England v New Zealand match thread

[quinsforever]

First topic message reminder :

2.30pm at Twickenham on Saturday.

Betfair has england 5:1 against. Sounds about right to me.

Are NZ wearing black this time? I hope so. don't think France or anyone else found the Haka quite the same performed in what looked like white gym T-shirts.

My prediction, fwiw (and i know that's not much), NZ to win by 6, england to dominate at scrums, lineouts 50:50, 60% possession England but Joubert tough (but predictable and consistent) on holding on means isolated possession gives NZ the scoring edge from penalties, and NZ classically more clinical with open/broken field possession.

Really looking forwards to it though.

Anyone going?

[Barney McGrew did it]

Hmm let’s see:
Smith, Carter, Piatau, Nonu, Smith, Jane, Dagg
or
Dickson, Farrell, 12T/Flood, Tomkins, Ashton, Foden, Brown.
Unless our pack gives the ABs the almightiest of spankings, or the Splash starts his swallow dives from the halfway line, there’s only 1 way this is heading on Saturday. With no sign of man-flu or Manu we're doomed.

[fa0019]

Hansen is just trying to wind up there players, give them motivation.

What motivation do you have when you've conquered all?

I'm sure you will see the ABs going to great lengths to try and provoke the English into gearing them up... up will come some haka disrespecting article no doubt.

[gregortree]

Ok, we want to gradually move up.... but where did he get that bit from ?

He's extrapolating that from Lancaster's comments about wanting to be number 2 in the IRB rankings.

Of course, Lancaster hasn't come anywhere near to suggesting we'll put four tries on them but Hansen isn't shy about going for the wind-up.

Maybe GE is Hansen's secret speech-writer.
Makes Lancaster look Trappist by comparison.

[GloriousEmpire]

I see the All Blacks played in All White in Paris...

Hmm, I hadn't considered it but perhaps that's why we were so awful.

[Triangulation]

Hansen ups the Ante
"There is a real edge going into Twickenham," Hansen said.
"They're going well, we're going okay. Both teams are looking forward to playing. I hear already they're talking about scoring four tries and going to No2 in the world, so they've obviously got a lot of confidence."

Ok, we want to gradually move up.... but where did he get that bit from ?

I read that Lancaster put it as a goal to be 2nd i the world by the end of the year... but unless the boks lose to either Scotland or France it won't happen. Nothing wrong with that though. Goals are important.

I have noticed that the saffas are particularly quick to slate England at present. Any opportunity they get. I take it as a compliment. Not necessarily you FA but it has been noted.

[GloriousEmpire]

Ok, we want to gradually move up.... but where did he get that bit from ?

He's extrapolating that from Lancaster's comments about wanting to be number 2 in the IRB rankings.

Of course, Lancaster hasn't come anywhere near to suggesting we'll put four tries on them but Hansen isn't shy about going for the wind-up.

Warburton is quoted today as saying Wales will win the rest of their AIs, so it's clearly quote day.

[Biltong]

Hansen ups the Ante
"There is a real edge going into Twickenham," Hansen said.
"They're going well, we're going okay. Both teams are looking forward to playing. I hear already they're talking about scoring four tries and going to No2 in the world, so they've obviously got a lot of confidence."

Ok, we want to gradually move up.... but where did he get that bit from ?

I read that Lancaster put it as a goal to be 2nd i the world by the end of the year... but unless the boks lose to either Scotland or France it won't happen. Nothing wrong with that though. Goals are important.

I have noticed that the saffas are particularly quick to slate England at present. Any opportunity they get. I take it as a compliment. Not necessarily you FA but it has been noted.

the saffas are slating England?

There aren't that many if us, you'll have to provide more detail.

[fa0019]

I see the All Blacks played in All White in Paris...

Hmm, I hadn't considered it but perhaps that's why we were so awful.

They played in all White!!!! How dare they... "only the English are allowed to wear white"!!!!

Now where did I hear something similar before??? How come there was no like for like outcry?

[nobbled]

I see the All Blacks played in All White in Paris...

Hmm, I hadn't considered it but perhaps that's why we were so awful.

All White - like the traditional French War Flag  

[gregortree]

I see the All Blacks played in All White in Paris...

Hmm, I hadn't considered it but perhaps that's why we were so awful.

Maybe we could swap shirts before kick off then to even things up ?

[beshocked]

Hopefully England fans drown out the Haka again with Swing low sweet chariot.... 

[Big]

I read that Lancaster put it as a goal to be 2nd i the world by the end of the year... but unless the boks lose to either Scotland or France it won't happen. Nothing wrong with that though. Goals are important.

I read that his target was the end of the season not the end of the year - which in this hemisphere isn't until after the summer tests. It's vaguely conceivable that England could pick up enough points to go 2nd with a grand slam in the 6 nations (especially if a win is somehow managed against New Zealand this weekend), but even if that's managed I'm struggling to see them retaining that when touring New Zealand at the end of the season...

