How to make the Pro 12 better financially?

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So it appears when the new H-cup is agreed that the Pro 12 Unions will be receiving less than they did (in terms of % of profit rather than actual £, as they are guaranteed to get as least the same as before).

Therefore to keep up with the French and English, we have to generate more income from the Pro 12.

How do you think the Unions and the league as a collective can go about increasing the Pro 12 revenue streams?

Some games moving to SKY, I believe will be a boost as with SKY you get publicity and marketing that is far beyond what BBC/RTE etc are capable of, and should increase the appear of the League.

The new qualification method will generate a little more grudge and excitement for the mid table teams, and a bit more international rivalry, as its not just teams from your own Union you have to finish ahead of.

However I think the real boost would be if the League can gain popularity in Scotland and Wales.

What I could never figure out is how the Scottish Claymores (a European American football team that used to play in the European league) could average 11,000 a game, and the 2 Scottish rugby teams can only dream of an average attendance this high?

There are many similarities between them, both playing what would be considered a minority sport in Scotland, in a cross European league. However rugby has the advantages of being a more popular sport in Scotland than American Football, is in a top league (Claymores were in a second rate league) playing against and competing with some of the best teams in the world. Yet they attract an average crowd of about 4000 to Claymores 11,000 average?

I'd love to know what the Claymores did to win this appeal in Scotland, that Rugby isn't doing? This average couldn't just be down to being a novelty as its from 10 seasons? Could it be down to Claymores being quite successful winning their league for the first two years? can we expect something similar if Glasgow win the league or H-cup (Glasgow have been making play offs for a while now has that helped?). Can whatever the Claymores did be used as a template for Scottish and Welsh sides?

In Wales its been said that winning the H-cup would see a big interest for the regions, would this really hold true? Ospreys are multiple league winners, and while their attendance is good, I don't think it is at the level that was hoped for.

Would creating a big grudge with other teams entice Welsh fans? Ospreys Munster used to be one, Ospreys Leinster is a friendly enough one, but if SKY built these up to be real grudge matches would this see Welsh fans flock to the League games? Will the double headers help?

And Ireland isn't perfect, what do we need to do here? Should we consider a double header? Better sponsorship? Move games around provinces more?

What do you think the Pro 12 can do, to increase its revenue to try to match that o the Aviva Prem?

No idea what the viewing figures are.  It will be committed fans only tho I guess -we need to get the casual fans in.  We need to create a buzz, we need to promote it.  Again a few years ago there were posters on buses advertising the game - now nothing.  the SRU have been concentrating on not spending money rather than promoting the game.  Its a big ish city with two poor football teams - there are plenty of sports fans out there and plenty of rugby clubs.  What is needed is to get people talking about it.  Free givaways / competitions on the local radio stations.  Make it a must see event and a cheap day out.  Not £100 for a family to go - but £20

Want kind of position are the grassroots clubs in to say be given free tickets to get them to get people to come

Dont really agree with the give tickets away apporach, its been tried by both Pro teams in Scotland and it does not look like its had much success.

Certainly at Glasgow, at one of the fans meetings that the last couple of free tickets deals were a disaster as the uptake was minimal and their research showed that most of the people who took the tickets, were people who would have come along and paid.

Kids tickets should be cheaper, but you can get a kids Season ticket for what £50 or something like that and a match ticket is £5. How cheap to people actually want it?

If you look at the peak attendances for both the pro teams, they both match up to when the teams were playing well on the park. Its on the park success that drives crowds. Yes, marketing plays a part but its all about what happens on the pitch.

Glasgow are in a different position to Edinburgh as they sell out a small ground.

The promotions that were run a few years ago in Edinburgh were a big success in my view and got a lot of uncommitted fans into the ground and built crowds.  In my view its all about building for the future.  Get people especially kids interested now and create committed fans for life.  Me and my friends sometimes have not even realised a home game is on that weekend - no advertising at all.  there are 70 000 seats to fill.  surely getting a big crowd in even if the gate is the same helps create a buzz?

I think all kids should be free at edinburgh. different teams need different approaches tho for sure

It's all about averages.  

There is no way a League that is mostly centred on a population density of some 12 million people will ever challenge the English League or French league in terms of bums on seats (either in TV land or at stadiums).

If there was this huge potential for an increase in attendances at Pro12 games then you'd have to correlate that with an equally increased potential for even more interest to rise in England and France.

So increase in Pro12 interest is relative to whatever increase in interest might emerge for the other Leagues too.  Most interest will always attract most big TV coverage deals, and those deals will inevitably attract the biggest sponsors; and both of those will inevitably attract the best players.

I'm not so certain English or French rugby will grow within the confines of their own nations.  I think they've achieved their levels of interest and those levels will be sustained - therefore, I don't really see where this massive upturn in fans is going to come from Wales, Scotland or Ireland either.

