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England v New Zealand match thread

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Post by quinsforever Sun 10 Nov 2013, 10:12 pm

First topic message reminder :

2.30pm at Twickenham on Saturday.

Betfair has england 5:1 against. Sounds about right to me.

Are NZ wearing black this time? I hope so. don't think France or anyone else found the Haka quite the same performed in what looked like white gym T-shirts.

My prediction, fwiw (and i know that's not much), NZ to win by 6, england to dominate at scrums, lineouts 50:50, 60% possession England but Joubert tough (but predictable and consistent) on holding on means isolated possession gives NZ the scoring edge from penalties, and NZ classically more clinical with open/broken field possession.

Really looking forwards to it though.

Anyone going?

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Post by Toadfish Wed 13 Nov 2013, 7:49 am

The daily mail is a piece of shiitake so I won't even bother commenting on it but I do read the telegraph and mick cleary is a notorious wum (who isn't English). If you want more evidence check out his article the other day which was called something like 'why the welsh should be more like the English'. Don't really know why they keep him on payroll but it's probably because he increases traffic on the website. Probably the same reason some of the wums are allowed to continue on here!

Anyway can't wait for the game! Can't say I'm that confident but am counting down the minutes till I can crack that first lager on the train to twickers. Let's hope it's a great game!

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Post by Guest Wed 13 Nov 2013, 8:02 am

Yeah ngan, definitely not great, just ok and holding their own amongst weak opposition. I bet that lions team of the 70s was awesome, how many games did they win? 3 in a row or was it 2?

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Post by Hood83 Wed 13 Nov 2013, 8:23 am

GE called the annual 'Kiwi's are whingers' article in the Daily Fail. It's what our more right-wing trash papers do. I absolutely hate it. Almost as much as the interviewers after games where England has won - 'So Greg, is this the end of the road for Oz?' 'England really gave you a humping, is there a problem in your camp?' etc etc.

Taylorman, I have to say, I really don't think you need to worry about Lancaster being an astute coach - he isn't, at all. Things you can expect from us this weekend:

- No set plays off first phase ball
- No chips over or through the line to keep the defence honest
- No players hitting the line at pace
- 400 players contesting the breakdown, regardless of the opposition presence there
- No running from our 9, 10 or 12 unless under extreme duress.

I think an astute coach would have worked out these aspects as a significant problem by now, he'd also have worked out that Tomkins is not even close to international class, nor will he ever be. I'm also worried by our injuries - it would make no difference to the result maybe but would have been good to see Corbs and Manu there and our best against the ABs best.

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Post by GloriousEmpire Wed 13 Nov 2013, 8:38 am

There is an odd one out in that list he provides. But it's not McCaws All Blacks. Frankly it's horse shoit and flies in the face of all abundantly obvious evidence.

One thing that irked me last week was Stuart Barnes reading out selected excerpts from dodgy NZ media outlets with no context in order to paint a hugely arrogant picture of NZ to the plethora of viewers. "I've been reading the NZ media this week! Doing my research!" He chipped "We are th most dominant team in the history of the world, say the kiwis, that's what they're saying..." Wrong and irresponsible to do that i would suggest.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Nov 2013, 8:42 am

How come you've changed tact GE to a more reasonable poster again?

I'm really worried about our prop situtation. I have to confess i haven't seen much of Mullan or Wood (if Marler too is deemed unfit). Anyone know how good they are?

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Post by Toadfish Wed 13 Nov 2013, 9:21 am

.


Last edited by Toadfish on Wed 13 Nov 2013, 9:23 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Double post)

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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 13 Nov 2013, 9:21 am

I don't think anyone's blaming the media. We all have people specifically designed to stir up opinion. NZ management will be upset that their whiteboard propaganda was leaked out to the press and Rowntree will not like the press are quoting him that they viewed the French tapes and the NZ pack are there for the taking.

The former is nonsense designed to get the players thinking about what legacy they're defending and where their game needs to be to do that. It wasn't intended to be made public and the fact it has is embarrassing as GE points out it's unnecessary cobblers.

