How to make the Pro 12 better financially?

So it appears when the new H-cup is agreed that the Pro 12 Unions will be receiving less than they did (in terms of % of profit rather than actual £, as they are guaranteed to get as least the same as before).

Therefore to keep up with the French and English, we have to generate more income from the Pro 12.

How do you think the Unions and the league as a collective can go about increasing the Pro 12 revenue streams?

Some games moving to SKY, I believe will be a boost as with SKY you get publicity and marketing that is far beyond what BBC/RTE etc are capable of, and should increase the appear of the League.

The new qualification method will generate a little more grudge and excitement for the mid table teams, and a bit more international rivalry, as its not just teams from your own Union you have to finish ahead of.

However I think the real boost would be if the League can gain popularity in Scotland and Wales.

What I could never figure out is how the Scottish Claymores (a European American football team that used to play in the European league) could average 11,000 a game, and the 2 Scottish rugby teams can only dream of an average attendance this high?

There are many similarities between them, both playing what would be considered a minority sport in Scotland, in a cross European league. However rugby has the advantages of being a more popular sport in Scotland than American Football, is in a top league (Claymores were in a second rate league) playing against and competing with some of the best teams in the world. Yet they attract an average crowd of about 4000 to Claymores 11,000 average?

I'd love to know what the Claymores did to win this appeal in Scotland, that Rugby isn't doing? This average couldn't just be down to being a novelty as its from 10 seasons? Could it be down to Claymores being quite successful winning their league for the first two years? can we expect something similar if Glasgow win the league or H-cup (Glasgow have been making play offs for a while now has that helped?). Can whatever the Claymores did be used as a template for Scottish and Welsh sides?

In Wales its been said that winning the H-cup would see a big interest for the regions, would this really hold true? Ospreys are multiple league winners, and while their attendance is good, I don't think it is at the level that was hoped for.

Would creating a big grudge with other teams entice Welsh fans? Ospreys Munster used to be one, Ospreys Leinster is a friendly enough one, but if SKY built these up to be real grudge matches would this see Welsh fans flock to the League games? Will the double headers help?

And Ireland isn't perfect, what do we need to do here? Should we consider a double header? Better sponsorship? Move games around provinces more?

What do you think the Pro 12 can do, to increase its revenue to try to match that o the Aviva Prem?

Maybe as the claymores represented the whole of Scotland, then everyone felt 'embraced' and so out of the whole population of Scotland 11,000 was a small proportion in reality. With Glasgow and Edinburgh, perhaps you're cutting off the rest of Scotland outside these 2 cities, which is where the Claymores picked up some of their support. Just a guess really!

In Wales, although people talk of the clubs being the halcyon days, if you look at attendances then they're not much more than now. Newport used to average around 6-8k, and more like 10 or 11k only for a big Christmas derby with Cardiff. That's what we're getting now too with regional rugby - around 6-8k for a normal match and upwards of 10k for the Blues. If you look at the Celtic league, or whatever it was called, the season before regional rugby you'll see that attendances haven't really tailed off. It's just never been that high, even with a vibrant club scene.

I'm a tad rusty on my gridiron - does "The Fridge" still play? - but I'm wondering whether the name 'Scottish' Claymores helped them appeal to casual fans across Scotland?

Would they have attracted such crowds if they'd been, for example, the Inverness Claymores???

Connsidering the Scottish clubs only got gates in the hundreds then the pro clubs attendence is not too bad.

It needs more publicity especially at Edinburgh where we have a big ground to fill - I would like to see children in for free and tickets given away to schools

Well the sky deal is a start. We need to attract a bigger TV audience and a single broadcaster plus consistant kick off times.

Hopefully some decent sponsorship will follow.

We need the Welsh regions to be more competitive, Ospreys excepted they haven't produced to the sum of their parts and Munster to take the league seriously too.

There are enough quality players and teams in the league to make it a really great product. Italy is the big untapped market - with the strides Treviso are making hopefully that will change.

Do you think being Scottish Claymores helped bring in fans from Aberdeen and Inverness rather than if they had been Edinburgh Claymores? I don't know myself. though I would love to know how they pulled in the big crowds.

I always have though that a bit of rivalry would really help, and to be honest Glasgows only rivalry is with Edinburgh and its a friendly one, as the fans of one team support the other as their second team. I kinda hope that the recent Munster game builds into a big grudge match, Thomond to sell out for the return (maybe another bad tempered affair), maybe meet in the play offs? if Glasgow at home having to move it to Murrayfield or Hampden because of the demand for tickets - that would be great for Glasgow and the League.

However I don't want this thread to be about that game, but how the teams/Unions/league can make more money.

Actually Rodders you make a great point about Munster not taking the League seriously, that is something that could be improved on in Ireland.

