England v New Zealand match thread

[quinsforever]

First topic message reminder :

2.30pm at Twickenham on Saturday.

Betfair has england 5:1 against. Sounds about right to me.

Are NZ wearing black this time? I hope so. don't think France or anyone else found the Haka quite the same performed in what looked like white gym T-shirts.

My prediction, fwiw (and i know that's not much), NZ to win by 6, england to dominate at scrums, lineouts 50:50, 60% possession England but Joubert tough (but predictable and consistent) on holding on means isolated possession gives NZ the scoring edge from penalties, and NZ classically more clinical with open/broken field possession.

Really looking forwards to it though.

Anyone going?

[blackcanelion]

To be fair the feedback here is that the British media is relentless in it's questioning of anyone associated with NZ rugby this week. My understanding is they have a few basic questions:
1. is this the best All Black team ever
2. are they out for revenge for last year
3. how good is this English side
4. Who do you think will win this weekend
5. What do England have to do to win

If you read/listen to the interviews with this in mind it's not going to sound as bad. Generally the answer is going to be:
1. One of the best or the best (not surprising given their current record)
2. Yes, they remember defeats more than victories
3. Good, they have only lost 1 game
4. NZ
5. Play simple direct rugby compete at the set piece and breakdown and look to slow the game down.

[doctor_grey]

Worst rugby name ever has to be Carmichael Hunt. Who preferred his first name to be spelled with a K on the abbreviated team sheet list.

Never heard of him. he play on Bolivia?
Is this a real name or a joke like the one from the old movie, calling a restaurant to page Mike Hunt. That was a real movie, by the way...................Porkies!

[blackcanelion]

Worst rugby name ever has to be Carmichael Hunt. Who preferred his first name to be spelled with a K on the abbreviated team sheet list.

Never heard of him. he play on Bolivia?  
Is this a real name or a joke like the one from the old movie, calling a restaurant to page Mike Hunt.  That was a real movie, by the way...................Porkies!

NZ born Australian rugby league player (played four years State of O and 3 years for Australia) now playing ARL. Played rugby as a kid and for Bairitz in 2010.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3AOeOtIohg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tMaPoyNukQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyNe787Nj44

Probably a more complete cross code player that Izzy Folau.

[doctor_grey]

OK thanks.  I don't follow League.  I barely have enough time to follow one sport, and then a few of the American ones since I am over here in America.  So I really don't know any League players.

[Taylorman]

Sonny Bill?

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Andy Farrell? Phil McKracken?

[Taylorman]

Seen much of our Oklahoma city Thunders Steven Adams in the NBA doc? Hes the 7.0' brother of Val Adams who's won a couple of Olympic Golds...and went to my school!

[beshocked]

And Corbs to a degree. Really worth while rushing him back for Argie wasn't it  

The problem with Corbisiero is that he seems to be injured far too frequently.

I think Mako's injury might be down to a lack of rest. The bloke had basically played nonstop rugby for a year.


Also have you noticed how often players who went on Lion's tours get injured.........

[BamBam]

Team is out. One change from Saturday, with Dan Cole back in

England XV: Brown, Ashton, Tomkins, Twelvetrees, Foden, Farrell, Dickson; Marler, Hartley, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Wood, Robshaw, Vunipola

[Scrumpy]

Hmm...

[beshocked]

Stuart Lancaster loves full backs.

[BamBam]

Bench - T Youngs, Mullan, Wilson, Parling, Morgan, B Youngs, Flood, Goode

Impact galore

[Tiger/Chief]

As expected! With 4 of my 1st choice backs injured the only complaint is with Dickson over Youngs and Tompkins over Burrell

[beshocked]

Bambam I think Morgan and both Youngs can make a positive impact. Perhaps Flood too.

Even I question the selection of Goode on the bench.

Certainly doesn't seem to be much grunt in the front five on the bench if the scrum battle doesn't go as we would like.

Tiger/Chief please get it right. It's Tomkins, not Tompkins.

Tompkins is a young England U20s player.