The latter is or should be frustrating as irrespective of its veracity that information should be kept to yourself to motivate your players rather than rile up the opposition pack, especially given the injuries to the English pack.

Three more days of this and I'll doubt it's the last of these stories. For us fans I think it's harmless gash but inevitably some of it stirs you up. But that just shows you the match is important to both sides and a lot is riding on it. Wouldn't have it any other way. Games against Japan are good for sponsors. These games are for the players and their fans.

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 13 Nov 2013, 9:48 am

Hood83 wrote: It's what our more right-wing trash papers do. I absolutely hate it. Almost as much as the interviewers after games where England has won - 'So Greg, is this the end of the road for Oz?' 'England really gave you a humping, is there a problem in your camp?' etc etc.

Taylorman, I have to say, I really don't think you need to worry about Lancaster being an astute coach - he isn't, at all. Things you can expect from us this weekend:

- No set plays off first phase ball
- No chips over or through the line to keep the defence honest
- No players hitting the line at pace
- 400 players contesting the breakdown, regardless of the opposition presence there
- No running from our 9, 10 or 12 unless under extreme duress.

I think an astute coach would have worked out these aspects as a significant problem by now, he'd also have worked out that Tomkins is not even close to international class, nor will he ever be. I'm also worried by our injuries - it would make no difference to the result maybe but would have been good to see Corbs and Manu there and our best against the ABs best.
Tha Daily Mail is RIGHT WING?  and TRASH?  Clearly you are not an admirer of Shakespearean authorship and quiet, moderate politics?  (little joke)

No one would need to read anything to expect what you are telling Taylor.  The lack of creativity is pretty stark.  Kick to the corners and defend like mothers isn't a recipe for success.  Goes back to wondering if we really have it right in the back line, despite the injuries and lug-ins.  These are still high-quality pros.  Still need to take the ball at pace running forwards.  Let's see.

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Post by Scrumpy Wed 13 Nov 2013, 10:01 am

I think we're going to get hammered , anything less than that I'll be happy. ish!
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Post by gregortree Wed 13 Nov 2013, 10:15 am

GloriousEmpire wrote:There is an odd one out in that list he provides. But it's not McCaws All Blacks. Frankly it's horse shoit and flies in the face of all abundantly obvious evidence.

One thing that irked me last week was Stuart Barnes reading out selected excerpts from dodgy NZ media outlets with no context in order to paint a hugely arrogant picture of NZ to the plethora of viewers. "I've been reading the NZ media this week! Doing my research!" He chipped "We are th most dominant team in the history of the world, say the kiwis, that's what they're saying..." Wrong and irresponsible to do that i would suggest.
Well in the history of the professional era and mostly at IRB No1 spot for this period.
I do not object to NZ claiming those bragging rights. Don't see it as wrong to (modestly) hold that view.
Barnes.. well... he is within his rights as a scribbler to point out that this is what NZers do believe, and with reason on their side frankly.
It's all great grist to the build up mill.

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Post by Geordie Wed 13 Nov 2013, 10:24 am

Wow didnt see Corbs was out again. I have serious concerns for him now.

Hopefully marler can overcome his concussion as i have no problems with him v the AB's. I think he's improving quietly and gets unfair criticism.
Mullan is a decent option on the bench considering he's 4th choice.

Concerned that Yarde and Wade havent recovered...but then again if we play like we did in the second half v Argentina it'll be irrelevant who we have in the backs.

We need to come out of the blocks like the first half on Saturday ...and continue that for 80 mins. Because we know the AB's are going to do that.

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Post by hugehandoff Wed 13 Nov 2013, 10:38 am

Last year both Corbs and Manu were key figures in our winning performance. It would have been an uphill task with them, but now it is looking very dodgy. Long term it is good for Marler to play them, but we do need our best players fit and on form if we want to make Twickenham a fortress again. Another reprieve for Ashton - lucky boy or maybe not once the game is actually played.

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Post by Geordie Wed 13 Nov 2013, 10:46 am

I agree we need our best players fit and firing...but with regards to Corbs the more gametme Marler and Vunipola get the better as i genuinely have concerns over his future...