I like the idea of swapping points before the match. Would we get points whenever New Zealand score?

[Bullsbok]

I read that Lancaster put it as a goal to be 2nd i the world by the end of the year... but unless the boks lose to either Scotland or France it won't happen. Nothing wrong with that though. Goals are important.

I read that his target was the end of the season not the end of the year - which in this hemisphere isn't until after the summer tests.  It's vaguely conceivable that England could pick up enough points to go 2nd with a grand slam in the 6 nations (especially if a win is somehow managed against New Zealand this weekend), but even if that's managed I'm struggling to see them retaining that when touring New Zealand at the end of the season...

I like the idea of swapping points before the match.  Would we get points whenever New Zealand score?

Theres a problem with the system if a team can jump the team above it in the rankings by beating teams ranked below it . ie If England become the 2nd ranked team in the world with a hypothetical six nations grand slam without having to first beat the Springboks or All blacks

[GloriousEmpire]

I see the All Blacks played in All White in Paris...

Hmm, I hadn't considered it but perhaps that's why we were so awful.

They played in all White!!!! How dare they... "only the English are allowed to wear white"!!!!

Now where did I hear something similar before??? How come there was no like for like outcry?

White has always been the change strip. Unlike some teams who choose an away to clash with the RWC host nations long established iconic game wear...

Or a cheap imitation in which the numbers fall off faster than the wearers tackles...

[BamBam]

Darn those Scottish with their white away strip

[beshocked]

Glorious Empire as if New Zealand are the first and only team to wear black. You don't have the right to own black.

By your logic England could lay claim to white. Scotland to dark blue etc.

[Alex_Germany]

New Zealand are favourites. England will need to produce something exceptional to beat them.

Which to my mind means taking a few risks and playing Wade and Yarde on the wings. Wade may get bowled over and England lose. Or he may get his foot of space on the wing and score some tries.

This isn't England v Australia or Wales in the RWC pool stage. England can afford to take some risks and have a go.

It should make for a cracking game.

[GloriousEmpire]

Glorious Empire as if New Zealand are the first and only team to wear black. You don't have the right to own black.

By your logic England could lay claim to white. Scotland to dark blue etc.

Well I'm not the one starting this argument am I? It was in fact a British club team who tried to trade
Mark the black kit and name "All Blacks" so not really sure why you're having a pop at NZ at all.

Seems like you're trying to provoke a childish fight in game week whilst everyone else is being mutually complimentary and gracious.

[quinsforever]

I read that Lancaster put it as a goal to be 2nd i the world by the end of the year... but unless the boks lose to either Scotland or France it won't happen. Nothing wrong with that though. Goals are important.

I read that his target was the end of the season not the end of the year - which in this hemisphere isn't until after the summer tests.  It's vaguely conceivable that England could pick up enough points to go 2nd with a grand slam in the 6 nations (especially if a win is somehow managed against New Zealand this weekend), but even if that's managed I'm struggling to see them retaining that when touring New Zealand at the end of the season...

I like the idea of swapping points before the match.  Would we get points whenever New Zealand score?

Theres a problem with the system if a team can jump the team above it in the rankings by beating teams ranked below it . ie If England become the 2nd ranked team in the world with a hypothetical six nations grand slam without having to first beat the Springboks or All blacks

to be fair i think england's best chance of going 2nd was if SA lost vs Wales, which they didnt. so nothing for you to worry about old bean

[GloriousEmpire]

New Zealand are favourites. England will need to produce something exceptional to beat them.

Which to my mind means taking a few risks and playing Wade and Yarde on the wings. Wade may get bowled over and England lose. Or he may get his foot of space on the wing and score some tries.

This isn't England v Australia or Wales in the RWC pool stage. England can afford to take some risks and have a go.

It should make for a cracking game.

If England think wade and Yarde are the future they should play them irrespective of who the opponent is. I could be mistaken but my feeling was that Yarde is a bit raw for internationals and might need some time as a project player. Obviously very quick, but I thought his defence was a bit erratic and he was lucky to escape a yellow at a crucial time against the Ozzies.

[beshocked]

Glorious Empire as if New Zealand are the first and only team to wear black. You don't have the right to own black.

By your logic England could lay claim to white. Scotland to dark blue etc.

Well I'm not the one starting this argument am I? It was in fact a British club team who tried to trade
Mark the black kit and name "All Blacks" so not really sure why you're having a pop at NZ at all.

Seems like you're trying to provoke a childish fight in game week whilst everyone else is being mutually complimentary and gracious.

You of all posters are calling me childish?  

Pop at NZ not all. Just pointing out you don't own black.

Gracious and complimentary? Perhaps you should try it some time.

