England v New Zealand match thread

by quinsforever Sun 10 Nov 2013, 10:12 pm

First topic message reminder :

2.30pm at Twickenham on Saturday.

Betfair has england 5:1 against. Sounds about right to me.

Are NZ wearing black this time? I hope so. don't think France or anyone else found the Haka quite the same performed in what looked like white gym T-shirts.

My prediction, fwiw (and i know that's not much), NZ to win by 6, england to dominate at scrums, lineouts 50:50, 60% possession England but Joubert tough (but predictable and consistent) on holding on means isolated possession gives NZ the scoring edge from penalties, and NZ classically more clinical with open/broken field possession.

Really looking forwards to it though.

Anyone going?

by quinsforever Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:24 pm

EnglishReign wrote:Well one thing we should never do again is have Flood in the squad.

100% agree he was not good today.

i would rather see burns on the bench than flood if thats all he's got

by madmaccas Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:25 pm

Well done to England, they really punched above their weight there. Joubert had a shocker but it didn't affect the result in the end.

by kiakahaaotearoa Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:25 pm

Good hard fought win. Showed character when England went up with the penalty and they upped the intensity and the impact of the bench gave them an edge in the last quarter. Much to criticise about that NZ performance but the character shown cannot be faulted and the defence at the end was outstanding.

Well done England. Came back into the game and got your nose in front. Showed a lot of character to not lose it in the first half. NZ then showed equal character to come back. Good hard test match. Trophy cabinet is complete and we got a good hard game. Very pleasing result but England have shown that their ranking is justified.

by fa0019 Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:25 pm

How many times does tom youngs have to play to show he is not test standard.

He can't throw, is weak in the scrum, gets turned over a lot. Is there anything he can do?

The whole momentum was lost when he came on.

If he can't do his basics in such an important position then all his ruck work and tackling is pointless.

At the moment he is club standard, middle of the range club.

by nathan Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:25 pm

nobbled wrote:Well done New Zealand - deserved win. Very happy with the England performance. Gave them a game anyway!
Need T Youngs to learn how to throw at a line out consistently.
Really enjoyable game to watch.

He can throw as he did in this fixture last year, he just needs to do it consistently

by ALPanorak Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:25 pm

Three standout players between the two teams:
For NZ - Savea and Read, both just so dynamic with ball in hand, pace and power combined with the unfair addition of great hands.
For England - Lawes was immense, great in the lineout, ball carrying and defence. Also just credit to the forwards in general for competing evenly (if not bettering their counterparts) so well on all fronts.

by andyi Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:26 pm

That's why the All-Blacks are the best team in the world by a distance.

They were not at their best and challenged by England and went behind. What did they do? Stepped up, got back in front, extended it to 2 scores and then shut England out of the game completely in the last 10.

Not many teams would be able to that!

by mystiroakey Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:26 pm

Cant wait for the series next year now!!!

by nathan Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:26 pm

fa0019 wrote:How many times does tom youngs have to play to show he is not test standard.

He can't throw, is weak in the scrum, gets turned over a lot. Is there anything he can do?

The whole momentum was lost when he came on.

If he can't do his basics in such an important position then all his ruck work and tackling is pointless.

At the moment he is club standard, middle of the range club.

Didn't he play last year when we actually beat the all blacks?

by mystiroakey Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:27 pm

andyi wrote:That's why the All-Blacks are the best team in the world by a distance.

They were not at their best and challenged by England and went behind. What did they do? Stepped up, got back in front, extended it to 2 scores and then shut England out of the game completely in the last 10.

Not many teams would be able to that!

andyi i think you need to give more credit to England. NZ started amazing, England some how stopped the flow and got right back in the game from 3-17 down!!

by fa0019 Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:27 pm

nathan wrote:
nobbled wrote:Well done New Zealand - deserved win. Very happy with the England performance. Gave them a game anyway!
Need T Youngs to learn how to throw at a line out consistently.
Really enjoyable game to watch.
He can throw as he did in this fixture last year, he just needs to do it consistently

England wasted years with Lee Mears. You can't say oh but he's still learning the position.... Until he proves himself he shouldn't be in squad... It's that simple. Hartley isn't amazing, but he simply does his basics.

by quinsforever Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:27 pm

that is a massive shiner robshaw is sporting!

really annoying interviewer qns...who is it?

by BamBam Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:29 pm

Who is the pr1ck in the white scarf

by nathan Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:29 pm

fa0019 wrote:
nathan wrote:
nobbled wrote:Well done New Zealand - deserved win. Very happy with the England performance. Gave them a game anyway!
Need T Youngs to learn how to throw at a line out consistently.
Really enjoyable game to watch.
He can throw as he did in this fixture last year, he just needs to do it consistently
England wasted years with Lee Mears. You can't say oh but he's still learning the position.... Until he proves himself he shouldn't be in squad... It's that simple. Hartley isn't amazing, but he simply does his basics.