If we play like we did in the first half on Saturday and continue that for the full match then we'll give them a good game. To beat these teams you need high intensity, pace and power at the breakdown etc. We've shown we can do that...but only sporadically...we need to show an 80 minuter now!!

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Post by thomh Wed 13 Nov 2013, 11:06 am

ebop wrote:Uh oh, Rowntree has just admitted the ABs are there for the taking. Seems like the poms really believe in themselves. I'm sure the ABs will be amused at all this trash talk. This is the 4th 'we can beat the ABs' articles I've read. Quite funny. You never hear the ABs trying to convince themselves that they'll win a game.

Might be something to do with the fact that they're always ranked no.1. No-one ever bothers asking them if they reckon they can win a game.

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Post by Geordie Wed 13 Nov 2013, 11:11 am

Many teams are beaten mentally v the AB's before even walking out on the pitch.

I see nothing wrong with showing that you have a little bit of confidence..and that you're going to take it to the AB's.

Or are they the gods of rugby on Mount Olympus and noone is allowed to dare challenge / have a go at them??

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Post by BamBam Wed 13 Nov 2013, 11:14 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Many teams are beaten mentally v the AB's before even walking out on the pitch.

I see nothing wrong with showing that you have a little bit of confidence..and that you're going to take it to the AB's.

Or are they the gods of rugby on Mount Olympus and noone is allowed to dare challenge / have a go at them??
I thought that was us?

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Post by Geordie Wed 13 Nov 2013, 11:18 am

Ah just annoys me Bam Bam, we show a bit of fight and its Trash talk, arrogance, etc...

Whats Rowntree going to say..."well erm actually no we're just here to make up the numbers and be a training practice for the AB's...cos we dont expect to get anything out of the game!!!"

England have shown huge inconsistency...but there is definately a chance if they can put in a performance they are certainly capable over 80 mins....

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Post by Cowshot Wed 13 Nov 2013, 11:26 am

Big wrote:
Cowshot wrote:

New Zealand hot favourites and England stuttering at best and with serious doubts in areas. Maybe we can take them on up front and get some change...maybe we can match the halves...maybe.

There is a lot riding on this game for England.  If they pull a performance out of the bag then the stuttering performances start to look like a team doing enough against limited opposition then cranking it up when needed.  If they continue to stutter and lose badly they look like a team with fundamental flaws.  I fear it's the latter but am hoping for the former.  

From a brief foray into the new zealand rugby and news websites I get the impression they are hedging on the former.  There is a sense that a team that can beat Aus and thrash Argentina without playing well is a decent team that will be hard to beat.  Not sure whether that's just a way of hyping up the game, or if that's informed opinion.  Given they are no mugs when it comes to rugby maybe they have a point, and I should be giving the current squad and coaches a bit more credit.  It is one of those occasions where I'd love to be eating humble pie with regards to my criticism of the set up.  
I've got my concerns too, but it has to be admitted that Lancaster has done pretty well overall. I've not agreed with all his decisions but he's a lot closer to what's really going on than I am and knows his business certainly within the limits of his experience. Whether the real top flight is a step beyond him we have yet to see I think.

Now Corbs is out I fear the maybes are stacking up a bit too much for England. We're moving into miracle territory now. Funny that the AB supporters on here appear to be getting more nervous as well!


On Dan Carter maybe not quite having it on his return from serious injury - I'm afraid you very often see that. Geordan Murphy after breaking his leg lost a little something; or nowadays Toby Flood after snapping his Achilles I don't think has quite had the cutting edge he once did. It's psychological as much as physical and I'm sorry to see it in any player.

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Post by beshocked Wed 13 Nov 2013, 11:28 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Many teams are beaten mentally v the AB's before even walking out on the pitch.

I see nothing wrong with showing that you have a little bit of confidence..and that you're going to take it to the AB's.

Or are they the gods of rugby on Mount Olympus and noone is allowed to dare challenge / have a go at them??


Completely agree with this.

I think the South Africans have that effect to some extent too because teams look at the monsters they have and go "£$% I have to tackle them?

