ASHTON - SUNK WITHOUT TRACE ?

First topic message reminder :

Well he dived onto the England scene a couple of years ago with quite a few splashes, some frowns from Johnson but significantly helped England to sink Australia both home and away.
But since those halcyon days it is the ugly swan who appears to have sunk without trace....well for  England anyway.
Is there any chance we will see him come splashing to the surface, taking off and flying again this autumn ?

Rugby Fan wrote:You get the feeling that Wade might come up with something when we aren't firing. It's a big load to put on his shoulders, though, and we didn't see any twinkle toes from him when the Lions were struggling.

Ashton can be an asset when we've got some momentum. He was out of form last year but still got into position to take a scoring pass after Tuilagi ran through Carter. It's not time to write him off but we do want to see Wade somewhere down the line.

Yarde, Wade and Ashton aren't going to be bench players because they can't cover other slots. Consequently, we need to see who are will start. I'd be happy with form wingers playing for us rather than shifting full backs over - even Foden is too much of a compromise. A fit Tait might be reasonable but he hasn't strung together a run of games for some time now.

To be fair that Lions backline was an absolute joke and that Lions pack played utterly pathetic rugby, if England's pack play like that any time soon I will be disgusted and no winger would be able to sparkle at all, and I doubt we end up playing a retiree on the other wing, a fullback barely out of injury, Goode/Brown/Foden at 10, a 12 at 13 and most of them fresh off a long haul flight any time soon, at least not all at the same time

I get the feeling, that for the first time in living memory. England actually have players who can turn a game through individual moments of game breaking genius at the moment.

Take that Clancy kid. If he's in your team every week you'll go far.

    

  You could send a glass eye to sleep..

Wade can certainly create tries as well as score them himself. He is a heads up player and is very aware of who's around him.

He also steps in at scrum half for Wasps when Simpson or Davies are stuck at the bottom of a ruck. I've not seen him miss his man with the pass when doing so.

However, it is clear that SL does not trust him on defence. I don't know why as he can time a tackle, and did so regularly for England 7s and continues to do so at Wasps.

Sure, you might need a support tackler in their too because Wade's first instinct is to go low.

As people have said - his defence is no worse than Ashton's. I would argue that it is better atm.

Hound of Harrow - Wade's passing game is great for a winger agreed, he creates a lot of tries for others with it in fact. He also offers a genuine threat in areas of the field that England haven't for a long time. Namely in a short side attack and on the counter, plus he runs very clever lines off his scrum half close to the ruck which combined with Youngs/Care's ability in this area could be lethal.

11.Yarde
14.Wade
15.Brown

With Jonny May backing up either wing and Foden challenging at FB is the way forward to me. Tons of pace, good all round skill set from all players named and also players who will look to link with each other as a back three - something else we haven't seen for England since the days of Robinson, Lewsey, Cohen, Ballshaw, etc.

The only change I'd really like to see to that personal given form and fitness is Tait getting a look in at FB. I'm a big fan of Mike Brown but if Tait can return to how he was playing at the end of last season he offers that spark of brilliance at the back due to his extra pace. Plus he's great under the high ball, has a good kicking game and is very good at joining the offensive line when needed.

Who, the worst defender in International world rugby, I highly doubt it.
You have so many better wingers in the premiership, bluddy use them; i like lancaster and feel he is a good coach, but what does he see in him.

Tait is good to have because in theory he provides good centre cover as well, shame he's so injury prone

King Carlos must be Taits dad. Soooooo left field.

I think Wade is if anything underrated - to say he is a good finisher is underselling him imo. He doesn't just  score a lot, he frequently scores from improbable positions in a way that no other player (in this country at least) could - and makes a bunch of tries for his team-mates to boot. At club level he is the most lethal player I can remember seeing - except Caucau in his prime.

No guarantee the same stuff can work at international level, but it seems significant that the two players he is most compared to (Williams and Robinson) actually had considerably better records for their country than for their club. Suggests that his size won't be a problem there (although, as Ashton has found, England's gameplan might!)

Tait was playing well pre injury and, though he may not like it, he has been an excellent utility back, with the skills to slot into most of the backline

I spent a distressingly long time in the last few days watching Ashton's England tries on Youtube after someone on rugbynetwork advocated dropping Brown on the basis that Foden's presence/absence was key to Ashton's England form. In short, Foden was involved in one of Ashton's 17 England tries, when Ashton dived over from two yards against Georgia.

What is clear, however, is that the majority of Ashton's tries have come from his support lines off other players' breaks, most often Flood. With a backline featuring one Farrell and zero Tuilagis, we are simply not going to break the line in midfield that often, and Ashton's main attacking strength is just not a factor. Out wide someone like Wade, with the feet and hands to avoid getting badly isolated, is a far better option.

