Adam Jones & the new scrum laws

With the introduction of the new scrum engagement laws, removing the 'hit' and returning to a shoving match, many props have perhaps struggled when they've been trained most of their professional life, and perhaps amateur as well, to 'win' the engagement, with little emphasis on technique and producing forward momentum from a stationary, engaged position. I think most Welsh fans will be a little surprised to the extent which Adam Jones has struggled so far this season, particularly when you consider how effective he has been over the last 5 years in the scrum, the epitome perhaps occurring against England in March. Clearly, these new laws require different skills, and are reffed differently, and will of course take a while to get used to for some.

However, Adam is so heavy and squat, and so, apparently, technically good, I surely can't be the only one shocked to see him perform so inconsistently, including receiving a torrid time from Tom Court, hardly a well renowned scrummager. I think the second row performs a far greater role in the new scrums, or rather the locks must now generate a solid base and/or momentum for the props to work angles (dark arts) against their opposing prop, instead of simply 'chasing' the engage. Yet with a second row pairing of AWJ and Ian Evans, Adam does not have shabby support in that area, albeit the latter is out of form. So what's the problem? I'm not sure, and perhaps that's not even the right question to ask.

For Wales, this clearly is a worry; "the gameplan" is reliant on a dominant, or at worst, neutral, set-piece, and if Adam is consistently on the back foot or conceding penalties, it would surely be the difference between failure or success. There can be no doubt that other teams, and the refs, will have taken notice of Adam's form, and will look to target and penalise him respectively. It makes the exclusion of Samson Lee, who is relishing in the new laws, even more puzzling: neither Aaron Jarvis nor Scott Andrews fill me with hope that, should Adam be struggling, they could rectify the set-piece. Is it sacrilege to consider dropping Adam if it does materialise that he struggles internationally? Let us not forget Warren Gatland begging Martyn Williams to come out of retirement due to the dearth of back row options, only for Warburton to have taken his place by the time the World Cup came around: without heaping too much pressure on Samson's broad shoulders, he looks an exciting prospect, and who knows how good he will be in two years' time. If nothing more than to 'blood' him, does he not have Irish blood? It would be crazy to not cap him only to have the IRFU to do a job on him and convince him to play for them.

This is far from writing Adam off, nor saying Samson should be starting this Autumn. Scott Andrews did well last season when called upon, and Jarvis never got an opportunity, so their selection makes sense: if they aren't good enough, at least we will know. It seems a little harsh due to Samson's impressive form, but thankfully we're starting to develop real depth in some positions, and he certainly has time on his side if we consider him only available for Wales. With the nature of the game at the moment, front rows should be allowed to have perhaps one international season to come to terms with the new laws, but we're close to a World Cup, and the worst- Adam no longer being the rock of the Welsh team- must be considered.

What do Ospreys fans think, who will have seen far more of him than I have? How has he played in the games I haven't seen, and do you think he'll up his game for Wales, when facing better players?

He smashed the Dragons scrum to smithereens last night. How did he manage that? Magic?

Sorry, that sounded a bit sarcastic and sh@tty. Wasn't meant to!

He'll come good, I'm sure of it. He's much more than just a 'hit' merchant. Many times I've seen him winning the pushing contest too, rather than just stopping at the hit. Maybe he's taking a bit more time than others, but the fact that he can scrummage as well as hit means, for me, that the new laws should suit him just as well. I'm just not sure why they're not currently.

There was at least one where he got driven backwards. My point that he has been inconsistent this season still stands: whilst he's undoubtedly got the better of some looseheads, he's struggled against others (the Ulster game especially). And with respect to the Dragons, they don't have the best of front rows.

Problems started after 2008 when most of the experimental laws were turned down flat by
the NH.The NH has the majority on the IRB so the laws it wants it gets mostly. NOT what
NZ wants ass is usually stated here.
Those that were bought into law were the worse ones with the exception of the 5 metre gap
at the base of the Scrum.
Instead of admitting that the original method of setting the Scrum was best.They have been
tinkering with it ever since 2008.Every season something different plus new directives to the
Refs.
For the last 5 years Props have been throwing Locks into the air,running around the field.
Charging into Scrums to win the HIT,while the Scrum half feeds straight into the "2ND ROW".
Players coming into the game not as Props knowing how to Scrummage.,Hookers not knowing
how to Hook,Scrum Halves never learn`t to feed a Scrum.
It isn`t just one Prop or Scrum,or Country that are struggling.Argentina arguably the best
Scrummagers in the game.Have been going backwards or popped up on there own ball.
No two Refs seem to control it the same,result penalties,collapses,resets,as shrewd Coaches.
Use it to milk Penalties the feed as stated currently is to slow.,The shove shouldn't commence
until the ball is in the Scrum according to Wayne Barnes .
Which means every Scrum I`ve seen this season is illegal and not one commentator has
mentioned it .OR Waynes Barnes version is totally wrong it will be sorted but DON`T blame
your Scrum.Or your players until they realise the Scrum is an 8 man unit EVERYONEshoves
not just leans on it.

