Wales vs South Africa match buildup.

First topic message reminder :

OK boys, this weekend Wales and South Africa will both attempt to begin their Autumn Internationals with a win.

Both teams for different reasons.

Wales will want to build on their Six Nations form of the last two years, they will want to confirm to themselves that the British and Irish Lions tour was won because of their players, and they will want to progress from being Northern Hemisphere kings, to a team that has the ability to beat South Africa, New Zealand and Australia.

In my view, and possibly in the view of their supporters the time is now, it has been a while since Wales has been so dominant in Europe, the only thing missing before they can call themselves world beaters is to take the next step.

How much of it is mental, how much of it is due to the fact that they struggle to put 80 minute performances together I cannot be certain of, but what I do know is they have the ability, sadly it seems Cuthbert and Roberts will not be part of what I deem as the most talented and dangerous backline in Europe. For two reasons I might add, it is the most settled back line in Europe, and also very experienced.

Since the World Cup in 2011, Wales have won 9 of their 10 Six Nations matches, undoubtedly a very good record, however their problem was the seven match losing streak in between the two Six Nations.

South Africa on the other hand, has a new coach, been there for near two full seasons and he has made a difference.

Still not yet consistent, the concern is always how will Meyer ensure that the springboks perform on a consistent basis. In the past 18 months under Heyneke Meyer the boks had their fair share of poor games.

Last year out of the twelve test matches played the springboks managed to win 7 tests, drew 2 and lost three.

Although the three tests they lost were against New Zealand (twice) and Australia, there were a number of other performances that were not up to par. England in the third test at home, Argentina in Mendoza and New Zealand at home, those were poor performances by South Africa.

Although they went through the Autumn internationals unbeaten the were less than convincing.

I suppose the positive out of the performances were even when they played poorly, they managed to be on the right side of the scoreboard most of the time.

Although South Africa has shown improvement this year, the consistency is still under question.

The one aspect of their game that has improved immeasurably is their positive approach to attacking play, looking at the number of tries scored this year in comparison to last year it makes for astounding reading, in 2012 during 12 matches South Africa managed only 23 tries, conceding 16. This year in 9 tests they have managed 39 tries, conceding 18 tries.

Only New Zealand have managed to score regular tries against SA, totalling 15 tries in the last two years, the rest of their opponents only managed 19 tries in 17 matches.

Wales during 2012 managed to score 20 tries in conceding 17 in their 13 matches. During 2013 in their seven tests to date, they managed 11 tries, conceding 7.

If South Africa continues with their positive approach  to attacking plays I believe Wales will be hard pressed, their defence will have to be up to par, there is no doubt Wales will have a positive approach to the game, so from that perspective it should be an entertaining match.

There are some questions over the selections Meyer will make, will he bring Jaque Fourie, JP Pietersen and Bakkies Botha in for the first tour match, which would add significantly to the experience of the team, or will he give debutant Pieter Steph du Toit his first cap?

Of course Willie le Roux and JJ Engelbrecht may yet be inexperienced, but in my view it would be unfair to summarily dismiss them in favour of the old hands.

Wales have a few selection issues as well, who will replace Cuthbert and Roberts, and the ultimate question, will Phillips’ disciplinary record affect his chances for selection?

I still wonder who is the best fly half in Wales.

Come what may, this match should be a tough encounter, will SA prove they have made the step up and show consistency, or will Wales make the next leap towards world domination?

Springbok team for Wales.

The Springbok team to face Wales in Cardiff is:

15. Pat Lambie 29 caps 55 points
14. JP Pietersen 48 caps 70 points
13. Jaque Fourie 69 caps 160 points
12. Jean de Villiers (captain) 93 caps 120 points
11. Bryan Habana 92 caps 265 points
10. Morné Steyn 51 caps 618 points
9. Fourie du Preez 65 caps 70 points
8. Duane Vermeulen 13 caps 5 points
7. Willem Alberts 27 caps 30 points
6. Francois Louw 25 caps 25 points
5. Flip van der Merwe 31 caps 5 points
4. Eben Etzebeth 20 caps 0 points
3. Frans Malberhe 0 caps 0 points
2. Bismarck du Plessis (v-captain) 54 caps 40 points
1. Tendai Mtawarira 50 caps 10 points
Replacements:
16. Adriaan Strauss 30 caps 25 points
17. Gurthrö Steenkamp 46 caps 30 points
18. Coenie Oosthuizen 11 caps 5 points
19. Pieter-Steph du Toit 0 caps 0 points
20. Siya Kolisi 8 caps 0 points
21. Ruan Pienaar 71 caps 130 points
22. JJ Engelbrecht 10 caps 20 points
23. Willie le Roux 9 caps 15 points

