maybe kick it out but kicking the ball away when you have possession is just stupid. Back your players to make ground instead. Watch the Exeter / blues HC game to see what retaining possession does for you

Its amazing how many people take the tube when they can walk!! 99% of people in london have no real geography skills!!- they think the tube is some kind of portal to different parts of the universe!( i used to allways walk from victoria to marylebone when i worked there)


Anyway. How to beat the SH teams.. Play better, play your own game(talking about wales,england france here).

NZ may be a bit of problem. England's tactic seemed pretty on the money though. Attritional first  half, 

Then when NZ do hit you with that way only NZ can hit you and leave you bamboozled as they have just score 15 plus points in 5 mins . You just have to raise your 'footballing' game because you have to score tries.

Someone mentioned this before- You wont beat NZ by not trying to outplay them. You have to score tries, because however tight you keep it- 80 mins is too long to hold them off.

Make NZ play with at least 2 of our useless players while sneaking on a couple of extra players for the home side.  They cheat by having skilled guys 1-23.  thats not cricket.  England could give then Nick Easter to slow their attacks down to snails pace, Scotland could give them Knock on Nick

Play Mysti.for me,Hi,there is no magic formula just believe you can win and play your own
game.Attrition won`t always work versus the AllBlacks the Boks have tried that without
much success recently.Run them off there feet?France on there best day may get away
with that.
This time the Boks and the All Blacks are much better than last year,Aus are looking back
on track.
One things for sure the All Blacks will be very focused on one match,and England are in
the Cross Hairs.
All Blacks lose too BUT they DON`T forget and it is usually a spanking next time around.
Beware the BLACKNESS IS COMING  

Emack if England play against them and lose we can claim the moral victory as Biltong has after their  recent game V NZ  

In seriousness.
Scotland must use a very aggressive defence in the way Glasgow have done successfully this year. Deny space, knock 'em back in the tackle, hit them behind the gain line and then compete at the rucks. Passive defence will not work. Tie the forwards in, In attack use our speed out wide. Laidlaw to disrupt their scum possession

ENG won't catch NZ out cold again... NZ will have spoken about this match all year. It will have been eating away at McCaw & Reads mind and come the match England should expect a hurricane at Twickenham like no other.

Remember the 95 SF when NZ blew the doors down... that wasn't driven by Lomu... that was driven by their 93 loss at twickenham which ate away at the AB players for 2 years. They wanted their revenge.

It won't be a controlled match. It will be crazy and either it will be a 40 point embarrassment for England or it will be another "Ellis Park" classic where 2 teams throw the kitchen sink at each other.
The ENG team need to take inspiration and directive from the 97 26-all classic. Chaps like Dillaglio and Hill were being physically sick at halftime due to the effort.

mystiroakey wrote:Emack if England play against them and lose we can claim the moral victory as Biltong has after their  recent game V NZ  

Never claimed a moral victory mate. I simply celebrated the fact that we played without fear.

Good lad!

And you did! and we need to as well.

Especially as they are going to be just as up for our game as they were for yours..

Well, England is in the same boat as SA, they haven't been using their backlines to their full potential, SA started doing it this year and it has been great, now we must fine tune it.

[quote="TJ"]I disagree - giving the ball to NZ is a mistake - you have to starve them of the ball.   Sure if you are going backwards near your line maybe kick it out but kicking the ball away when you have possession is just stupid.  Back your players to make ground instead.  Watch the Exeter / blues HC game to see what retaining possession does for you[/quote

It's about assessing your options and being accurate in what you do. It is possible to kick and regain possession. NZ is used to having less possession but can score points from turnovers so being in possession can be at times your worst enemy as defending against opposition ball invariably makes your defensive line more prepared. When you are turned over you get exposed and caught out on defence. NZ are good at set piece conversion and counter attacking. Having the ball is not always the ideal situation though equally kicking away too much ball can be punished as well.

I think a rule change to make all teams play with at least one donkey in the forwards who cannot run and one back with feet for hands would help. maybe NZ would need two donkey forwards

maybe have one actual donkey and allow one player to ride him would make a better spectacle

Any farm yard animal can be substituted for a blood bin replacement.

The NZ locks have to play in a panto horse outfit?

kiakahaaotearoa

to me kicking away possession when between the 22 and the halfway line is just giving the ball away and saying " we are not able to make ground" How often do teams get back possession after a kick> Not often and when it is it tends to be only a few m further forward. You canmake that ground with hard running forwards

But...you're basing your opinion on the per-pantomime horse costume lock era.

I think to even things up all welsh props should be forced to dress in full clown costumes. It will aid binding in the scrum anyway.

You get bored quick dont you..

sort out the entertainment in your downing street residence!! You are losing it bud!

How often does one of the big sides like NZ turn over possession from an opposing runner taking the ball too deep into opposition territory without support and being pounced on by the defenders? Without stats it tends to happen quite a bit and also why kicking has significantly increased since 2007 IMO.

The Garry Owen was near dead as an attacking strategy 5 years ago. Now its one of the primary methods... why, because teams worry about being turned over, not being able to retain possession etc... its better the opposition have it 30m back then right here etc.

Comfort wrote:Thats without mentioning the South African Elephant we've not dealt with in half a century.....


I'd buy a win to be honest  

Having an elephant in your side is most definitely against the rules