Ok they are top of the league at present and have won it recently, but the team and Munster fans still see it a more as a warm up to Europe. Saw an interview with POM and asked were his aims this year to win silverware, he just mentioned the H-cup and nothing about the league, whereas at the other provinces the talk is always the aim is to win both, or some silverware.

The attitude filters down to the fans. I don't think the new qualification will change this as Munster normally finish in top 5 anyway, so it won't really effect them to much.
When Munster won the league it did matter, but it was a bit muted, Leinster winning makes bigger waves, and if Ulster were to win it, it would create a lot of excitement up here.

Ospreys always seamed a bit muted when they won it as well, you would expect that it would be big news in Wales, but I don't think it ever was (happy to be corrected on this, if I am wrong).

The new RCC (if, as likely it will, replaces the Heiney), the Pro12 should be taken much more seriously.

Once interest becomes more focussed on the marginal places in mid-table, then growth of interest in the league will become more of an attraction to fans outside the cognescenti. With concern comes interest just as gates for relegation battles in the Premiership swell.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:The new RCC (if, as likely it will, replaces the Heiney), the Pro12 should be taken much more seriously.

Once interest becomes more focussed on the marginal places in mid-table, then growth of interest in the league will become more of an attraction to fans outside the cognescenti. With concern comes interest just as gates for relegation battles in the Premiership swell.

All it took was some blue sky thinking from a couple of successful 'business guys' to show the Rabo what 'good looked like' going forward.

The Rugby Champions Franglo will drag the Celts into the 21st Rugby Arena on its glorious coat-tail, whether they like it or not.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:The new RCC (if, as likely it will, replaces the Heiney), the Pro12 should be taken much more seriously.

Once interest becomes more focussed on the marginal places in mid-table, then growth of interest in the league will become more of an attraction to fans outside the cognescenti. With concern comes interest just as gates for relegation battles in the Premiership swell.

It will make bugger all difference apart from making the lowest clubs non competitive

I really really wish folk would stop with this nonsense.

The so-called "death of rugby" being threatened by the evil PRL/LNR, is as much the fault of the financially weak Rabo12 as it is the financially strong PLR and LNR.

unless and until the Rabo12 becomes a spectacle with the financial power (TV rights, merchandising, attendance, closeness of matches, competitiveness) to rival PRL/LNR, then the Rabo12 is always going to be excessively reliant on the HC (which is why Rabo12 teams prioritise HC obviously) and alway vulnerable in any negotiations with the frenglish.

so i think you are asking absolutely 100% the right question. the answer, or at least progress towards finding it, has been forced upon the Rabo12 by the concessions to HC qualification made recently:

- more competitive domestic league generates more interest
- winning generates support, attendance and leads to financial improvement - if some Rabo teams win euro matches in the 2nd tier tournament rather than always losing, this will surely help fan loyalty
- unfortunately the huge problem i see (apart from ireland) is the 4 unions sitting atop the Rabo. there is no real commercial pressure on the clubs themselves as a result of the setup, so over the long term the financial health of the league really suffers, for example, why did the SRU stop allowing embra to give away/offer really cheap seats to kids? where's the commercial drive to build club loyalty, brand and support?

TJ wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:The new RCC (if, as likely it will, replaces the Heiney), the Pro12 should be taken much more seriously.

Once interest becomes more focussed on the marginal places in mid-table, then growth of interest in the league will become more of an attraction to fans outside the cognescenti. With concern comes interest just as gates for relegation battles in the Premiership swell.

It will make bugger all difference apart from making the lowest clubs non competitive

I really really wish folk would stop with this nonsense.

the problem TJ is that the lowest clubs are already non competitive, both within the Rabo12 and HC. and with 7 or 8 entrants to HC there are still going to be some obviously weaker teams from the Rabo in the HC, particularly compared to 6 from the top14 for example.

teams whick lose do not generate support or commercial interest. look at whats happened to the average attendances at worcestor warriors over the last two seasons. it is undeniable.

That's because you think that Scotland deserves a living, TJ.

After 125+ years, Scotsmen in general do not appear to have grasped the fact that rugby can be played as a non-elitist, posh game. That plus the SRU's blinkered mismanagement of its heartlands.

quinsforever wrote:The so-called "death of rugby" being threatened by the evil PRL/LNR, is as much the fault of the financially weak Rabo12 as it is the financially strong PLR and LNR.

unless and until the Rabo12 becomes a spectacle with the financial power (TV rights, merchandising, attendance, closeness of matches, competitiveness) to rival PRL/LNR, then the Rabo12 is always going to be excessively reliant on the HC (which is why Rabo12 teams prioritise HC obviously) and alway vulnerable in any negotiations with the frenglish.

so i think you are asking absolutely 100% the right question. the answer, or at least progress towards finding it, has been forced upon the Rabo12 by the concessions to HC qualification made recently:

- more competitive domestic league generates more interest
- winning generates support, attendance and leads to financial improvement - if some Rabo teams win euro matches in the 2nd tier tournament rather than always losing, this will surely help fan loyalty
- unfortunately the huge problem i see (apart from ireland) is the 4 unions sitting atop the Rabo. there is no real commercial pressure on the clubs themselves as a result of the setup, so over the long term the financial health of the league really suffers, for example, why did the SRU stop allowing embra to give away/offer really cheap seats to kids? where's the commercial drive to build club loyalty, brand and support?

