Are the Regions and WRU back on the same page or still split

by Brendan Wed 23 Oct - 13:53

First topic message reminder :

This may be to early to tell where the Rabo Unions and Regions stand on the euro debate but if it is a case of them breaking rank should they face actions.

Wales is the only one who has private organsation (Treviso are given a licence by the FIR so will not risk going back into the S10). Would we like to see regions controlled and run by the union so as to avoid all these problems.

Would putting all TV money into a pot for the Rabo and share out per team punish the regions while compensating the SRU & FIR for having half their teams in a lower competition.

Would you see a Pro8 or Pro10 (add a scottish and italian team maybe) and then take the 6 places on offer for the league with each country getting at least one team, maybe Ireland only having three for the first 2 years. The extra games could be a cup or if 8 teams play each other 3 times rotating the second home match.

TV would not be affected much as the Welsh currently keep their TV money.

Personally i feel that until the WRU has control over the regions we will face problems with Welsh rugby and in turn with the Rabo

by munkian Thu 24 Oct - 11:11

The old one was - becuase the 'central contracts' would replace any funding already given to the regions by the WRU

The 'new' one was proposed Monday but I'm not privvy to the details

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 24 Oct - 11:13

SecretFly wrote:
munkian wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:I see the WRU are now centrally contracting players.
They've made an offer (with no solid details) - much like the new rugby cup
Wasn't it bluntly turned down because it would have given too much 'control' to the WRU in deciding where centrally contracted players played?

No this 'new' offer reads to be a temp deal, the union will give the current internationals, who have contracts ending this season, a centralised contract until the HEC/RCC is signed up (Warbs, AWJ, A Jones, Halfpenny, Cuthbert, Foxy, Scott Williams, Priestland etc), and then the players will have their contracts returned to the regions. I believe this is down to the whole "how can we renew contracts if we don't know how much cash we have to do it with" issue, which IMO is what the statement about the RCC was all about.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 24 Oct - 11:16

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/28618.php wrote:The Welsh Rugby Union remains confident that a positive outcome will be arrived at regarding the future of European rugby.

Meetings have taken place across Europe over the past month and the WRU has continued to lead the Welsh negotiations. The WRU believes that it is not helpful to comment publicly at this time regarding such negotiations as detailed discussions are taking place in private with all of the key stakeholders.
Due to the length of the ongoing European negotiations the Welsh Regions have expressed concerns about their ability to conclude their own negotiations with leading players who are approaching the end of their existing contracts.

To help and support the four Welsh Regions the WRU has offered to immediately assist to enable the Regions to retain their leading Welsh qualified players in Wales.

The WRU has offered to contract all of the Regions' leading Welsh qualified players who are out of contract at the end of this season, on appropriate terms to be agreed.

Once the negotiations regarding the European tournament are successfully concluded the WRU would permit the Regions to revert to the current position with the agreed contracts being reassigned back to them.

The WRU has committed more than £33 million to the four Welsh Regions over the course of the next five years to retain players in Wales, in addition to all of the Welsh revenues generated from the RaboDirect and any future European competition.

The WRU is prepared to draw down from this £33 million investment immediately to secure the future of outstanding Welsh talent for Wales and assist the Regions.

The Group Chief Executive of the WRU, Roger Lewis, said:"I want to make it clear to our players that we have full confidence in the future of the elite game in Wales.

"It is important that any player considering his future right now fully understands the level of support the WRU is prepared to offer.

"It would be inappropriate to go into details about any negotiations or discussions which rightly have to be concluded in private, but I respect the concerns of the players at a time when our talks on Europe are continuing.

"Our squad is about to embark on a demanding Autumn series of international games and it is vitally important that all of their minds are completely focused on the task in hand.

"I shared this proposal with the Regional chairmen on Monday of this week and look forward to what I expect would be a positive response."

by SecretFly Thu 24 Oct - 11:19

munkian wrote:The old one was - becuase the 'central contracts' would replace any funding already given to the regions by the WRU

The 'new' one was proposed Monday but I'm not privvy to the details

A new central contract proposal was put to them on Monday and they went public on their Champions Cup thing on Tuesday?

