World Tour Finals Day 5 & 6 thread

[JuliusHMarx]

First topic message reminder :

Here it is. Don't all post at once.

[Guest]

Yeah that's a less than 24 turnaround for the older man not including media commitments. That's rough

[ALPanorak]

This is the worst I've seen Novak play in a long time. Even in the first set his body language is just off and he's playing so sloppily. I think he's struggling with being aggressive in the face of Gasquet's passivity.

[Josiah Maiestas]

So Fed-Nadal tomorrow at 2pm. Could of given him the evening slot, let him relax a little.

Federer laughs at Nadal's inferior indoors game.

Easier than finding sand in a desert  

[Henman Bill]

So 4 men left standing at the season end

Nadal
Djokovic
Federer
Warwinka

That makes great reading for Stan, well done on him for this season.

[Henman Bill]

Bookmakers giving Stan a 15-20% chance to make the final, Roger more like 30%. Sounds about right to me.

Novak actually odds on now to win the whole tournament as well, so with a bit better chance to win the tournament than 50/50.

[naxroy]

the perfect semifinals would have been djokovic-murray and delpo-nadal

[naxroy]

I think that nadal djokovic would be a good summary end of the season

they fought in montecarlo final, in the great roland garros semifinal, in canada semis, us open final and beijing final

2 masters, 2 slams and 1 atp500 meeting. 3-2 for nadal. number 1 and 2 of the season. perfect final I would say and probably very important for what will come next season

[laverfan]

Gasquet put up a fight despite a dead (per SoCal) rubber.

If Gasquet had won, the odds that HB is quoting would have definitely been different.

[Roger Laver]

Gasquet put up a fight despite a dead (per SoCal) rubber.

If Gasquet had won, the odds that HB is quoting would have definitely been different.

I think Stan has a better shot at the upset than Roger.

It would be a terrific achievement if Roger wins a set. He has been playing 3 setters by the buckets. I think the last bastion of Team RF, the Indoors is going to be sent crumbling by the El Toro!

I picked Nole for the title, but I think Rafa might be the fresher and more hungry of the 2 and Novak has come 2nd in the big matches this.

Anyway without getting too far ahead....

Allez Fed and Hoppe Schwiiz [pardon if my French/Swiss german is off!]

[HM Murdock]

Novak looks like he is running on fumes. I really think Stan may get the win tomorrow.

With Rafa looking a bit below his best too, I think the most entertaining final may actually be Stan v Roger.

[Johnyjeep]

So Fed-Nadal tomorrow at 2pm. Could of given him the evening slot, let him relax a little.

I thought this tbf. Especially as it's these two you'd have thought...evening slot. But then thought..that would be massively unfair on Djoko (or whoever was due to play this semi from Group B).

[laverfan]

It would be a terrific achievement if Roger wins a set.

You mean like this… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwlCYjdn5I4

[Roger Laver]

Novak looks like he is running on fumes. I really think Stan may get the win tomorrow.

True dat.... Don't be surprised if it is a Rafa-stan final. Group B was indeed a Group of Death!

[Roger Laver]

It would be a terrific achievement if Roger wins a set.

You mean like this… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwlCYjdn5I4

Exactly like that.... I was just going through the preview our team wrote for that match and I cannot see anything from that match, that might help Roger.

Here is the preview we wrote then....

http://sportzcosmos.com/2013/08/16/legends-meet-in-the-cin-city/

On a more scary/joyful note, we seem to think alike LaverFan.... "is it great minds think alike" or...... well you know what i am talking about?

[laverfan]

At 3-3, 30-30—two points after Nadal was trailing 0-30—Federer showed the same versatility that earned him the decisive break in the first set. He had a chance to earn another potentially devastating break point after a grueling rally, but hit his down-the-line forehand an inch or two wide, as confirmed by Hawk-Eye. It was a huge point and in retrospect was Federer’s best chance to take total control of this contest.

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/08/cincinnati-nadal-d-federer/48767/#.Un7NfaUYZSY

Fedal matches are typically close. I am looking forward to a keen context tomorrow, despite Federer's age. That 30% is not right, IMVHO.

The better player on the day will win it.

[summerblues]

That 30% is not right, IMVHO.

You think it is more than 30%?  I so hope you are right, but so think you are not.

Nevertheless, good luck to Roger tomorrow.

[Roger Laver]

Fedal matches are typically close. I am looking forward to a keen context tomorrow, despite Federer's age. That 30% is not right, IMVHO.

The better player on the day will win it.

Definitely looking forward to it, but 30% seems fair enough. There is a reason why All rivalries except 2, in open era, with 25+ matches have the younger guy in the lead.

2 of them = Djokovic-Federer, soon to change. Djokovic-Nadal = they are more or less the same age.