Well going on that premise then we shouldn't have any backs in the team.

by EnglishReign Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:29 pm

Really should start dominating the 6 nations, shame we couldn't have a crack at SA this year.

by mystiroakey Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:29 pm

"Well going on that premise then we shouldn't have any backs in the team."

BROWN!!!!

best back in the world mate

by quinsforever Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:30 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Cant wait for the series next year now!!!

unfortunately the first game clashes with the AP final. any players involved in that (prob leics and sarries) wont be playing in the first test.

this is a NZRU enforced screwup according to a mark souster Times article on the topic. there is a thread here about it.

such a shame.

by Geordie Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:30 pm

andyi wrote:That's why the All-Blacks are the best team in the world by a distance.

They were not at their best and challenged by England and went behind. What did they do? Stepped up, got back in front, extended it to 2 scores and then shut England out of the game completely in the last 10.

Not many teams would be able to that!

Or was it just that England took the game to them and didn't let them play to their best? Fair play mate ABs showed their quality but give England a bit of credit...

by Cowshot Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:30 pm

By the description, I'd guess it's Sonia McLoughlin

by Cyril Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:30 pm

Cracking game! Very Happy

A bit disappointed, but that was a good performance, especially after the first 20 minutes.

Congrats NZ.

Autumn was over pretty quickly, wasn't it? Crying or Very sad

by nathan Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:30 pm

mystiroakey wrote:"Well going on that premise then we shouldn't have any backs in the team."

BROWN!!!!

best back in the world mate

Brown excluded!

by majesticimperialman Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:31 pm

A great game that/ I must admit when NZ went 17-3 up in the first 10 minutes or so. I thought NZ was going to do a rout on England, But well played England for hanging in their.

And well played NZ for a great win today. Revenge as been taken.

by BamBam Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:31 pm

It is fair to question Youngs place, especially when Lawes and co have shown how good they can be, and Webber looked so good in Argentina..

Some pressure on his place in the 23 might help him buck up his ideas on throwing

by Duty281 Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:31 pm

My prediction was, near-enough, bang on. A titanic struggle, with New Zealand eventually pulling away and winning by 8. Exactly what happened.

It's just such a pleasure to watch New Zealand play rugby. The sheer intensity of it. The sheer class. Deserved winners without a doubt, and the gap does indeed remain.

As for England: what an effort. From 17-3 down to 22-20 up - they can reflect on what they can do, before the tank ran out of gas. They matched New Zealand for large parts, and were better in some parts. The challenge for Lancaster is to replicate that. If England can sustain such a level for 80 minutes, they will no doubt win the Six Nations next year. Wales can't play like that currently. Nor can France.

England need to be consistent. That is the challenge, starting from team selection. At their best, England are just off New Zealand's level (oh what I would have given for Tuilagi to have been playing today!), and level with South Africa.

Well played England. clap

Even better played New Zealand. clap

by Scrumpy Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:31 pm

Very proud of the forwards just think what we could do if we had 15 players on the field!

We'll played NZ

by The Fourth Lion Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:31 pm

I'm disappointed but in the end it was a fair result. Well played NZ.... they had the better part of the game and deserved the win.

England got their noses in front and for a short while, the AB's looked rattled, but the loss of Dylan Hartley was a major factor. Tom Youngs threw poorly into the line out and it cost England vital possession. That's not an excuse. NZ still had to make their possession work and they did it well. That's what world champions do.

But England do come out of the match with credit. The pre-match talk was about NZ getting 'revenge' for last year and wanting to give England a drubbing. That part of the plan didn't work. England fronted up well and made a good fist of it. I think that NZ will treat this England team a bit more warily in the future.

.

by fa0019 Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:32 pm

nathan wrote:
fa0019 wrote:How many times does tom youngs have to play to show he is not test standard.

