Referee Retirement

by GloriousEmpire Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:35 am

Following a fairly ordinary performance in the RWC, NZ referee Bryce Lawrence had the dignity to step down as an international referee amongst stinging criticism of his performance.

Will other referees who have made game changing gaffes have the same dignity?

by nth Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:30 pm

I doubt Walsh will retire his whistle until his hand is forced unfortunately, he loves himself and the limelight too much.

by The Saint Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:03 pm

The Kiwi who officiated in the opening Lions test should step down, well out of his depth. I would put forward Rolland's name as he is having an awful year in the hot seat, but he's already signaled his intent to retire at the end of this season Smile

.

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:29 pm

Walsh is consistently poor.

I can't recall too many stinking performances from refs at Int level for a while to be fair.

by aucklandlaurie Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:51 pm

I wouldnt be too quick to point the finger at the refs.

After the disaster that Poite made (Bismark dP) in the Springbok All black game, its obvious that referees are being appointed too fixtures well beyond their ability, the IRB just shouldnt be putting them in that position.

When teams ranked 1, 2, 3, and 4 in the World are playing each other then a referee of similar ranking should be appointed to officiate.... Linesmen and TMOs should also be similarly ranked.

by fa0019 Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:52 pm

First time I've heard someone say his performance was fairly ordinary.... Borderline criminal is what springs to mind. Out of his depth and he jumped before he was pushed.

by Exiledinborders Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:14 pm

Chris Pollock should go and referee in league as he does not believe in a contest at the breakdown.

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:16 pm

George Clancy should go with immediate effect under these rules !

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:20 pm

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:George Clancy should go with immediate effect under these rules !

Why's that?

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:23 pm

Because he is a complete and utter bell end of a referee

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:27 pm

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Because he is a complete and utter bell end of a referee

And why's that? I also thought he was decent.

by TJ Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:29 pm

So who do you replace them with? These guys are the top refs - replacements would be less experienced and the whinge ratio increases when inexperienced refs are used..

rugby is a complex game with zillions of offences possible all over the field. IMO the only answer is to have 5 officials not 3. then an official could view any incident from every angle and less would be missed.

by GloriousEmpire Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:03 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Because he is a complete and utter bell end of a referee
And why's that? I also thought he was decent.

You would.

by GloriousEmpire Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:07 pm

TJ wrote:So who do you replace them with? These guys are the top refs - replacements would be less experienced and the whinge ratio increases when inexperienced refs are used..

rugby is a complex game with zillions of offences possible all over the field. IMO the only answer is to have 5 officials not 3. then an official could view any incident from every angle and less would be missed.

If the display we saw yesterday was the display of a top experienced ref then we are in serious trouble.

And the point is, we are.

The constant and overwhelming failure of referees to do their job to any satisfactory level is destroying the credibility of the game.

The contest is now often team versus referee rather than team versus team.

If getting rid of 90% of our "top" referees and replacing them
With the next generation is what we have to do, then we must. For the sake of the game . And so we might avoid the kind of abject travesty we witnessed yesterday.

by nathan Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:07 pm

GE still whining on, i can see you've settled into the whinging poms attitude nicely whilst over here.

by TJ Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:09 pm

Guys - don't feed the troll.

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:15 pm

Why's that GE?

by SecretFly Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:20 pm

I think it is actually a good precedent to give in to majority public opinion and step down manfully, and with dignity, if you find yourself a divisive figure, a figure who drives too much confrontation ahead of you, a figure that upsets fans from other nations, a figure who likes the sound of his whistle too much, a figure who often receives stinging criticism of his performance.....

So..................... any takers??? Wink

by GloriousEmpire Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:20 pm

Because having games turned dramatically by abhorrent and obvious refereeing errors is getting worse rather than better.

It's not fair on any one.

by LordDowlais Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:20 pm

To put a slight slant on this discussion, I would like to point out referees who have improved in my opinion over the last few years, one that springs to mind is Nigel Pearson, when he first came on the scene, god did he used to make my blood boil, but as of late, when I have seen him in the Rabo he seems to have improved by a country mile, now if only all the biased Irish refs could do the same. Run

by SecretFly Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:24 pm

Anti-Welsh Irish refs ...don't be coy with the euphemistic lingo now. Wink

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:25 pm

Human error has always been part of the game, video technology helps us out but doesn't remove the possibility of error.

Take the BdP sending off for example, a fine tackle given a yellow card even after review.

These things happen, NZ were lucky that day and I'm sure they'll be on the receiving end one day too.

by LordDowlais Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:27 pm

SecretFly wrote:Anti-Welsh Irish refs ...don't be coy with the euphemistic lingo now.

Theres still time for them to improve though fly. Whistle

by GloriousEmpire Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:35 pm

Let's take the example of England. Here's an improving team who one day with the right motivation and selection could be a genuinely competitive side.