[GloriousEmpire]

Glorious Empire as if New Zealand are the first and only team to wear black. You don't have the right to own black.

By your logic England could lay claim to white. Scotland to dark blue etc.

Well I'm not the one starting this argument am I? It was in fact a British club team who tried to trade
Mark the black kit and name "All Blacks" so not really sure why you're having a pop at NZ at all.

Seems like you're trying to provoke a childish fight in game week whilst everyone else is being mutually complimentary and gracious.

You of all posters are calling me childish?  

Pop at NZ not all. Just pointing out you don't own black.

Gracious and complimentary? Perhaps you should try it some time.

Never said we did. Look mate, I'm not really interested in this today. So how about we just drop it? Too many interesting things for one of these off-season time fillers.

[quinsforever]

New Zealand are favourites. England will need to produce something exceptional to beat them.

Which to my mind means taking a few risks and playing Wade and Yarde on the wings. Wade may get bowled over and England lose. Or he may get his foot of space on the wing and score some tries.

This isn't England v Australia or Wales in the RWC pool stage. England can afford to take some risks and have a go.

It should make for a cracking game.

If England think wade and Yarde are the future they should play them irrespective of who the opponent is. I could be mistaken but my feeling was that Yarde is a bit raw for internationals and might need some time as a project player. Obviously very quick, but I thought his defence was a bit erratic and he was lucky to escape a yellow at a crucial time against the Ozzies.

i detect a whiff of fear GE...

tuilagi and yarde are explosive players who can score points. which england are going to have to do just to make the game anything like a close contest on the scoreboard.

i would go with yarde and ashton, and if wade was fit would put him on the bench and bring him on at half time unless ashton has a hat-trick.

[funnyExiledScot]

I personally think Scotland should have poached the "All Black" strip back in the mid-90s, purely for the slimming effect it would have had on our forwards.....

[GloriousEmpire]

New Zealand are favourites. England will need to produce something exceptional to beat them.

Which to my mind means taking a few risks and playing Wade and Yarde on the wings. Wade may get bowled over and England lose. Or he may get his foot of space on the wing and score some tries.

This isn't England v Australia or Wales in the RWC pool stage. England can afford to take some risks and have a go.

It should make for a cracking game.

If England think wade and Yarde are the future they should play them irrespective of who the opponent is. I could be mistaken but my feeling was that Yarde is a bit raw for internationals and might need some time as a project player. Obviously very quick, but I thought his defence was a bit erratic and he was lucky to escape a yellow at a crucial time against the Ozzies.

i detect a whiff of fear GE...

tuilagi and yarde are explosive players who can score points. which england are going to have to do just to make the game anything like a close contest on the scoreboard.

i would go with yarde and ashton, and if wade was fit would put him on the bench and bring him on at half time unless ashton has a hat-trick.

Whiff of fear? Look England have dragged themselves from introspective wasteful chest beating dicks (quite frankly) to form a very impressive and dignified side in a very short period of time. They're starting to look composed and dangerous and have a lot of components of a world beating side. Journalists in NZ are taking note and giving a lot of respect. It's genuinely nice to see England delivering on their vast potential. This weekends game will probably be the most anticipated trans-hemisphere clash (lions aside) since 2003. So a lot of respect from me. Not fear, just acceptance that England are a quality side suddenly and the time for taking the urine out of them is temporarily suspended.

[rodders]

I fancy England here actually.

The ABs are starting to look a bit tired and were a bit flat against France...I wonder if the SA game took a lot out of them mentally, it was such an immense performance.

England by 12.

Based on what excatly ? I'm curious

A poor victory against a dodgy Aus side or a brilliant first half against the Pumas ?

I thought I already said? The ABs weren't great against France, I think England could be catching them at a good time.

[Triangulation]

To have any hope in hell vs the All Blacks we have to play at breakneck tempo.

That doesnt mean throwing it wide with gay abandon without having first dented the defensive line.

It does mean good direct running, great support play and offloading where possible and fast recyluing and ball movement away from the contact area. We will also need to change the point of attack.

Do all of this for 80 minutes at a high tempo and we have a hope.

Otherwise we're cactus.

All of which means of course that we will be will be cactus. Doomed we are.

We'll get a hiding and then all the haters from around the rugby world will give us heaps.

They'd rather see the ABs win 10,000 matches on the bounce than us take a win over them.

[Cyril]

Tri, what's wrong with being cactus?

Cacti have loads of points.

[GloriousEmpire]

A bunch of pricks did you say ?

[jamesandimac]

On a serious note, how does everyone see the battle up front going?

[Cyril]

A bunch of pricks did you say ?

Fair enough, you have bested me, sir.

[Casartelli]

I see the All Blacks played in All White in Paris...

Hmm, I hadn't considered it but perhaps that's why we were so awful.

They played in all White!!!! How dare they... "only the English are allowed to wear white"!!!!