Tennis is a youngman's game. How mang GS have been won by 30+ players?

[socal1976]

Fedal matches are typically close. I am looking forward to a keen context tomorrow, despite Federer's age. That 30% is not right, IMVHO.

The better player on the day will win it.

Definitely looking forward to it, but 30% seems fair enough. There is a reason why All rivalries except 2, in open era, with 25+ matches have the younger guy in the lead.

2 of them = Djokovic-Federer, soon to change. Djokovic-Nadal = they are more or less the same age.

Tennis is a youngman's game. How mang GS have been won by 30+ players?

Except that Nadal first beat Federer on a hardcourt when he was 17 years old far from his peak and has pretty much owned Federer or at the least had the advantage in the head to head when he was far from a finished product. I can't think of a supposed GOAT getting so thoroughly and utterly dominated by a contemporary player of similar standing from day one. Nadal today is a far superior player to the player that made minced meat of Federer in his prime. This is Nadal's worst surface and fed has a shot, but I can't see it happening in my opinion especially since Fed's conditioning is not what it used to be and he just played a gruelling match against Del Po.

[Roger Laver]

I can't think of a supposed GOAT getting so thoroughly and utterly dominated by a contemporary player of similar standing from day one. Nadal today is a far superior player to the player that made minced meat of Federer in his prime. This is Nadal's worst surface and fed has a shot, but I can't see it happening in my opinion especially since Fed's conditioning is not what it used to be and he just played a gruelling match against Del Po.

Nadal made mince meat of Federer? Where? Only on clay. Outside Clay, it is still only 8-8.

I often give the following example. If Federer retired/quit/escaped his rival like Borg did, around 26years [end of 2007] Fed would have a 6-8 H2H with Rafa - very comparable to Borg's 7-7 H2H record when Borg r/q/e from tennis.

Nadal only improved his H2H against Federer after Federer started declining. Very much like Lendl winning 17 in a row against Jimmy Connors. If that is the statistic you are going to use to degrade Connors, you are on thin ice.

I can show up loopholes in every GOAT candidate's Resume. Of All, Roger/Laver's resume are the ones with least holes. What good did Nadal's domination of Federer do? He has hardly got 120 weeks at no.1 when the 2 previous GOAT contenders before him raked up close to 300 weeks. [Sampras/Federer]. Most likely Djokovic will end up with more weeks at no.1 than Rafa. Djokovic also has more Hard court slams, Indoor titles, and by the looks of it, he will end his career with more Wimbledon titles [Rafa lost 1st and 2nd round at Wimbledon - Djokovic had semis and finals those 2 years].

I can list out more for Rafa, - Indoors he is 36th all time winning % wise - his inability indoors is on par with Sampras' on clay and so on........

Same goes for Sampras/Borg.

Roger and Laver - yes they have knocks on their resume but lesser than the other 3.

Once we add "how" they play and aesthetics of the game, Laver and Roger are way ahead of the others. After all sport is not just about playing to win, it is also "how" you play. Genius like Laver/Roger make tennis look easy. Nadal, except on clay, doesn't do so. He makes it look tedious and laborious. Then there is the iconic status in their era. Laver, Borg, Sampras, Federer, who is next? Dimitrov, Jerzy or someone else.

[Roger Laver]

From Mr. Laver. Looks like he doesn't seem to mind Rafa making "mince meat" of Roger!

"When I look at Federer, with what he's accomplished, against the competition that he's accomplished it with, I'd have to say I would think that Roger is the greatest player,'' Laver said.

Nevertheless, the Australian was quick to add that he doesn’t believe that the Swiss is the greatest of all time. According to him, one can only be the greatest of his or her era.

"I've always said if you're the best in your era, that's as good as you really can do. You could take it back to 'Is it Fred Perry, is it Don Budge, is it myself that came along?' ''

[Born Slippy]

"Nadal only improved his H2H against Federer after Federer started declining. Very much like Lendl winning 17 in a row against Jimmy Connors. If that is the statistic you are going to use to degrade Connors, you are on thin ice."

Interesting of course that the 17 in a row started when Jimmy was 32. At that time, Jimmy led about 13-6. There is a big difference in accepting that a player is declining at 32 or whether a player who has never suffered a severe injury would really be in physical decline at 26.

[socal1976]

Exactly BS, leave it to you to state the argument more succinctly and forcefully than I ever could. This is not the same thing as Lendl and Connors as you pointed out Connors played till nearly 40 years old against a peak lendl, where Nadal beat Federer regularly and has beaten pretty routinely in all of the grandslam finals they have played. Fed's last grandslam final win against Nadal was in 2007 that is six years ago, as I have stated this is the most overrated non-rivalry possibly in the history of the sport resting on the laurels of two epic encounters 5 years ago.