[Scrumpy]

I was hopeing for a few changes in the backs to be honest, Feel sorry for Wilson didn't do anything wrong imo but unlike Ashton he has nothing on SL! Ben Morgan deserved to start over Billy too.

[beshocked]

Scrumpy surely you wouldn't want Wilson starting on the wing?

Doesn't really matter who starts at 8 - both are excellent options IMO.

Same with Wilson and Cole at 3. Someone has to be benched.

Tigers chief do you genuinely think it would be smart to play Burrell out of position in his first cap for England vs NZ, the best side in the world?

If Burrell was to play in the AIs it should have been in one of the earlier matches.

[Mad for Chelsea]

Wilson didn't do much wrong (though conceded the odd penalty at the scrum), but don't think he did enough to make the shirt his TBH. No surprises really, with the injuries we have this was always going to be the team.

Goode is in there simply because he's had much more time training with the team and their systems than the alternatives. Remember Wade and Yarde were first choice on the wings (had they not been injured) so no other winger has trained with the squad. You could say they've now had a week to change that since the Argie game but I don't think making wholesale changes in the final week preparation for such a big game with all the disruptions they've already had is such a good idea, so while personally I wouldn't have picked Goode, but I do see where they're coming from.

I do disagree with BamBam about the bench though, think Youngs, Wilson, Morgan, Youngs and Flood provide plenty of impact. I also think the term "impact" is overused at times. The impact comes from fresh legs on the field, and sometimes you don't necessarily want gamechangers on the bench anyway (otherwise we should stick Cips on there).

Really, with the current injury situation this was always going to be the team. i don't mind Foden on the wing for this one, NZ have tended to kick a lot in recent times so having two FBs on the pitch isn't a bad thing IMO.

[mystiroakey]

I couldn't work out if BamBam was being serious or joking.

Morgan,flood and B youngs are top impact players. All 3 can change our style dramatically and are close to first team players anyway

[alfie]

Don't have one now but it's been a while since I had one. I was referring to the politically incorrectly named dog in the Dambusters along with a Basil Fawlty reference.

Ah the dog ...actually watched the Dambusters again a few years back and was rather appalled to note that someone had gone in and overdubbed the soundtrack so that the unfortunate animal was referred to as "Trigger"

I know , I know ...but it just seemed odd to be changing someone's name fifty odd years after their death ; even if it was a dog.

[hugehandoff]

BamBam not joking.....Parling, Goode, Mullan, Flood.

I would prefer an in form Burns but will accept Flood maybe the better option now, but he is not a top class player who will win matches like this. Parling is not a major winning presence either and his lineout expertise is vastly overrated - I would again prefer to have Attwood. Mullan is 4th choice - not his fault he is there but I would prefer to see Sheridan answer the emergency call. Goode is not going to help our cause. We need centre cover and Burrell should be there.

Ben Youngs and Morgan are quality.

[kingelderfield]

I have to disagree with all this 'they've not been in the training squad so they can't get picked' rubbish - was Mullen part of the squad?

Lancaster is just an appalling selector. Three fullbacks again, what a pratt!

Dickson and Goode are just not international class, and Farrell and Tomkins are nothing more than defensive road blocks. Ashton is really struggling with his game and the game in general tbh(he has never really looked any better than arkward in contact/tackle/ruck situations) - however I have long thought this has a lot to do with Farrell's selection and subsequent positional play - he plays better of Flood and Hodgson.

Ofcourse Burrell is better than Tomkins and could play OC.

[BamBam]

BamBam not joking.....Parling, Goode, Mullan, Flood.

I would prefer an in form Burns but will accept Flood maybe the better option now, but he is not a top class player who will win matches like this. Parling is not a major winning presence either and his lineout expertise is vastly overrated - I would again prefer to have Attwood. Mullan is 4th choice - not his fault he is there but I would prefer to see Sheridan answer the emergency call. Goode is not going to help our cause. We need centre cover and Burrell should be there.

Ben Youngs and Morgan are quality.