Belief is so important. Mentally wise I think that's where England and France hold the edge over their fellow NH sides. They have more wins vs the SH sides because they have more belief and because they have more belief they win more matches.

In a sense it's why Italy have struggled to beat England - they have got close quite a few times but have not yet picked up that elusive win.

Some sides have the weight of expectation around their neck e.g. like Wales. Wales are undoubtedly a decent side but under Gatland only have 1 win vs the big three yet have been generally effective against NH sides.

England know they can beat the big three because they've done it before. It's not like trying to beat an opponent you haven't in over 50 years.

NZ have that spell over certain sides. Wales have no fears about playing the NH sides they've been there, done that. The confidence and familiarity is there. They know how to beat England,France etc but the big three.....

England have shown a knack to compete with the SH sides even when not at their best. No one would say England were at their best vs Australia yet they won. I should add Australia weren't at their best either but it's still a win.

It's also why a side like France pushes NZ so hard. They have no fear and NZ know that. NZ arguably give France too much respect. They are in my opinion less relaxed,less confident because they know what France could potentially do (when this happens doubts can creep in).

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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 13 Nov 2013, 11:41 am

I didn't see France play like they did last week in the 6N. I agree the reason we respect them is that they have claimed the most wins over NZ from the NH. But I also think people make too much of the bogey team. If the 6N teams had to play France four times this year would you bet your house on winning all four games. The only reason I would is because we've already beaten them four times.

NZ pays respect to every team. That's why we've only ever lost to 5 test sides and the BaaBaas and the Lions. But the preparation is different for sides who are capable of winning simply because as you point out those sides don't fear the ABs like other teams because they have tasted success.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 13 Nov 2013, 11:54 am

ebop wrote:Ha, that is hilarious!

The poms are constructing a nice little rod for their backs with all this huffing and puffing. Shame we don't play them twice as they'd surely go No 1.
Why are you under the belief that the English are prisoners of her Majesty?

We're not. God Save the Queen.

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Post by beshocked Wed 13 Nov 2013, 11:55 am

kiakahaaotearoa they are seen as a bogey team because they cause you more problems than any other NH side. They seem to make you sweat the most. They also have the tendency to raise their game against NZ unlike vs other sides. E.g. in the world cup in particular.

England have never beaten NZ in a world cup but France have. Admittedly England's best team the 2003 lot didn't get a chance to face NZ.

Remember NZ are the no 1 side. They are expected to beat everyone.

You talk about giving equal respect but it's natural for you to see certain sides as bigger threats.

England and France are surely bigger games than Ireland,Wales and Scotland for NZ.

It's no coincidence you are facing England and France.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:00 pm

Scrumpy wrote:I think we're going to get hammered , anything less than that I'll be happy. ish!
I love no pressure games! I'm fully expecting England to get hammered as well, but at least if it does happen, I won't have a feeling of crushing disappointment.

And the English football team, and the English rugby league team, and the English cricket team - they can all soften the blow of defeat over the next week.

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Post by sirtidychris Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:03 pm

WAAA we are going to get jolly rogered on saturday, sadly i feel lancaster is going to get his nuts chewed off by the media and 'fans' but TBH beating a fully fit and revenge driven all blacks with serious momentum is a monumental task.

I hoped it would be chucking it down on saturday and players such as Corbisiero, Barrit, Tuilagi, Yarde or Wade would be avaliable and after a bottle of Theakstons Old Peculiar and a packet of cheese and onion I would be confident of us being in shout of a win....but sadly not. Our backline is very inexperienced and there are big question marks over either the current form or whether they are international quality of our 9,10,12,13 and whatever shirt ashton wears. Our main attacking threat of targetting the set piece has been gelded by the loss Corbs and i wouldn't be surprised to 40 points on the board against us.

I'll still be cheering the boys in white on and screaming at Farrell and co for being so pants at creating anything but hay ho, 2 wins out of 3 is not a bad return for the AI's.

