England v New Zealand match thread

[quinsforever]

First topic message reminder :

2.30pm at Twickenham on Saturday.

Betfair has england 5:1 against. Sounds about right to me.

Are NZ wearing black this time? I hope so. don't think France or anyone else found the Haka quite the same performed in what looked like white gym T-shirts.

My prediction, fwiw (and i know that's not much), NZ to win by 6, england to dominate at scrums, lineouts 50:50, 60% possession England but Joubert tough (but predictable and consistent) on holding on means isolated possession gives NZ the scoring edge from penalties, and NZ classically more clinical with open/broken field possession.

Really looking forwards to it though.

Anyone going?

[gregortree]

Its funny what happened with May in the summer. Yarde and Wade finished very much as first choices and he didnt get much of a chance . I don't know enough to know if this was correct but it would have been great to see him now

Against Japan on Tuesday, May was played in centre alongside HRH Tindall, but did not stand out especially. I think he performs better on wing.
Sharples with his hattrick was the stand-out winger.

[No 7&1/2]

Wade needs to prove it at a higher level consistently to be put in the world class bracket or classed as our best. Certainly looks good but you need to see how he fares against the top teams. I can certainly see why Lancaster was reluctant to start him against Aus as they would surely have targeted him in the air with Folau (and he got the better or George North in the summer for me). His chance will come in the 6N unless something major happens in between.

[beshocked]

kingelderfield depends what you mean by better.

Both Strettle and Ashton are more experienced and both have a knack for scoring.

For all the criticism Ashton gets he still scores tries - 18 tries in 36 matches - 50% strike rate is not bad in international matches.

Strettle is in a rich vein of try scoring form in the AP starting from about January this year. He's got 6 tries this season and at the tail end of last season he picked up a bucket load too.

I like Wade, he's got a lot of potential but at international level he's unproven.

He has not played in the HC either so he's unproven against the top sides in the HC too.

[Geordie]

It would appear Lancaster prefers two guys in the back three who have alround skills, as opposed to just two wingers and a Fb.

But personally i prefer a FB and two attacking wingers with a solid defence and basic kicking skills if required.

However for Saturday going against what i say above id like to have seen
11 Foden - Yes a FB but offers pace and attacking skills of a winger, and experience
14 Yarde - Pace and Power
15 Brown - Playing consistantly top class

Id have Wade on the bench aswell.

[GloriousEmpire]

So carter to play, and if he racks up 67 points on his own he will also celebrate his century by going through the 1500 point barrier.

[kingelderfield]

Wade needs to prove it at a higher level consistently to be put in the world class bracket or classed as our best. Certainly looks good but you need to see how he fares against the top teams. I can certainly see why Lancaster was reluctant to start him against Aus as they would surely have targeted him in the air with Folau (and he got the better or George North in the summer for me). His chance will come in the 6N unless something major happens in between.

No it won't if Lancaster is still the coach.

Wade should have been selected against Australia end of - to suggest otherwise is just utter rubbish.

[ChequeredJersey]

Our backs will be too blunt to win this game unless our pack can dominate the breakdown and collision like we managed last year or unless Foden, Brown and Ashton all play the varying ways we know they can to the very best of their potential

[Geordie]

So carter to play, and if he racks up 67 points on his own he will also celebrate his century by going through the 1500 point barrier.

Or he could get smashed by Lawes in the first minute and not know what planet he's on...

[ChequeredJersey]

So carter to play, and if he racks up 67 points on his own he will also celebrate his century by going through the 1500 point barrier.

Or he could get smashed by Lawes in the first minute and not know what planet he's on...

Poor taste, GF, after the Bismark (fair) tackle

[kingelderfield]

kingelderfield depends what you mean by better.

Both Strettle and Ashton are more experienced and both have a knack for scoring.

For all the criticism Ashton gets he still scores tries - 18 tries in 36 matches - 50% strike rate is not bad in international matches.