Yeah I probably passed over the good parts of the bench after I saw Goode .. I'm just being unnecessarily negative, it probably is as good as we can put out at the moment, but going from Marler/Vunipola to Mullan, Foden/Eastmond/my nan to Goode doesn't fill me with confidence

The Youngs and Morgan are definite impact guys

[lostinwales]

Cant help thinking if we need 'impact' late on vs NZ we have already lost

[mystiroakey]

Cant help thinking if we need 'impact' late on vs NZ we have already lost

True,

Impact is all well and good v other teams.. But against NZ- no one has that impact of the bench to turn the tide..

However looking back to the last game..

WE played well first half and kept it tight. As soon as they then hit us with a couple of quick tries we then hit them back in the same and better vein.. However that wasn't with personnel changes, just reacted to the in-game situation.

[mystiroakey]

But if we go back to that Wales game..

Yes they won fair and square. But we couldn't turn the tide(and we possibly should have been able to a certain extent). That is the most worrying aspect of this england team. The first time a team tears us apart from the start - we couldn't do anything to change it up

[gregortree]

Wing Selections: bit harsh on SL when 2 'probables' wingers are in sick bay.
Ashton is only in due to this.
Although Sharples is back in good club form with a hattrick vs Japan.

[Poorfour]

But if we go back to that Wales game..

Yes they won fair and square. But we couldn't turn the tide(and we possibly should have been able to a certain extent). That is the most worrying aspect of this england team. The first time a team tears us apart from the start - we couldn't do anything to change it up

That was a pretty exceptional situation, though. If the ref is playing an interpretation that more or less guarantees you will give away a penalty each time you have a scrum, what options do you have? That's a big advantage to the other side, because in effect any handling error by either side gives them territory or points.

[Chjw131]

But if we go back to that Wales game..

Yes they won fair and square. But we couldn't turn the tide(and we possibly should have been able to a certain extent). That is the most worrying aspect of this england team. The first time a team tears us apart from the start - we couldn't do anything to change it up

Agreed, the word 'impact' is often used but I feel a bench should be there to provide options tactically. Being committed and clear during the game is important but so is the ability to be fluid and have the assets to back that up.

Alex Goode doesn't fit with players like Flood, Morgan, Youns x2 very well. It seems to be he's there because he's the only back three player left in the squad but with two fullbacks and a Fh/centre on the bench what we really need is a wing. I would've like to have seen Jonny May called up at the weekend. He plays wing/OC/FB and offers a damn site more in terms of tactical options to the bench.

I like what Lancs has done with the team ethos etc... but it's some selections like these which reinforce the idea that as a group the coaches lack an all-round view of the game.

[kingelderfield]

Wing Selections: bit harsh on SL when 2 'probables' wingers are in sick bay.
Ashton is only in due to this.
Although Sharples is back in good club form with a hattrick  vs Japan.

I had May as my selection, and yes Sharples should replace Ashton - however if you select Dickson And Farrell then you might as well play flankers on the wing for all the chances/difference it will make.

[gregortree]

Cant help thinking if we need 'impact' late on vs NZ we have already lost

Lost, look on the bright side, we have a bench to use
Does this read any better:
Cant help thinking if we need 'impact' late on vs NZ we have already lost it will be to consolidate an unexpected lead.

[lostinwales]

Its funny what happened with May in the summer. Yarde and Wade finished very much as first choices and he didnt get much of a chance . I don't know enough to know if this was correct but it would have been great to see him now

[Geordie]

In all honesty its no that bad guys. I like the pack...its got some crackin players.
We just need them creating a bit more space for the backs..who arent as bad as everyones making out.

The CRTICIAL point is playing 80 mins at high intensity. If we can do that we'll give them a good ol game...if we fall asleep like we did v Argentina in the second half...could be a long day at the office.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Owen Farrell's holding you back.

[Chjw131]

He did well coming in at the last minute for Christian Wade in the second Argie Test. He's a real talent and could certainly have offered something different from the bench.

Interesting article in The Rugby Paper from Wayne Smith. Seems like he doesn't see 36 and Tomkins as a good combination and says support of Mike Brown isn't organised enough. He's got some criticism for Farrell as well.