What English and French rugby want, in order to sustain their 'growth', is to spread the new audience for specifically AP and Top14 to outside their own borders.  They individually want people watching their individual Leagues all over the world.  That's where they see the increase in market value - not the mostly static one that already exists within their own borders.
For AP and Top14, the static 'home' audience is simply the image that provides a 'full attendance' look on TV,...but the future money generation will be thousands of miles away in all directions - into the Americas and down to the SH and Asia.

So, perhaps the Pro12 navel gazes too much when worrying about increasing 'home' crowds - and perhaps too that's why outside Leagues taunt the Pro12 about those attendances.  All European leagues are competitors, not partners.  The French and English Leagues never were interested in 'making the Pro12 more meaningful'.  Crud.  They want it mostly dead.

So perhaps a new beginning for Pro12 is to try to at least tap into the only section of its audience that has yet to achieve true potential - the Italian one. (60 million population - similar to England and France).

Maybe for the next five years or so all Pro12 sides should agree to play a percentage of their games in Italy?  I mean games that do not include Italian teams but instead are some of the bigger hitting games of the Pro12 season - perhaps some hard nosed derby games.
So too, more of the deciding games could be played in Italy - some quarter finals, a semi-final, the final.
Give Italy more of a taste for the higher end of Pro12... allow them to become more familiar with the teams their sides fight against; and allow them to see these teams when they are stuffed with their best players and playing it hard at the business end of the year.

Tap into the untapped section of our League first and then try to do what the 'big ideas' Leagues are trying to develop - try to muscle into other corners of the world - America, for example, with its large Italian and Irish generations, ready and waiting if marketed well enough towards the end of this decade.

It won't happen overnight - but the first place to try genuine expansion might be Italy itself, by offering them a slice of real Pro12 top level action.

Maybe the oys that run the PRO12 (is there such a body? Should there be?) might consider expanding the league even further. Persuade some teams from England to join the league - there have been plenty of names bandied about previously. Tap into the English market for a fan base and make the league more attractive that way too.

Mediased the Italian broadcaster is showing one game a week that doesn't feature an Italian team, the game isn't shown live but it's a good start.

SecretFly wrote:It's all about averages.  

There is no way a League that is mostly centred on a population density of some 12 million people will ever challenge the English League or French league in terms of bums on seats (either in TV land or at stadiums).

If there was this huge potential for an increase in attendances at Pro12 games then you'd have to correlate that with an equally increased potential for even more interest to rise in England and France.

So increase in Pro12 interest is relative to whatever increase in interest might emerge for the other Leagues too.  Most interest will always attract most big TV coverage deals, and those deals will inevitably attract the biggest sponsors; and both of those will inevitably attract the best players.

I'm not so certain English or French rugby will grow within the confines of their own nations.  I think they've achieved their levels of interest and those levels will be sustained - therefore, I don't really see where this massive upturn in fans is going to come from Wales, Scotland or Ireland either.

What English and French rugby want, in order to sustain their 'growth', is to spread the new audience for specifically AP and Top14 to outside their own borders.  They individually want people watching their individual Leagues all over the world.  That's where they see the increase in market value - not the mostly static one that already exists within their own borders.
For AP and Top14, the static 'home' audience is simply the image that provides a 'full attendance' look on TV,...but the future money generation will be thousands of miles away in all directions - into the Americas and down to the SH and Asia.

So, perhaps the Pro12 navel gazes too much when worrying about increasing 'home' crowds - and perhaps too that's why outside Leagues taunt the Pro12 about those attendances.  All European leagues are competitors, not partners.  The French and English Leagues never were interested in 'making the Pro12 more meaningful'.  Crud.  They want it mostly dead.

So perhaps a new beginning for Pro12 is to try to at least tap into the only section of its audience that has yet to achieve true potential - the Italian one. (60 million population - similar to England and France).

Maybe for the next five years or so all Pro12 sides should agree to play a percentage of their games in Italy?  I mean games that do not include Italian teams but instead are some of the bigger hitting games of the Pro12 season - perhaps some hard nosed derby games.
So too, more of the deciding games could be played in Italy - some quarter finals, a semi-final, the final.
Give Italy more of a taste for the higher end of Pro12... allow them to become more familiar with the teams their sides fight against; and allow them to see these teams when they are stuffed with their best players and playing it hard at the business end of the year.

Tap into the untapped section of our League first and then try to do what the 'big ideas' Leagues are trying to develop - try to muscle into other corners of the world - America, for example, with its large Italian and Irish generations, ready and waiting if marketed well enough towards the end of this decade.

It won't happen overnight - but the first place to try genuine expansion might be Italy itself, by offering them a slice of real Pro12 top level action.

Fly, This is a very thoughtful piece with a lot of good stuff.  My opinion is that Rugby has a lot of growth in it still to come, but we do need to act in partnership.  The rising tide raising all ships.  The Pro12 also needs to work together as a league to grow as a cohesive unit.