Hmmm, things are getting stranger. I wonder was that them giving a swift public putdown "No" to the WRU proposal (if so wars are happening behind closed doors!) Or maybe it signifies that Christmas has indeed come early to the Regions and that they've just signed lucrative contracts with both WRU and Champions Cup?

by SecretFly Thu 24 Oct - 11:21

Sorry Scarlet, hadn't read your posts before posting my own

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 24 Oct - 11:21

So I guess depending on what side of the fence you sit on that reads-:

A) The WRU are going to sign all the Welsh 'stars' who are out of contract the end of the season. This means they will control all the top players, and they will be able to form two new super-clubs out of the ashes of the four regions.

B) The WRU are going to sign all the Welsh 'stars' who are out of contract the end of the season. And they will 'permit' them to return to the regions, where and when at the WRUs discression, as the WRU have the regions over a monetary barrel.

C) The WRU are going to sign all the Welsh 'stars' who are out of contract the end of the season. And they will return them to their rightful regions as soon as possible, as the WRU appreciate that the whole HEC/RCC farce has left the regions unable to negociate with players as they are unaware of their budgets for next season.

Personally I think it is most likely going to be A or B. I think that I will be shredding my AI tickets if it is A though.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 24 Oct - 11:22

SecretFly wrote:Sorry Scarlet, hadn't read your posts before posting my own

No worries boss, looks like I have just done the same Whistle

by quinsforever Thu 24 Oct - 12:05

ScarletSpiderman wrote:So I guess depending on what side of the fence you sit on that reads-:

A) The WRU are going to sign all the Welsh 'stars' who are out of contract the end of the season. This means they will control all the top players, and they will be able to form two new super-clubs out of the ashes of the four regions.

B) The WRU are going to sign all the Welsh 'stars' who are out of contract the end of the season. And they will 'permit' them to return to the regions, where and when at the WRUs discression, as the WRU have the regions over a monetary barrel.

C) The WRU are going to sign all the Welsh 'stars' who are out of contract the end of the season. And they will return them to their rightful regions as soon as possible, as the WRU appreciate that the whole HEC/RCC farce has left the regions unable to negociate with players as they are unaware of their budgets for next season.

Personally I think it is most likely going to be A or B. I think that I will be shredding my AI tickets if it is A though.

i can see a reason why the regions dont like the offer. If WRU centrally contracts the players, and then the HC or RCC doesnt get sorted, the welsh regions will be bust in 2014, but the WRU will already have control of key players so wont really care too much. This offer effectively could be seen as making it more comfortable for roger lewis not to agree a deal for a european club competition, knowing he gets i) to control and have available key players, and ii) watch the regions implode.

if i were a region i would tell him to shove that offer somewhere dark and smelly, as otherwise what incentive would Rog Lewis have to get a good deal for the regions?

by TJ Thu 24 Oct - 12:11

I think C is the probale option. Just the regions want to emasculate the WRU looking enviously at the way the PRL have emasculated the RFU

by LordDowlais Thu 24 Oct - 12:12

SS, I think, reading in-between the lines of what Roger Lewis has been saying over the last few months is that he does not see the current set-up as a viable one, or more to the point, he does not trust the money men behind the regions, lets not forget, these people did not get where they are today by being kind and charitable. Look, I am no lover of Roger Lewis, but at the same time I do not trust the owners of our regions, I think that the WRU want to control the regions just like the IRFU do with their provinces, the only way I can see this happening is of the WRU payout the monetary value of the regional business and give the owner back what they have invested in them, the whole set-up from the start was shambolic, but know the WRU have sorted themselves out financially the are starting to stick their chest out a bit, and when you have big money men on the other side doing the same thing then things will not get pretty. Anyway, the point I am trying to get to is this, for my own thoughts, the WRU would almost try and force the regions into going their own way, weather that be with the English in their structures or with the French or what ever, but then, and only then, the WRU could cut all ties with them and form a North/South East/South West set-up and put them into the Rabbo and HC, and take all the academies they are paying for and structure them within the new set-up, unless of course RRW and the WRU can agree on this new proposal they are on about, but I just do not think they can trust each other.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 24 Oct - 12:12

