Wales vs South Africa match buildup.

First topic message reminder :

OK boys, this weekend Wales and South Africa will both attempt to begin their Autumn Internationals with a win.

Both teams for different reasons.

Wales will want to build on their Six Nations form of the last two years, they will want to confirm to themselves that the British and Irish Lions tour was won because of their players, and they will want to progress from being Northern Hemisphere kings, to a team that has the ability to beat South Africa, New Zealand and Australia.

In my view, and possibly in the view of their supporters the time is now, it has been a while since Wales has been so dominant in Europe, the only thing missing before they can call themselves world beaters is to take the next step.

How much of it is mental, how much of it is due to the fact that they struggle to put 80 minute performances together I cannot be certain of, but what I do know is they have the ability, sadly it seems Cuthbert and Roberts will not be part of what I deem as the most talented and dangerous backline in Europe. For two reasons I might add, it is the most settled back line in Europe, and also very experienced.

Since the World Cup in 2011, Wales have won 9 of their 10 Six Nations matches, undoubtedly a very good record, however their problem was the seven match losing streak in between the two Six Nations.

South Africa on the other hand, has a new coach, been there for near two full seasons and he has made a difference.

Still not yet consistent, the concern is always how will Meyer ensure that the springboks perform on a consistent basis. In the past 18 months under Heyneke Meyer the boks had their fair share of poor games.

Last year out of the twelve test matches played the springboks managed to win 7 tests, drew 2 and lost three.

Although the three tests they lost were against New Zealand (twice) and Australia, there were a number of other performances that were not up to par. England in the third test at home, Argentina in Mendoza and New Zealand at home, those were poor performances by South Africa.

Although they went through the Autumn internationals unbeaten the were less than convincing.

I suppose the positive out of the performances were even when they played poorly, they managed to be on the right side of the scoreboard most of the time.

Although South Africa has shown improvement this year, the consistency is still under question.

The one aspect of their game that has improved immeasurably is their positive approach to attacking play, looking at the number of tries scored this year in comparison to last year it makes for astounding reading, in 2012 during 12 matches South Africa managed only 23 tries, conceding 16. This year in 9 tests they have managed 39 tries, conceding 18 tries.

Only New Zealand have managed to score regular tries against SA, totalling 15 tries in the last two years, the rest of their opponents only managed 19 tries in 17 matches.

Wales during 2012 managed to score 20 tries in conceding 17 in their 13 matches. During 2013 in their seven tests to date, they managed 11 tries, conceding 7.

If South Africa continues with their positive approach  to attacking plays I believe Wales will be hard pressed, their defence will have to be up to par, there is no doubt Wales will have a positive approach to the game, so from that perspective it should be an entertaining match.

There are some questions over the selections Meyer will make, will he bring Jaque Fourie, JP Pietersen and Bakkies Botha in for the first tour match, which would add significantly to the experience of the team, or will he give debutant Pieter Steph du Toit his first cap?

Of course Willie le Roux and JJ Engelbrecht may yet be inexperienced, but in my view it would be unfair to summarily dismiss them in favour of the old hands.

Wales have a few selection issues as well, who will replace Cuthbert and Roberts, and the ultimate question, will Phillips’ disciplinary record affect his chances for selection?

I still wonder who is the best fly half in Wales.

Come what may, this match should be a tough encounter, will SA prove they have made the step up and show consistency, or will Wales make the next leap towards world domination?

Springbok team for Wales.

The Springbok team to face Wales in Cardiff is:

15. Pat Lambie 29 caps 55 points
14. JP Pietersen 48 caps 70 points
13. Jaque Fourie 69 caps 160 points
12. Jean de Villiers (captain) 93 caps 120 points
11. Bryan Habana 92 caps 265 points
10. Morné Steyn 51 caps 618 points
9. Fourie du Preez 65 caps 70 points
8. Duane Vermeulen 13 caps 5 points
7. Willem Alberts 27 caps 30 points
6. Francois Louw 25 caps 25 points
5. Flip van der Merwe 31 caps 5 points
4. Eben Etzebeth 20 caps 0 points
3. Frans Malberhe 0 caps 0 points
2. Bismarck du Plessis (v-captain) 54 caps 40 points
1. Tendai Mtawarira 50 caps 10 points
Replacements:
16. Adriaan Strauss 30 caps 25 points
17. Gurthrö Steenkamp 46 caps 30 points
18. Coenie Oosthuizen 11 caps 5 points
19. Pieter-Steph du Toit 0 caps 0 points
20. Siya Kolisi 8 caps 0 points
21. Ruan Pienaar 71 caps 130 points
22. JJ Engelbrecht 10 caps 20 points
23. Willie le Roux 9 caps 15 points

