ASHTON - SUNK WITHOUT TRACE ?

Well he dived onto the England scene a couple of years ago with quite a few splashes, some frowns from Johnson but significantly helped England to sink Australia both home and away.
But since those halcyon days it is the ugly swan who appears to have sunk without trace....well for  England anyway.
Is there any chance we will see him come splashing to the surface, taking off and flying again this autumn ?

Wade has to replace him, maybe a few games on the bench or out of the team will spark Ashton again, he has been given far too many chances at this level and he failed again on Saturday come on SL give Wade a go his defence is no worse than Ashtons.

 

for an ex league player is defence is dire . attacking players always target him

I was a fan of Ashtons...like his game type etc...but im beginning to be swung that he needs to be replaced.
Mind in his defence...could any winger look good with our current attacking and inventiveness. Though thats why someone like Wade with that ability to create things should possibly be brought in.

Also his defence is no worse than Ashtons...

It didn't hurt Mike Brown being dropped from the team as his come back twice the player he was imo, although he is not a winger.

Wade's defence is rock solid sound compared with Ashton. I've seen wade haul Nick Easter down when Easter was in full flight. That'll do for me Tommy.

When he came in there wasnt much in the way of competition and he showed a brilliant knack for finding the line, if not always much else. Now there is a lot of competition from much more rounded players. Wade's handling skills for instance...

Banahan has a good scoring record against Argentina

An empty shopping trolly on level ground could cause Ashton problems at the moment.  

Scrumpy wrote:It didn't hurt Mike Brown being dropped from the team as his come back twice the player he was imo, although he is not a winger.

In all fairness to Mike...he never got a chance..hardly being dropped playing the odd game. People have said for a few years he needs a good run. Hopefully now he'll get that.

Yard
Wade
Brown

is a back three that could actually have the opposition thinking for once...rather than us worrying about THEIR back three...

If Wales were playing England on the weekend, I'd much rather see Ashton in the side than Wade. Wade can be devastating in attack and he creates things himself, which I'm not sure Ashton does.

I agree he has been given far too many chances, on saturday he didnt really get a chance to show anything beacuse of the hot mess that was 10,12,13 but still he's had soo many flipping chances!!! I'm not sure even wade is the magic cure his defense seems pretty pants, i'd prefer to see him given a chance against the Italians and scots, than lining up against ma' nonu, ben smith, Cory Jane, savea, dagg etc..I wouldn't be against seeing Foden on the wing, his positioning is great, he can tackle like a beast and has strength and pace.

Wade is the young chap that went to Argentina this year?

Yeah Argentina then called up for the lions.

Very jason Robinson / Shane Wilkiams esque. Ie Small in stature , but he can create things from nothing.

Got it, thanks.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=CHRISTIAN+WADE&FORM=HDRSC3&adlt=strict#view=detail&mid=644DC49EF85389E6580C644DC49EF85389E6580C

Yeah remember that, just need to confirm whether it was him, getting old, too much to remember.  

Quite funny when Ashton was on an episode of a league of their own and Jack Whitehall made fun of Ashton for not being able to tackle. Took it well mind you.

I have always thought Ashton needs to concentrate on his game a mature as a player rather than court the limelight with silly try celebrations.

wade was seen combing is hair in the crowd during the 3rd lions game

Hmm The Splash hasn't been setting the international world alight but has been in decent club form (and we like picking on form don't we). The missed tackle of note was a well executed overlap, not sure how 1 defender can be blamed for that. Yarde looked promising but very raw - a back 3 including Yarde & Wade would be well and truly spanked by NZ currently. But Wade does need to be introduced - maybe off the bench or as a replacement for Yarde til both have more experience. I'm far more worried about the centres tbh, and what we do if the unthinkable happens and Robshaw & Wood get injured.

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:wade was seen combing is hair in the  crowd during the 3rd lions game

He'll also have plent of time in the Argie match if the centres don't give him some service.

England haven't played a game to suit Ashton for a while. I think Lancaster decided to stick with him because he expected more offloads from the backs on Saturday. Also, he assumed Ashton's recent form at Saracens would translate to a better all-round game.

Given our midfield muddle, it's not clear that Wade would have got much more out the match but it seems worth giving him a go. If we can't reliably deliver the structure to suit Ashton, and he can't get involved otherwise, then we may as well see what threats another player can pose.