Quinsforever -: I can't see any gain in the regions not agreeing. If we don't agree and things don't turn out in our favour, we go boobs up, and the union swoops in and saves the day by centrally contracting the 'stars' and then brings in union-controlled super-clubs.

by quinsforever Thu 24 Oct - 12:15

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Quinsforever -: I can't see any gain in the regions not agreeing. If we don't agree and things don't turn out in our favour, we go boobs up, and the union swoops in and saves the day by centrally contracting the 'stars' and then brings in union-controlled super-clubs.

if they were going to agree so readily, why was this offer made to the regions via press release? and why did the regions release their own one the day after? seems to be a war being waged in the public domain for the moral/popular high ground.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 24 Oct - 12:17

Lord - Roger has been making noises about ditching the current set up for a long time. Was it last Christmas or the year before when he came out with the whole poop-storm about dropping it to two regions and two developement teams? I mean this HEC/RCC issue has really put the ball in the WRUs court, they just had to wait for the regions to crack (and the RRW statement was that crack), and now the WRU can go ahead with their cull of the Scarlets and Dragons, and blame us for them having to do it.

by LordDowlais Thu 24 Oct - 12:24

SS, I think that eventually we will see three or four regions in Wales all under the controll of the WRU, just like in Ireland.

by munkian Thu 24 Oct - 12:26

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Lord - Roger has been making noises about ditching the current set up for a long time. Was it last Christmas or the year before when he came out with the whole poop-storm about dropping it to two regions and two developement teams? I mean this HEC/RCC issue has really put the ball in the WRUs court, they just had to wait for the regions to crack (and the RRW statement was that crack), and now the WRU can go ahead with their cull of the Scarlets and Dragons, and blame us for them having to do it.

WRU bin the Turks ? laughing

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 24 Oct - 12:31

munkian - I honestly think that it will be the Dragons and Scarlets that get shafted, it is not paranoia honest. It makes sense, people want North (RGC), South (Ponty...oh Valleys sorry), East (Blues or Dragons), West (Ospreys or Scarlets) regions. So going by results, history as regions etc, the only logical teams to stay are the Blues and Ospreys, with RGC and Valleys joining as soon as they get themselves sorted out.

by Casartelli Thu 24 Oct - 12:33

LordDowlais wrote:SS, I think that eventually we will see three or four regions in Wales all under the controll of the WRU, just like in Ireland.

What could they be called? It's be a chance for some really good team names at last.

by LordDowlais Thu 24 Oct - 12:49

How about, North Wales, East Wales and West Wales, and perhaps if there is enough money left Mid Wales for all us valley oikes.

by The Saint Thu 24 Oct - 12:52

LordDowlais wrote:How about, North Wales, East Wales and West Wales, and perhaps if there is enough money left Mid Wales for all us valley oikes.

Valleys are South Wales. Powys is Mid Wales.

by The Saint Thu 24 Oct - 12:54

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Lord - Roger has been making noises about ditching the current set up for a long time. Was it last Christmas or the year before when he came out with the whole poop-storm about dropping it to two regions and two developement teams? I mean this HEC/RCC issue has really put the ball in the WRUs court, they just had to wait for the regions to crack (and the RRW statement was that crack), and now the WRU can go ahead with their cull of the Scarlets and Dragons, and blame us for them having to do it.

That was just rumour being spun by the media, and on here. I don't ever recall Rog saying that. I do however, remember him saying that the WRU were commited to keeping 4 Regions.

by Casartelli Thu 24 Oct - 13:02

LordDowlais wrote:How about, North Wales, East Wales and West Wales, and perhaps if there is enough money left Mid Wales for all us valley oikes.

I was thinking more like 'Northern Titans', 'Western Bandits', 'Eastern Promise' etc.

by Brendan Thu 24 Oct - 13:13

Just clear up something this thread is not anti welsh. I have stated about the WRU ditching the regions if the two parties can't agree.