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Post by Cowshot Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:09 pm

God Save the Queen.
Hear hear! She's given 60 years of duty and service and still counting. Very proud of her.clap 

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Post by Scrumpy Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:10 pm

To be honest most English fans are under no illusions, NZ should win on Saturday as they are the No1 team in the world and England are struggling to make any system work in the backs due to injuries and such like.
 
But does that mean us as England fans can't dream or talk up our team’s chances? Lets face it last year was unexpected but boy did it feel good after (not so good on Sunday morning! vomit ) so lets keep everything crossed as on paper our Forwards should give us some foot hold in the game and who knows a dodgy Ref call, a player playing out of their skin or strange bounce of the ball could tip it in England's favour, again. Wink
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:16 pm

sirtidychris wrote:I hoped it would be chucking it down on saturday and players such as Corbisiero, Barrit, Tuilagi, Yarde or Wade would be avaliable and after a bottle of Theakstons Old Peculiar and a packet of cheese and onion I would be confident of us being in shout of a win
Good call! Ale

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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:17 pm

Beshocked, we have played France in 87, 99, 07 and twice in 2011 with a playoff in 99.

That's two losses from 6 games (though the playoff can be rightly seen as the game that no one wants nor cares about). Australia have played us in 91, 03 and 11. They're two from three. SA 95 are one from one... I think.

Frankly they're all bogey teams those feckers. Very Happy 

My only dispute is that we pay France too much respect. The games they've beaten us they have all deserved. 55 tests with 12 losses and one draw whereas for England it's 35 tests and 7 losses and one draw. You could argue if England equalled the number of tests against NZ with France they could move ahead of France. As it stands they're about even and the respect shown them is the same. How other teams fare against England and France. It's how they fare against NZ that sees the preparation change.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:18 pm

England heavily written off, facing a much superior team, whilst struggling with injury, and a weak back-line that doesn't look capable of creating much. The only positives are the forwards, a reliable goal-kicker, and a decent defence.

Where have I heard that before? Oh yes....

Against Australia in the 2007 world cup.

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Post by Cowshot Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:19 pm

I'm feeling now we've got as much chance as we had last year - ie not much. And we won last year! So it isn't over 'til it's over. And boy I hope we aren't praying for the final whistle. Unless we're protecting a one point lead. boxing 

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Post by gregortree Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:22 pm

We needed the very best of English players, playing at the top of their game, plus the best of luck.
So far we are looking like 0/3 of these 3 key ingredients.
Even the flu/ novovirus piece of luck seems to have deserted us...
so my best hope is for a decent performance and a dignified losing margin.
Hope also the ref doesn't take against us (a la Walsh)

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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:43 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah just annoys me Bam Bam, we show a bit of fight and its Trash talk, arrogance, etc...

Whats Rowntree going to say..."well erm actually no we're just here to make up the numbers and be a training practice for the AB's...cos we dont expect to get anything out of the game!!!"

England have shown huge inconsistency...but there is definately a chance if they can put in a performance they are certainly capable over 80 mins....
There are two ways of looking at it. Rowntree is looking for positives and he is absolutely right to target the forwards where England can assert some dominance. It's one thing to know that and it's another thing to let your opponent know you know that. The question is this is hardly a revelation. The players or management aren't stupid. They know where they stand.

Take Gatland though. He stirs up a lot of attention. Normally players or coaches resort to bland soundbites fearing that expressing bare truths about a side might motivate them to a higher level of performance. I don't have a problem with saying it as it is. Take the comments made by Healy in the last Lions test in Australia in 2001, if the opposition raises their performance in that specific area hindsight will turn on you and bite whoever said it on the bum.

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Post by Mr Bounce Wed 13 Nov 2013, 12:46 pm

Marler gets ok'd for the game, then goes off in the first minute after a particular nasty tackle to the beard. Matt Mullan comes on, has the game of his life, single-handedly destroys the AB scrum and scores two tries, one under the post in the last minute to win the game 27-24.

Every Prop's dream. Ain't gonna happen, but imagine the headlines... Laugh

NZ by 15+ points, sadly for us English.