He can't throw, is weak in the scrum, gets turned over a lot. Is there anything he can do?

The whole momentum was lost when he came on.

If he can't do his basics in such an important position then all his ruck work and tackling is pointless.

At the moment he is club standard, middle of the range club.
Didn't he play last year when we actually beat the all blacks?

Can he play well, yes but hooker is the 1-3 key positions in rugby. You need consistency. Very rarely does he play where he doesn't show key weakness in one area be it scrums, lineouts or getting turned over.

You can't hide away as a hooker on the rugby field. If you have a bad day you'll have a nightmare. I'd rather have a guy who is consistently good then great one day and bad six others.

by quinsforever Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:33 pm

how good is morgan coming off the bench.

felt like the NZ players coming off the bench had more impact apart from Morgan.

just shows how important the bench is in a test match of such intensity. they looked absolutely exhausted.

by Coltnet Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:34 pm

Shame for England, but very proud of the lads. Only changes I'd make if there was a game next week barring injuries would be Care on the bench instead of Youngs, and Tomkins off and someone like Burrell on. Tomkins is not test class. Youngs would not be on the bench either but I'm struggling for another hooker of any class. Webber? Is his throwing in much better? Oh and of course Ashton off and Wade on. Need to find a way to play him!
We'll played lads, good game and lots of effort.

by andyi Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:34 pm

mystiroakey wrote:
andyi wrote:That's why the All-Blacks are the best team in the world by a distance.

They were not at their best and challenged by England and went behind. What did they do? Stepped up, got back in front, extended it to 2 scores and then shut England out of the game completely in the last 10.

Not many teams would be able to that!
andyi i think you need to give more credit to England. NZ started amazing, England some how stopped the flow and got right back in the game from 3-17 down!!

I did. As I said England really challenged them but they still stepped up and shut the game down, Sign of a very good team. 1 defeat in 30 says it all!

by nathan Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:34 pm

BamBam wrote:It is fair to question Youngs place, especially when Lawes and co have shown how good they can be, and Webber looked so good in Argentina..

Some pressure on his place in the 23 might help him buck up his ideas on throwing

I know its fair but to say he's rubbish based on a single performance is silly. Hartley is certainly number 1 at the moment.

by Scrumpy Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:35 pm

We lost a weapon when t youngs came on, never been a huge fan of Hartley but missing out on the lions seems to have sorted him out, keep it up

by Geordie Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:35 pm

I agree that Hartley has shown top form this AI's and he is back as No.1. Hes actually playing his best rugby for England I think. Hes carrying very well also...

Youngs is very good but a work in progress...

by mystiroakey Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:36 pm

Ashton was good!!!

why the hate coltnet?

It seems like ashton and Farrell have faces people just hate to be honest.

Both played very well today

by Geordie Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:39 pm

Ashton showed up very well today as did Farrell..

Twelvetrees came in to the game..did make a few mistakes but we want players trying things.

The backs on a whole though needs a big look at...

by kiakahaaotearoa Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:39 pm

It's a shame SA don't play England but I'm not sure about level with SA, Duty. Biltong might have a word as well about that.

Really impressed with England. Lawes and Brown were my picks for England but Vunipola played well and the England pack in particular was very effective. Farrell looked composed and I think there was a big drop in performance when the likes of T Youngs and Flood came on. Morgan carried strong and was the pick of the bench.

I think generally the pack is looking strong but outside Farrell excluding Brown at the back (who was more effective in his own half with his immaculate defending) is where I think SA looks better than England. They didn't show much in the way of penetration.

That said, England deserve the plaudits for an absorbing match and I think 3rd in the world is a fair reflection of where they are at the moment. They made the All Blacks look off colour today with a superb clean out and good set play but they need to create more chances for themselves through the backs like NZ were able to do when it mattered.

by BamBam Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:39 pm

nathan wrote:
BamBam wrote:It is fair to question Youngs place, especially when Lawes and co have shown how good they can be, and Webber looked so good in Argentina..

Some pressure on his place in the 23 might help him buck up his ideas on throwing
I know its fair but to say he's rubbish based on a single performance is silly. Hartley is certainly number 1 at the moment.