Strettle is in a rich vein of try scoring form in the AP starting from about January this year. He's got 6 tries this season and at the tail end of last season he picked up a bucket load too.

I like Wade, he's got a lot of potential but at international level he's unproven.

He has not played in the HC either so he's unproven against the top sides in the HC too.

Can only be selected for England if has played HC rugby? I'n not sure thats really true is it?

Seriously Beshocked you're too funny. Strettle for England, remember you heard it here first folks!

[Geordie]

Our backs will be too blunt to win this game unless our pack can dominate the breakdown and collision like we managed last year or unless Foden, Brown and Ashton all play the varying ways we know they can to the very best of their potential

Thats a HUGE IF from the recent games we've seen CJ...i'd like to see it though.

Need the forwards to put in one hell of a physical shift this weekend...physcial, relentless, pacy, tackling..carrying...

And staying out of the way of the backs to let them play a bit.

Farrell and Twelvetrees need a huge game aswell...

[No 7&1/2]

Wade needs to prove it at a higher level consistently to be put in the world class bracket or classed as our best. Certainly looks good but you need to see how he fares against the top teams. I can certainly see why Lancaster was reluctant to start him against Aus as they would surely have targeted him in the air with Folau (and he got the better or George North in the summer for me). His chance will come in the 6N unless something major happens in between.

No it won't if Lancaster is still the coach.

Wade should have been selected against Australia end of - to suggest otherwise is just utter rubbish.

Why won't he? Personally thought Ashton was the form winger coming into the AIs. It hasn't worked out again and Lancaster was ready to bring Wade in for Argentina. The combination of the form book and Folau in the air made me think Ashton should start and I think Wade will go on to be a very important part of the England team.

[Geordie]

So carter to play, and if he racks up 67 points on his own he will also celebrate his century by going through the 1500 point barrier.

Or he could get smashed by Lawes in the first minute and not know what planet he's on...

Poor taste, GF, after the Bismark (fair) tackle

Not really, GE was WUMMING about Carter alone scoring 67 points, which i should have ignored but elected to say... alternatively he might not score any points.

I dont want anyone seriously injured in Rugby...

[Scrumpy]

Carter has taken some flack lately so I expect him to have a cracker against England this weekend.

[kingelderfield]

Wade needs to prove it at a higher level consistently to be put in the world class bracket or classed as our best. Certainly looks good but you need to see how he fares against the top teams. I can certainly see why Lancaster was reluctant to start him against Aus as they would surely have targeted him in the air with Folau (and he got the better or George North in the summer for me). His chance will come in the 6N unless something major happens in between.

No it won't if Lancaster is still the coach.

Wade should have been selected against Australia end of - to suggest otherwise is just utter rubbish.

Why won't it? Personally thought Ashton was the form winger coming into the AIs. It hasn't worked out again and Lancaster was ready to bring Wade in for Argentina. The combination of the form book and Folau in the air made me think Ashton should start and I think Wade will go on to be a very important part of the England team.

What on earth made you think Ashton was the form winger? I know its all opinions but did you really think that, because it worries me that you did, or are you being a little clever for the sake of argument?

[nobbled]

Feeling pretty negative tbh.
England will need every single player to turn up to live with the AB's.
It is possible, but I'm afraid unlikely. I just can't see where the points are going to come from. Farrell's goal kicking hasn't been as metronomic as it has been in the past, and we are missing our key (only) linebreaker.
Ashton - well, yes he scored, but it should have been two and didn't manage to ground the one he did get...
Foden and Brown maybe could make something happen. I hope we can give them a good game. Would loved to be proved wrong by Ashton.

[mystiroakey]

Well SL thinks he is the best option and to be fair to him hasn't made many mistakes so far. I would rather just believe in him tbh . And i think Ashton showed plenty enough form last game to back it up

[No 7&1/2]

Wade needs to prove it at a higher level consistently to be put in the world class bracket or classed as our best. Certainly looks good but you need to see how he fares against the top teams. I can certainly see why Lancaster was reluctant to start him against Aus as they would surely have targeted him in the air with Folau (and he got the better or George North in the summer for me). His chance will come in the 6N unless something major happens in between.