I think Lancaster decided to stick with him because he expected more offloads from the backs on Saturday

Agree with that RugbyFan...indeed i expected a bit more from our carriers providing gaps and oppertunites

The bouncing bomb only had so many bounces in it before it sank. So yes, there is a danger that AshSplash used up too many of his bounces on his early International career.

whenever I see Wade I've never been overtly impressed. He can finish yes but he's no Jason Robinson, he doesn't create from nothing. Now Eastmond is a different story, he has the step, the skills to tear teams apart. But he's played at centre where his size would have been questions even in the days of Sella, Carling, Hastings etc.

Tackling wise how will he deal with someone like George North? Wouldn't it be better to go with the new kid Watson, he has the size and from the JRWC he has the pace.

Is Ashton getting the service and just bodging it up? From Saturday they never broke right, he never took the ball in space outside of his 22 so why are people expecting him to work miracles?

Rugby Fan wrote:England haven't played a game to suit Ashton for a while. I think Lancaster decided to stick with him because he expected more offloads from the backs on Saturday. Also, he assumed Ashton's recent form at Saracens would translate to a better all-round game.

Given our midfield muddle, it's not clear that Wade would have got much more out the match but it seems worth giving him a go. If we can't reliably deliver the structure to suit Ashton, and he can't get involved otherwise, then we may as well see what threats another player can pose.

I agree.  The game plan, or at least the way it was executed, didn't present any opportunities for Ashton.  And when trying to get the ball out wide, almost every play side in the midfield.  I could have played on the wing for all it mattered.

For me, one question about Wade is if he can take 80+ minutes of George North coming at him.  If I were Gatland, that is what I would try to do.

Wasps host Saints on December 21. Might be an England audition for Wade, especially if North is playing.

How is North getting along in AP btw? Anyone?

So.... Lancaster to drop the bouncing bomb ?
Dam...

I saw in Guscott's column that he mentioned that 36 got the ball precisely 4 times. No wonder he didnt look great either.

One more thing that I'd add in Wade's favor is that going by the Argentina matches he is very much a creator as well as a scorer. You don't often see a wing with such good hands. If given a bit of freedom to pop up in the middle he might be the guy to help spark the rest of the backs.

As for Wade vs North - have they done that in the league yet? - The running at thing goes both ways. Imagine Wade running at Cuthbert for instance....

 See the good doc's post above...

SecretFly wrote:How is North getting along in AP btw?  Anyone?

Getting on OK. NOt scoring so much. But that is down to a lot of scores are made in open play and through the forwards and centres. He is in the right places and, critically important, he draws defenders even when he does not have the ball. Which, of course, helps create space for everyone else.

HIs last Heineken Cup match, against Ospreys, was his worst of the season. Knocked on at least 6 times that I remember, three off kicks. But that seems to have been an anomaly. Will bear watching, however.

Thanks for the update Doc.

I think people are being harsh on Ashton, how often is he seeing the ball out wide, and who does he run off inside chanells to exploit gaps?

Ashton loves to track inside the 10 when he's the blindside, which is great if your back row or 10 are a credible line threat, and the 12 is worrying the defence. With Flood and Tuilagi in the team Ashton will capitolize on Flodd playing flatter, Tuilagi a big threat, and opposition back rows worried, Farells game doesn't suit that, and 36 is a ball player not a linethreat.

Ashton needs some ball, some decent ball, and an attacking platform.

There was a little off the cuff pearl of wisdom mentioned on another thread recently; that the 10/12 axis had the ball far more than expected. Unfortunatly it was Billy and Mako who seemed to be in these postitions more often than not. Now that I've just heard that 36 got his mits on the pill a total of 4 times!!?!? It explains so much. No winger can look anything but average in this sort of game. No attacking back really (yes Mike Brown did, but that's the perogative of a FB who gets the ball KICKED to him rather than being part of some expansive play). We seem to be reverting ever so slightly to the 'we got big boys lets give a a rumble' mentality. The fact that our forwards are standing out in back's positions to take the ball virtually stationary might also explain why our pass from the ruck was so ponderous and why Robshaw and Wood looked so knackered towards the end. Forwards should be ball winners first and foremost. We seem to have a bunch of backs stuck in forwards bodies at times. Put (insert whoever you believe to be the world's premier winger here), in this back line and they'd look every bit as jaded.

I’m still a fan of Ashton’s but he really needs to start having more of an impact upon the game. Part of the reason people really noticed him was that he came off his wing and went looking for work. He always seemed to be in the right place at the right time to make the break, why has he stopped doing this?

I think people are also getting on Ashton's case because there is a steady queue of players forming behind him which may be worth a look at. It’s not just Wade, there are a number of players waiting for a chance (as it should be!)