I agree the population base is not great for increasing revenue.  This is where we (Rugby) are in direct competition with other activities, sport being only one.  Television money is directly related to the number of people watching, so we need to get more people attending and watching on tv.  But there is a ceiling.  Part of the problem is there are different situations in each Pro12 nation.  Ireland seems to have it right, and once Ravenhill is expanded the three major teams will have good capacity in grounds which look good on tv.  Wales should be better than they are.  I would have thought the attention and crowds around having Premier League soccer in Wales should have sent shockwaves across the regions and WRU.  From my admittedly outside perspective, the weakest link appears to be Scotland. Over a century of Rugby ans all we get are a few thousand people through the gates?  Once again, we need to invest in strong cohesive Marketing campaign from the top level all the way to the local clubs.  Personally, I prefer league-wide Marketing as I feel the league needs a stronger identity.  Sell the sport and sell the league at the same time.  At the same time we reach to the grass roots to build the base of players and people interested.

A Marketing exec once told me one of the arts of Marketing is getting people to desire something they might not even need.  We need some of those evil Marketing types.  Edinburgh actually looks bad on tv because of all the empty seats.  The visual message is bad.  Unless they can find a smaller venue to fill, then they must try radical measures to put bodies in the seats.  

I disagree that Rugby has hit its limit in either England or France.  Once again, there seems a lack of central planning and strong message.  Actually, I am a bit unfair to France where the sport in the south is terrific.  Whatever we think about the people bankrolling the French clubs, it seems there is more 'brand awareness' about Rugby.  And these guys are spending money to bring people in to watch.  Eventually these people will have kids who will be raised in a Rugby culture.  This is real long term planning (although probably by accident more than design).  We need to do this across the UK and Ireland, once again as partners (the long term planning, that is, not the over-spending on salaries).  One strong inclusive message for Rugby. Parenthetically to this, I don't believe for one minute the European Cup negotiations have any impact on the ability to work together to grow the sport.  That would be immature and childish.  In business people hold their nose whilst working with other people all the time.  And are successful.  And we are talking the business of Rugby.  

I left off Italy partially because I don't understand what they are doing.  They need one club in Milan, not out in the middle of a cow pasture in the middle of nowhere.  Seriously, their Pro12 representatives are not in a city.  They can't grow this way.  A better plan would have been a team in Milan and one in Rome.  We need some French money men their to guide them (somewhat).

The best way to grow Rugby, of course, is globally.  For a number of years the RFU sponsored the Churchill Cup in North America.  Each year the England A (Saxons) would play the US, Canada, and three other nations.  That seemed a great idea, but there was no Marketing surrounding it.   So it died. I am not aware of other nations doing anything similar, but I think if it was handled better, it cold  have been big.  One mistake was not having Ireland A (Wolfhounds?) each year, considering the large Irish connections in North America.  

I also think what Saracens are doing is good.  Trying to bring matches to other countries is terrific.  Belgium and US are great examples.  Munster probably has the best 'brand awareness' of any Rugby team with North Americans.  One or two matches each season could bring in big money and improve exposure.  

So, I believe we have a lot of growth yet for Rugby both at home and around the world.  The Pro12 needs to establish an identity outside the core Rugby fans, and Rugby needs to do the same on a larger basis.  I think this is the path to growth.  We can all grow together.

Fly this is exactly the point I was trying to make - the growth potential does not exist within the 3 Celtic nations - big sponsors don't give a bollix if there is 1 person at a game or 10k.

It's about the TV viewer potential - there is a huge untapped market in Italy but also in ex-pats and casual viewers in other countries. Within the Celtic nations the scope for growth is pretty minor in terms of viewers - but overall there is massive potential to attract an audience on par with the other pro leagues. The celtic unions and stake holders need to be much less insular in their outlook.

TV - Currently managed individually, spread across TG4, RTE, BBC NI, BBC ALBA, S4C (and is it shown in Italy).  We need to do a couple of things here, bring in a more centralised tv rights approach. Get the broadcaster to pay attention to the action in the league and not just that nations fixtures and results. Get a proper league wide highlights show going and roll it out to each of the nations.

Sponsorship - We need to demonstrate media penetration for news/updates on all of the teams and start showing sponsors of the potential market they can reach on a pan-european level.  A strong title sponsor is also required.

Merchandise - need to improve visibility of jerseys and merchandise

Game attendance - better marketing needed for many teams, we aren't very good at promoting what we have (we spend most of our time defending our weaknesses to PRL/LNR).  I do think taking something like an Aironi fixture each season and putting it in NY would do wonders.  A big italian-american market and drop in a Munster/Leinster as the away team and all of a sudden we can really bring the headlines round the world and expand the game.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:TV - Currently managed individually, spread across TG4, RTE, BBC NI, BBC ALBA, S4C (and is it shown in Italy).  We need to do a couple of things here, bring in a more centralised tv rights approach. Get the broadcaster to pay attention to the action in the league and not just that nations fixtures and results. Get a proper league wide highlights show going and roll it out to each of the nations.

