England v New Zealand match thread

[quinsforever]

First topic message reminder :

2.30pm at Twickenham on Saturday.

Betfair has england 5:1 against. Sounds about right to me.

Are NZ wearing black this time? I hope so. don't think France or anyone else found the Haka quite the same performed in what looked like white gym T-shirts.

My prediction, fwiw (and i know that's not much), NZ to win by 6, england to dominate at scrums, lineouts 50:50, 60% possession England but Joubert tough (but predictable and consistent) on holding on means isolated possession gives NZ the scoring edge from penalties, and NZ classically more clinical with open/broken field possession.

Really looking forwards to it though.

Anyone going?

[Taylorman]

Because the world cup throws the cat amongst the pigeons for home and away (who changes for neutral grounds?) I believe its just alternate matches that they change, regardless of where they play. No big deal anyway.its not as if not wearing the usual black is going to be a de-motivating factor for the AB's is it? I mean theyre not that fickle...

[Bathman_in_London]

Yeah that's right Cyril, before it became just whenever Nike wanted to shift some purple tat...!

[Biltong]

The more I think about this game, the more I look forward to it, granted England has not been on fire yet, but this will be their third game of the AI's, I reckon they will have a good old go at the AB's, should be a good hard match.

[Taylorman]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/9387991/All-Blacks-out-to-make-a-statement

This is exactly what I'd expect from Hansen. The AB's are not about revenge as such, more about setting standards and meeting them, because if that happens, they win. An England win (or loss) is merely a by product of that.

Behind closed doors and when Hansen is looking for that final burst of team motivation (you know..the type that doesnt last as long as self motivation but is great for sending the troops over the wall) he just might dig out last years loss, but Frances effort last week will probably be more apt and relevant, hence his reference to it all week.

[Cyril]

The more I think about this game, the more I look forward to it, granted England has not been on fire yet, but this will be their third game of the AI's, I reckon they will have a good old go at the AB's, should be a good hard match.

Let's hope so, bilt!

It's England's last game for a few months so I want to at least see a good performance to tide me over until the 6Ns.

Nobody has really hit the ground running this Autumn yet (although Ireland's result looks pretty impressive - not seen the game).

[Alex_Germany]

Browns foot was in touch

Actually, I think you'll find it was both feet.

They're only in touch if the touch judge or ref says so.

[GloriousEmpire]

Browns foot was in touch

Actually, I think you'll find it was both feet.

They're only in touch if the touch judge or ref says so.

How convenient.

[Cyril]

Browns foot was in touch

Actually, I think you'll find it was both feet.

They're only in touch if the touch judge or ref says so.

That is true. Brown isn't the first, or I'm sure the last, to get away with it.

His twinkly toes afterwards was a joy to watch (as an England fan).

[Pal Joey]

No joy for me whatsoever, Cyril.
I would much rather see Cyd Charisse's twinkly toes... or legs partially dangling over the touchline.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

It's interesting that both teams are in a similar position of having one loss against their names in a run of wins. You get the feeling Shag has been sick of hearing about England when the only other "disappointment" was the match in Brisbane after two years after the RWC win. England similarly win all their games from SA but get one blip against Wales that gets all the attention.

But in a way that is the way it should be for the top teams. NZ reached their peak at Ellis Park but everyone reminds them of tge trough. The latter in the way is what drives the team and strings the wins together. It's not so much proving you're the best. People have short memories. SA came to Eden Park with the intention of showing who the number one team was (and not just the rankings to reinforce that) and Ellis Park was for many Bok fans a chance to avenge the Eden Park test and showed who should be number one. What it really is about is showing who is not the best.

Woods is rightly talking up his team saying teams should come to Twickenham fearing a loss. Two wins in a row against NZ would go a long way to proving that. That's what NZ is setting out to disprove rather than proving they're number one.

[Guest]

NH teams have a leg up because we always play them at home on rotation in the AIs. When was the last time the ABs played England in NZ, 2008. This will be the fifth game in a row played at twickers. They have more opportunity to topple the big SH teams under favorable home conditions. It's the way it is, I get it, just saying.

[nganboy]

Well ebop we get three goes at them in NZ next year so no probs about that. Mind you, we'll be rusty with no time together. Luckily they'll be tired.....

[kiakahaaotearoa]

France showed this year a one off test is easier to get up for than a 3 test series. I don't mind as it's ideal preparation to simulate RWC knockout games. I think a traditional tour with midweek games would be more meaningful but it is what it is and you have to take the best out of what this tour has to offer.

[Rugby Fan]

Are we there yet?

[BamBam]

Who is NZ's main lineout caller? Just wondering if Lawes lack of experience here could be exploited

[lostinwales]

hmmm. Mako out, Marler has a headache so touch and go, Corbs knees being assessed. Loose head is possibly the position where England has the greatest strength in depth but maybe not this time...