Ashton has had his chance its time for someone else to have a go.

Ashton has been no more effective than what Banahan was yet he was dropped back in 2011, why has Ashton had so many chances?

ultra wrote:There was a little off the cuff pearl of wisdom mentioned on another thread recently; that the 10/12 axis had the ball far more than expected. Unfortunatly it was Billy and Mako who seemed to be in these postitions more often than not. Now that I've just heard that 36 got his mits on the pill a total of 4 times!!?!?  It explains so much. No winger can look anything but average in this sort of game. No attacking back really (yes Mike Brown did, but that's the perogative of a FB who gets the ball KICKED to him rather than being part of some expansive play). We seem to be reverting ever so slightly to the 'we got big boys lets give a a rumble' mentality. The fact that our forwards are standing out in back's positions to take the ball virtually stationary might also explain why our pass from the ruck was so ponderous and why Robshaw and Wood looked so knackered towards the end. Forwards should be ball winners first and foremost. We seem to have a bunch of backs stuck in forwards bodies at times. Put (insert whoever you believe to be the world's premier winger here), in this back line and they'd look every bit as jaded.

That really makes a great deal of sense. BV did look good and certainly has got his fitness up but if he is getting in the way too much maybe we would be better with Morgan to start with - as he is good at choosing when to get involved.

I do think that England deserve a lot of credit for their composure, their scrummaging and their general defense but as usual that is only half of the equation.

The simple truth is that teams adapt to what's put before them..if they see it often enough.
Ashton hit the scene and teams were hit with the surprise of it.  They couldn't contain him because they hadn't time to study his role, his positioning within the English team structure.

But homework gets done eventually and doing what you do do well always becomes more of a challenge the longer you're on the scene.

Does he have the capacity to still find his moments - yes; and against lower level opponents he should find them easier.  But he's no stranger anymore.  International coaches do their homework.  Life gets tighter.

Was it Ashton who took the quick tap which eventually set Yarde off? I think we can all agree it wasn't the best pass but it did raise the tempo at the right time. Ignore me if it wasn't him.

Scrumpy wrote:Ashton has had his chance its time for someone else to have a go.

Ashton has been no more effective than what Banahan was yet he was dropped back in 2011, why has Ashton had so many chances?

because he has scored 17 tries in 30 matches for England whereas Banahan picked 4 in 16 I think. Ashton is a try scorer whereas Banahan is fairly useless at pretty much everything.

GunsGerms wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Ashton has had his chance its time for someone else to have a go.

Ashton has been no more effective than what Banahan was yet he was dropped back in 2011, why has Ashton had so many chances?

because he has scored 17 tries in 30 matches for England whereas Banahan picked 4 in 16 I think. Ashton is a try scorer whereas Banahan is fairly useless at pretty much everything.

Banners not a bad player to have in your squad for the AP (47 tries in 99 appearances for Bath) and to be honest if he wasn't moved around so much and given the same chances as Ashton has had on the wing (and keeps getting), who knows?

Rugby Fan wrote:Was it Ashton who took the quick tap which eventually set Yarde off? I think we can all agree it was forward but it did raise the tempo at the right time. Ignore me if it wasn't him.

Yes, you're right.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Was it Ashton who took the quick tap which eventually set Yarde off? I think we can all agree it was forward but it did raise the tempo at the right time. Ignore me if it wasn't him.

Yes, you're right.

To be fair that's s game plan thing. With the half backs that were chosen the coaches obviously never wanted us to take quick taps or create any broken field rugby. Unfortunately Ashtons style requires this as he hasn't got the step or gas to break a defense himself.

Either bring in guys like Care and Youngs or drop Ashton

fa0019 wrote:whenever I see Wade I've never been overtly impressed. He can finish yes but he's no Jason Robinson, he doesn't create from nothing. Now Eastmond is a different story, he has the step, the skills to tear teams apart. But he's played at centre where his size would have been questions even in the days of Sella, Carling, Hastings etc.

Tackling wise how will he deal with someone like George North? Wouldn't it be better to go with the new kid Watson, he has the size and from the JRWC he has the pace.

Is Ashton getting the service and just bodging it up? From Saturday they never broke right, he never took the ball in space outside of his 22 so why are people expecting him to work miracles?

Hmm, not sure I agree with this. Depends what you mean by creating something from nothing. Creating a space where it wasn't there? No, he's not in Robinson's league. But if put one on one, with the sort of space that would mean 99 per cent of players would go nowhere, he can stand players up better than any player I've seen in a long time. In particular his change of pace is incredible, his general acceleration and his ability to recognise when a player is back on his heels is very very good.