Wales team for South Africa
Wales

15 Leigh Halfpenny,
14 George North,
13 Jonathan Davies,
12 Scott Williams,
11 Eli Walker,
10 Rhys Priestland,
9 Mike Phillips,
8 Toby Faletau,
7 Sam Warburton (captain),
6 Dan Lydiate,
5 Alun Wyn Jones,
4 Bradley Davies,
3 Adam Jones,
2 Richard Hibbard,
1 Gethin Jenkins

Substitutes: 16 Ken Owens, 17 Paul James, 18 Scott Andrews, 19 Luke Charteris, 20 Justin Tipuric, 21 Lloyd Williams, 22 James Hook, 23 Liam Williams

Bullsbok wrote:

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:3 Welsh players taken off plus hibs having a forearm smashed into throat . ok players get injured but that was brutal:shock: 

Rugby is a contact sport ! And So is dancing to qoute the great Pieter De Villiers . Is it our fault the Welsh players put themselves in compromising positions and got injured? Liam Williams came into the tackle with his head on the wrong side against a bruiser like Bismarck coming at him at pace. What did you think was going to happen?

Adam Jones had a calf injury - Can someone explain how that was caused by a Springbok

And finally JD2 hurt his pectoral muscle once again how does a Springbok manage to do that ??  

Stop clutching at straws everytime  

  yes i know . just frustrated and it showed the lack of depth we got after a few injuries . bad tackle by liam ouch

Bullsbok wrote:Adam Jones had a calf injury - Can someone explain how that was caused by a Springbok

The Beast thought it was a veal chop and took a bite out of it.

tatterd wrote:

VietGwentRevisited wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Is it within the Laws to use a forearm when "handing-off" these days?It used to be illegal when I used to play.Would the Citing Officer pick this sort of thing?Liam Williams' injury might be worth a peak methinks.

There is now a thread on this - but no it is not legal to fend off a player with the free fore-arm. Players have been cited for this already this season.


As to the game - well SA were the better team by a country mile. The number of injuries picked up makes the rest o fthe campaign look trickier. Also Priestland continues to look like a good club player who merely had a purple patch back in 2011. Surely Biggar should be starting.

The most accurate summary of Priestland I have read on here and I agree 110%. The bloke just does not have it mentally. Get Biggar in there for the love of all that's sacred.

Form is temporary etc....

We may have to accept the fact that the mini golden age is coming to an end. Couple of Grand Slams, a 6N championship, almost making a RWC final etc. We have no strength in depth and can only play one way. Some dreaded 'rebuilding' is long overdue to just keep us where we are, let alone take it to the next level of mixing it with the SH teams regularly.

We desperately need to test some new props, scrum halves, 10s, centres and back 3. Given the way Gatland treats Byrne and Hook, Scott Williams is the only proven player that slots 'seamlessly' into the backline if one of the first choicers is injured.

Do Wales need a new direction?

That was Gatlands 21st defeat in 22 games against the BIG SH three.

Time to go?

Scrumpy, Gatland needs help to add some direction to the backline, admittedly though its hard when you start without 2 of your best strike runners and another goes off within 25 minutes. Not to mention a 9 who is now clearly passed his best and has never exactly been known for speed and inventiveness....

Its the backlines tactics that needs tinkering for me but the players are there when 85/90% are fit.

The forwards need 1 or 2 more real bruisers in there to create go-forward. We can do it against anyone up until the top 2/3.

Otherwise, we're a lot better off than where we were when Gatland took the helm.

I think your two starting props are past their best too.

I dont think Adam Jones is. He's probably knackered after a very busy year - 6 nations win, Lions tour and now playing the 2nd best team in the world by some distance.

Gethin isnt himself but I'm sure he has another spell of good form in him

But can they make 2015 and if they can will they still be worldclass Props?

It's just my opinion but Paul James deserves to start for Wales now.

Bath will miss him  

Gethin was on-fire saturday, Jones went off at 30 minutes.

You may have to explain why they're past it? I just didnt see it....

How was Gethin on fire, he couldn't scrumage, and his lost a yard or two of pace. No where near the player he was.

Adam looks tired and unfit, he has little else to prove as a player.

Scrumpy wrote:How was Gethin on fire, he couldn't scrumage, and his lost a yard or two of pace.  No where near the player he was.

Adam looks tired and unfit, he has little else to prove as a player.