  It's Sunday. Can you not do some actual fishing?

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:That's because you think that Scotland deserves a living, TJ.

After 125+ years, Scotsmen in general do not appear to have grasped the fact that rugby can be played as a non-elitist, posh game. That plus the SRU's blinkered mismanagement of its heartlands.

They grasped American Football.

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:The so-called "death of rugby" being threatened by the evil PRL/LNR, is as much the fault of the financially weak Rabo12 as it is the financially strong PLR and LNR.

unless and until the Rabo12 becomes a spectacle with the financial power (TV rights, merchandising, attendance, closeness of matches, competitiveness) to rival PRL/LNR, then the Rabo12 is always going to be excessively reliant on the HC (which is why Rabo12 teams prioritise HC obviously) and alway vulnerable in any negotiations with the frenglish.

so i think you are asking absolutely 100% the right question. the answer, or at least progress towards finding it, has been forced upon the Rabo12 by the concessions to HC qualification made recently:

- more competitive domestic league generates more interest
- winning generates support, attendance and leads to financial improvement - if some Rabo teams win euro matches in the 2nd tier tournament rather than always losing, this will surely help fan loyalty
- unfortunately the huge problem i see (apart from ireland) is the 4 unions sitting atop the Rabo. there is no real commercial pressure on the clubs themselves as a result of the setup, so over the long term the financial health of the league really suffers, for example, why did the SRU stop allowing embra to give away/offer really cheap seats to kids? where's the commercial drive to build club loyalty, brand and support?

  It's Sunday. Can you not do some actual fishing?

thats pretty funny. however how is what i said fishing? its just a statement of fact based on overall revenues, and is the whole point of the OP. i'm just making the point that the relatively unequal financial strength of domestic leagues is what has caused the ruckus in Hc to be quite so bad (status quo bias vs willingness to do without HC at all).

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:The so-called "death of rugby" being threatened by the evil PRL/LNR, is as much the fault of the financially weak Rabo12 as it is the financially strong PLR and LNR.

unless and until the Rabo12 becomes a spectacle with the financial power (TV rights, merchandising, attendance, closeness of matches, competitiveness) to rival PRL/LNR, then the Rabo12 is always going to be excessively reliant on the HC (which is why Rabo12 teams prioritise HC obviously) and alway vulnerable in any negotiations with the frenglish.

so i think you are asking absolutely 100% the right question. the answer, or at least progress towards finding it, has been forced upon the Rabo12 by the concessions to HC qualification made recently:

- more competitive domestic league generates more interest
- winning generates support, attendance and leads to financial improvement - if some Rabo teams win euro matches in the 2nd tier tournament rather than always losing, this will surely help fan loyalty
- unfortunately the huge problem i see (apart from ireland) is the 4 unions sitting atop the Rabo. there is no real commercial pressure on the clubs themselves as a result of the setup, so over the long term the financial health of the league really suffers, for example, why did the SRU stop allowing embra to give away/offer really cheap seats to kids? where's the commercial drive to build club loyalty, brand and support?

  It's Sunday. Can you not do some actual fishing?

thats pretty funny. however how is what i said fishing? its just a statement of fact based on overall revenues, and is the whole point of the OP. i'm just making the point that the relatively unequal financial strength of domestic leagues is what has caused the ruckus in Hc to be quite so bad (status quo bias vs willingness to do without HC at all).

Aye, facts can be funny things. Not getting into the whole HEC thing. This happens to be a good thread, and I don't want to derail it  

Anywho, I'm away to visit someone. You may rush out and grab your big baggy Y-Fronts from the washing line before Jude gets em, or some unfortunate in Spain will be wearing them tomorrow  

Laters.