Oh yeah, for sure he isn't rubbish! Hope Hartley is ok, looked like he didn't know what sport he was playing at one point

by Cumbrian Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:40 pm

Yep well done NZ, they deserved it. Really pleased with the fight and the performance of the forwards (for 60 mins). I thought Launchbury, Lawes (Best game I've seen from him) Farrell, Dickson, Wood, Billy Vunipola and Ben Morgan played well.

Negatives:
Tom Youngs was terrible and Ben Youngs far too slow. Not impressed with Tompkins and NZ looked like scoring every time they attacked Ashton's wing. Flood struggled too.

by ALPanorak Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:40 pm

Real touching tribute to the humble legend Carter from McCaw - was a pity that he couldn't stay on the field for longer. DC is too cool for school (even with that eyesore of a hat Wink

)

by Coltnet Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:41 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Ashton was good!!!

why the hate coltnet?

It seems like ashton and Farrell have faces people just hate to be honest.

Both played very well today

No hate towards Ashton, I just think there are better players. I am actually a supporter of Ashton but he never appears to get the rub of the green lets say. I would rather try someone raw like Wade. I don't dislike Farrell. I like his ability to get under the opponents skin and there can be no questioning his ability. Like I saw proud of the boys but would still tinker. Tomkins is garbage though and not an int centre IMO.

by Artful_Dodger Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:41 pm

I thought Tomkins was a real weak link in the England team today. In fact I thought he was poor enough to be categorized as out of his depth and not in the same company as the other players on the pitch.

by Taylorman Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:42 pm

Series next year should be interesting. The ABs are going to have to invest more up front vs England. The difference today was purely a couple of brilliant moments by individuals- Read, Savea and Nonu. If not for them we would have lost and we can't rely solely on magical passes sticking, not over 3 tests.

Our kicking is getting annoying, we got nothing from it all day.

Good win by Wales by the way too.

by Duty281 Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:43 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:It's a shame SA don't play England but I'm not sure about level with SA, Duty. Biltong might have a word as well about that.

Really impressed with England. Lawes and Brown were my picks for England but Vunipola played well and the England pack in particular was very effective. Farrell looked composed and I think there was a big drop in performance when the likes of T Youngs and Flood came on. Morgan carried strong and was the pick of the bench.

I think generally the pack is looking strong but outside Farrell excluding Brown at the back (who was more effective in his own half with his immaculate defending) is where I think SA looks better than England. They didn't show much in the way of penetration.

That said, England deserve the plaudits for an absorbing match and I think 3rd in the world is a fair reflection of where they are at the moment. They made the All Blacks look off colour today with a superb clean out and good set play but they need to create more chances for themselves through the backs like NZ were able to do when it mattered.

If England could replicate this performance, at home, against South Africa, I would certainly back England to win. The last two times England have played South Africa: one draw and one narrow loss. England certainly didn't play in either of those games with as much quality as they managed in this one.

by Coltnet Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:43 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:I thought Tomkins was a real weak link in the England team today. In fact I thought he was poor enough to be categorized as out of his depth and not in the same company as the other players on the pitch.

Agreed!

by Duty281 Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:45 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:I thought Tomkins was a real weak link in the England team today. In fact I thought he was poor enough to be categorized as out of his depth and not in the same company as the other players on the pitch.

And with Tuilagi out for the Six Nations, a decision will have to be made on whether to stick with Tomkins or replace him.

Hopefully the latter, on evidence of the 3 games this autumn, and Burrell is the leading candidate I would imagine.

by mystiroakey Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:46 pm

The next big game for us then.

ENGLAND V WALES.

Cant wait..

by nathan Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:48 pm

When Manu's back, who would peoples preferred centres be? For me it's Manu and 36

by Geordie Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:48 pm

Lets not rubbish Tomkins too much. Hes played his first 3 games against Australia, Argentina then NZ. The whole set of backs need criticised not just him.

He did some decent things in there and his physicality cant be questioned.

by mystiroakey Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:49 pm

nathan wrote:When Manu's back, who would peoples preferred centres be? For me it's Manu and 36

those two together are right up there yes!

by nathan Sat 16 Nov 2013, 4:49 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Lets not rubbish Tomkins too much. Hes played his first 3 games against Australia, Argentina then NZ. The whole set of backs need criticised not just him.

He did some decent things in there and his physicality cant be questioned.

This! We as fans are too quick to chuck a player on the scrap heap!

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