Wales team for South Africa
Wales

15 Leigh Halfpenny,
14 George North,
13 Jonathan Davies,
12 Scott Williams,
11 Eli Walker,
10 Rhys Priestland,
9 Mike Phillips,
8 Toby Faletau,
7 Sam Warburton (captain),
6 Dan Lydiate,
5 Alun Wyn Jones,
4 Bradley Davies,
3 Adam Jones,
2 Richard Hibbard,
1 Gethin Jenkins

Substitutes: 16 Ken Owens, 17 Paul James, 18 Scott Andrews, 19 Luke Charteris, 20 Justin Tipuric, 21 Lloyd Williams, 22 James Hook, 23 Liam Williams

No it was RP who ran it from behind his line I think.

No ten will ever look good playing outside Phillips.  Even Dan Carter would struggle to set he backs going with the slow ball delivered badly.

TJ wrote:No ten will ever look good playing outside Phillips.  Even Dan Carter would struggle to set he backs going with the slow ball delivered badly.

Your nor a fan of Mike then im guessing haha

bedfordwelsh wrote:No it was RP who ran it from behind his line I think.

Yes it was another screw up by Priestland carrying the ball back over the line when it was going over. Priestland is too slow of thought for a decent 10 as demonstrated for the third try. Pr
iestland had a shocking game, Gatland must pick Dan Biggar if we kicking the ball, the Phillips service was good appart from the first pass.

I felt the back row were blown away in the contact and in the mauls but warburton won a lot of turnovers but wales lost even more.

the backs see the ball from rp? not a lot yesterday.

Was flicking back and forth between this and the Ireland game. Looked like a good game between two very good sides.

The big question is though... how the flip do the boks manage to lift Alberts in the lineout?

He's full of helium...the oldest drug trick in the SA book.

SecretFly wrote:He's full of helium...the oldest drug trick in the SA book.

Maybe it's helium, maybe it's nitrous. Either way it's no laughing matter.

 

Yes how didn't Alberts get MOM, he was absolutely amazing. Like a brick wall

yes glamorganalun, you and i and one or two or three have dared to say the OBVIOUS, biggar is the man to play the game the welsh management want to play. he may not be the choice of the number 10 romantics , but the game plan needs accuracy, and that is his strength. i'm quite weary saying it !!!!!!!

After a couple of days to reflect I've decided to be positive about this. Wales were pretty even with the number 2 team in the world and despite losing 3 front line players early doors were still in a position to win. A try that should have been disallowed and it would only have been a two point difference. Not bad for a side that haven't played together for a few months against an organised side of massively classy players.

McKay, good to be positive, but firstly the goal kicking kept Wales in the hunt, plus the dubious penalty Halfpenny pleaded for when lying all over Habana.

If you want to be correct then you should suggest the scoreline would have been 5 points.

Wales got their penalties in kicking range where we did not.

The scrums were a farce and Rolland was guessing the breakdowns were a lottery at best.

Even if you take the offside try out of the equation then the scoreline is still no tries to Wales.

True but the points system is what it is. I don't like no tries but you still have to kick the penalties when they come. I believe the tries will come but that midfield partnership is not right for me. I'm not sure who Wales have that can break up play at the moment but the only person I can think of is tipuric. He'd make a great Centre. I'm not suggesting we should switch him but he had the skills we need in that position. Reckon it'll be hook against Argentina.

You may not like hearing me say this.

And I mentioned this before, Wales have this ability to look busy and industrious, they manage very well to retain possession phase after phase, they create the illusion (for a want of a better word) that they are breaking down the defence, but they just don't

I went onto a stats for in Australia yesterday to compare some of the stats as I thought wales dominated the stats. Saw some interesting results.

According to this website ( Rugbystats ):

Territory Wales 60% South Africa 40%
Possession Wales 45% South Africa 55% (That surprised me)
Wales 172 phases South Africa 180 phases (again a surprise)

Here is the big one, 5 or more phases:
Wales 10 South Africa 6

Linebreaks and offloads:
Wales 13 South Africa 9

Handling errors:
SA had 6 inputs in the scrum
Wales only 2

We won 4 line outs against the throw, Wales only 1

We missed 17 tackles vs Wales 8, but our scramble defence worked well, Wales had issues.

Wales was turned over 20 times, South Africa only 13 times.

So looking at interpreting many of that stats, Wales lost 4 line outs, had a tight head against their feed once, had longer phases but couldn't break down the SA defence and were often isolated in the tackle and turned over, their handling errors were greater than SA's which either suggests that the pressure of the defence got to them, or their execution is not there.