No it won't if Lancaster is still the coach.

Wade should have been selected against Australia end of - to suggest otherwise is just utter rubbish.

Why won't it? Personally thought Ashton was the form winger coming into the AIs. It hasn't worked out again and Lancaster was ready to bring Wade in for Argentina. The combination of the form book and Folau in the air made me think Ashton should start and I think Wade will go on to be a very important part of the England team.

What on earth made you think Ashton was the form winger? I know its all opinions but did you really think that, because it worries me that you did, or are you being a little clever for the sake of argument?

Watching the Premiership and Europe up to the AIs. Ashton has been in very good form.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Well SL thinks he is the best option and to be fair to him hasn't made many mistakes so far. I would rather just believe in him tbh . And i think Ashton showed plenty enough form last game to back it up

What swung it for you? The try he butchered, or the one that might not have been given if the TMO had been consulted?

[Chjw131]

I am similarly pessimistic which is unusual. Having said that with a just two or three changes i'd be much more optimistic.

Had we seen a player like Trinder at 13, Attwood and May on the bench I would've felt we had a realistic chance.

[kingelderfield]

Wade needs to prove it at a higher level consistently to be put in the world class bracket or classed as our best. Certainly looks good but you need to see how he fares against the top teams. I can certainly see why Lancaster was reluctant to start him against Aus as they would surely have targeted him in the air with Folau (and he got the better or George North in the summer for me). His chance will come in the 6N unless something major happens in between.

No it won't if Lancaster is still the coach.

Wade should have been selected against Australia end of - to suggest otherwise is just utter rubbish.

Why won't it? Personally thought Ashton was the form winger coming into the AIs. It hasn't worked out again and Lancaster was ready to bring Wade in for Argentina. The combination of the form book and Folau in the air made me think Ashton should start and I think Wade will go on to be a very important part of the England team.

What on earth made you think Ashton was the form winger? I know its all opinions but did you really think that, because it worries me that you did, or are you being a little clever for the sake of argument?

Watching the Premiership and Europe up to the AIs. Ashton has been in very good form.

No honestly have another go - try and actually provide some evidence to your argument - some specific analysis that will help you to justify your statement.

[beshocked]

kingelderfield I didn't say Strettle for England.

I said he deserves to play more so than May and Sharples. You're the one who wanted those two in the England side for some odd reason.

HC rugby helps significantly but you are right it's not essential.

I would have picked Wade for the Argentina game if he was fit but he wasn't.

Ashton played well vs Toulouse and had put some decent shifts against other sides too. Finished well vs London Irish,Quins and Connacht.

nobbled you can't say for certain he didn't ground the ball.

[Chjw131]

The Ashton thing is a moot point. He would've been replaced but injuries proved otherwise.

Ashton needs two things, one to find a bit more confidence and the other is a game plan which plays to his work-rate as a winger. He scored a lot of tries when coming on the scene for England from the Flood inside ball. I can't remember seeing one inside ball from England in two years with the exception of Eastmond to Yarde on the Argentina tour. It's just an example but is illustrative of how Ashton will continue to struggle.

[Scrumpy]

Well SL thinks he is the best option and to be fair to him hasn't made many mistakes so far. I would rather just believe in him tbh . And i think Ashton showed plenty enough form last game to back it up

Are you for real?

He butched one chance (I've seen props side step better than that) and was very lucky to get away with his try that shouldn't have been (was he thinking about diving into the corner?).

SL is falling into the trap of selecting the same players all the time in the hope they come through, that is not a good way to go IMO.

[mystiroakey]

Yep i am for real dude

[beshocked]

English fans seem to be ridiculously critical.

I remember the huge amount of criticism Barritt got for his try vs NZ last season. I have seen the huge amount of criticism Farrell has got for his try. Ashton is now getting criticised for his try. I am seeing a pattern.....