Sponsorship - We need to demonstrate media penetration for news/updates on all of the teams and start showing sponsors of the potential market they can reach on a pan-european level.  A strong title sponsor is also required.

Merchandise - need to improve visibility of jerseys and merchandise

Game attendance - better marketing needed for many teams, we aren't very good at promoting what we have (we spend most of our time defending our weaknesses to PRL/LNR).  I do think taking something like an Aironi fixture each season and putting it in NY would do wonders.  A big italian-american market and drop in a Munster/Leinster as the away team and all of a sudden we can really bring the headlines round the world and expand the game.

I have never understood why there is no league hightlights show. Till we have that we will struggle to build attendances outside of the derbies

Pot Hale wrote:Maybe the oys that run the PRO12 (is there such a body?  Should there be?) might consider expanding the league even further.   Persuade some teams from England to join the league - there have been plenty of names bandied about previously.   Tap into the English market for a fan base and make the league more attractive that way too.  

This.


You'll open up access to new markets, have promotion and relegation which would be interesting. Its would also help spread the game throughout Europe which eventually leads to new national sides.


I'm not sure the local markets have been saturated yet. Professional rugby is still not that old and new fans are watching all the time. Those fans won't turn hard core over night but you do have more and more rugby fans popping up. Attendances for the league are growing every year and with sky sports on board I'm sure they'll give it a massive boost by hyping it up. You'll have Will Greenwood drooling at the prospect of Zebre taking on Connacht.

I know the SRU used to think that more TV = less people in thru the gates. Myself I doubt that is true - you need TV coverage to bring it to peoples attention

More TV means more money and sponsorship.
More money means better players.
Better players means more people through the gates.

Initially there is a hit in attendances with TV coverage but if the TV audiences are good the league can negotiate a better contract, and sponsors, and that money should be distributed equally amongst the sides.

TJ wrote:I know the SRU used to think that more TV = less people in thru the gates.  Myself I doubt that is true - you need TV coverage to bring it to peoples attention

The more that they show Edinburgh playing in front of 500 people in Murrayfield, the less I want to travel over there for a game. Even some slight smarts could work, how about selling tickets for the main stand that the camera points across at first? give the sense of a crowd being at the game.  Also, we don't confirm our match schedule and times until quite late.  But we then appear to leave ourselves having some games clashing with, how can I put this, more prime time fixtures elsewhere.  We should be flexible to pick up some of the more casual fan by having our primetime game just before or just after the main sporting fixture of a weekend so the pubs and tv viewer can flick over, etc.

One other point, do the Irish provinces have to get a little bit weaker for the Pro12 to flourish? Maybe I should spin that as do the other teams have to get stronger but it seems to be Ulster/Leinster for the last while with Munster/Osprey coming into focus come playoff time. Glasgow have been the welcome addition at the top end.  Is it dominated too much by Irish provinces, 3 of them will probably be in with a shout of the playoffs up to the final game (or at most two games) of the season.

They used to sell the tickets for the west stand - and the cameras look to the east which was empty. Now they do sell tickets for just the east stand - its just the east stand takes 20 000 people so 4000 in it ( a normal sort of gate) still looks empty

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

One other point, do the Irish provinces have to get a little bit weaker for the Pro12 to flourish? Maybe I should spin that as do the other teams have to get stronger but it seems to be Ulster/Leinster for the last while with Munster/Osprey coming into focus come playoff time. Glasgow have been the welcome addition at the top end.  Is it dominated too much by Irish provinces, 3 of them will probably be in with a shout of the playoffs up to the final game (or at most two games) of the season.

That's a very legitmate point, bandwagon.  Of course a competition always means more to you when you have a vested interest in the final rounds.  And therefore it's easy to see that if you don't have a local or regional side in the final stages then your interest won't be as involved emotionally.

So, yes it is always the case that a League where the same sides keep showing up at the top can get stale and ...well, boring.  And that's the same for the followers of the top sides too actually.  Complacency just don't hit the teams, it can sometimes effect the enjoyment of fans too.

But...I do think it really simply needs for non-Irish sides to force the issue.  Climb up and kill some of us off rather than that we should all wish Irish standards go down.  Standards going down in Pro12 might make it all more competitive but it's not going to help the League.

As you say, I don't genuinely think Irish sides are that dominant though.  Glasgow are there - Ospreys are always there.  One or two other sides, if they really made an effort, would undoubtedly make life tight towards the top.

I think its getting there.  Look at the torrid time Connacht gave both Saracens and then Leinster recently.  Bottom sides can challenge now.

I don't think that is an issue

Would anyone consider adopting a Super 15 style setup. National conferences with more derbies, and teams from each nation guaranteed in the playoffs. There would have to be a Scotalian conference at the moment. But it would be good if there could be four national conferences of four teams. Then winner of each conference goes to the playoffs.

I know this makes it a slightly unfairer competition because there are stronger conferences and weaker conferences. This is a complaint of Super rugby fans. But they didn't go for that setup to make it fairer. They went for it to maximise the number of derby games to increase gate receipts, minimize travel to save money, have teams from all nations in the playoffs to maintain a large TV audience and get it all done in a reasonable number of games to keep the players fresh for internationals.