I think Adam is just plain knackered, he has played some real hard rugby over the last four years with hardly any time off,it will take it's toll on the body.
If Wales want him to last for the 2015 RWC they need to manage him better now.

miaow wrote:There was at least one where he got driven backwards. My point that he has been inconsistent this season still stands: whilst he's undoubtedly got the better of some looseheads, he's struggled against others (the Ulster game especially). And with respect to the Dragons, they don't have the best of front rows.

No we don't.

The thing with Adam is the hit is gone now. The setup for the scrums are pretty weird now. Yesterday both front rows were so close that when they were doing the crouch and bind, they were already touching. Be interesting to see how he goes against two good packs first up for Wales (SA and Arg). I suspect he'll get rested v Tonga.

He's probably tired and struggling to adapt. He can no longer get away with his favourite big hit and dodgey bind combination. He's experienced enough to come good eventually as several other top players took time adapting.

I suspect the different refereeing has negated his "cleverness" (cheating) Its now clearer when he is either pushing early or not taking he hit which were his mainstays of winning penalties.

I like Adam Jones but he became the master at milking penalties in scrums - see last years Scotland game for a good example

The scrum has become a fairer contest

Probably the same thing happened last night to Ryan Grant against Munster - pinged a lot, as he can't get away with his cheating, like TJ describes above.

Adams will come good eventually . best test of this is against the boks two weeks time .

I suspect he is a busted flush now - end of career. We will see.

He's been written off before and come good, I reckon its a combination of long back to back seasons, age (not getting any younger) and adapting to the new laws.

I would say it's more to do with having James King rather than Ian Evans behind him.

With Evans behind him in the first games of the season Adam Jones looked like the best tight head in the world.

Johaan Muller was saying recently how much more the scrums were taking out of the forwards legs....might be some of the older and less fit guys might struggle under the new laws...a bit off topic but there you go....

It's a valid point Rodders. Especially someone on the lower limits of fitness for a pro player!

I think we have to remember that Adam Jones, like a number of Lions players, has had a delayed start to the season. In the opening games with the new rules everyone was in the same boat and were able to give them a go, test them out, see what worked against players in a similar position. Adam has missed all of that so he is now up against players who've been playing them for a few weeks longer. I think we're just seeing Adam Jones coming to terms with them, feeling them out, finding what works and what doesn't work. He'll get there I'm sure.

He's played 8 times, a number of them from the bench, so double that and we'll know where he is.

It would be interesting to hear how the other players at his level are adapting, I have heard reports that Dan Cole is adapting well but then as Griff said I expect he was back playing before Jones was.

bedfordwelsh wrote:It would be interesting to hear how the other players at his level are adapting, I have heard reports that Dan Cole is adapting well but then as Griff said I expect he was back playing before Jones was.

No Dan Cole has looked poor.

TJ wrote:I suspect the different refereeing has negated his "cleverness" (cheating) Its now clearer when he is either pushing early or not taking he hit which were his mainstays of winning penalties.

I like Adam Jones but he became the master at milking penalties in scrums - see last years Scotland game for a good example

The scrum has become a fairer contest

Heaven forbid when I actually see a Scotland fan admit his team were outplayed by Wales... What's that, 9 games in a row you've been shafted now?

Yes, Adam adapting to the new laws is a concern, I aired my concern after watching him get pushed back against Edinburgh and Ulster. I think, and mostly hope, he will come good. From what I have seen of Jarvis he can cope well with the new laws, and is still a very good prospect. I imagine he will be No.2 for the TH spot. Despite Andrews doing fairly well on the odd occassion when he's been relied upon, he's rubbish and was not a form selection. No prop who gets lifted that high in the air should be playing professional rugby. I also hear that he was just as bad against Ulster, so how does anyone justify this selection? You are right, Samson can feel hard done-by as can a few other guys who just missed out. Lee is tied to Wales btw, via the U20's.