Always enjoyable when 606v2 descends to the stage of vague non-specific critiques. Just to retort;

I thought Geth was awesome. Fast feet, fast hands and he's got that X-factor back. Took it to SA from the start.

Adam peerless as always. Had 'Beast' in all sorts of bother. If he hadn't gone off we'd probably have won, he's such a talisman.

If they are past their best, it's only because they have previously been in the rarefied air enjoyed by the select few.

Still two of the best props in the world. Anyone who knows anything about rugby knows this.

I thought Gethin had an excellent game, he may have lost a yard/half a yard of pace but he was everywhere putting in big tackles and carrying. The scrum was a mess all game, he also had to scrummage alongside the worst scrummaging TH in wales (andrews) and a Loosehead (Paul James) so its no surprise Wales were a bit toothless at the scrums, but even then SA didnt dominate.

Adam's not been as dominant or have as big a work ethic as usual this season and went off at 30 mins injured? You are right about father time though, he is against them both.

Can you explain what you saw from them? Just out of interest cause I didnt see them as past it.

 

'Time and tide wait for no man' 2015 is looking a long way off for these two guys imo.

I'll just wait for an analysis of their performances.......

Had Beast in all sorts of other?

Huh?

You'll be waiting a while for a in depth one.  

IMO they are not the players they were a year ago. Just watch them! (when they manage to stay on the pitch!)

Biltong wrote:Had Beast in all sorts of other?

Huh?

You'll never win a debate with a Welshman when they can't see what is in front of them Biltong.

I saw Wales lose to SH opposition again, they saw a plucky performance and was only robbed of a certain victory due to injuries!

 

 

Scrumpy wrote:How was Gethin on fire, he couldn't scrumage, and his lost a yard or two of pace.  No where near the player he was.

Adam looks tired and unfit, he has little else to prove as a player.

Comfort don't listen to him. he's talking rubbish

Gethin had one off the best games he has player in years Saturday. He only gave 2 penalty's away at scrum time, less then Malhebre and the beast. The scrums were a joke anyway and Malherbe was boring in quite a lot.

He lost a yard or two  
so did Bismark and Vermuelen but does that mean they played bad.

Biltong wrote:Had Beast in all sorts of other?

Huh?

From where I was sitting, he looked as much in bother as Adam looked past it, that's all I'm saying. A lot of the Saffers around me were thinking the same thing, I could tell.

It's all about the hit.

"The scrums were a joke anyway"

See what I mean  

There is not supposed to be a hit anymore.

Our scrum never backtracked.

We won the only tight head of the match.

The pitch broke up badly

The scrums were a nightmare

Nobody took advantage


Just don't see it, sorry.

Scrumpy wrote:"The scrums were a joke anyway"

See what I mean  

To be fair, it's a more in depth analysis than 'he's lost a yard of pace'. 'Yard of pace' makes no sense. Yard of pace over what distance????

When someone quotes 'yard of pace' in an online debate, that means they've lost. Like the thing about the nazis.

Bilt, agree, scrums were a bit of a lottery all round, even with the injuries to Adam Jones & Andrews, the scrums were still relatively even. Which is why I dont see how thats a reason both of our starting props are now over the hill.....

I'll just be here waiting for your analysis Scrumps my chum.....

Casartelli wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:"The scrums were a joke anyway"

See what I mean  

To be fair, it's a more in depth analysis than 'he's lost a yard of pace'.  'Yard of pace' makes no sense.  Yard of pace over what distance????

When someone quotes 'yard of pace' in an online debate, that means they've lost.  Like the thing about the nazis.

Haha, a think he meant he lost a yard or two when carrying which obviously means he played bad and is past it, even though nearly all our players and there own big ball carriers got smashed backwards at one point.

"Like the thing about the nazis"

What thing?

What are you on about?

Lost what?

IMO Adam and Gethin will struggle to make it to the 2015 RWC, as already I can see that their performances are begining to drop off .(it happens to the best of us) I fail to see why I have got to prove what I think?

Scrumpy, not saying you've got any point to prove or there's anything wrong with your opinion.

I just asked for examples of the previous game to back it up, as I saw it differently but agreed that time isn't on their side.

You're right time isn't on their side the injuries are mounting up, 10 years ago I'd say they will both make the RWC but the game has moved on and its more demanding on the body, I just can't see them maintain their performances that long, there is a hell of a lot of games between then and now.

Scrumpy wrote:"Like the thing about the nazis"

What thing?

What are you on about?

Lost what?

IMO Adam and Gethin will struggle to make it to the 2015 RWC, as already I can see that their performances are begining to drop off .(it happens to the best of us) I fail to see why I have got to prove what I think?