There have been anti welsh statements made all over the net but to be fair this is as much a WRU followers v RRW followers.

I do think that thr WRU & RRW are fighting as how long can this go on before someone comes out and clarifies where the two stand.

by SecretFly Thu 24 Oct - 13:16

There's always four quarters in any pie. And if that pie is Wales... well, there's always a way of slicing it into four regions.

My issues (as an outsider looking in) was always that idea that Wales was 'regionalised' but yet the regions were all still collected mostly at the bottom of what I'd call one region - the South.

Now, that was (kinda) all explained to me by helpful Welsh posters. But I guess the politics and history of it was still too complex for me to understand fully. My idea of regions is that they incorporate an entire area (Wales for example) and that these regions haven't their bases too close to each other as that always causes too much unhealthy friction.

In GAA, the divisions of teams are based on counties. Now obviously that means there can be overlaps of people from one county living and working in another county....... and, in certain places, that can cause an awful lot of friction rather than sporting competitiveness.

There is one county I know where the local pup caters to locals from two counties. When one of the counties do well, the slaggers arrive in the pub and start slagging the neighbouring county - the very county the pub itself is situated in..with flags up supporting that county!
Sometimes the regions of Wales (their bases) appear to me to be just far too close to each other for healthy development of all.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 24 Oct - 13:35

Casartelli wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:How about, North Wales, East Wales and West Wales, and perhaps if there is enough money left Mid Wales for all us valley oikes.
I was thinking more like 'Northern Titans', 'Western Bandits', 'Eastern Promise' etc.

I am not keep on being a Bandit, something just doesn't appeal about that name. How about Western Wizards, Eastern Enchanters, Southern Sorcerors (SP?), and Northern <Something Magic Based Starting With N>.

by SecretFly Thu 24 Oct - 13:40

Northern Nercromancers?

Hmmm, too Halloweenish perhaps... Shocked

by The Saint Thu 24 Oct - 13:43

Brendan wrote:Just clear up something this thread is not anti welsh. I have stated about the WRU ditching the regions if the two parties can't agree.

There have been anti welsh statements made all over the net but to be fair this is as much a WRU followers v RRW followers.

I do think that thr WRU & RRW are fighting as how long can this go on before someone comes out and clarifies where the two stand.

That's okay. I didn't think it was anti-welsh anyway. It's nice to see an article/discussion that is not anti-welsh for a change Wink

.

by munkian Thu 24 Oct - 13:45

SecretFly wrote:There's always four quarters in any pie. And if that pie is Wales... well, there's always a way of slicing it into four regions.

My issues (as an outsider looking in) was always that idea that Wales was 'regionalised' but yet the regions were all still collected mostly at the bottom of what I'd call one region - the South.

Now, that was (kinda) all explained to me by helpful Welsh posters. But I guess the politics and history of it was still too complex for me to understand fully. My idea of regions is that they incorporate an entire area (Wales for example) and that these regions haven't their bases too close to each other as that always causes too much unhealthy friction.

In GAA, the divisions of teams are based on counties. Now obviously that means there can be overlaps of people from one county living and working in another county....... and, in certain places, that can cause an awful lot of friction rather than sporting competitiveness.

There is one county I know where the local pup caters to locals from two counties. When one of the counties do well, the slaggers arrive in the pub and start slagging the neighbouring county - the very county the pub itself is situated in..with flags up supporting that county!
Sometimes the regions of Wales (their bases) appear to me to be just far too close to each other for healthy development of all.

Problem is Fly, the transport links in Wales are Poopie at best and there isn't much in Mid Wales except for Dan Lydiate's farm Wink

The population centres in Wales are mostly in the South and so have the better transport links. Scarlets claim that 'West is Best' yet Llanelli is still pretty much South West

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 24 Oct - 13:45

SecretFly wrote:Sometimes the regions of Wales (their bases) appear to me to be just far too close to each other for healthy development of all.