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Post by Cowshot Wed 13 Nov 2013, 1:25 pm

That England would hope to get an edge up front is hardly a revelation and as you say coaches and players aren't stupid. Well, not THAT stupid. Most of them. Supporters and newspapers on the other hand...well, we just had a clear case of some Don Quixotes setting up windmills and tilting away.

Thing is, Corbisiero had shown some real signs of being a truly offensive weapon and IF we were going to beat the ABs certainly one of the few things I felt I could realistically hope for was that our tight 5 could do some damage. I still hope we'll manage parity or maybe even better, but one of the cutting edges has gone. Marler - I hope no chances are taken with brain damage.

Still, one good thing coming out of this for England is we are getting a look at a lot of talented players. I think Twelvetrees has some potential at this level and would like to see a Twelvetrees/Tuilagi centre pairing in the future. Matt Mullan I know zilch about but looks like he'll be starting at LH. He has at least got a cap.


Last edited by Cowshot on Wed 13 Nov 2013, 2:15 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

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Post by gregortree Wed 13 Nov 2013, 1:27 pm

Cowshot
would like to see a Twelvetrees/Tuilagi centre pairing in the future
+1 from me

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Post by Geordie Wed 13 Nov 2013, 1:48 pm

Marler will start. And he's a good LH who with gametime will continue to improve nicely...critical given Corbs injury problems. Mullan again is a good LH who should have been involved years ago...remember his famous tackle on james Hook...

Ieuan evans..."thats a loosehead prop!!!"

We just have to play 80 mins to remotely have a chance.

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Post by jamesandimac Wed 13 Nov 2013, 2:03 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Marler will start. And he's a good LH who with gametime will continue to improve nicely...critical given Corbs injury problems. Mullan again is a good LH who should have been involved years ago...remember his famous tackle on james Hook...

Ieuan evans..."thats a loosehead prop!!!"

We just have to play 80 mins to remotely have a chance.
Geordie, I agree Marler is good player and went well last week and in the summer. The pack, bar Corbs being out, is pretty much what everyone wants. I can see the pack, providing they come out like they did last sat in the first half, really putting the ABs pack on the back foot and causing them no end of problems, not only in the set piece but also in the tight exchanges and at the breakdown.

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Post by Taylorman Wed 13 Nov 2013, 2:09 pm

Must say I'd expected more bite than this since throwing up some of those stupid headlines.

Agree a Tuilagi 36 combo would be interesting as well. I've a feeling 36 will be targeted this weekend and it seems midfield defences have so much influence on a sides performance these days. Fofana and co tested us last week and Englands key to winning last year was largely due to the midfield slashing holes after getting good ball. Based on that and Englands injuries the midfield will be pressured I'd sat.

We can't ignore the fact that England havnt won 9 from 10 or so by doing nothing and I still say BL has a lot to do with their success- especially in terms of preparation of the walk on side on the day.

The tensions going to get worse so I wish the match would hurry up so we can all get back to normal...good luck to the English side...and lets hope the match lives up to its likely huge billing...and that some vulture circling reporters dont rob fans of a very enjoyable match.

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Post by kingelderfield Wed 13 Nov 2013, 2:12 pm

gregortree wrote:Cowshot
would like to see a Twelvetrees/Tuilagi centre pairing in the future
+1 from me
Really like Twelvetrees, and agree the future should be Twelvetrees/Tuilagi.

Right now as a fix I would play Twelvetrees with Burrell - Twelvetrees due to his ability and Burrell on form even though this has been playing IC.

I could also see Burrell and either Eastmond, Trinder or Joseph.

The Burrell Tuilagi option should be saved for special Samoan occasions only.

Sadly, and I'm trying to remain open minded, I have yet to see enough from Tomkins (at any time since his code conversion) to suggest he is or will become an international Union centre.

To my mind Barrett would be a retrograde step.

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Post by Cowshot Wed 13 Nov 2013, 2:14 pm

Lol. That was Mullan was it? He's going to have to play a stormer - as are all...! Marler I still think of as potential but not quite there. Perhaps unfairly. Not even completely sure about Corbisiero yet, just that he's the nearest to the finished article we have in that position.