Samson is a far better prospect than Andrews,
not saying Andrews won't ever come good like any prop it takes time to mature into the role.
But Andrews is a pretty good player at tempo he has a great pass and not bad speed for a prop.

And he can't scrum, which is his No.1 job.

Good thread.
I have also been concerned a bit lately but this is Adam Jones and I still have full trust in him.
He has come back now for what 5 odd weeks. He is still just coming back from a tiring Lions tour which he was massive in.
I remember last year he started back a bit wary and off form (he just came back form injury at the start of the six nations) where he has a bit of criticism then.
It's interested you mention locks as well because the two lock who have been behind him this season have been Alyn Wyn and James King. James King is very light for a lock and is the second row set behind Adam, I' no blaming James King but he isn't a lock and can't help Adam out as much as a 17.18,19 stone lock.
Let's give him more time before hitting the panick button, come the Autumn tests hopefully he will have got to grips with things. You dont go from being the best tighthead in the world to being out scrummaged by Tom Court by a click of the fingers. Let's just see how he goes huh

Just read what Griff said about Grant as well.
I've watched Grant this season and he has also struggles quite a bit, i mean I know Samson Lee s coming along well this year but he completely destroyed him when they visited down our place. Grant to me was one of the bets loosehead scrummager going last year in all competitions. He has always got that back hit form the scrum but again struggles this year.
I hope he is in the same case as Adam and will adapt soon because he is a really good player.

maestegmafia wrote:I would say it's more to do with having James King rather than Ian Evans behind him.

With Evans behind him in the first games of the season Adam Jones looked like the best tight head in the world.

Sorry MM, but do you actually watch any of the games as James King packs down behind Ryan Bevington and AWJ packs behind Adam, that is why Ryan is getting absolutely slaughtered on the Os forum ATM.

King has only played the last 2 or 3 games too. Is Bevington getting slaughtered because he can't scrum?

James King has started 6 games at number 5, against Treviso Leinster x2, Connaught, Northampton and the Dragons, Ian Evans has started at 5 twice Ulster and Edinburgh and twice at 4 against Connaught and Leinster in the Rabo. AWJ has started 5 games at 4 and Ryan Jones once at 4, to the Saint yes Ryan Bevington has taken a lot of stick on our forum over his scrummaging ability, most reckon he will not make it at the very top level, he was also subbed in the first test on the Japan tour and IIRC was dropped altogether for the second Test, the jury is really out about him scrum time wise. Ian Evans is 2 stone heavier than James King and as a former hooker that is mightily important.

Deluded, Dan Cole has looked solid in the scrums this season and is in fairly decent form. He looked a bit muted round the park early doors and by his own admission the Tigers front row had to do a lot of work to adapt. Him looking muted in the loose early doors would fit with the forwards having to tire the legs more and so were not conditioned correctly as the season started.

wayne wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I would say it's more to do with having James King rather than Ian Evans behind him.

With Evans behind him in the first games of the season Adam Jones looked like the best tight head in the world.

Sorry MM, but do you actually watch any of the games as James King packs down behind Ryan Bevington and AWJ packs behind Adam, that is why Ryan is getting absolutely slaughtered on the Os forum ATM.

Why the antagonism...? No need to be rude you obviously didn't understand the post I wrote..!!!

It doesn't matter whether Evans packs behind Loose or Tighthead. If he is not there, he isn't packing behind either is he...!

maestegmafia wrote:

wayne wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I would say it's more to do with having James King rather than Ian Evans behind him.

With Evans behind him in the first games of the season Adam Jones looked like the best tight head in the world.

Sorry MM, but do you actually watch any of the games as James King packs down behind Ryan Bevington and AWJ packs behind Adam, that is why Ryan is getting absolutely slaughtered on the Os forum ATM.

Why the antagonism...? No need to be rude you obviously didn't understand the post I wrote..!!!

It doesn't matter whether Evans packs behind Loose or Tighthead. If he is not there, he isn't packing behind either is he...!

If it came across as antagonistic I'm sorry, it does matter a great deal and as a former hooker I can appreciate it the hard man is usually behind the T/H Ian Gough used to pack behind Adam, that is why I said Bev is having a hard time on the Os forum because King is 2 stone lighter than Ianto

wayne wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

wayne wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I would say it's more to do with having James King rather than Ian Evans behind him.