However when the gap in their deficiency is plugged by a raft of decisions that go their way, the tendency is to be blind to the inherent flaws in their game. So they miss the opportunities to improve those areas in the referee enhanced delusion (probably psychologically reasonable) that victory is achieved by merit. Hence these improvements are not realised and they remain slightly off the pace, collecting victories only in "special circumstances"

It just isn't fair on the team. Or the fans.

by SecretFly Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:53 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Anti-Welsh Irish refs ...don't be coy with the euphemistic lingo now.
Theres still time for them to improve though fly.

Nah..that's a genetic thing that better training won't help, Lord Wink

by No 7&1/2 Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:55 pm

So I take it most people have watched the game or the highlights anyone notice Wood being held illegally in the ruck at Aus' first try? I mean he had no chance of stopping it anyway but the rules are the rules afterall and it changed the game in Aus' favour.

by LordDowlais Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:57 pm

SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Anti-Welsh Irish refs ...don't be coy with the euphemistic lingo now.
Theres still time for them to improve though fly.
Nah..that's a genetic thing that better training won't help, Lord

Oh well, we just need more Welsh refs then, just to balance things out. Laugh

by TJ Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:57 pm

TJ wrote:Guys - don't feed the troll.

by GloriousEmpire Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:00 pm

Wow. Just wow. No I was blinded by the 17 hilarious consecutive knock ons in the lead up to England's first "try".

Browns foot half in touch which somehow wasn't even worthy of a quick check by the tmo.

And you know Dylan Hartley's NFL block to open the gap for Farrell.

Perhaps Yarde's late shoulder charge that he got away with.

And the constant handling of the ball in the ruck by England players.

by No 7&1/2 Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:02 pm

lol. If you're this upset about the Aus game God knows how upset you'll be if NZ lose this Autumn! ghost

by GloriousEmpire Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Here's a theory.

Referees like everyone else are sometimes motivated by aspirations of greatness. And sometimes, as in all jobs, can't be arsed and want an easy life.

Now if you're going to want things easy, then it's best to help out the home side, if you are unsure and need to err possibly one way or the other.

Second motivation for the easy life might be what happens later. Easiest to look after the most populous volume of fans.

As you can see, there isn't a lot of fuss when a ref errs in favour of the home team with the most populous fan base.

Easy life for referee. Job done.

by SecretFly Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:09 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:Here's a theory.

Referees like everyone else are sometimes motivated by aspirations of greatness. And sometimes, as in all jobs, can't be arsed and want an easy life.

Now if you're going to want things easy, then it's best to help out the home side, if you are unsure and need to err possibly one way or the other.

Second motivation for the easy life might be what happens later. Easiest to look after the most populous volume of fans.

As you can see, there isn't a lot of fuss when a ref errs in favour of the home team with the most populous fan base.

Easy life for referee. Job done.

Does that theory work two ways across two hemispheres, Glorious?

by TJ Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:15 pm

TJ wrote:
TJ wrote:Guys - don't feed the troll.

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:19 pm

I see your thinking GE.

England get lucky with a few calls and we think we're half decent.

NZ v SA, SA go to 14 men for majority of game after bizarre call and NZ think they're invincible.

by MrsP Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:20 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
I wouldnt be too quick to point the finger at the refs.

After the disaster that Poite made (Bismark dP) in the Springbok All black game, its obvious that referees are being appointed too fixtures well beyond their ability, the IRB just shouldnt be putting them in that position.

When teams ranked 1, 2, 3, and 4 in the World are playing each other then a referee of similar ranking should be appointed to officiate.... Linesmen and TMOs should also be similarly ranked.

This confuses me a bit.

I understand that some refs will never be ready for top flight rugby. I understand that internationals are played at a higher pace and so the ref has to be physically fit enough for that. I undersatnd that experience will help when dealing with crafty old experienced players.

But, the rules are the same no matter what level of match is being reffed.

If someone is able to ref the HEC he should be "able" enough for internationals so long as he is physically capable.

Each ref has their own style and you might not like that style but that doesn't necessarily mean they are not "able". Neither does getting the odd call wrong. All refs will get calls wrong. They can only call it as they see it.

by GloriousEmpire Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:20 pm

Pooly...I seem to recall NZ beat SA in the return fixture despite NZ being down to 14 so, not sure what your argument is about. Especially since you spent all day yesterday telling me that poor refereeing calls were just "swings and roundabouts". Still harbouring a grudge I see.

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:23 pm

They are swings are roundabouts, these things happen.

NZ in the argument are pretty irrelevant as neither of us follow them.

by Heaf Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:28 pm

"It's interesting how some posters believe it is valid to criticise a referee when the outcome doesn't suit them ..."