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:The so-called "death of rugby" being threatened by the evil PRL/LNR, is as much the fault of the financially weak Rabo12 as it is the financially strong PLR and LNR.

unless and until the Rabo12 becomes a spectacle with the financial power (TV rights, merchandising, attendance, closeness of matches, competitiveness) to rival PRL/LNR, then the Rabo12 is always going to be excessively reliant on the HC (which is why Rabo12 teams prioritise HC obviously) and alway vulnerable in any negotiations with the frenglish.

so i think you are asking absolutely 100% the right question. the answer, or at least progress towards finding it, has been forced upon the Rabo12 by the concessions to HC qualification made recently:

- more competitive domestic league generates more interest
- winning generates support, attendance and leads to financial improvement - if some Rabo teams win euro matches in the 2nd tier tournament rather than always losing, this will surely help fan loyalty
- unfortunately the huge problem i see (apart from ireland) is the 4 unions sitting atop the Rabo. there is no real commercial pressure on the clubs themselves as a result of the setup, so over the long term the financial health of the league really suffers, for example, why did the SRU stop allowing embra to give away/offer really cheap seats to kids? where's the commercial drive to build club loyalty, brand and support?

  It's Sunday. Can you not do some actual fishing?

thats pretty funny. however how is what i said fishing? its just a statement of fact based on overall revenues, and is the whole point of the OP. i'm just making the point that the relatively unequal financial strength of domestic leagues is what has caused the ruckus in Hc to be quite so bad (status quo bias vs willingness to do without HC at all).

Aye, facts can be funny things. Not getting into the whole HEC thing. This happens to be a good thread, and I don't want to derail it  

Anywho, I'm away to visit someone. You may rush out and grab your big baggy Y-Fronts from the washing line before Jude gets em, or some unfortunate in Spain will be wearing them tomorrow  

Laters.

  - definitely getting windy here...avoiding parks and scaffolding til tuesday...

Theres plenty of threads for the H-cup RCC debate. (also when I put it in the orginal post, I was thinking that, whatever the new European cup is, its likely to be sponsored by Heineken again, so will remain being called the H-cup).

So if your going to argue over these things please go to the other threads, this is focusing on increasing H-cup revenue.

I don't think more can be done as you mentioned all that can and will be done Kingshu. With regards to Wales, you're forgetting that we now host 'Judgement Day' in Cardiff, hopefully it's grown from last year and will continue to grow.

There definitely needs to be more rivalries. Ireland and Wales have had a great rivalry in recent years. If 3 of the 4 Regional teams weren't down sh*t creek I beilieve they would be more competitive with Ulster, Munster and Leinster. Then naturally the rivalry would follow. As it stands the Irish have jumped ahead again in development, on and off the field which leaves the rest trying to catch up.

Treviso had a good season last year and stuffed a couple of teams home and away. Hopefully they'll get better again because this year they seem to have gone backwards. Italy's rugby league team seem to have come out of nowhere and start beating teams. Perhaps their union can nick some players from the other code and help improve their domestic structure...

Even as a Welshman I can see that the main problem in the Rabo is the Welsh teams.

Wales needs better policies with regard to such things as 'play in Wales to play for Wales'. Ireland are only allowed to select 1 overseas player in a squad, currently that is Sexton. This is why I see Copeland leaving the Blues to go back to Ireland sooner rather than later.

Both Roberts and Lydiate both said they would have stayed in Wales if that policy was in place. You would have to think that Mike Phillips, Paul James, Lee Byrne, Craig Mitchell, Gill, George North,Luke Charteris, Aled Brew, James Hook and others (dare I say Gavin Henson) would all think along the same lines if that policy was implemented.

How much stronger would the regions be with those sorts of players and how much better would the results and crowds be.

The obvious issue is the funding of those players.

I honestly think the changes will make the Rabo a better and more intense league. There is a top 4 position to play for to get in the playoffs. But also now there is the 5th spot which will guarantee HC rugby but also down to 7th which gives you a great chance and then 8th and 9th giving you one more crack with a play off against an English or French 7th placed team.

If the league can get a new decent sponsor involved. A decent domestic deal with Sky and a better European deal with BT then maybe it will give all the Rabo teams the ability to implement similar systems to Ireland and hence have all the best Irish Welsh Scottish and Italian players in 1 league.

Potentially it could be great.

Again from a Welsh perspective there is no reason why Ospreys Blues Scarlets and Dragons should not be on a par with Ulster Munster Leinster and Glasgow.

drnic wrote:Again from a Welsh perspective there is no reason why Ospreys Blues Scarlets and Dragons should not be on a par with Ulster Munster Leinster and Glasgow.

Neither can I.
Although I still say that had the Welsh not had a leaden generation whilst the Irish alchemists produced a golden one at the time of its genesis, the whole shape of NH (or more specifically, the context and format of the CL) might have been entirely different.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

drnic wrote:Again from a Welsh perspective there is no reason why Ospreys Blues Scarlets and Dragons should not be on a par with Ulster Munster Leinster and Glasgow.

Neither can I.
Although I still say that had the Welsh not had a leaden generation whilst the Irish alchemists produced a golden one at the time of its genesis, the whole shape of NH (or more specifically, the context and format of the CL) might have been entirely different.