With Evans behind him in the first games of the season Adam Jones looked like the best tight head in the world.

Sorry MM, but do you actually watch any of the games as James King packs down behind Ryan Bevington and AWJ packs behind Adam, that is why Ryan is getting absolutely slaughtered on the Os forum ATM.

Why the antagonism...? No need to be rude you obviously didn't understand the post I wrote..!!!

It doesn't matter whether Evans packs behind Loose or Tighthead. If he is not there, he isn't packing behind either is he...!

If it came across as antagonistic I'm sorry, it does matter a great deal and as a former hooker I can appreciate it the hard man is usually behind the T/H Ian Gough used to pack behind Adam, that is why I said Bev is having a hard time on the Os forum because King is 2 stone lighter than Ianto

Apology accepted mate

I agree, that king can't push as hard and that has caused problems.

To be honest I am not fully against what the Ospreys coaches have done dropping Ianto as he hasn't been at his best since the Lions tour, where he didn't really perform either.

I am hoping that the boys in the welsh camp will get the best out of him thus benefitting both Wales, Ospreys and Adam Jones impressive reputation.

If we are lucky he might even make Bevs look good..???

Samson Lee has been the best Welsh tighthead this season to date, I can only assume he has not made the squad because he was banned. As the ban is now over, if Jarvis is not fully fit he could come in. He can only benefit from some training sessions with Adam.

Bev and AJ have both looked ropey in the scrum this season

Breadvan wrote:Bev and AJ have both looked ropey in the scrum this season

They looked pretty good the other night..!

And in the early matches, to be honest they only looked dodgy in a few scrums in their poorer games.

maestegmafia wrote:

Breadvan wrote:Bev and AJ have both looked ropey in the scrum this season

They looked pretty good the other night..!

And in the early matches, to be honest they only looked dodgy in a few scrums in their poorer games.

Sorry Dragons fans, but MM, it's different playing the Dragons than the Northampton, Leinsters and Ulsters of this world, by all accounts Adam himself has admitted he has had trouble with this new scrummaging technique, Bevs problems could be solved with a bit of extra weight behind him, that's why some have questioned Ianto's exclusion.

Bev's been outdone too often, Tigers and Treviso spring to mind there. That's his own fault so only Bev can solve his own problem, not Ianto.

wayne wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Breadvan wrote:Bev and AJ have both looked ropey in the scrum this season

They looked pretty good the other night..!

And in the early matches, to be honest they only looked dodgy in a few scrums in their poorer games.

Sorry Dragons fans, but MM, it's different playing the Dragons than the Northampton, Leinsters and Ulsters of this world, by all accounts Adam himself has admitted he has had trouble with this new scrummaging technique, Bevs problems could be solved with a bit of extra weight behind him, that's why some have questioned Ianto's exclusion.

I thought the scrum went well in Dublin when Ospreys drew with Leinster...?

Bevington has never impressed me and whilst I am a Dragons fan our scrum is certainly not to be used as a bench mark as to how players are or are not performing.

Unfortunately 2 of our best options at L/Head play in England (James and Gill) and whilst a deal has been done for James' release Gill isn't in squad.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Deluded, Dan Cole has looked solid in the scrums this season and is in fairly decent form. He looked a bit muted round the park early doors and by his own admission the Tigers front row had to do a lot of work to adapt. Him looking muted in the loose early doors would fit with the forwards having to tire the legs more and so were not conditioned correctly as the season started.

He got schooled by Tom Court.

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Deluded, Dan Cole has looked solid in the scrums this season and is in fairly decent form. He looked a bit muted round the park early doors and by his own admission the Tigers front row had to do a lot of work to adapt. Him looking muted in the loose early doors would fit with the forwards having to tire the legs more and so were not conditioned correctly as the season started.

He got schooled by Tom Court.

I don't think so.

http://www.skysports.com/rugbyunion/match_report/0,,11069_61711_1,00.html

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:It would be interesting to hear how the other players at his level are adapting, I have heard reports that Dan Cole is adapting well but then as Griff said I expect he was back playing before Jones was.

No Dan Cole has looked poor.

Deluded,

Maybe its a bit one eyed or biased reporting then and as I have not seen much of him this season its only reports I have to go by.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Deluded, Dan Cole has looked solid in the scrums this season and is in fairly decent form. He looked a bit muted round the park early doors and by his own admission the Tigers front row had to do a lot of work to adapt. Him looking muted in the loose early doors would fit with the forwards having to tire the legs more and so were not conditioned correctly as the season started.