Nadal's weeks at #1 would surely have been different except for serious chronic injury issues that have impacted that statistic. Despite rarely finishing a single season, I can't even remember the last season Nadal played from start to finish he has 13 slams, just 4 behind Federer and one behind #2 Sampras.

[socal1976]

As for aesthetics if this was a beauty contest or figure skating that would be one thing but this is tennis and they keep score.

[laverfan]

Tennis is a youngman's game. How mang GS have been won by 30+ players?

https://www.606v2.com/t49358-atp-tournaments-winners-over-30-1968-2013-open-era

The GOAT debate should move to another thread. This is the WTF thread.

@Socal… They, who track score, also keep track of MTOs, Retirements, etc. (BTW, it looks like you are living out of the suitcase, if I am not mistaken. Macallan on the Rocks helps).

[Johnyjeep]

Personally the big loop holes for me in Nadal's case are lack of weeks at No.1, He's roughly speaking almost 4 years behind Fed and 3 behind Sampras. Also he has never managed to defend a non-clay tournament. And he's never had back to back year end No.1.

So even when he hasn't been 'injured', which is a lot of the time...he hasn't managed to consistently dominate or beat his peers off the clay.

As RL says quite correctly states..everyone has loopholes. Some more than others. I can't possibly attribute success to someone on the basis of what ifs. Every player can lay claim to that card. Sorry LF..no more I promise  

[HM Murdock]

Fed's last grandslam final win against Nadal was in 2007 that is six years ago, as I have stated this is the most overrated non-rivalry possibly in the history of the sport resting on the laurels of two epic encounters 5 years ago.  

Well said. It's as if this 'rivalry' exists in stasis in people's minds.

[Roger Laver]

Tennis is a youngman's game. How mang GS have been won by 30+ players?

https://www.606v2.com/t49358-atp-tournaments-winners-over-30-1968-2013-open-era

The GOAT debate should move to another thread. This is the WTF thread.

@Socal… They, who track score, also keep track of MTOs, Retirements, etc. (BTW, it looks like you are living out of the suitcase, if I am not mistaken. Macallan on the Rocks helps).

Thank you Laver Fan! I like the point about MTOs and Retirements! So what is your call for today's match?

Here is mine:

El Mago vs El Toro

[laverfan]

Fed's last grandslam final win against Nadal was in 2007 that is six years ago, as I have stated this is the most overrated non-rivalry possibly in the history of the sport resting on the laurels of two epic encounters 5 years ago.  

Well said. It's as if this 'rivalry' exists in stasis in people's minds.

There are then a lot of spectators in a stasis HM. Take a look at this… http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/Tennis/2013/11/45/London-Finale-Sunday-Preview-Nadal-Federer.aspx

There are 31 Fedal matches to 38 Nadalovic matches. So the quantity statistic favours Nadalovic. Perhaps the reason is a perception of quality vs quantity, coupled with nostalgia.

Topic for another thread, methinks.

@JJ.. Thanks.

[laverfan]

@RL… Would like to see the first 4 games before making a call. If it is Cincy style approach, I would favor Federer, but if it is a Miami style match, then Nadal.

[hawkeye]

Fed's last grandslam final win against Nadal was in 2007 that is six years ago, as I have stated this is the most overrated non-rivalry possibly in the history of the sport resting on the laurels of two epic encounters 5 years ago.  

Well said. It's as if this 'rivalry' exists in stasis in people's minds.

Djokovic is a great player but his best matches tend to be against Federer or Nadal. Most people want to see a good show. It matters less who wins.

[JuliusHMarx]

Fed's last grandslam final win against Nadal was in 2007 that is six years ago, as I have stated this is the most overrated non-rivalry possibly in the history of the sport resting on the laurels of two epic encounters 5 years ago.  

Well said. It's as if this 'rivalry' exists in stasis in people's minds.

It's almost as if the media have to over-hype everything. They'll be using inappropriate terms like 'golden era' next
(Haven't I posted this before a couple of days ago?)

I think I've also said before that they've probably only had 3 or 4 matches where both were at their best - the age difference/peak years difference didn't really allow for more than that.

[Guest]

Well just one point really. The most striking stat is that it's 8-2 to nadal in slam play federer hasn't beaten him in a slam in 6 years

[laverfan]

Forehando/Marrero through to the final of Doubles.

[Roger Laver]

@RL… Would like to see the first 4 games before making a call. If it is Cincy style approach, I would favor Federer, but if it is a Miami style match, then Nadal.

Fair enough LF

Regarding FEDAL : Definitely quality over quantity. I like Djokovic but surely he cannot bring the variety Roger brings. Murray has the variety but doesnt have the aggression that contrasts with Nadal.