Portnoy I think you are being a little harsh about the leaden generation, yes the Irish Regions have done better in the HC, my team the Os have more than matched them in the Rabo or Magners or whatever you want to call them and then at International level we have a decent enough record. When you have the National Union in direct competition with the Regions. When Wales play Australia in the 4th AI we have to play against a full strength Glasgow at the Liberty and the following week we play Castres away with 2 training sessions in the HC, we had the same last year against Toulouse and people wonder why don't we do better. Considering we have a cap of £3,5mill that is less than every team in the HC apart possibly from the Italians even the Scottish Regions supposedly have £4 million to use.

You could run a World Cup or an Olympic Games without selling a single ticket. TV money and sponsorship pays for modern sport. France and England have a large advantage in having a much larger domestic TV audience. So the Rabo's will always be more dependent on Euro Cup money. A fact nicely exploited by the Franglo's recently.

The Rabo can just concentrate on a few things. Keep the best players in the league. Ease restrictions on player appearances. The best Rabo game are of a higher quality than anything in England or France (the Top14 is truly awful). So with the help of Sky, we could build an aura as the highest quality rugby in Europe and build a fanbase outside the countries involved. Sounds difficult, but a lot of people in Europe watch Super Rugby because it's seen as the best.

By the way, I've heard BT's initial football ratings are dire. Haven't heard anything about rugby.

And what 'golden generation' players see that Ulster are better than the Welsh teams at the moment Portnoys?

The Provinces have been run better than the regions- not to say that the IRFU and the Chairmen and Directors of Rugby/coaches in the provinces are geniuses. More that the regions have not employed business/coaching talent that can take them to the next level on or off the pitch. The very start of regionalisation involved hugely acrimonious slights to the exact people they needed to market the regions too in many cases....

Ireland have always produced great players- guys like O'Driscoll, O'Connell, Wallace and O'Gara would have come through and starred for Ireland but not played out their club careers in Irish rugby if it wasn't for the business and coaching nous in their respective provinces making them feel like they were in an environment where they could achieve their ambitions and the IRFU setting up a central contract system which allowed us to retain players on wages competitive to what they could earn elsewhere at the time.

The whole competition of rugby needs to find some balance. Excitement comes from a match where either team could win. Having excessively rich clubs of superstars play against teams made up with a couple of fringe internationals and academy players is not good viewing. The aim for the new euro comp where there has been a lot of talk of fairness, should be to ensure that every group is a group of death, that the ospreys and treviso can compete with toulouse and toulon. The pro12 needs to ensure that they all make connaught, zebre the dragons as competitive as leinster and ulster. With more competitiveness there will be more desire to watch.
The nfl achieved this parity to some degree why can't rugby?

doctornickolas wrote:Even as a Welshman I can see that the main problem in the Rabo is the Welsh teams.

Wales needs better policies with regard to such things as 'play in Wales to play for Wales'. Ireland are only allowed to select  1 overseas player in a squad, currently that is Sexton. This is why I see Copeland leaving the Blues to go back to Ireland sooner rather than later.

Both Roberts and Lydiate both said they would have stayed in Wales if that policy was in place. You would have to think that Mike Phillips, Paul James, Lee Byrne, Craig Mitchell, Gill, George North,Luke Charteris, Aled Brew, James Hook and others (dare I say Gavin Henson) would all think along the same lines if that policy was implemented.

How much stronger would the regions be with those sorts of players and how much better would the results and crowds be.

The obvious issue is the funding of those players.

I honestly think the changes will make the Rabo a better and more intense league. There is a top 4 position to play for to get in the playoffs. But also now there is the 5th spot which will guarantee HC rugby but also down to 7th which gives you a great chance and then 8th and 9th giving you one more crack with a play off against an English or French 7th placed team.

If the league can get a new decent sponsor involved. A decent domestic deal with Sky and a better European deal with BT then maybe it will give all the Rabo teams the ability to implement similar systems to Ireland and hence have all the best Irish Welsh Scottish and Italian players in 1 league.

Potentially it could be great.

Again from a Welsh perspective there is no reason why Ospreys Blues Scarlets and Dragons should not be on a par with Ulster Munster Leinster and Glasgow.

Agree that the ambition should be to keep the players here. Agree also that the sides would be better for them. Can't agree that attendances would be higher (although logic would suggest that they should be); they weren't higher when those players were here one or two seasons ago, and they haven't dropped now that these players have left. Attendances for the welsh regions has a general upwards trend since inception, albeit a very small increase year on year.

doddieman wrote:The whole competition of rugby needs to find some balance. Excitement comes from a match where either team could win. Having excessively rich clubs of superstars play against teams made up with a couple of fringe internationals and academy players is not good viewing. The aim for the new euro comp where there has been a lot of talk of fairness, should be to ensure that every group is a group of death, that the ospreys and treviso can compete with toulouse and toulon. The pro12 needs to ensure that they all make connaught, zebre the dragons as competitive as leinster and ulster. With more competitiveness there will be more desire to watch.
The nfl achieved this parity to some degree why can't rugby?