Now where did I hear something similar before??? How come there was no like for like outcry?

White has always been the change strip. Unlike some teams who choose an away to clash with the RWC host nations long established iconic game wear...

Or a cheap imitation in which the numbers fall off faster than the wearers tackles...

"...iconic game wear..."

You'd have to admit, there is comic genius in that one.

[kingelderfield]

Not really enjoying this, ofcourse I expect our forwards to give everything for the cause, beyond that we don't offer anything.

If fit kingelderfield selects;

Foden
Wade
Burrell
Twelvetrees
May
Flood
Youngs
Morgan
Garvey
Wood(c)
Attwood
Parling
Corbisiero
Hartley
Cole

Yarde
Burns
Care
Vunipola, B
Lawes
Wilson
Webber
Marler

Piano players, piano shifters.

I imagine Farrell and Lancaster to select another weak disjointed side without any real understanding of what their trying to achieve and therefore the AB's by 20+

If this plays out as I forsee then Lancaster should resign immediately

[tigerleghorn]

I see the All Blacks played in All White in Paris...

Hmm, I hadn't considered it but perhaps that's why we were so awful.

All White - like the traditional French War Flag  

Ouch!...Not sure that's an appropriate comment today of all days tbh.

[Cyril]

kingelderfield,

Just the 11 changes* (12 with Foden moving position) from the last game in the starting line-up then?

Seems like you and Lancaster don't quite see eye to eye!

* I realise a few of these are injury changes and resting/trying out players

[Cyril]

I see Mullan's come in as cover for Marler (if his noggin isn't right) now that Mako's out.

Isn't Mullan that really quick prop who chased down Hook a few years back? What's his form like for Wasps?

[ChequeredJersey]

Not that I think SL is perfect but thank the gods kingelderfield isn't a selector...

[Cyril]

Not that I think SL is perfect but thank the gods kingelderfield isn't a selector...

Yeah, it's not so much throwing the baby out with the bathwater as launching the poor b*stard into space!

[ChequeredJersey]

That's one issue, yes. The big one for me is a backrow lacking a resemblance of balance or any bench option who could feasibly add it and thus a pack that would get so owned at the breakdown I doubt we'd ever see the ball!

[ChequeredJersey]

Oh and dropping 4/5 of our best performers...

[kingelderfield]

Hi Cyril,

Honestly there is no reason to continue down this arid path. I just don't think Lancaster has a clue and as a passionate England fan I have to say it as I see it.

As far as I see it we keep making the same selectorial mistakes and are tactically inept.

[kingelderfield]

So who were 4/5 best performers?

[ChequeredJersey]

Brown
Launchbury
Dickson
Robshaw

With Hartley as the 5th (not in order)

Across both matches

[Cyril]

Hi Cyril,

Honestly there is no reason to continue down this arid path. I just don't think Lancaster has a clue and as a passionate England fan I have to say it as I see it.

As far as I see it we keep making the same selectorial mistakes and are tactically inept.

Don't get me wrong I've got reservations too, but anyone would think we'd just finished bottom of the 6Ns, lost the tour to Argentina and were 0 from 2 in the Autumn series.

There are issues with our style of play but plenty of these players are still quite green on an international level.

Just to pick four, what have Launchbury, Lawes, Robshaw and Brown done wrong exactly?

[GloriousEmpire]

Browns foot was in touch

[Cyril]

Browns foot was in touch

Actually, I think you'll find it was both feet.

[doctor_grey]

I see the All Blacks played in All White in Paris...

Hmm, I hadn't considered it but perhaps that's why we were so awful.

They played in all White!!!! How dare they... "only the English are allowed to wear white"!!!!

Now where did I hear something similar before??? How come there was no like for like outcry?

White has always been the change strip. Unlike some teams who choose an away to clash with the RWC host nations long established iconic game wear...

Or a cheap imitation in which the numbers fall off faster than the wearers tackles...

Or when the 'All Blacks' wore gray when they played France in the 2007 RWC?

[kingelderfield]

Brown played very well to the absolute limit of his ability, however Foden offeres more and has the greater ability to deliver at international level.

Launchbury again is an excellent player however he does not offer the aggression neccessary, especially if selected with Parling.

Dickson is not international standard, actually England only currently has Youngs who provides the required quality.

Robshaw is a quality player however he is not the leader we require, Lancasters continued obfuscation does Robshaw no credit, relieve him of the captaincy and let him be the player he really is.

[GloriousEmpire]

Worst one was when NZ wore the grey away strip against Scotland, whose "blue" was closer to the grey than the black. It was utterly impossible to tell who was who. Other than by guessing the team going backwards and conceding tries was scotland

[Cyril]

Traditionally wasn't it the home side that wore the 'change strip' in rugby (as opposed to football where it's an 'away strip')?

I know this isn't really the case now.

[Sponsored content]