[lostinwales]

Cant help thinking if we need 'impact' late on vs NZ we have already lost

Lost, look on the bright side, we have a bench to use
Does this read any better:
Cant help thinking if we need 'impact' late on vs NZ we have already lost it will be to consolidate an unexpected lead.

Put it another way - I'd rather we applied 'impact' early and put them under pressure.

I think the team we have is much more about strangling the life out of them then applying the killing blow late on, but cant help that is a very risky strategy against NZ.

It isnt quite the same (I hope) but a few years back when England U20's first had a really good run in the JWC. They beat Oz and SA in a week using a strategy that was all about kick chase, forcing errors and capitalizing off them. Then they played the baby AB's who just didnt make errors....

[beshocked]

Wing Selections: bit harsh on SL when 2 'probables' wingers are in sick bay.
Ashton is only in due to this.
Although Sharples is back in good club form with a hattrick  vs Japan.

I had May as my selection, and yes Sharples should replace Ashton - however if you select Dickson And Farrell then you might as well play flankers on the wing for all the chances/difference it will make.

Oh right so a Gloucester fan wants to see two Gloucester wingers picked....


Luckless pedestrian you are of course right. It's all Farrell Jr's fault.

Picking Burns,Flood or Ford would fix all of England's problems but the coaches are too foolish to see it.

chjw131 has Wayne Smith got any positive suggestions or is it just a list of criticisms? Did he say what he would do if he actually took the English backs coach job?

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I think the team we have is much more about strangling the life out of them then applying the killing blow late on, but cant help that is a very risky strategy against NZ.

It isnt quite the same (I hope) but a few years back when England U20's first had a really good run in the JWC. They beat Oz and SA in a week using a strategy that was all about kick chase, forcing errors and capitalizing off them.

Sounds like Wales. Apart from the bit about beating Oz and SA.  

[lostinwales]

In all honesty its no that bad guys. I like the pack...its got some crackin players.
We just need them creating a bit more space for the backs..who arent as bad as everyones making out.

The CRTICIAL point is playing 80 mins at high intensity. If we can do that we'll give them a good ol game...if we fall asleep like we did v Argentina in the second half...could be a long day at the office.

Oh I think it will be close. I do think however that one of the big AB skills is scoring a lot of points in a short spell, so 'close' might well legitimately mean something like last year where we held them scoreless for a half followed by a few minutes where we get hammered. Just so long as nobody says that we could have won if it wasnt for that 5 minutes when they ran in 3 tries...

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Luckless pedestrian you are of course right. It's all Farrell Jr's fault.

Picking Burns,Flood or Ford would fix all of England's problems but the coaches are too foolish to see it.

I didn't say it that. I said he's holding you back.

[kingelderfield]

Actually Beshocked I’m not a Gloucester fan. Sharples certainly has his weaknesses but he is more than equal to Ashton though in a more classical style.

However, the ABSOLUTE FACT of the matter is that England currently has a genuine world class (top 3) winger in Christian Wade and the fact that Lancaster cannot see this and did not select him from the start against Australia just shows what a wretchedly appalling selector and coach he is.

How's young Tompkins doing?

[sirtidychris]

Bench= Goode           

Another 2 minute cameo from the man with the same impact as a ant falling from a twig.

[Tiger/Chief]

TOMKINS has under performed and it shows how Lancaster gas a game plan that he isn't prepared to deviate from! There is no way that a centre should be pigeon holed to only be able to play either 12 or 13! Surely they are inter changeable positions depending on the make up of your fly half centre partners and wingers!

If 12trees is picked he is a 2nd play maker so we need done more oomph in attack, I know Burrell has had a fee issues in defence but do we always have to pick players whose best ability is defence..... So negative to send Eastmond and Burrell home EVERY WEEK rather than at minimum giving one a run off the bench!

Lancaster talks about calling up Watson cos he has a point of difference! What the F is Tomkins point of difference?

[Tiger/Chief]

TOMKINS has under performed and it shows how Lancaster gas a game plan that he isn't prepared to deviate from! There is no way that a centre should be pigeon holed to only be able to play either 12 or 13! Surely they are inter changeable positions depending on the make up of your fly half centre partners and wingers!