The NFL has a draft system. I believe it means that the weakest teams get the first choice of the college draft players. They eventually then even out in terms of quality across the teams. Can't see a draft happening in rugby, and certainly not when there are 4 countries worth if players.

I can't comment much on Wales as I don't know a lot about the situation but surely, from what I've read on here, it's traditional club politics that are holding them back and therefore the regions should drop any connection with former clubs i.e drop Cardiff from the Cardiff blues name and play smaller games elsewhere much like Munster.
Scotland is simple, if the teams start winning then crowds will come just look at Edinburgh's HC run and Glasgow started to play good, successful rugby last season and the results came. I also think they should become bigger nationally and rather have their games on ALBA they should have their games on mainstream TV.
The SKY deal could be huge because the league has so much potential as it has a mix of traditional rugby areas and areas with large population, Italy and Scotland have room for growth as well if the league becomes bigger.

Feckless Rogue wrote:You could run a World Cup or an Olympic Games without selling a single ticket. TV money and sponsorship pays for modern sport. France and England have a large advantage in having a much larger domestic TV audience. So the Rabo's will always be more dependent on Euro Cup money. A fact nicely exploited by the Franglo's recently.

The Rabo can just concentrate on a few things. Keep the best players in the league. Ease restrictions on player appearances. The best Rabo game are of a higher quality than anything in England or France (the Top14 is truly awful). So with the help of Sky, we could build an aura as the highest quality rugby in Europe and build a fanbase outside the countries involved. Sounds difficult, but a lot of people in Europe watch Super Rugby because it's seen as the best.

By the way, I've heard BT's initial football ratings are dire. Haven't heard anything about rugby.

I heard that most of the money comes from season ticket sales. For example Leinster have 13000 season ticket holders. So if we multiply 13,000 by say 300 its 3.9 million. Then you have merchandise etc.

althought with the French sugar daddy's your right that we will have to find an extra way of getting income.

Griff wrote:

doddieman wrote:The whole competition of rugby needs to find some balance. Excitement comes from a match where either team could win. Having excessively rich clubs of superstars play against teams made up with a couple of fringe internationals and academy players is not good viewing. The aim for the new euro comp where there has been a lot of talk of fairness, should be to ensure that every group is a group of death, that the ospreys and treviso can compete with toulouse and toulon. The pro12 needs to ensure that they all make connaught, zebre the dragons as competitive as leinster and ulster. With more competitiveness there will be more desire to watch.
The nfl achieved this parity to some degree why can't rugby?

The NFL has a draft system. I believe it means that the weakest teams get the first choice of the college draft players. They eventually then even out in terms of quality across the teams. Can't see a draft happening in rugby, and certainly not when there are 4 countries worth if players.

The NFL is much more complicated than a simple draft system. Firstly, ALL the participating clubs are professional and the declared goal of the NFL (equivalent of ERC in that it represents all the participants in the competition) is to make as much money as possible for ALL the NFL teams by creating as commercially valuable entertainment product as possible. [this is a pretty big difference between rabo12 unions and NFL...actually means what PRL are trying to do is more similar to NFL]

Good ideas from their league that i would throw out there are: home games are not shown on TV in the home state until the match tickets are at least 85% sold, all tv and league merchandising is shared equally between all teams, ticket revenue at every match is split 60% home team 40% away team.

Griff wrote:

doddieman wrote:The whole competition of rugby needs to find some balance. Excitement comes from a match where either team could win. Having excessively rich clubs of superstars play against teams made up with a couple of fringe internationals and academy players is not good viewing. The aim for the new euro comp where there has been a lot of talk of fairness, should be to ensure that every group is a group of death, that the ospreys and treviso can compete with toulouse and toulon. The pro12 needs to ensure that they all make connaught, zebre the dragons as competitive as leinster and ulster. With more competitiveness there will be more desire to watch.
The nfl achieved this parity to some degree why can't rugby?

The NFL has a draft system. I believe it means that the weakest teams get the first choice of the college draft players. They eventually then even out in terms of quality across the teams. Can't see a draft happening in rugby, and certainly not when there are 4 countries worth if players.