These are all real benefits to a conference system. I think it would be a good idea.

No - I like a league. See no point in conferences with 12 teams

Agree with TJ, I can't see a conference with only 12 teams. Besides, Super Rugby plays home and away only within their conferences, and only one match with most of the other teams. The Pro12 is already playing home and away with all teams in the league. The challenge is how to bring more people to watch in person and then on tv.

Super rugby has logistical challenges which make the conference system a logical approach. All our sides bar the Italian two are in close proximity. No need to overcomplicate things. Format is grand but maybe we could have the top 6 qualify for the play-offs with the top 2 given a week 1 bye like they do in RL.

Neutral venue for the final too please.

Looking back at Quins post, did the SRU really stop Edinburgh giving away free/cheap tickets to kids?? If so that beggars belief. I appreciate it may not be good financially in the short term, but the kids getting in free today and getting hooked are the season ticket holders in a few years time that you may not otherwise get. Maybe that's an overly simplistic view and if there are any economists on here that have studied these things and know differently feel free to put me straight - but on the face of it that's certainly how it seems to me.

Even if teams don't want to give out cheap/free tickets for Rabo games is there an A league equivalent (and frankly if there isn't couldn't they arrange one)? Game time for developing players and free entry for fans. Advertise it as a free family friendly day out. Make a bit of money on merchandise, food and drinks and start getting people into the game that way?

The other thing that would help is for the unions to insist on players playing for one of the home regions if they want to be considered for international duty. By all means let players that have moved abroad see out their existing contracts, but beyond that I think they ought to stay at home or forget it. I think it's better for the national sides to monitor and control the players training, and better for the clubs to be able to showcase the players that more casual fans see in the 6 nations and other internationals.

Big wrote:Looking back at Quins post, did the SRU really stop Edinburgh giving away free/cheap tickets to kids??  If so that beggars belief.  I appreciate it may not be good financially in the short term, but the kids getting in free today and getting hooked are the season ticket holders in a few years time that you may not otherwise get.  Maybe that's an overly simplistic view and if there are any economists on here that have studied these things and know differently feel free to put me straight - but on the face of it that's certainly how it seems to me.  

Even if teams don't want to give out cheap/free tickets for Rabo games is there an A league equivalent (and frankly if there isn't couldn't they arrange one)?  Game time for developing players and free entry for fans.  Advertise it as a free family friendly day out.  Make a bit of money on merchandise, food and drinks and start getting people into the game that way?

The other thing that would help is for the unions to insist on players playing for one of the home regions if they want to be considered for international duty.  By all means let players that have moved abroad see out their existing contracts, but beyond that I think they ought to stay at home or forget it.  I think it's better for the national sides to monitor and control the players training, and better for the clubs to be able to showcase the players that more casual fans see in the 6 nations and other internationals.

TJ told me this is what had happened in Scotland in another discussion on a different thread about experimenting with ways to boost longer term attendance.

Not so much a way to improve it financially, but in terms of competitivenes it would be good if the pro12 had a ranfurly shield type trophy involved too.

doctornickolas wrote: Ireland are only allowed to select  1 overseas player in a squad, currently that is Sexton.

Where did you get that idea from ?

It is incorrect

geoff999rugby wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:    Ireland are only allowed to select  1 overseas player in a squad, currently that is Sexton.

Where did you get that idea from ?

It is incorrect

I agree with you geoff, were we not picking bowe and geordie from abroad at the same time?

TJ wrote:Glasgow are in a different position to Edinburgh as they sell out a small ground.

The promotions that were run a few years ago in Edinburgh were a big success in my view and got a lot of uncommitted fans into the ground and built crowds.  In my view its all about building for the future.  Get people especially kids interested now and create committed fans for life.  Me and my friends sometimes have not even realised a home game is on that weekend - no advertising at all.  there are 70 000 seats to fill.  surely getting a big crowd in even if the gate is the same helps create a buzz?

I think all kids should be free at edinburgh.  different teams need different approaches tho for sure

TJ there are a lot of offers at Edinburgh, examples;

Buy 8 U18 tickets at £5 each and 2 adults go free, another way of looking at that is 2 adult tickets at £20 and 8 free kids
BOGOF was available for Treviso and Connacht games 2games for £20
The ticket site is also currently advertising a £50 for 5 adult tickets 'Friday night live' deal

Not sure they can do too much more atm apart from promoting these better.

One thing I've said before is they should do more targeting of students, there's about 80k students at Edinburgh's 4 Uni's plus the Colleges that's a big market to tap into

Was anyone a fan of scottish claymores and know what they did to get an average crowd of 10,000 into the same stadium Edinburgh can only get a 4000 average? Same city less popular sport in a 2nd rate league.

If they could do it, I just don't understand why Edinburgh can't?