Is it within the Laws to use a forearm when "handing-off" these days?It used to be illegal when I used to play.Would the Citing Officer pick this sort of thing?Liam Williams' injury might be worth a peak methinks.

Wales are the most frustrating side to support . soon as jd2 was injured we never looked like scoring a try . i dont know what our game plan was but south Africa was trying to injure as many Welsh players as possible

jimmyinthewell68 wrote: i dont know what our game plan was but south Africa was trying to injure as many Welsh players as possible

Hmmm, can you elaborate?

Yeah I don't think that's at all true about SA trying to injure our players and those sort of comments don't really help intelligent debate.  

Biltong I would totally agree that we have trouble breaking down the final defence.   Wales made plenty of line breaks but weren't able to finish them off.  I think it had been a problem for years and having Shane Williams just papered over the cracks.   The forwards perform well but without some backs that can do something a bit different we will always suffer.

3 Welsh players taken off plus hibs having a forearm smashed into throat . ok players get injured but that was brutal:shock: 

Taffineastbourne wrote:Is it within the Laws to use a forearm when "handing-off" these days?It used to be illegal when I used to play.Would the Citing Officer pick this sort of thing?Liam Williams' injury might be worth a peak methinks.

There is now a thread on this - but no it is not legal to fend off a player with the free fore-arm. Players have been cited for this already this season.


As to the game - well SA were the better team by a country mile. The number of injuries picked up makes the rest o fthe campaign look trickier. Also Priestland continues to look like a good club player who merely had a purple patch back in 2011. Surely Biggar should be starting.

McKay, I honestly think your problem is Phillips, his service is not quick, Priestland in my view isn't a bad player, I see many have criticised him for his performance in this game, but Morne Steyn isn't an attacking player either.

For me quick service to the midfield will go a long way in resolving these issues for Wales

The other problem I saw was players getting isolated too often, that goes directly to support play. I think it didn't help to play against ALberts, Etzebeth, Bismarck, Louw and Vermeulen, they all are very hard in defence and all capable o turning ball over, and they play well collectively.

A bit a grunt in the backrow and more collective play will help as well.

I don't think wales have any worries in the backline, the players are all very talented and for me Davies and Roberts (not available) is a very good centre combination.

One big bloke in the back row, and another scrum half who focuses primarily on quick ball would be my suggestion for wales.

The reason why I believe that is vital is simple, SA, NZ and OZ play quicker from the ruck, they are quicker in defence and stand off rucks more times than not, getting their defence organised.

Wales needs to go for quicker ball, and a hard man to break the middle of the field open before going wide against SA, NZ and OZ.

That old saying of earning the right to go wide is particularly important against us.

Unless your forwards break the gain line, you aren't going to put our backline under enough pressure.

Biltong

Totally agree about Phillips. I liked him w few years ago when he could make breaks and keep things moving but he's too slow now. I wouldn't even mind seeing Ritchie Rees back in. At least he's got some go forward. Time for something different Warren. When you see Scotland planning like they did on Saturday it makes you realise that maybe Scott Johnson was better than we thought. Child do with some of that now. Move the ball from the point of contact quickly and back your players up. Simple stuff but very effective.

wrfc1980 wrote:Wales had the majority of possession but didn't have a clue what to do with it. Contray to belief Wales do NOT play attractive rugby. For years they have relied on the kick chase to win games. They kick an inordiate amount of ball away. Gat ball just does not work against the southern hemosphere. Add to that a weak 9 and 10 axis and I honestly think that Wales will struggle against the argies next week. This Wales team is over rated and the rankings do not lie. In the last 10 games Wales have LOST 6 and won 4. That my friend is not a sign of a strong team.

Agreed. Victories, as in the last two Six Nations, mask how limited our game is. Against the best sides, physicality alone won't win you games. You need to play some football, and we just don't. We have locks standing in midfield and the thought of looking wide doesn't even cross their minds - they're going to take it into contact, and the opposition know it. Did anyone else watch Scrum V where Jiffy showed numerous examples of overlaps being sqandered because of our obsession with taking the contact?

We keep hearing about 'earning the right' to go wide. It's b0llocks, absolute b0llocks. Attack where there's space!

Wales was given a lesson again to be fair. Philips was slow but the boks defence was awesome and if we was still playing now we wouldn't be able to score a try .

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
We keep hearing about 'earning the right' to go wide. It's b0llocks, absolute b0llocks. Attack where there's space!