One of the big issues with Welsh rugby is that we are constantly concerned with attendances. If we went for four regions covering all of wales, then theoretically the best way to divide them would be Aberwystwyth (West), Porthcawl (South), Llandudno (North), Builth Wells (East). However, none of these have existing sides of any note, and as such don't have facilities etc, and are not the most accessable for people from around the region (public infrastructure etc). I live in Milford Haven, any more west and I would be Irish, however to get to Aberwystyth (the most logical place for West going by geography) on the train I would need to go all the way to Cardiff, and then travel north a bit, before travelling the length of the country again, and it would be the same for anyone from Pembrokeshire or Carmarthenshire. Where as going to Llanelli is far easier, and it is generally easier for the majority of the folk in the west.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 24 Oct - 13:50

munkian wrote:Scarlets claim that 'West is Best' yet Llanelli is still pretty much South West

To be fair, Llanelli's only claim to being west is that it is slightly west of central, just like Swansea.

by munkian Thu 24 Oct - 13:59

I still find it 'funny' you can see 'WEST IS BEST' on the TV due to the empty seats Wink

by Brendan Thu 24 Oct - 14:04

I think having to carve up new regions would be worse than 10 years ago as you would now then have 3 factions of new regions v old regions v go back to premership

Just on central contracts in ireland they aren't really told to go to a certain region but more what position to play. So if it was like ireland you could expect to see halfpenny at flyhalf for five games a year.

by munkian Thu 24 Oct - 14:34

Carving up new regions wouldn't help, it would be worse. They just need to make the existing regions more accessible to fans.

We can't have the same model as Irish contracts as we aren't able to offer the tax breaks to our players to keep them here.

by TJ Thu 24 Oct - 14:40

SRU have the same model as the IRFU and no tax breaks I think its the same anyway

by munkian Thu 24 Oct - 15:05

And aren't they doing well Wink

by SecretFly Thu 24 Oct - 15:18

munkian wrote:And aren't they doing well

Glasgow is.... there are only two. 50%? That's ok. Wink

by munkian Thu 24 Oct - 15:32

Very True

by Brendan Fri 25 Oct - 13:01

Have the RRW made any statement about yesterday. It would seem both could claim to save face by the unions saying we have done what is best for the regions and the regions can say thanks for listening to us and agreeing to European competitions next year with all sides involved.

by Guest Fri 25 Oct - 13:10

Well, the Welsh bashing and baying for blood seems to have stopped a bit on here. I daren't look at the Glasgow Warriors forum or Munster Fans again - some of the things those horrible people said made me blush Erm

by Brendan Fri 25 Oct - 13:21

But are the WRU & RRW back to normal

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 25 Oct - 13:42

Griff wrote:Well, the Welsh bashing and baying for blood seems to have stopped a bit on here. I daren't look at the Glasgow Warriors forum or Munster Fans again - some of the things those horrible people said made me blush

Yeah, but lets be fair if the boot was on the other foot, ScarletFever, Dragged Up and the likes would have been in up roar, and probably a heck of a lot more abusive.

by Brendan Fri 25 Oct - 14:00

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Griff wrote:Well, the Welsh bashing and baying for blood seems to have stopped a bit on here. I daren't look at the Glasgow Warriors forum or Munster Fans again - some of the things those horrible people said made me blush
Yeah, but lets be fair if the boot was on the other foot, ScarletFever, Dragged Up and the likes would have been in up roar, and probably a heck of a lot more abusive.

Scarlet is the view in wales now that the regions were just a bit early on the release. From Mark McCaf he still seems to thing the regions are with him and that the deal is different from the RCC.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 25 Oct - 14:24

Brendan, people I have talked to seem to think it is all sorted out and hunky dory again, but the majority of people I talk to listen to what pundits say, so basically their veiw point is what the Beeb/Western Mail/Scrum V tell them.

by SecretFly Fri 25 Oct - 14:36

It's all either a mess and nobody really knows what is going to happen --- or ----- the Union statement has been gone through with a fine legal tooth comb before release (all Unions notably keeping purposefully silent after it came out) with a view to taking the Leadership of European rugby back from the assumed rebels.

That is to say - I'm sure the Unions talk more to the IRB than the clubs do; and it might be that they've cleared their intentions with IRB and IRB has given consent to their next move.............. which MIGHT... involve them saying it's our way now or the highway for the clubs.