Does anyone know/remember did they run buses, have really good ticket offers, was there a lot of advertisement? Were they on tv? Or mentioned on the news?

Was it they won the league the first year and people wanted to support a winning team. If Edinburgh won the league or h-cup would the crowds see a sudden expansion?

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:    Ireland are only allowed to select  1 overseas player in a squad, currently that is Sexton.

Where did you get that idea from ?

It is incorrect

I agree with you geoff, were we not picking bowe and geordie from abroad at the same time?

We were and if Murray, SOB and Heaslip went abroad next year they would all be picked as well.

There is no ceiling - the only (unwritten) criteria seems to be you must be a level above the local alternatives - Sexton fits that criteria, Copeland does not.

doctor_grey wrote:Agree with TJ, I can't see a conference with only 12 teams.  Besides, Super Rugby plays home and away only within their conferences, and only one match with most of the other teams.  The Pro12 is already playing home and away with all teams in the league.  The challenge is how to bring more people to watch in person and then on tv.    

how about inviting 2 french teams, a US region and a canadian region to make up to a pro 16. could do this as a conference style tournament with 2 levels of playoffs. the NFL does inter and outer conference games, means that teams arent playing the same teams year in year out aside from their local derbies.

I will ask my club if they would enter as the US team. Unfortunately, they seem to have an elderly inside centre with a broken neck at the moment............

On the other hand, why not have some pretty dancing girls on the way in to each stadium? Not the Adam Jones look alikes I have seen in Port Talbot, however.

quinsforever wrote:

Big wrote:Looking back at Quins post, did the SRU really stop Edinburgh giving away free/cheap tickets to kids??  If so that beggars belief.  I appreciate it may not be good financially in the short term, but the kids getting in free today and getting hooked are the season ticket holders in a few years time that you may not otherwise get.  Maybe that's an overly simplistic view and if there are any economists on here that have studied these things and know differently feel free to put me straight - but on the face of it that's certainly how it seems to me.  

Even if teams don't want to give out cheap/free tickets for Rabo games is there an A league equivalent (and frankly if there isn't couldn't they arrange one)?  Game time for developing players and free entry for fans.  Advertise it as a free family friendly day out.  Make a bit of money on merchandise, food and drinks and start getting people into the game that way?

The other thing that would help is for the unions to insist on players playing for one of the home regions if they want to be considered for international duty.  By all means let players that have moved abroad see out their existing contracts, but beyond that I think they ought to stay at home or forget it.  I think it's better for the national sides to monitor and control the players training, and better for the clubs to be able to showcase the players that more casual fans see in the 6 nations and other internationals.

TJ told me this is what had happened in Scotland in another discussion on a different thread about experimenting with ways to boost longer term attendance.

There used to be free givaways to voluntary organisations and other folk including schools. its was stopped - I don't know by who or what the reason was.

[/b]

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:    Ireland are only allowed to select  1 overseas player in a squad, currently that is Sexton.

Where did you get that idea from ?

It is incorrect

I agree with you geoff, were we not picking bowe and geordie from abroad at the same time?

I got it from here>

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/ulster-v-cardiff-blues-preview-6239327

Here's an extract of the interview with Copeland,

“I’m an Irishman and my dream is to pull the green shirt on back home,” said Copeland.

“I will continue to do my best in a Blue shirt to pull on an Ireland shirt.

“I’m on their radar as much as I can be but I know I have a lot of improvements to make and have a long way to go before I am a shoo-in.

“I have touched base with a few people back home and have had a few emails to get information.

“I think it’s more of a back up but I’m not going to stress too much about it.

“It’s a tricky situation with Ireland because they’re only allowed one overseas player in the squad, which is an issue for me as Jonny Sexton is probably the favourite for that despite how well I play.

“I only learnt about the rule on Tuesday and don’t have much knowledge of it. I was gutted when I heard about it.

“As players start to go abroad looking for new opportunities and more money that rule might have to change but right now that’s the situation.

If it is a rule, then it's a new one...and it's come in under most people's radar it seems.

My only suspicion is that it's a tightening up of the declared (amongst many International sides actually) desire that home based players would get preferential treatment in team selections.

In the new age that is upon us..and France club rugby going the way it's going, I suspect it's a new insurance policy rule.

doctornickolas wrote:
“As players start to go abroad looking for new opportunities and more money that rule might have to change but right now that’s the situation.

I thought that was an interesting comment. It doesn't seem to occur that instead of them rethinking the rule the players concerned should rethink looking abroad...

The big problem for the Rabo is one that cannot be solved easily - geography. There is very little away support for a lot of games and that's because of the huge distances involved. How may away fans at your typical Treviso game?

In England, all the clubs are relatively close together with the exception of perhaps Newcastle and Sale. Is it coincidence that they get small crowds?

I have a season ticket at Glasgow, and there are typically fewer than 100 opposition fans, except when playing Edinburgh or Ulster (a lot of Ulster men live in Glasgow I think!). It's because every where else is so blydy far away!

screamingaddabs wrote:The big problem for the Rabo is one that cannot be solved easily - geography.  There is very little away support for a lot of games and that's because of the huge distances involved.  How may away fans at your typical Treviso game?