Federer's variety and aggression contrasts well with Nadal's singlemindedness and defense, IMO {not into humbullness

[Henman Bill]

I agree with naxroy that Nadal-Djokovic would in some ways be the right final - between the 2 unbeaten players here as well as the 2 best players in the season.

[laverfan]

@RL… Federer in 3.

[Guest]

Couple of poor slices and Feds been broken

[LuvSports!]

ALLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!! FEDS BREAKS BACK!

[LuvSports!]

broken

[LuvSports!]

Important hold there.

[laverfan]

Federer. Badly played.

Nadal. It would be good to see a WTF on his resume.

[socal1976]

Fed's last grandslam final win against Nadal was in 2007 that is six years ago, as I have stated this is the most overrated non-rivalry possibly in the history of the sport resting on the laurels of two epic encounters 5 years ago.  

Well said. It's as if this 'rivalry' exists in stasis in people's minds.

Djokovic is a great player but his best matches tend to be against Federer or Nadal. Most people want to see a good show. It matters less who wins.

What are you talking about that is like watching a movie you have seen 20 times and expecting a different ending. Nadal v. Fed is about as entertaining as watching Friday 13th sequel.

[socal1976]

Fed's last grandslam final win against Nadal was in 2007 that is six years ago, as I have stated this is the most overrated non-rivalry possibly in the history of the sport resting on the laurels of two epic encounters 5 years ago.  

Well said. It's as if this 'rivalry' exists in stasis in people's minds.

It's almost as if the media have to over-hype everything. They'll be using inappropriate terms like 'golden era' next
(Haven't I posted this before a couple of days ago?)

I think I've also said before that they've probably only had 3 or 4 matches where both were at their best - the age difference/peak years difference didn't really allow for more than that.

Please Julius as the saying goes excuses are like arseeholes everyone has got one. The rivalry has sucked for years. The media should be paying me royalties as I have been calling out Golden Era since early 2008 and in the last 2-3 years they have pilfered my lyrical brilliance and visionary tennis analysis.

[JuliusHMarx]

Fed's last grandslam final win against Nadal was in 2007 that is six years ago, as I have stated this is the most overrated non-rivalry possibly in the history of the sport resting on the laurels of two epic encounters 5 years ago.  

Well said. It's as if this 'rivalry' exists in stasis in people's minds.

It's almost as if the media have to over-hype everything. They'll be using inappropriate terms like 'golden era' next
(Haven't I posted this before a couple of days ago?)

I think I've also said before that they've probably only had 3 or 4 matches where both were at their best - the age difference/peak years difference didn't really allow for more than that.

Please Julius as the saying goes excuses are like arseeholes everyone has got one. The rivalry has sucked for years.

Which is basically what I said - good of you to agree with me.

The media should be paying me royalties as I have been calling out Golden Era since early 2008 and in the last 2-3 years they have pilfered my lyrical brilliance and visionary tennis analysis.

Yeah, it's not like you to go in for extreme (and thus inaccurate) hyperbole.

[socal1976]

Compared to rollover and drop your trousers generation that preceded the current crop one can not can be forgiven for rejoicing in the quality of today's stars.

[socal1976]

Oh my god Djokovic just hit one of the most incredible passes I have ever seen

[JuliusHMarx]

Compared to rollover and drop your trousers generation that preceded the current crop one can not can be forgiven for rejoicing in the quality of today's stars.

Thank you for the perfect illustration of my point.

[hawkeye]

Fed's last grandslam final win against Nadal was in 2007 that is six years ago, as I have stated this is the most overrated non-rivalry possibly in the history of the sport resting on the laurels of two epic encounters 5 years ago.  

Well said. It's as if this 'rivalry' exists in stasis in people's minds.

It's almost as if the media have to over-hype everything. They'll be using inappropriate terms like 'golden era' next
(Haven't I posted this before a couple of days ago?)

I think I've also said before that they've probably only had 3 or 4 matches where both were at their best - the age difference/peak years difference didn't really allow for more than that.

Please Julius as the saying goes excuses are like arseeholes everyone has got one. The rivalry has sucked for years. The media should be paying me royalties as I have been calling out Golden Era since early 2008 and in the last 2-3 years they have pilfered my lyrical brilliance and visionary tennis analysis.

Rubbish! Most of the media have been writing Federer's obituary for years. That is when they are not predicting any minute that Nalal will keel over very soon. This year was supposed to be the year of Murovic (or something like that). Its just that Federer refuses to retire, Nadal refuses to follow the script and the general public (along with the more discerning tennis fans  ) knows a good thing when they see it even if they are told otherwise.

[Guest]

Holy balls... that was prime from Novak, itll take a hell of a match to stop this juggernaut

[socal1976]

I think Djokovic on current form goes into the final as the favorite Falzy, also the surface suits his game more naturally.

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