No, a draft system would not be possible but a wage cap across ALL teams that is achievable by all might help even things up a bit. Players can always make more for themselves through endorsements, sponsorship, appearances, etc.

doddieman wrote:

Griff wrote:

doddieman wrote:The whole competition of rugby needs to find some balance. Excitement comes from a match where either team could win. Having excessively rich clubs of superstars play against teams made up with a couple of fringe internationals and academy players is not good viewing. The aim for the new euro comp where there has been a lot of talk of fairness, should be to ensure that every group is a group of death, that the ospreys and treviso can compete with toulouse and toulon. The pro12 needs to ensure that they all make connaught, zebre the dragons as competitive as leinster and ulster. With more competitiveness there will be more desire to watch.
The nfl achieved this parity to some degree why can't rugby?

The NFL has a draft system. I believe it means that the weakest teams get the first choice of the college draft players. They eventually then even out in terms of quality across the teams. Can't see a draft happening in rugby, and certainly not when there are 4 countries worth if players.

No, a draft system would not be possible but a wage cap across ALL teams that is achievable by all might help even things up a bit. Players can always make more for themselves through endorsements, sponsorship, appearances, etc.

it does seem pretty unlikely to me that you would get any measures which the IRFU are going to endorse if it reduces the competitive superiority enjoyed by their club sides (and therefore their share of the HC merit payments). totally understandable, and i would expect if the welsh club sides were the perennial outperformance they would do likewise. this, to me, seems like the heart of any issue to improve competitiveness and commercial value within a league of 4 separate unions.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I heard that most of the money comes from season ticket sales. For example Leinster have 13000 season ticket holders. So if we multiply 13,000 by say 300 its 3.9 million. Then you have merchandise etc.

althought with the French sugar daddy's your right that we will have to find an extra way of getting income.

3.9 million wouldn't even cover the wage bill. Its the TV money and sponsorship which is the financial backbone for the league - ticket sales are a given. At the minute for the Irish teams that money is coming mainly from the 6N and then to a lesser extent the Heino.

We need to get to a point were the league is financially lucrative enough that the heino is a bonus rather than a vital source of income.

I think people forget though that the European cup has been going longer than the Celtic League. It's moving in the right direction but unfortunately not quickly enough to prevent the Franglos doing number on us this time.

Thast is the galling part of it all rodders - we established the format of the Pro 12 to fit in with the format of the european cup then it used as an excuse to alter the european cup.

To go to the original point - TV money is cruicial - gates and sponsership do add some money but the big money needs to come from TV rights. Hopefully now the Pro 12 is producing good rugby the value of the TV rights will go up - especially if we can get TV companies into a bidding war - which is more likely now that BT are wanting a slice of the action. BBC scotland did not pick up the TV coverage - only Alba did and I assume Alba did not pay as much as a more mainstream broadcaster would.

If we look at a few teams i think we can draw some ideas on how everyone moves froward. I hope all my facts are right.

For a few years the SRU focused on paying down debt which resulted in players leaving. The 2 teams dropped down the table to whete they were fighting it out with the new italians. It ended with Scotland not getting out of their RWC group having sacrificed the 2 districts.
They focused on the 2 teams and bring back international players back home which has seen Glasgow become one of the top teams while Edinburgh have had the euro run.
I think serectly Edinburgh fans will relish playing in the Tier 2 competition as they would have to be one of the favorites.
Crowds are growing in Scotland

Ulster have grown off the field as they have done better on the field and have had the same players more or less with a change here and their so they are a team that knows each other. Same could be said for connacht.

O's seems to have the most fans in wales which is probably due to their success. But each region has grown each year. If the WRU did something like if you attend the double header you get the right to a ticket for one of the big AIs.
If you had 80k to the doubler that would do wonders for the average attendance.

I think getting an A-league going would help. It would help build support in the regions. In scotland you could have the boarder warriors and highland gunners which would play around the area helping to grow support and build for a new region. Munster could go to the countries that aren't cork and limerick.

Also if the teams agreed that the week they were on sky they would play their best 15 and the unions wouldn't be running training camps. Best teams on sky and they will grow the product for us. So the week of the 4th AI there would be no welsh team shown.

Brendon - I assure you this Edinburgh fan hates the idea of playing in a meaningless second tier competition. Crowds will collapse. Edinburgh support is fickle - we have very little in the way of committed fans as we have little history. People like me will simply go to club games instead or not go at all.

TJ wrote:Thast is the galling part of it all rodders - we established the format of the Pro 12 to fit in with the format of the european cup then it used as an excuse to alter the european cup.

To go to the original point - TV money is cruicial - gates and sponsership do add some money but the big money needs to come from TV rights.  Hopefully now the Pro 12 is producing good rugby the value of the TV rights will go up - especially if we can get TV companies into a bidding war - which is more likely now that BT are wanting a slice of the action.  BBC scotland did not pick up the TV coverage - only Alba did and I assume Alba did not pay as much as a more mainstream broadcaster would.