You (the French and English clubs) have had your consessions - we (the Unions) will continue to own the contest - period. You refuse and try to form an independent competition, without Union sanction, then IRB steps in to declare what rights Unions have over a Sporting Code in comparison to the lesser rights of privately run clubs.

There simply seems to be a big distinction now between the words coming from areas of the PRL movement - including those of the Welsh regions - and that taken by the Unions who remain pointedly silent.
If everyone was on the same sheet and everyone is happy, then there would be no need for Union voices to stay silent but rather they'd readily confirm what certain Club heads and region heads are saying.

by quinsforever Fri 25 Oct - 14:42

SecretFly wrote:It's all either a mess and nobody really knows what is going to happen --- or ----- the Union statement has been gone through with a fine legal tooth comb before release (all Unions notably keeping purposefully silent after it came out) with a view to taking the Leadership of European rugby back from the assumed rebels.

That is to say - I'm sure the Unions talk more to the IRB than the clubs do; and it might be that they've cleared their intentions with IRB and IRB has given consent to their next move.............. which MIGHT... involve them saying it's our way now or the highway for the clubs.

You (the French and English clubs) have had your consessions - we (the Unions) will continue to own the contest - period. You refuse and try to form an independent competition, without Union sanction, then IRB steps in to declare what rights Unions have over a Sporting Code in comparison to the lesser rights of privately run clubs.

There simply seems to be a big distinction now between the words coming from areas of the PRL movement - including those of the Welsh regions - and that taken by the Unions who remain pointedly silent.
If everyone was on the same sheet and everyone is happy, then there would be no need for Union voices to stay silent but rather they'd readily confirm what certain Club heads and region heads are saying.

wow, that reads like a dream sequence.

is it not obvious that the unions statement was simply a continuation in the negotiations, recognising that there are several important unresolved issues? they made an offer, didnt rule anything in or out, and plan to keep talking.

TV
corporate governance
commercial control

still to be hashed out

glad the welsh bashing has stopped though suspect thats not totally over either!

by SecretFly Fri 25 Oct - 14:55

quinsforever wrote:
SecretFly wrote:It's all either a mess and nobody really knows what is going to happen --- or ----- the Union statement has been gone through with a fine legal tooth comb before release (all Unions notably keeping purposefully silent after it came out) with a view to taking the Leadership of European rugby back from the assumed rebels.

That is to say - I'm sure the Unions talk more to the IRB than the clubs do; and it might be that they've cleared their intentions with IRB and IRB has given consent to their next move.............. which MIGHT... involve them saying it's our way now or the highway for the clubs.

You (the French and English clubs) have had your consessions - we (the Unions) will continue to own the contest - period. You refuse and try to form an independent competition, without Union sanction, then IRB steps in to declare what rights Unions have over a Sporting Code in comparison to the lesser rights of privately run clubs.

There simply seems to be a big distinction now between the words coming from areas of the PRL movement - including those of the Welsh regions - and that taken by the Unions who remain pointedly silent.
If everyone was on the same sheet and everyone is happy, then there would be no need for Union voices to stay silent but rather they'd readily confirm what certain Club heads and region heads are saying.
wow, that reads like a dream sequence.

is it not obvious that the unions statement was simply a continuation in the negotiations, recognising that there are several important unresolved issues? they made an offer, didnt rule anything in or out, and plan to keep talking.

TV
corporate governance
commercial control

still to be hashed out

glad the welsh bashing has stopped though suspect thats not totally over either!

Numero Uno..you don't care about the Welsh or the 'bashing'. You're enjoying the lark.

Two: Negotiations happen between two or more people on opposite sides of the fence (that fence again) You might have missed the grunts coming from PRL land that the Union meeting didn't produce enough? The PRL only know this from the statement - they certainly don't know it from any 'negotiation' they were involved in - as they've stopped negotiation with the dreaded ERC drumroll

PRL/Bath chief/Welsh Region give responses...Union heads leave building with grim faces refusing to speak.

You judge that to be game over... I'll dream Wink

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