[ChequeredJersey]

Mullan will be ok, not sure who is 5 th choice though, Wood maybe?

[butterfingers]

I've been avoiding this thread as much as possible...

Someone please give me good news ahead of kick off!

[beshocked]

Matt Stevens? 

[ChequeredJersey]

Beshocked, you know the rules, no Saracens players allowed

[gregortree]

I've been avoiding this thread as much as possible...

Someone please give me good news ahead of kick off!

I'm waiting for the flu update, or Biltong's catering company arrival at the AB hotel.

[beshocked]

Chequeredjersey that's not the rule.

The rule is that Saracens players can only be picked for England due to either a) nepotism b) bias from Andy Farrell or in the case of Farrell Jr both.

Everyone knows that Andy Farrell is the true England coach who makes all the decision making and selection issues. Stuart Lancaster just follows his every decision.

It's also common knowledge that Andy Farrell bullies Mike Catt and forces his own backline tactics onto the team.

None of the other coaches should take the blame for any failings.

[Cowshot]

I'm waiting for the flu update

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24906783

...it's about... 

[HongKongCherry]

Mullan will be ok, not sure who is 5 th choice though, Wood maybe?

Unfortunately Wood is still banned after Burger headbutted his foot  

[Bathman_in_London]

Chequeredjersey that's not the rule.

The rule is that Saracens players can only be picked for England due to either a) nepotism b) bias from Andy Farrell or in the case of Farrell Jr both.

Everyone knows that Andy Farrell is the true England coach who makes all the decision making and selection issues. Stuart Lancaster just follows his every decision.

It's also common knowledge that Andy Farrell bullies Mike Catt and forces his own backline tactics onto the team.

None of the other coaches should take the blame for any failings.

At last you've seen the light!


I don't know if anyone saw, but there was a quote from Liam Messam saying 'we might avoid the Chinese restaurant opposite the hotel this year', so there probably won't be any help in that department this year...

[Cowshot]

Well, a summary of the build up from the coaches so far seems to be:

Hansen: All Blacks coming to get you! Wooo!

Lancaster: Play the team not the myth.

All pretty much standard at present.  

It is going to be an interesting game, if nothing else. New Zealand hot favourites and England stuttering at best and with serious doubts in areas. Maybe we can take them on up front and get some change...maybe we can match the halves...maybe. We do know that Hansen is trying with his usual skill to get a sense of mission going and he's using what he's got - we ARE the only side to beat them last year/this year/whatever even if it did take 15 men and a single celled organism to do it. I can't see us winning on paper, but I want to see us try and look as though we have some idea what we are doing. I'm interested in seeing how our defence stacks up because I can see us being carved in midfield and out wide and I want to see our pack play with some nous in the tight, the line and the loose.

With that however is the recognition that the ABs are a very good side and if they click and have one of those games I can see us getting a hammering and that's what I think Hansen wants: to gain a serious psychological ascendancy over this England side man on man, such that it affects future encounters.

Big game

[little_badger]

With Tuilagi now having had surgery and possibly 'out' for the 6 nations SL has to pick his back up outside centre and do it soon. Burrell covers 12, eastmond covers everything but who is the back up to Tuilagi, from the showing of the last 2 matches it ain't Tomkins!

[gregortree]

I'm waiting for the flu update

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24906783

...it's about... 

Biltong
did you see this ? Looks like your RSA catering team went to the wrong venue, in fact even the wrong football code.
Can you get them reassigned over to the AB hotel pronto ?

[Scrumpy]

SL can't play Tomkins again, can he?  

[lostinwales]

SL can't play Tomkins again, can he?  

Well he did actually put in a pretty handy shift in defense vs Australia. Problem is we want either someone who is a very competent all rounder or someone with a real X factor- enough to make the management overlook other weaknesses.

Where do we go? Joseph would have been ideal had he been in form. Be great to say to hell with it and play Eastmond but I am not sure if he is injured or not

[yappysnap]

Trinder, Daily or Walker.

[yappysnap]

In that order. With the way the rest if the team is settling in one noob at 13 isn't going to be the end of the world.

[Scrumpy]

SL can't play Tomkins again, can he?  

Well he did actually put in a pretty handy shift in defense vs Australia. Problem is we want either someone who is a very competent all rounder or someone with a real X factor- enough to make the management overlook other weaknesses.

Where do we go? Joseph would have been ideal had he been in form. Be great to say to hell with it and play Eastmond but I am not sure if he is injured or not

None of the Bath backs are in form due to the fact that every time they step onto the pitch the heavens open and the Forwards are a mean bunch and won't let them play.

I think Eastmonds is fit.

[Big]

New Zealand hot favourites and England stuttering at best and with serious doubts in areas. Maybe we can take them on up front and get some change...maybe we can match the halves...maybe.