In England, all the clubs are relatively close together with the exception of perhaps Newcastle and Sale.  Is it coincidence that they get small crowds?

I have a season ticket at Glasgow, and there are typically fewer than 100 opposition fans, except when playing Edinburgh or Ulster (a lot of Ulster men live in Glasgow I think!).  It's because every where else is so blydy far away!

All true..

I am 99% certain Copeland is miss informed

For Kingshu, from wiki:

The Scottish Claymores were an American football team from Scotland. The franchise played in the World League of American Football (later renamed NFL Europe) between 1995 and 2004

&

Closure

On October 21, 2004, NFL Europe announced that the Scottish Claymores would be discontinued in favour of a franchise in a more competitive German market. While Scotland's attendance average over their 10-season history of 11,306 was comparable to some Scottish Premier League clubs,[30] teams in Germany were able to consistently bring in more support.[31] Scotland were ultimately replaced by the Hamburg Sea Devils on November 24 for the 2005 NFL Europe season.[32] Despite closing, the Scottish Claymores identity is being maintained to induct players to their Hall of Fame, and as a means for promoting amateur American football in Scotland.

Ultimate outcome = closure
Season length = v short
Season timing = ? not sure, but certainly no amateur game played by 25k would-be paying fans to compete with
Marketing = Pro NFL marketing expertise

SecretFly wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:The big problem for the Rabo is one that cannot be solved easily - geography.  There is very little away support for a lot of games and that's because of the huge distances involved.  How may away fans at your typical Treviso game?

In England, all the clubs are relatively close together with the exception of perhaps Newcastle and Sale.  Is it coincidence that they get small crowds?

I have a season ticket at Glasgow, and there are typically fewer than 100 opposition fans, except when playing Edinburgh or Ulster (a lot of Ulster men live in Glasgow I think!).  It's because every where else is so blydy far away!

All true..

I think that the distance effecting attendance is a bit of a myth.

Traveling from Cardiff to Edinburgh/Glasgow is shorter than traveling from Stade/Racing to Toulon/Perpignan, and the tp 14 does ok for crowds in these games.
Its not much more than Exeter to Newcastle (if any) Wales to Dublin is not a difficult journey same as Scotland to Belfast. Meaning that only Connacht and Munster are the ones difficult to travel to and from, and these are handy enough for Leinster or Ulster fans.

If we look at it from a Welsh POV, the derbies should all be reachable, Leinster isn't a difficult journey by ferry. Glasgow and Edinburgh will take time, but are no further than any other major league, meaning 6 of the 11 (54%) away games are not any worse than any other league. Ulster Munster and Connacht require only a little more effort 27% of away games. 81% of away games are not really any more difficult than any other League.

If we left out the Italians, would this be that much worse than Jeff or Top 14?

Kingshu wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:The big problem for the Rabo is one that cannot be solved easily - geography.  There is very little away support for a lot of games and that's because of the huge distances involved.  How may away fans at your typical Treviso game?

In England, all the clubs are relatively close together with the exception of perhaps Newcastle and Sale.  Is it coincidence that they get small crowds?

I have a season ticket at Glasgow, and there are typically fewer than 100 opposition fans, except when playing Edinburgh or Ulster (a lot of Ulster men live in Glasgow I think!).  It's because every where else is so blydy far away!

All true..

I think that the distance effecting attendance is a bit of a myth.

Traveling from Cardiff to Edinburgh/Glasgow is shorter than traveling from Stade/Racing to Toulon/Perpignan...........

Population of the metropolitan area of Paris is probably about 12m.  Maybe the same as that of Wales, Scotland and Ireland combined?

- Have 2 divisions involving regional teams from new western European countries like Germany, Spain etc and even France and England. If theres a shortage then a few A teams can compete in the second division.
- 10 teams in the top flight if theres a European cup competition. If theres no European cup competition expand it to 14 teams.
- After 3 or 4 seasons introduce relegation and promotion between leagues. One place per season only.
- Market the league as a European league.


I also think a (new) marketing team should be brought in. I would put in conditions that TV companies show highlights from all the games instead of just matches from their own country. That would give it a more league like feeling and allow fans get to know other teams better.

Kingshu wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:The big problem for the Rabo is one that cannot be solved easily - geography.  There is very little away support for a lot of games and that's because of the huge distances involved.  How may away fans at your typical Treviso game?

In England, all the clubs are relatively close together with the exception of perhaps Newcastle and Sale.  Is it coincidence that they get small crowds?

I have a season ticket at Glasgow, and there are typically fewer than 100 opposition fans, except when playing Edinburgh or Ulster (a lot of Ulster men live in Glasgow I think!).  It's because every where else is so blydy far away!

All true..

I think that the distance effecting attendance is a bit of a myth.