The only manner in which you create space is to pull defenders in, and the way you do that is by gaining front foot ball and momentum with your forwards, hit the middle hard and get the defence on the back foot.

If you can't then going wide with defences organised you help much.

There was one occasion on the weekend in the second half where Wales decided to take contact when they had an overlap and only forwards to run at.

That was a big mistake, can't remember more than that though.

I believe our forward pack is not only brutal in defence but works very well as a unit.

when you look at Bismarck, Eben, Flip (Pieter Steph du Toit is even better), Willem, Louw, and Vermeulen, it is a daunting group of players to play against.

In my view Willem Alberts should have been man of the match, he won every collision, be it with ball in hand or in defence. He was simply superb in this game.

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:3 Welsh players taken off plus hibs having a forearm smashed into throat . ok players get injured but that was brutal:shock: 

Rugby is a contact sport ! And So is dancing to qoute the great Pieter De Villiers . Is it our fault the Welsh players put themselves in compromising positions and got injured? Liam Williams came into the tackle with his head on the wrong side against a bruiser like Bismarck coming at him at pace. What did you think was going to happen?

Adam Jones had a calf injury - Can someone explain how that was caused by a Springbok

And finally JD2 hurt his pectoral muscle once again how does a Springbok manage to do that ??

Stop clutching at straws everytime  

There were three or four examples. Biltong. It's so frustrating. It's as if we think we have to take the ball up a set number of times before even looking to go wide, even if the space / overlap has been created by the first foward taking the ball up.

Have only seen the game from the stadium, but SA were clearly the better team. I didn't think they were particularly rough (the yellow card incident excepted), just very physical. A host of poor mistakes from Wales, they didn't seem to know what they wanted to do with the ball in the first half, and were horribly prone to leaving the ball-carrier isolated. Lousy kicking game, up and unders all too far (although SA did better at that partly by getting away with the chasers being well offside). The plus for me was that, despite all that, after an hour there were only 2 points in it and SA were genuinely up against it at that stage. But it would have been a bit odd if Wales had won that game.

Hibbard, Geth and Paul James all looked good.

We are in trouble with the injuries, now. What on earth are we going to do in the centre? Beck doesn't look in much form. Hook has played some of his best rugby for Wales at 13, so maybe that's the best we can do for now.

Put Biggar at centre next to North on his outside.  

Havent posted since the game yet so here goes.....

Without Roberts and Cuthbert we still saw we could look dangerous, we were targetting Fourie very well, Jd2 especially but Halfpenny was starting to run the line outside the 13 that Byrne used and we've been crying out for. All of a sudden there was 2 genuine threats in that channel and Fourie was getting caught in no mans land. We actually saw some thought in the way the backline was playing and some progression in planning and specification in where we were to attack.

When Jd2 went off so did our line-breaking ability imo. Liam williams shortly followed him and all of a sudden our only threats were on the wings (halfpenny & North) and easy for SA to marshall. Hook at fullback was busy but not threatening, Beck was off the pace for this test and this combo really took Sc Williams out of the game.

Phillips had a poor game again, I think he's passed his sell by date now - if we didnt already know that after the Lions.

I'd like to see Rhodri Williams start with Biggar in the 10 slot next game. Priestland wasnt terrible, but he just made some simple mistakes that 10's should not be making at this level and handed the momentum back to SA, Biggar doesnt make those mistakes - I'm a fan of both players but Biggar is a better precentage player (without 3 of our 4 consistent threats Cuthbert/Roberts/Jd2 - we're clearly going to revert to type and play the kicking game).

Right, the forwards - flooded the breakdowns regularly as expected, it looked like SA just stood off until they felt the time was right and Wales were short of numbers following the carrier. They did it all game, I was screaming for Wales to sharpen up.

Gill & James should have ben the props on the bench to come on, they would have not been phased by the ferocity (James was excellent when coming on imo) and Gill has that edge you get in old school props.

AW Jones was industrious but outmuscled, Bradley Davies was pretty good but I'd have liked to see Charteris in earlier for AW.

Faletau was quiet overall but our only forward to consistently get over the gainline (even if only slgihtly) and give us front foot ball.

Lydiate and Warbs were good defensively but both pretty poor carrying and supporting.

Overall, it wasn't terrible. When you look at the makeshift team put out in that second half, to come back to 2 points, I genuinely thought we had turned a corner in mindset, it wasnt pretty but it was sher bloodymindedness that got that back into that game. One lapse and SA score to pull clear and they never looked like losing from that moment.

Ref was ok overall for both sides - I actually didnt mind the yellow cards for props, that period favoured SA though, Jenkins was class for Wales up until that point.