He got schooled by Tom Court.

I don't think so.

http://www.skysports.com/rugbyunion/match_report/0,,11069_61711_1,00.html

       
Good old SKY eh! can't be seen to bring down an English prop eh!
Watch the game like i did and the truth will set you free.
Don't rely on the propaganda machine of the RFU for your "facts"

by bedfordwelsh Today at 6:54 am
Bevington has never impressed me and whilst I am a Dragons fan our scrum is certainly not to be used as a bench mark as to how players are or are not performing.

Unfortunately 2 of our best options at L/Head play in England (James and Gill) and whilst a deal has been done for James' release Gill isn't in squad.



Beds

Gill is about to go for surgery so is not included.

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Deluded, Dan Cole has looked solid in the scrums this season and is in fairly decent form. He looked a bit muted round the park early doors and by his own admission the Tigers front row had to do a lot of work to adapt. Him looking muted in the loose early doors would fit with the forwards having to tire the legs more and so were not conditioned correctly as the season started.

He got schooled by Tom Court.

I don't think so.

http://www.skysports.com/rugbyunion/match_report/0,,11069_61711_1,00.html

       
Good old SKY eh! can't be seen to bring down an English prop eh!
Watch the game like i did and the truth will set you free.
Don't rely on the propaganda machine of the RFU for your "facts"

If anything Sky have a 'love in' with the Irish provinces in the HC.

Anyhow, I am sure that Adam Jones and his coaches will iron out any early season problems.

maestegmafia wrote:



by bedfordwelsh Today at 6:54 am
Bevington has never impressed me and whilst I am a Dragons fan our scrum is certainly not to be used as a bench mark as to how players are or are not performing.

Unfortunately 2 of our best options at L/Head play in England (James and Gill) and whilst a deal has been done for James' release Gill isn't in squad.



Beds

Gill is about to go for surgery so is not included.

where did you hear that?

Jhamer25 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:



by bedfordwelsh Today at 6:54 am
Bevington has never impressed me and whilst I am a Dragons fan our scrum is certainly not to be used as a bench mark as to how players are or are not performing.

Unfortunately 2 of our best options at L/Head play in England (James and Gill) and whilst a deal has been done for James' release Gill isn't in squad.



Beds

Gill is about to go for surgery so is not included.

where did you hear that?

He tweeted himself a shoulder reconstruction back sometime January

https://twitter.com/Rhysgill1

maestegmafia wrote:

wayne wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Breadvan wrote:Bev and AJ have both looked ropey in the scrum this season

They looked pretty good the other night..!

And in the early matches, to be honest they only looked dodgy in a few scrums in their poorer games.

Sorry Dragons fans, but MM, it's different playing the Dragons than the Northampton, Leinsters and Ulsters of this world, by all accounts Adam himself has admitted he has had trouble with this new scrummaging technique, Bevs problems could be solved with a bit of extra weight behind him, that's why some have questioned Ianto's exclusion.

I thought the scrum went well in Dublin when Ospreys drew with Leinster...?

What makes you say that the scrum went well when Ospreys drew with Leinster?

Hound of Harrow wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Deluded, Dan Cole has looked solid in the scrums this season and is in fairly decent form. He looked a bit muted round the park early doors and by his own admission the Tigers front row had to do a lot of work to adapt. Him looking muted in the loose early doors would fit with the forwards having to tire the legs more and so were not conditioned correctly as the season started.

He got schooled by Tom Court.

I don't think so.

http://www.skysports.com/rugbyunion/match_report/0,,11069_61711_1,00.html

       
Good old SKY eh! can't be seen to bring down an English prop eh!
Watch the game like i did and the truth will set you free.
Don't rely on the propaganda machine of the RFU for your "facts"

If anything Sky have a 'love in' with the Irish provinces in the HC.

Anyhow, I am sure that Adam Jones and his coaches will iron out any early season problems.

Im sure they will but i think he really does just need a month out with nothing but rest.

New to the forum ; but here's my opinion :
Adam is looking a little bit bigger than usual due to lack of pre season, wondering if his extra weight he is carrying is affecting his scrummaging too ? He's even making Hibbard look slender at the moment

Welcome to 606v2, Bluedragon. Tell me, are you a Blues fan, a Dragons fan, or do you just cook a mean stir fry?