[No 7&1/2]

Just my kingelderfield. Looked to me he was getting much more involved in the play again, some good supporting runs which we haven't seen for England due to the lack of real breaks. His defence had looked to have improved as well. I don't think he played particularly well against Aus hence why he was dropping to the bench/from the squad.

What makes you think he wasn't showing good form and what makes you think Wade is 1 of the 3 best wingers in the world (who's better than him)?

[Scrumpy]

That's right, we all hate Saracens players.  

[Chjw131]

Well SL thinks he is the best option and to be fair to him hasn't made many mistakes so far. I would rather just believe in him tbh . And i think Ashton showed plenty enough form last game to back it up

Are you for real?

He butched one chance (I've seen props side step better than that) and was very lucky to get away with his try that shouldn't have been (was he thinking about diving into the corner?).

SL is falling into the trap of selecting the same players all the time in the hope they come through, that is not a good way to go IMO.

I agree on the main point about Ashton, he's not at his sharpest at present.

SL though is a different matter. He would've replaced him post Australia and it's not SL's fault both Yarde and Wade are injured. Ashton, for all his faults is still a quality player although a more unconventional winger. He's being asked to do the job of a real classical winger, on the outisde - something which the pacier guys like Sharples, Wade etc.. are better at.

I'm not saying it's not his primary role but if you're not going to devise situation which involve utilising his work-rate and reading of the game then you're not going to see the best out of him.

Neither do I agree that SL should've dropped him pre-Australia. He was doing better for Sarries at the start of the season and if some players aren't given some lee-way to demonstrate an improvement in form then we'd have a perpetual revolving door of selection. Something which is certainly not healthy.

[Taylorman]

Just my kingelderfield. Looked to me he was getting much more involved in the play again, some good supporting runs which we haven't seen for England due to the lack of real breaks. His defence had looked to have improved as well. I don't think he played particularly well against Aus hence why he was dropping to the bench/from the squad.

What makes you think he wasn't showing good form and what makes you think Wade is 1 of the 3 best wingers in the world (who's better than him)?

On form?...Savea, B Smith and Piatau for a start...Habana, le roux and North...umm...

[Scrumpy]

If Ashton scores a hat trick this weekend I'll take it all back.

But we've been waiting since 2011 for him to reach the high standards he set himself, the odd run in try from 5m out isn't good enough seeing as his defence and all round contribution to the team is pants, how long do we give him?

[beshocked]

Scrumpy no I don't think that's true but there is so much negativity thrown around by England fans and plenty of useless hype. Saracens players do take the brunt of the criticism but in a way that's not surprising - they have had a high representation in the XV.  Plus they are unfashionable players.

There is a desire to see more attacking flair which most Saracens players admittedly don't have.  I just worry that it's not the players but the gameplan.

E.g. from what I have been told. Farrell Jr wants to play a flatter game but is under orders to kick more.

Let's be honest scrumpy - Ashton,Goode,Tomkins and Farrell are not popular players are they?

[Geordie]

English fans seem to be ridiculously critical.

I remember the huge amount of criticism Barritt got for his try vs NZ last season. I have seen the huge amount of criticism Farrell has got for his try. Ashton is now getting criticised for his try. I am seeing a pattern.....

Your right Beshocked...three good players who have been so robotically machined in to the borg like Sarries system that they cant change their game for England.

[No 7&1/2]

Just my kingelderfield. Looked to me he was getting much more involved in the play again, some good supporting runs which we haven't seen for England due to the lack of real breaks. His defence had looked to have improved as well. I don't think he played particularly well against Aus hence why he was dropping to the bench/from the squad.

What makes you think he wasn't showing good form and what makes you think Wade is 1 of the 3 best wingers in the world (who's better than him)?

On form?...Savea, B Smith and Piatau for a start...Habana, le roux and North...umm...

Completely agree...to start with. I'm just interested to see how king rates players.