Traveling from Cardiff to Edinburgh/Glasgow is shorter than traveling from Stade/Racing to Toulon/Perpignan, and the tp 14 does ok for crowds in these games.
Its not much more than Exeter to Newcastle (if any) Wales to Dublin is not a difficult journey same as Scotland to Belfast. Meaning that only Connacht and Munster are the ones difficult to travel to and from, and these are handy enough for Leinster or Ulster fans.

If we look at it from a Welsh POV, the derbies should all be reachable, Leinster isn't a difficult journey by ferry. Glasgow and Edinburgh will take time, but are no further than any other major league, meaning 6 of the 11 (54%) away games are not any worse than any other league. Ulster Munster and Connacht require only a little more effort 27% of away games. 81% of away games are not really any more difficult than any other League.

If we left out the Italians, would this be that much worse than Jeff or Top 14?

I think it is worse yes.

No ferries required for any games in the Jeff or the top 14. The big clubs are all in one region in the Jeff and the top 14 (the south of the country). As I said, Newcastle and Sale don't get good crowds! Aside from Sale and Newcastle the most northerly club in the jeff is Leicester! Look how far south that is on a map! All the clubs excluding Newcastle and Sale are contained in an area about the size of Wales but with a much higher population density. The higher density also helps as you are likely to have away fans for say Leicester living in London or away fans for London Irish living in Bath etc. This happens less when your teams are in different countries far from one another.

I don't think it is the only factor in that causes a low income from the rabo, but I think it is A factor.

A ferry is a ferrry
A Plane, a plane
A train, a train
And a car is a car.

They all move people from place to place but no, they're not the same. Taking a car from Dublin to Cork is still more popular than taking a plane - for a reason. - it's less fussy.

Put it this way, I think you'd see many more travelling Welsh arriving at English grounds if they were involved in a cross border League, than you'd expect to see in either Limerick, Glasgow or Rome And no that's not simply because English clubs would be a more natural enemy and as such more of a lure. It's simply less fussy and probably less expensive.

Shorters Car trips and train trips are easier than planes and ferrys.

Do Welsh fans travel away from home? Their teams are all in south Wales so in theory they should be travelling to away games in numbers.

I'd agree that traveling for away fans is a Factor, but not that big a factor.

As Scottish Claymores played in a league where the nearest team was London, the rest were in Germany, Spain and the Netherlands yet averaged over 11,000.

Also in the Top 14, we all know that most teams concentrate on their home games and not so much the away games sending out second teams. Are there that many travelling supports in the Top 14? Would be interesting to find that out?

To increase the profitability of the league I don't think attracting more traveling supporters is the way forward, but attracting more home supporters.

Reminder: The Scottish Claymores are no more.

Does banging on about them help?

wiki wrote:Closure

On October 21, 2004, NFL Europe announced that the Scottish Claymores would be discontinued in favour of a franchise in a more competitive German market. While Scotland's attendance average over their 10-season history of 11,306 was comparable to some Scottish Premier League clubs,[30] teams in Germany were able to consistently bring in more support.[31] Scotland were ultimately replaced by the Hamburg Sea Devils on November 24 for the 2005 NFL Europe season.[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Claymores#Closure

Did they ever make a profit? That's the point of pro sport.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Reminder: The Scottish Claymores are no more.

Does banging on about them help?

No....no.  But then, neither are any WW1 veterans alive anymore.  Didn't the last one die a few years ago?  And yet the BEEB have a thousand'n'something hours ready and waiting for us next year, and for the next four years after that.

Banging on about it won't help...but I'll still tune in for most of it

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Reminder: The Scottish Claymores are no more.

Does banging on about them help?

wiki wrote:Closure

On October 21, 2004, NFL Europe announced that the Scottish Claymores would be discontinued in favour of a franchise in a more competitive German market. While Scotland's attendance average over their 10-season history of 11,306 was comparable to some Scottish Premier League clubs,[30] teams in Germany were able to consistently bring in more support.[31] Scotland were ultimately replaced by the Hamburg Sea Devils on November 24 for the 2005 NFL Europe season.[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Claymores#Closure

Did they ever make a profit? That's the point of pro sport.

While they may be no more, a comparison for the Scottish is still very relevant, there are many similarities between them.

Both played out of Murrayfield, in leagues that were cross European leagues, one however played the second most popular Sport in Scotland the other a Minority sport. One played in one of the top Leagues in the world, the other placed in a second tier league. yet for all the advantages Rugby has, its the one with lower average crowds.
With two teams, each in a big city they are drawing in crowds similar to sparsely populated Connacht.
Something doesn't add up?

This is not a go at the Scottish teams, or fans, as I really like them both (Glasgow more so), just think that they should be able to generate bigger crowds than they do. I think every Glasgow and Edinburgh fans would love to see bigger crowds as well.

Of course 606 is never going to fix things, and bigger crowds would only help the Scottish teams more, and Glasgow don't need anymore help, stopping them from winning the league is going to be hard enough.