So in summary, Wales did as expected in the cicumstances, disappointed to lose but looking at the teamsheets at the end of the game, its not surprising. Welsh forwards looked good defensively for the majority but lacked the power some of the SA carriers mustered, indecision by Wales at certain times was capitalised on by SA, 3-0 tries tells its own story. As Bill said, we looked industrious but not particularly sharp in the second half - again not a surprise looking at that makeshift backline.

I didnt really learn anything from this game to be honest, we still haven't adapted our game well enough to play to our oppositions weakness, injuries then took away our ability to effectively play the game we wanted. Well done SA, deserved winners.

Comfort wrote:Biggar is a better precentage player

I'm a big fan of Priestland, but I can't argue with that. Apart from the spelling.

When will Wales learn Priestland 2013 = Charlie Hodgson 2004. Don't waste 10 years hoping he will develop... what he lacks is not something you can build. Talent is not the issue.

LP I told you, I gave up on speeling!  

Sory!

Tats ok!  

What changes would you guys look at for Argentina with the injuries in mind? Backline selection's going to be interesting to say the least!

Will Liam Williams be back does anyone know?

As Apple would say, there's a thread for that.

Wales were weak at the restarts putting no pressure on the Boks. It was an area that SA struggled in the RC so I do not understand why wales didn't challenge more and drop them shorter. Lack of variety and poor prematch prep from the coaches in my opinion.

I also think Wales should learn to tone down the talk before a big game. It motivates the opposition and places extra expectation and pressure to perform on them. They looked frantic at times on Saturday especially when SA were down to 14 men and when cool heads were needed. I do nopt mean this as a WUM but really think it'll be to Wales' benefit.

The Scots have managed to get a couple of wins over the Boks in the last few years and a big factor in it is SA underestimating them and not being as switched on or hungry to prove a point. SA got caught completely cold and Scotland were deserved winners.

Reading both JSmits and Matfield's autobiographys, they both have a go and chuckle at wales because of their tendency to over talk / rate themselves and feel like undeserving losers. It's easy to focus the Boks when faced with such talk.

Wales could spend less time writing articles for the press, opinion pieces and giving interviews and rather study videos to learn how NZ stopped the Boks rolling maul.

We do set ourselves up for a fall sometimes. But then some of it is down to the spin, and I cringe at some of the headlines in the Western Mail on match day and worry that visiting fans will take the 'national newspaper of Wales' claim on the front page seriously.

True dat

Excellent point about the Western Mail/Welsh media in general. Thousands dying in storms and conflicts around the world and our national newspaper has front pages of Mike Phillips losing his job/Sam Warburton dressing up as a goat or something/Leigh Halfpenny sexiest man in Wales.

Touring sides must think we're backward over here. They don't need a teamtalk to get motivated - just pin up the articles suggesting we think we're great.

It's not our national newspaper!

 

Pinups. Sounds like a good idea that.

I can just imagine.

Changerooms for the Boks before the Welsh test.

JDV to his team - "who's going to tackle the pretty boy?"

"Me, Me, Me."

Willem Alberts "You all can have pretty boy, I am gonna get me some goat"

Fourie du Preez "I want to take Phillips out"
JDV "why?"
Fourie du Preez "I don't want him to come to Santori."

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It's not our national newspaper!

It says so on the front!

Casartelli wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It's not our national newspaper!

It says so on the front!

Someone should sue them over that. I could wear a t-shirt saying 'world's greatest lover' but it wouldn't be true.

Is there another Welsh newspaper that covers Wales? I think it's the national newspaper by default, unfortunately. Other papers are more regional (Echo, Argus, etc.). Probably more regional than our regions!!!

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It's not our national newspaper!

It says so on the front!

Someone should sue them over that. I could wear a t-shirt saying 'world's greatest lover' but it wouldn't be true.

On a good day, I can compete with the best in the world.

If I get an injury or two, I'm very mediocre.

VietGwentRevisited wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Is it within the Laws to use a forearm when "handing-off" these days?It used to be illegal when I used to play.Would the Citing Officer pick this sort of thing?Liam Williams' injury might be worth a peak methinks.

There is now a thread on this - but no it is not legal to fend off a player with the free fore-arm. Players have been cited for this already this season.


As to the game - well SA were the better team by a country mile. The number of injuries picked up makes the rest o fthe campaign look trickier. Also Priestland continues to look like a good club player who merely had a purple patch back in 2011. Surely Biggar should be starting.

The most accurate summary of Priestland I have read on here and I agree 110%. The bloke just does not have it mentally. Get Biggar in there for the love of all that's sacred.