So it's one rule for you then GE and another for everyone else? Funny how the ref is always right when it suits your agenda but you soon abandon that position when it doesn't ...

by TJ Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:35 pm

Guysd - the more you argue with and engage with GE on nonsense threads like this the more he will post them. He is not interested in debate, nothing will change his mind. Its al about getting up peoples noses and in his mind scoring debating points. don't expect any logic from him. If you ignore him he will lose all ability to irritate him

by GloriousEmpire Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:54 pm

TJ stop hiding your head in the sand. It isn't me who changed the outcome of yesterday's game in a bizarre 10 minutes of error strewn refereeing, unable to spot a succession of knock ons, obstructions, shoulder charges or players with feet clearly in touch.

You can pretend there is no logic in what I'm saying all you want - but you know deep in your heart that I'm right.

Wouldn't it be nicer to be celebrating a victory that wasn't tainted with devaluation because England benefited so heavily from such awful blunders?

I know after the BdP gaffe most NZ fans were just as upset as their springbok rivals that a great game had been tarnished with such an awful blunder, and that's why we couldn't wait for the rematch! and what a great game it was when handled correct by the excellent Nigel Owens.

Wouldn't you rather have won fair and square and have no nagging detractions?

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:59 pm

NZ/we.......eh?

You're not a NZ'er or a fan.

by GloriousEmpire Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:01 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:NZ/we.......eh?

You're not a NZ'er or a fan.

So you're attacking me now because you can't fault the argument? Hmmm....

by Sgt_Pooly Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:08 am

That's hardly an attack, man up Wink

Whist you were winding up the English fans ALL day, the real NZ fans were discussing their game against Japan on another topic, one you haven't posted on funny thing.

It's easy to mock other nations when you pretend you support the best in the business.

by GloriousEmpire Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:12 am

Didn't see the NZ/Japan game due to my non internet and TV status so I can't comment.

I'm a fan of rugby, that's why I'm so aggrieved by yesterday's travesty of integrity.

by stub Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:15 am

SecretFly wrote:I think it is actually a good precedent to give in to majority public opinion and step down manfully, and with dignity, if you find yourself a divisive figure, a figure who drives too much confrontation ahead of you, a figure that upsets fans from other nations, a figure who likes the sound of his whistle too much, a figure who often receives stinging criticism of his performance.....

So..................... any takers???

Very good SF!

No takers though I see. Rolling Eyes

by Sgt_Pooly Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:17 am

That old chestnut eh.

"I'm a fan of rugby, that's why I'm so aggrieved by yesterday's travesty of integrity."

That's harsh, NZ lacked fluidity but they did ok. Midfield looks a problem though.

by GloriousEmpire Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:30 am

Yes the old kiwi bugbear of playing a FB at centre.

In my opinion keep Ben smith playing wing fullback where he has been playing well. Find an actual centre who's been playing centre and develop him. We won't find another Conrad smith for some time no matter if another talented footballer in his own right happens to have the same name. Let's find something different and evolve.

Still nice to see NZ depth deliver a victory without needing a referee to bend the rules for us.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:34 am

I think Hansen sees Ben Smith as looking quite similar to Conrad so he's trying to shoe horn him in at 13.

Smith has been a revolation this season though, always hoped he'd step up. He has to play FB or wing though, Hansen needs to calm his man crush on Cory Jane.

Piteua at 13?

by The Fourth Lion Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:39 am

GloriousEmpire wrote:Following a fairly ordinary performance in the RWC, NZ referee Bryce Lawrence had the dignity to step down as an international referee amongst stinging criticism of his performance.

Will other referees who have made game changing gaffes have the same dignity?

I sometimes wonder whatever happened to Steve Lander, the official who managed to get himself attacked by the, normally shy and retiring Neil Back, after giving Bath a penalty try against Leicester in the last minute of a Pilkington Cup Final once, and when playing as a touch judge at another Pilkers cup final a few years later, gave Newcastle a line out when it was their winger who had carried the ball into touch.... again, in the final moments of the match. This second gaffe allowed Newcastle to run in the last gasp try (Wilkinson duly despatched the conversion. Natch) which cruelly snatched the trophy away from Quins.

On both occasions, Mr Lander made absolute howlers which cost teams a trophy with last minute scores, In the first instance, he got himself assaulted by a player, and in the second, he made lifelong enemies of probably the most passive, easygoing, friendly supporters in the world.

He did come back to The Stoop once that I know of, some years later to referee a friendly between Quins and Natal Sharks. He wasn't booed or maltreated in any way, but was met with a level of frosty indifference by all that could only have left him in no doubt that forgiveness was not in the air.

Where is Mr Lander now..? Not on Neil Back's Christmas card list, I'll bet.

by GloriousEmpire Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:45 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think Hansen sees Ben Smith as looking quite similar to Conrad so he's trying to shoe horn him in at 13.

Smith has been a revolation this season though, always hoped he'd step up. He has to play FB or wing though, Hansen needs to calm his man crush on Cory Jane.

Piteua at 13?

Again another FB...

by Sponsored content