If 12trees is picked he is a 2nd play maker so we need done more oomph in attack, I know Burrell has had a fee issues in defence but do we always have to pick players whose best ability is defence..... So negative to send Eastmond and Burrell home EVERY WEEK rather than at minimum giving one a run off the bench!

Lancaster talks about calling up Watson cos he has a point of difference! What the F is Tomkins point of difference?

[No 7&1/2]

I'm not sure giving players 1 or 2 games and then dropping them is the way forward. If the coaching staff identified players to start and introduce I thinks its only sensible to give them a decent chance otherwise any player being brought in faces even greater pressure. Dickson and Tomkins have been given that chance and now it's up to them to take it.

[Scrumpy]

I would have liked to have seen Burns against Argentina as imo he offers a lot more than Farrell, not that I'm against Farrell totally (he does have something to offer England) but him being there does seem to be dictating who plays outside him, We have a lot of talented players who are not getting game time against these SH teams.

We know what Farrell, Ashton, Flood and Goode can and can't do, I want to see what the likes of Burns, Burrell, Wade, Yarde and Eastmonds can do in the AI. (Injuries allowing)

[Chjw131]

Wing Selections: bit harsh on SL when 2 'probables' wingers are in sick bay.
Ashton is only in due to this.
Although Sharples is back in good club form with a hattrick  vs Japan.

I had May as my selection, and yes Sharples should replace Ashton - however if you select Dickson And Farrell then you might as well play flankers on the wing for all the chances/difference it will make.

Oh right so a Gloucester fan wants to see two Gloucester wingers picked....


Luckless pedestrian you are of course right. It's all Farrell Jr's fault.

Picking Burns,Flood or Ford would fix all of England's problems but the coaches are too foolish to see it.

chjw131 has Wayne Smith got any positive suggestions or is it just a list of criticisms? Did he say what he would do if he actually took the English backs coach job?

Actually his recommendations were suggested rather than stated. It's difficult to give a comprehensive synopsis suffice to say he felt that there should be more organisation and urgency in our counter-attack play. He went on to state that 45% of tries are scored from counter-attack and thus it should demand the equivalent level of coaching focus.

He felt that Barritt and Manu worked well as a pairing but that 36 and Tomkins (how is Tompkins btw?) weren't complimentary. There is no more detail listed than that. He went on to state that attack is a mindset which should be achieved first and the skills added second.

It wasn't an article full of thinly veiled criticism but one that was genuinely interesting and gave a small amount of insight. Worth reading it before judging Beshocked.

[doctor_grey]

[He went on to state that attack is a mindset which should be achieved first and the skills added second.

This is actually fascinating. Attack as a philosophy and skills fitted around it. I don't quite think I have seen it verbalised in this manner previously. Can anyone add some clarity to this for me? I did not see the actualy interview or quotes.

I always thought of an attack philosophy which is then fitted to the skills of the players involved. Coaching then fits the gaps and brings things together. Interesting.

[nathan]

Really does make me laugh how fickle people are in there selections. I mean a couple of games in because a player isn't rewriting the record books fan call for them to be axed. I think some of you on here are so impatient.

[beshocked]

kingelderfield sorry that's a ridiculous comment about Christian Wade.

He might become world class but to hype him up so much currently is not good.

If Sharples was equal to Ashton as you claim he would be on the England radar.

Tompkins is making nice progress -had a good debut in the Lv cup vs Wasps according to the match reports.


The likes of Eastmond,May,Joseph still have a lot to proof at club level let alone international level.

Sharples has 1 try this season. May 2 tries this season. Call them up! They are potentially world class!



Strettle has more tries than Sharples,Wade,Yarde,May and Ashton this season but you don't see me saying he deserves to get call up.

[kingelderfield]

Beshocked Christian Wade is undoubtedly the best English winger currently playing.

Now if you think Ashton and Strettle are better, well thats you're opinion, but can you not see that Wade is the most talented winger we've seen since Jason Robinson?

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