[mystiroakey]

Do people think Yarde did enough v Aus to get a place in the starting line up?

[Taylorman]

If Ashton scores a hat trick this weekend I'll take it all back.

He'll be ok...As long as he doesnt wink at Savea during the haka...  

[kingelderfield]

kingelderfield I didn't say Strettle for England.

I said he deserves to play more so than May and Sharples. You're the one who wanted those two in the England side for some odd reason.

HC rugby helps significantly but you are right it's not essential.

I would have picked Wade for the Argentina game if he was fit but he wasn't.

Ashton played well vs Toulouse and had put some decent shifts against other sides too. Finished well vs London Irish,Quins and Connacht.

nobbled you can't say for certain he didn't ground the ball.

Actually Beshocked by implication you did. As to May and Sharples, I would have selected May from the start just ahead of Yarde, though I appreciate they're both young bucks learning their trade, so could see one over the other. I would select Sharples as a back up to Wade. You'll note I would not have selected Ashton.

As to saying you would have selected Wade for Argentina, well why? Surely a player is either good enough or not - so if Argentina why not Australia?

[beshocked]

English fans seem to be ridiculously critical.

I remember the huge amount of criticism Barritt got for his try vs NZ last season. I have seen the huge amount of criticism Farrell has got for his try. Ashton is now getting criticised for his try. I am seeing a pattern.....

Your right Beshocked...three good players who have been so robotically machined in to the borg like Sarries system that they cant change their game for England.

I would say the Saracens gameplan is less borg like as you call it than when Andy Farrell was at the club.

Ashton and Farrell in particular have been better for Saracens this season because they've shown a bit more freedom. Ashton has had licence to roam and if you saw the Toulouse game you would have seen them play well. Even the maligned Goode played well too.

It was weird to essentially see Sarries backs vs Toulouse's forwards. Sarries backs largely outshone their counterparts in my opinion.

[Scrumpy]

Do people think Yarde did enough v Aus to get a place in the starting line up?

Yes

[beshocked]

kingelderfield I didn't say Strettle for England.

I said he deserves to play more so than May and Sharples. You're the one who wanted those two in the England side for some odd reason.

HC rugby helps significantly but you are right it's not essential.

I would have picked Wade for the Argentina game if he was fit but he wasn't.

Ashton played well vs Toulouse and had put some decent shifts against other sides too. Finished well vs London Irish,Quins and Connacht.

nobbled you can't say for certain he didn't ground the ball.

Actually Beshocked by implication you did. As to May and Sharples, I would have selected May from the start just ahead of Yarde, though I appreciate they're both young bucks learning their trade, so could see one over the other. I would select Sharples as a back up to Wade. You'll note I would not have selected Ashton.

As to saying you would have selected Wade for Argentina, well why? Surely a player is either good enough or not - so if Argentina why not Australia?

No I didn't imply that. Strettle is better than May and Sharples though.

My choices for Australia would have been as chosen - Yarde and Ashton with Wade to replace Ashton vs Argentina.

What exactly has May done to warrant an England call up?

Argentina is an easier match. Less of a trial by fire. I certainly wouldn't throw Wade in vs NZ.

[quinsforever]

Do people think Yarde did enough v Aus to get a place in the starting line up?

Yes

yes

[Geordie]

English fans seem to be ridiculously critical.

I remember the huge amount of criticism Barritt got for his try vs NZ last season. I have seen the huge amount of criticism Farrell has got for his try. Ashton is now getting criticised for his try. I am seeing a pattern.....

Your right Beshocked...three good players who have been so robotically machined in to the borg like Sarries system that they cant change their game for England.

I would say the Saracens gameplan is less borg like as you call it than when Andy Farrell was at the club.

Ashton and Farrell in particular have been better for Saracens this season because they've shown a bit more freedom. Ashton has had licence to roam and if you saw the Toulouse game you would have seen them play well. Even the maligned Goode played well too.