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Post by quinsforever Wed 13 Nov 2013, 2:21 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:There is an odd one out in that list he provides. But it's not McCaws All Blacks. Frankly it's horse shoit and flies in the face of all abundantly obvious evidence.

One thing that irked me last week was Stuart Barnes reading out selected excerpts from dodgy NZ media outlets with no context in order to paint a hugely arrogant picture of NZ to the plethora of viewers. "I've been reading the NZ media this week! Doing my research!" He chipped "We are th most dominant team in the history of the world, say the kiwis, that's what they're saying..." Wrong and irresponsible to do that i would suggest.
selective quotation of media? Whistle 

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Post by Cowshot Wed 13 Nov 2013, 2:25 pm

Yep, I'm concerned you can carve us up in the backs. One of the reasons I was/am so keen we take you on up front. I know the ABs and SA can win with less territory and possession than has been usual, but taking as much ball away as possible can only help. And though out backs have shown signs of defensive weakness, they've also showed some ability to attack themselves. Hey ho. Ifs and buts and maybes...we'll see come the weekend, but I'm definitely fearing the worst and hoping for the best.

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Post by Geordie Wed 13 Nov 2013, 2:33 pm

Yes mate that was MUllan...he'll not let us down.

Marler is still a work in progress. I think the problem we had was that both our LH covers behind Corbs were more athletic carrying types. Thats fine at prem and lower age groups but at this level they've had to seriously work on their scrummaging. They are both improving and id say in the scrummaging department Marler is ahead of Mako.

The only thing about Marler is that he doesnt look the biggest of props..isnt he around 17.5 stone, which isnt actually huge for a prop, when you consider Corbs is up around the 19st range i believe.

Dont forget though its not JUST the props...second rows are hugely important in the scrums aswell. A good scrummaging second Row is invaluable...and to be honest im not 100% sure on how Lawes, Parling and Launchbury are in those situations...though there certainly doesnt appear to be a major weakness in that part of their game. These are the areas the likes of Louis Deacon, and Attwood make differences. More bulk and power..
They said when Simon Shaw was in the scrum it was like having two men pushing...

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Post by Hound of Harrow Wed 13 Nov 2013, 2:34 pm

There is another headline in the online Telegraph...

"Read gunning for revenge"...

But not once is revenge, or anything remotely close to it, mentioned in the article.
Headscratch

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Post by beshocked Wed 13 Nov 2013, 2:41 pm

I just hope that 36 and Tomkins can handle Nonu and Smith.

It's quite clear NZ will target the centres.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 13 Nov 2013, 2:45 pm

Taylorman wrote:We can't ignore the fact that England havnt won 9 from 10 or so by doing nothing and I still say BL has a lot to do with their success- especially in terms of preparation of the walk on side on the day.
I'm sure the answer is blindingly obvious and I'll feel stupid for asking, but it's doing my head in: who's BL?

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Post by Geordie Wed 13 Nov 2013, 2:48 pm

Well Beshocked, either way at least now they'll know whats required..two young inexperienced guys and they'll have faced Australia and New Zealand...two off the best...and they have 1 victory under their belt too boot.

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Post by beshocked Wed 13 Nov 2013, 2:53 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Taylorman wrote:We can't ignore the fact that England havnt won 9 from 10 or so by doing nothing and I still say BL has a lot to do with their success- especially in terms of preparation of the walk on side on the day.
I'm sure the answer is blindingly obvious and I'll feel stupid for asking, but it's doing my head in: who's BL?
Must be a typo. I think he means SL - Stuart Lancaster.

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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 13 Nov 2013, 2:56 pm

BL is Bartholomew Lancaster. He was teased at school so changed his name to Stuart. After the Simpsons he foolishly thought his name was cool again but people started giving him wedgies and Nelson ha-has so Stuart it remained. I really need some fresh air.

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Post by gregortree Wed 13 Nov 2013, 3:06 pm

Kiakahaaotearoa ?
are you named after a volcano or something ?
At my old school in London that name would have been a wedgie target.
606 some funny old user names do pop up.

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