We must remember that there is still about 15m people in Soctland Wales and Ireland with another 2m in italy roughly which is still sizeable not including the 2-5m of expats in England. So the market is there. If we give Sky one game a weak preferrably between teams from different countries they can bill it well and bring in the international edge which we should play up not down.
Being Irish i will watch anything that is irish weather it be a club or national side carrying the hopes of my nation.
We may laugh at Sarries but play a few games in places with large expat comunity. Treviso v munster in NY would build on the rivalry between two of NYs big comunities. I am sure it would help the USA and selling Pro12 in the US

I am all in favour of trying different things to build an audience. for Edinburgh with the big ground to fill it should be free / cheap tickets - especially for kids. Better to have 5000 paying a tenner and 5000 free kids than 2000 paying £20

TJ wrote:Brendon - I assure you this Edinburgh fan hates the idea of playing in a meaningless second tier competition.  Crowds will collapse.  Edinburgh support is fickle - we have very little in the way of committed fans as we have little history.  People like me will simply go to club games instead or not go at all.

Look at Cardiff or even connacht who had cup run in the lower tier. Sell it as look what the English/french are forcing on us but Scotland is better and will win. This year apart from Bath and Stade I think Cardiff & Endinburgh would fancy winning that. Look at leinster, knocked out of the HC but had great joy in winning a euro cup.

Plus we need to remember when it comes time to review the Euro affair the Rabo needs to show that are lower teams are just to good for the lower Prem & T14 teams and they will put it back up to 24 teams with more Pro12. If our teams dont win we have no streght in a couple of years demanding change.

No chance of it being put back to 24 teams or the PRL allowing any more Rabo teams in. They have got what they wanted - to handicap the Pro 12 teams stopping them being able to build for the future.

The complete match tv rights need to move away from the BBC. That will increase more revenue, more sponsorship (when HEC ends, Heineken Pro 12 perhaps?) and also enoucrage the 'tv fan' to actually go to a game and not watch it on the box.

I do hope for increased competition for the TV rights which will push the price up.

TJ wrote:I am all in favour of trying different things to build an audience.  for Edinburgh with the big ground to fill it should be free / cheap tickets - especially for kids.  Better to have 5000 paying a tenner and 5000 free kids than 2000 paying £20

I definately think someone in the SRU needs to say to edinburgh you need say 45k (including drinks etc) a match day come up with it as you like. If you could get 20k in there for £2 who spent £15 on food would make money. Or if they did deals with pubs, clubs and shops that they get cheap advertising if they give a discount to people with match day tickets.

A few years ago they did give away ( or sell cheap I can't remember) tickets to voluntary organisations - we used a few of those.   I think for edinburgh the key thing is to expand the audience.  Give tickets to schools, lets kids in for free.  Get 'em hooked and get people to get in the habit of going to the games

There are 3 teams sky will have no interest in showing which is connacht dragons and zebre. Everyone else sky will want to show as thet are big names.

I think Sky would pay a premium for the big game each week and force the BBC & RTE to pay top dollar for the derbies. We could look at setanta and others or sell our euro and Pro12 packages together.

Ah here now there are two strands of debate here

- one is how the league itself can become more financially lucrative

- the other is how the more poorly supported sides can bring in more fans and revenue.

In my opinion if the former is resolved then this will help with the latter issue.

For this to happen we need a single body to negotiate TV rights and sponsorship, with that money being distributed equally among the sides.

The big problem at the minute is you have four individual unions all working unilaterally within the league for their own interests.

If a single negotiating body can sell the product on behalf of the likes of Munster, Leinster, Scarlets, Treviso - then the Pro12 is a good product for commercial sponsors to invest in. The weaker, less supported teams can be propped financially up by the bigger name teams within the league. In the long term this will make things more competitive.

If its every union for itself then that weakens the league from a commercial perspective.

rodders wrote:Ah here now there are two strands of debate here

- one is how the league itself can become more financially lucrative

- the other is how the more poorly supported sides can bring in more fans and revenue.

In my opinion if the former is resolved then this will help with the latter issue.

For this to happen we need a single body to negotiate TV rights and sponsorship, with that money being distributed equally among the sides.

The big problem at the minute is you have four individual unions all working unilaterally within the league for their own interests.

If a single negotiating body can sell the product on behalf of the likes of Munster, Leinster, Scarlets, Treviso - then the Pro12 is a good product for commercial sponsors to invest in. The weaker, less supported teams can be propped financially up by the bigger name teams within the league. In the long term this will make things more competitive.

If its every union for itself then that weakens the league from a commercial perspective.

I think it is stupid that you can watch your home games on tv and not your away ones. Swap that and you'd surely see a 5% rise in attendances.

Might help italy as they could show more than one game a week

I think more TV exposure will lad to bigger crowds. Gets a buzz going, gets it to the attention of more people

TJ what are the figures on Alba. I will often watch it in Ireland on freeview but i doubt i'm included.