It was weird to essentially see Sarries backs vs Toulouse's forwards. Sarries backs largely outshone their counterparts in my opinion.

Ah your right, that was a bit excessive. I think they are improving.

Ashton is suffering as his style doesnt suit the current system being played by England. Thats not his fault (is lancasters fault for picking him)...however in my eyes he doesnt have the skill set to play the game he needs to to make an impact in this team. And regardless of his try he did nearly mess it up and did blow another try that any other top winger would most likely have scored.

Farrell is a continuous work in progress. His defence and kicking is pretty good (his kicking decisions isnt always great though), but his attacking side is poor. Now im sorry but rugby is about attack and defence. Thats why he comes in for criticism and rightly so. Hes Englands FH he should be able to create and playmake.

Barritt is a general. You know what you get - huge defensive leader, extra flanker style but little offence. I would happily have him at 12 so long as we had creativity elsewhere at 10 and 13. And in Lancasters Favorite lineup 10 Farrell, 12 Barritt 13 Tuilagi doesnt have any creativity....

Thats why many of your clubs players (in critical decision making positions ) are coming in for criticism...

[Scrumpy]

Its interesting that both Wade and Yarde are now considered 1st/2nd choice wingers for England since the summer tour yet the players who made them look good Burns, Joseph, Eastmond don't get a look in apart from 36.

[gregortree]

Back on the theme of NZ culture.. how about this Haka for an awsome spectacle andblend of cultures:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJZxwmwES8w

[Scrumpy]

Why do NZ do different versions of the Haka and what is the significance of doing it in a different way?

[quinsforever]

Back on the theme of NZ culture.. how about this Haka for an awsome spectacle andblend of cultures:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJZxwmwES8w

now that is awesome. gave me goosebumps. real soldiers doing it for fallen comrades puts the rugby version into perspective.

[kingelderfield]

Just my kingelderfield. Looked to me he was getting much more involved in the play again, some good supporting runs which we haven't seen for England due to the lack of real breaks. His defence had looked to have improved as well. I don't think he played particularly well against Aus hence why he was dropping to the bench/from the squad.

What makes you think he wasn't showing good form and what makes you think Wade is 1 of the 3 best wingers in the world (who's better than him)?

On form?...Savea, B Smith and Piatau for a start...Habana, le roux and North...umm...

Completely agree...to start with. I'm just interested to see how king rates players.

I fully appreciate that to date Wade has only AP and U20/Saxons representation (I’m discounting the Lions appearance); however from what I have seen he has an exceptionally rare talent. He has top level pace, the ability to step off both feet and most of all what all the real great players have which is a rugby brain enabling him to react quicker than those around him.

Is he world class? Well yes that is a massive call but one that I stand by. It is early days and all you can really says is he was top joint try scorer in the AP which isn't much to shout home about, but is he as good as the players mentioned above, well actually I think he is.

He obviously will have to war against the likes of Lancaster and the Farrell’s if he is ever going to for fill his tremendous potential, however I definitely expect him to achieve 50+ caps

[gregortree]

Back on the theme of NZ culture.. how about this Haka for an awsome spectacle andblend of cultures:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJZxwmwES8w

now that is awesome. gave me goosebumps. real soldiers doing it for fallen comrades puts the rugby version into perspective.

+1  

[No 7&1/2]

So why don't you think that Ashton was on form and who are the 2 or less players better than Wade (currently) in the world King? You doubted I was being serious about Ashton but come on, Wade looks good but it's potential at the top level as yet. You're also not trying to seriously say Lancaster hasn't given players a chance in the past can you?

[gregortree]

So why don't you think that Ashton was on form and who are the 2 or less players better than Wade (currently) in the world King? You doubted I was being serious about Ashton but come on, Wade looks good but it's potential at the top level as yet. You're also not trying to seriously say Lancaster hasn't given players a chance in the past can you?

I think SL yanked Sharples off the England stage before he could settle. The lad is on fire on the right wing for his club this season.

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