Look you clearly have your point and it does make sense, but the world cup is still 2 years away and event though Gethin was amazing yesterday and Adam has only just come of a Lions tour where he was crucial in. Then i don't see why your saying it.
Of course they could be over the hill in 2015 (they will both be 35) but they are playing good at the moment. Both are great players and will do their best to reach the 2015 world cup in form.

You do have tor prove thoguh why they are over the hill, you can't say it then give no reason to  why you think they are?

How was Gethin amazing?

He couldn't scrumage, OK the pitch wasn't helping but still!

He isn't the player he was, anyone can see that and that is why his time in Toulon was spent on the bench.

Scrumpy wrote:How was Gethin amazing?

He couldn't scrumage, OK the pitch wasn't helping but still!

He isn't the player he was, anyone can see that and that is why his time in Toulon was spent on the bench.

Maybe it was because Sheridan just had that extra yard of pace.

Even though speed isn't measured in yards.

He's a Paul James fan boy, dont even bother

Scrumpy wrote:How was Gethin amazing?

He couldn't scrumage, OK the pitch wasn't helping but still!

He isn't the player he was, anyone can see that and that is why his time in Toulon was spent on the bench.

Ok then whatever. All i will say is that scrums aren't everything Saturday, he wasn't amazing in the scrums but neither was any other prop on the pitch. The scrums were a mess and you seem to label all that on Gethin.
Good one  

Casartelli wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:How was Gethin amazing?

He couldn't scrumage, OK the pitch wasn't helping but still!

He isn't the player he was, anyone can see that and that is why his time in Toulon was spent on the bench.

Maybe it was because Sheridan just had that extra yard of pace.

Even though speed isn't measured in yards.

What are you on about, its a well known saying in sport.

Gethin has lost a yard or two, it happens when you get on, but imo his pace was a major part of his game without that he is just another big boy busting his gut to get around the park.

Scrumpy wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:How was Gethin amazing?

He couldn't scrumage, OK the pitch wasn't helping but still!

He isn't the player he was, anyone can see that and that is why his time in Toulon was spent on the bench.

Maybe it was because Sheridan just had that extra yard of pace.

Even though speed isn't measured in yards.

What are you on about, its a well known saying in sport.

Gethin has lost a yard or two, it happens when you get on, but imo his pace was a major part of his game without that he is just another big boy busting his gut to get around the park.

 

Scrumpy wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:How was Gethin amazing?

He couldn't scrumage, OK the pitch wasn't helping but still!

He isn't the player he was, anyone can see that and that is why his time in Toulon was spent on the bench.

Maybe it was because Sheridan just had that extra yard of pace.

Even though speed isn't measured in yards.

What are you on about, its a well known saying in sport..........

Quoted by people who don't know much about sport?

Even if he has lost a few inches of velocity, he's made up for it with lovely soft hands and a cultured left boot.

 

Why is it a Englishman can't make a comment about a Welsh rugby player without getting abuse thrown at them, I've been a big fan of Gethins over the years but even I can see that he isn't the player he was.

Scrumpy wrote: 

Why is it a Englishman can't make a comment about a Welsh rugby player without getting abuse thrown at them, I've been a big fan of Gethins over the years but even I can see that he isn't the player he was.

 

Is it half term?

Scrumpy wrote: 

Why is it a Englishman can't make a comment about a Welsh rugby player without getting abuse thrown at them, I've been a big fan of Gethins over the years but even I can see that he isn't the player he was.

I didn't know you were English. I assumed you were a top notch mathematician/physicist, based on your detailed analysis of speed and distance calculations, but your nationality wasn't relevant to me.

At least Gethin does the hard yards well but I fear we'll never see him sprint under the posts again not unless he finds a yard or two from somewhere.

Night Gentlemen.

Scrumpy wrote: 

Why is it a Englishman can't make a comment about a Welsh rugby player without getting abuse thrown at them, I've been a big fan of Gethins over the years but even I can see that he isn't the player he was.

It is not being an Englishman. You can not have a constructive discussion on the pros and cons of players as all they allow you to say are the pros

So it is the pros and pros of a team discussion

The pitch was a disgrace on Saturday, and it really didn't help the scrums, I'd say you couldn't draw conclusions from that any which way.

Scrumpy wrote:At least Gethin does the hard yards well but I fear we'll never see him sprint under the posts again not unless he finds a yard or two from somewhere.

Night Gentlemen.

haha
 

I am locking this thread boys, there is a new one opened.