There is a lot riding on this game for England. If they pull a performance out of the bag then the stuttering performances start to look like a team doing enough against limited opposition then cranking it up when needed. If they continue to stutter and lose badly they look like a team with fundamental flaws. I fear it's the latter but am hoping for the former.

From a brief foray into the new zealand rugby and news websites I get the impression they are hedging on the former. There is a sense that a team that can beat Aus and thrash Argentina without playing well is a decent team that will be hard to beat. Not sure whether that's just a way of hyping up the game, or if that's informed opinion. Given they are no mugs when it comes to rugby maybe they have a point, and I should be giving the current squad and coaches a bit more credit. It is one of those occasions where I'd love to be eating humble pie with regards to my criticism of the set up.

[gregortree]

Eastmond or Trinder both impress me at club level.
Neither is of the wrecking ball Manu type.
Trinder reminds me at times of the grace and speed of (younger) Guscott, only with more speed.
Eastmond is a speedy little dancer, reminiscent of Jason Robinson in my mind. I could imagine him dancing past some big hulking AB defenders.

[nobbled]

Trinder for me. Thought Eastmond was more of a 12?

[BamBam]

Eastmond could potentially be our version of the type of backs the Aussies seem to have in abundance, able to play at international level pretty much across the whole 3/4 line

[ChequeredJersey]

So was Tait. Trouble is, with too many the Aussies have no idea what back line to pick (I still think they've got it wrong, didn't help losing Beale and JOC and Giteau to various things though, surprised Speight hasn't been called up). And Tait was messed around a bit being a utility back, I think it was best for England by far as he is an excellent utility back but not good for him

[GloriousEmpire]

Reckon this storm will blow in around Saturday and feck things up royally.

[TrailApe]

Storm?

Monday 11 November—Sunday 17 November

A little bit of everything

This will be a week where the weather switches between cooler air coming down from Iceland and occasional bursts of milder air feeding up all the way from the Azores. The week will start off with a band of rain crossing the Country. This rain will continue in the southeast of England into Tuesday morning. It will become milder for a time too before cooler, brighter conditions over Scotland and Northern Ireland extend to all parts during Tuesday. The second half of the week will be characterised by cold and windy weather over the northern half of the UK with showers, falling as snow over the mountains. There will also be gales, possibly severe in the northwest on Wednesday night. It will be a quieter period of weather in the south, mostly dry, breezy at times with a touch of frost at nights and even a few fog patches. Over the weekend, the weather will turn more unsettled with rain and stronger winds in the north, extending southwards across all parts.

Now I know you have been in the South East for some time but please don't get into the SE Media 'End of the World' panic because it's going to be 'unsettled with rain'.

Or were you speaking of the metaphorical storm?

[GloriousEmpire]

Was just wondering exactly what the media was referring to actually.

They said it was going to be a black day and things would get broken.

Something about a new hurricane hitting Britain. I wonder if Ardie Savea will be on the bench?

[lostinwales]

Well at least they will have the off season to recover...

[jamesandimac]

Could manu's injury force Lancaster to consider including a centre as the 23rd squad member purely for exposure? And If so who? Out of the current batch could we consider Burrell as that option? His form certainly warrants it, personally I think he could be quite a good foil for 12trees if Lancaster had the guts to play him. I know people will say he's a 12 however the way the Saints use their 12s is similar to how England use tuilagi. Obviously theres defence to consider but that's only really ever off first phase and as a professional it shouldn't take him too long to adapt. Thoughts?

[jamesandimac]

He would certainly provide impact off the bench for the backline

[Taylorman]

The English midfield will be Englands downfall this weekend. Last year it was the primary reason for their ability to breakthrough the line, mainly Manu T and Barritt. Without those two its back to pick and go stuff. Cant see the English opening up the game because of that. Love the confidence of Brown and 36 and also the thinking that the AB scrum can be made advantage of. I think theyll be rather surprised.

[GloriousEmpire]

Yes Taylorman, after deliberately being gash all year. The All Blacks scrum will wipe the floor with England.

[Rugby Fan]

I'm a bit surprised at how few All Black supporters are predicting they will smash us. I suppose that makes sense. No matter how confident you might feel, its probably wiser to talk up a side's challenge if they beat you last time.

Perhaps the best way to describe England supporters right now is hopeful but fearful.

[GloriousEmpire]

I think England have come a long way from the laughing stock of over resourced, self assured, tub thumping excuse makers they were a few years back. It'll be a tough match. England shade the tight, NZ the loose. We have the finishers but not necessarily the platform, England the contrary.

[quinsforever]

even when we are gash, people are still right to be wary (but not fearful). 2007 RWC being a prime example. england could get beaten by a lot, but they will never roll over or make it easy on NZ or Oz at Twickenham.

[BamBam]

Corbs, Yarde and Wade are all out.

Oh goody

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