Every one keeps going on about Lancaster not picking him, but surely it's just as much Mike Catt's call and Andy Farrell's. Both were talented backs in their day and played alongside Jason Robinson at times. They probably know exactly what they'd get from Wade and for what ever reason he doesn't fit the bill.

Should that be a worry? Are England still thinking ultra conservative rugby first, x factor (I hate that phrase) second?

If wade doesnt fit the bill Yappy, then us England fans are in for some dour years of watching rugby...

He is still young and inexperienced, but POTENTIALLY the type of player to light up rugby...just as Shane Williams, Jason Robinsons, Caucau, etc etc have all done.
He has that ability.

Again lets not put him at god /deity status just yet...but he needs to be given a shot.

The thing is though as others have reflected...if none of our major carriers are getting over the gainline on regular occasions as none really did on Saturday then its difficult for backs to do much.

SL picked a line of Dickson, Farrell, 12T (but only after having removed his playmaking skills) and Tomkins. He then exacerbates this staid selection by getting Mako and Hartley to sit in the mid-field and Lawes to lurk on the wing. What on earth would make you think he'd pick Wade (more likely to get confused and bring back Wade Dooley and put him there). Anyway you might as well put Mr Blobby there for all the ball the wingers are going to see.

England got over the gainline plenty against Aus. Some poor passing often followed which was more the problem.

Perhaps it is the coaches that deserve more criticism than the players.

Ashton seems to have played better for Saracens this season with Kevin Sorrell as backs coach.

Sarries backs play has improved since Sorrell replaced Farrell Sr.

Farrell Sr is good at instilling a strong defence but still unconvinced about the England attack.

What does Mike Catt do?

Only need to see Ashton vs Toulouse to know that he's not a bad player.

Saying that I think Wade does deserve a chance.

The Times say Wade will be starting against Argentina in place if Ashton.

I agree with Beshocked though he's going to have his work cut out for him with the team that'll run out there and the coaching England are getting at the momentum.

What DOES Catt do?

beshocked wrote:Perhaps it is the coaches that deserve more criticism than the players.

Ashton seems to have played better for Saracens this season with Kevin Sorrell as backs coach.

Sarries backs play has improved since Sorrell replaced Farrell Sr.

Farrell Sr is good at instilling a strong defence but still unconvinced about the England attack.

What does Mike Catt do?

Only need to see Ashton vs Toulouse to know that he's not a bad player.

Saying that I think Wade does deserve a chance.

Agree with all that. Ashton is limited in what he does, but does seem to be used far more effectively by Saracens - and Sarries are looking a lot more dangerous now Farrell snr has moved on. Ashton can be blamed (if that's the right word) for his defencies, but it's hardly his fault if the coaches employ tactics that stop him from getting involved. In a team with the right balance and right tactics there's no reason why he couldn't be more effective. As much as I think Wade is a class above at the moment and deserves a run, it will make no difference if Farrell jnr is under orders to stand deep and only use passing to the backs as a last resort when he can't (for whatever reason) boot the ball away or offload to a forward so they can try to drive a couple of yards over the gainline.

Big I absolutely agree.

Interesting thing about Farrell Jr from what I have heard is that he does want to play flatter but is under orders to kick more often.

England perhaps should have recruited Alex King instead of Mike Catt looking at the work Alex King has done with Clermont and Saints.

To be fair, I'm not Ashton's biggest fan, and its been mentioned onhere already, but when you have a playmaking 12 like Twelvetrees, and a player like Tomkins who's ability to offload put him in the frame, WHY ON EARTH ARE THE VUNIPOLAS STANDING IN MIDFIELD ALL THE TIME?!

The wingers didnt get much to do, neither did the centres, which sums up Englands gameplan against Aus.

If you're not going to use the backline talents you have at your disposal, and I mean even as far infield as the inside centre, what difference is swapping an Ashton for a Wade?

My fear is that we will play well against, with all due respect, a weak Argentina team compared to the Aussies and NZ, with a few tries being run in using the same game plan we used last week.

Then we try to do the same against NZ, and end the AIs by getting royally humped by a fired up All Blacks side

It wasn't a pretty game thats for sure. There is no taking the ball at pace.

In SA players line up in wave upon wave of attack. 3 at a time 1 taking in 2 to ruck over.

Vunipola was taking the ball standing half the time.

The one time he did was when hartley came on and England got quick ball off the lineout... gainline smashed that time.

Its amazing why its not done more.

BamBam wrote:My fear is that we will play well against, with all due respect, a weak Argentina team compared to the Aussies and NZ, with a few tries being run in using the same game plan we used last week.

Then we try to do the same against NZ, and end the AIs by getting royally humped by a fired up All Blacks side

You need a tune up game to gear up the pressure on NZ. Make them feel England require respect and fill the lungs of the England players. Will all go to plan if England can perform well against ARG.