At international level, with this England team, he might struggle, but he'd probably be a better bet than Ashton at the moment. The question re North is a good one - he'd possibly get marmalised. But again, Ashton has fared no better. From 5 yards out head-on, no chance. But his general defence is not shabby.

Watson is and should remain a 15, particularly as his best ability is a late cut infield at pace and through a line. But he could also be very useful.

ultra wrote:There was a little off the cuff pearl of wisdom mentioned on another thread recently; that the 10/12 axis had the ball far more than expected. Unfortunatly it was Billy and Mako who seemed to be in these postitions more often than not. Now that I've just heard that 36 got his mits on the pill a total of 4 times!!?!?  It explains so much. No winger can look anything but average in this sort of game. No attacking back really (yes Mike Brown did, but that's the perogative of a FB who gets the ball KICKED to him rather than being part of some expansive play). We seem to be reverting ever so slightly to the 'we got big boys lets give a a rumble' mentality. The fact that our forwards are standing out in back's positions to take the ball virtually stationary might also explain why our pass from the ruck was so ponderous and why Robshaw and Wood looked so knackered towards the end. Forwards should be ball winners first and foremost. We seem to have a bunch of backs stuck in forwards bodies at times. Put (insert whoever you believe to be the world's premier winger here), in this back line and they'd look every bit as jaded.

Great analysis. BUt I am concerned that our forwards are catching the ball standing still. Even if they are preventing the ball from getting wide - at least they should take the ball at pace, the same as we were taught when 10 years old.

Having rewritten the book on wing play I don't imagine there's much motivation left for the poor guy.

fa0019 wrote:whenever I see Wade I've never been overtly impressed. He can finish yes but he's no Jason Robinson, he doesn't create from nothing. Now Eastmond is a different story, he has the step, the skills to tear teams apart. But he's played at centre where his size would have been questions even in the days of Sella, Carling, Hastings etc.

I would question how many of Wade's games you have watched fa0019, beacuse I would say he has got pretty good feet and a decent step, he's certainly more than just a finisher. Last season he and his wing partner Varndell finished joint top try scorers, with a large number of Varndell's from latching on to the end of something Wade had created with his footwork from popping up in midfield or on the opposite wing.


The best of Wade's two tries from the weekend was definitely more than just a finish.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZy4H1kgOcQ#t=1m15s

The first was your more standard just good finishing.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZy4H1kgOcQ#t=19s

Ashton certainly didn't have a great game at the weekend, but then apart from Brown, no one in the backline did. The big thing for me was his error charging out of the line.

Given the number of new elements in the team I would tend towards giving him one more chance to show something, but then you would be caught having to introduce Wade for the NZ game. Wade on the bench would be one option, coming on early if Ashton underwhelms again, but I'd prefer a centre option on the bench as that looked a more critical underperformance.

timhen wrote:

fa0019 wrote:whenever I see Wade I've never been overtly impressed. He can finish yes but he's no Jason Robinson, he doesn't create from nothing. Now Eastmond is a different story, he has the step, the skills to tear teams apart. But he's played at centre where his size would have been questions even in the days of Sella, Carling, Hastings etc.

I would question how many of Wade's games you have watched fa0019, beacuse I would say he has got pretty good feet and a decent step, he's certainly more than just a finisher.  Last season he and his wing partner Varndell finished joint top try scorers, with a large number of Varndell's from latching on to the end of something Wade had created with his footwork from popping up in midfield or on the opposite wing.


The best of Wade's two tries from the weekend was definitely more than just a finish.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZy4H1kgOcQ#t=1m15s

The first was your more standard just good finishing.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZy4H1kgOcQ#t=19s

I've seen Wade tear teams apart at AP level, he's been double-man-marked for more than a season now on top of that and he created several tries on a plate for Varndell last year. He can definitely create something from nothing

You get the feeling that Wade might come up with something when we aren't firing. It's a big load to put on his shoulders, though, and we didn't see any twinkle toes from him when the Lions were struggling.

Ashton can be an asset when we've got some momentum. He was out of form last year but still got into position to take a scoring pass after Tuilagi ran through Carter. It's not time to write him off but we do want to see Wade somewhere down the line.

Yarde, Wade and Ashton aren't going to be bench players because they can't cover other slots. Consequently, we need to see who are will start. I'd be happy with form wingers playing for us rather than shifting full backs over - even Foden is too much of a compromise. A fit Tait might be reasonable but he hasn't strung together a run of games for some time now.