England v New Zealand match thread

[quinsforever]

First topic message reminder :

2.30pm at Twickenham on Saturday.

Betfair has england 5:1 against. Sounds about right to me.

Are NZ wearing black this time? I hope so. don't think France or anyone else found the Haka quite the same performed in what looked like white gym T-shirts.

My prediction, fwiw (and i know that's not much), NZ to win by 6, england to dominate at scrums, lineouts 50:50, 60% possession England but Joubert tough (but predictable and consistent) on holding on means isolated possession gives NZ the scoring edge from penalties, and NZ classically more clinical with open/broken field possession.

Really looking forwards to it though.

Anyone going?

[Duty281]

The next big game for us then.

ENGLAND V WALES.

Cant wait..

Ireland used to be our bogey team, now it's Wales!

And that game should be the best game of the Six Nations.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Duty that's why I said it's a shame as I'd like to see where England is against SA. But it's too easy to say if that happened then this would happen. SA have much improved this year as well as England and until there's a meeting between the two I think it's premature to say England is level with them. That said, it's clear that England are on an upward trend and teams are going to be wary of facing them at home in 2015. The exciting thing for England is that there is still potential for improvement.

That's not to say NZ couldn't improve as this autumn tour hasn't been as convincing as the RC. But I've welcomed these tough games from France and England and today was a step up over a very convincing French performance last week. I don't wish to understate the England performance. They'll be frustrated that their error rate was low throughout most of the match and then at the end a few crucial errors occurred but overall it was a very positive performance and I imagine England fans will be disappointed with the result but heartened by the step up in performance from the first two games this autumn.

[EnglishReign]

Bring it on! I now look forward to eng v nz, previously I dreaded it. If we carry on like we are, I'm sure we won't be waiting another 10 years for a win.

[Geordie]

How do you solve a problem like Englands backs!

[Taylorman]

Bring it on! I now look forward to eng v nz, previously I dreaded it. If we carry on like we are, I'm sure we won't be waiting another 10 years for a win.

Based on that performance and with returning players England definitely won't lose all 3. What they do other than that depends on how SL develops this side through the 6N. The AB's werent at their best today and will improve from this as well. For me the June window gets the AB's at their weakest with the sxv on a break and not having played a test for over 6 months.

[Cumbrian]

How do you solve a problem like Englands backs!

I know!  It seems like the pack are constantly compensating for the backs deficiencies.  I think Lancaster needs to decide how he wants them to play.  Does he want them to be a rapier or a blunt object?  I'd suggest that if our forwards play like that, the backs simply need to be big buggers who can truck it up over the gain line and recycle with a masterful fullback who is amazing positionally and can cover kick returns.

[Duty281]

England will have to start quick in the Six Nations - first game is in Paris!

[Cowshot]

I imagine England fans will be disappointed with the result but heartened by the step up in performance from the first two games this autumn.

More or less sums it up. The two things I'd add are that we saw a style of play from England that looked coherent even if all the parts weren't there or functioning properly; and secondly that we will go to NZ with a genuine belief that we can win the three Test series. (Rightly or wrongly!  )

[Sgt_Pooly]

Another poor backs display on the whole, 36 & Brown only plus points.

Cracking pack performance, we're building nice. Two things:

1. T Youngs should not wear an International shirt anytime soon, you cannot throw that badly consistently and expect to play top level rugby.

2. The Tomkins experiment has run it's course, time for the next option to have a go.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Joubert does tend to let the game go for a free for all. I think he missed a lot from both sides. It felt in the middle stages of the game that the calls were going the way of the home team and in the final quarter they started going against the home side. The general ruling of the breakdown needed to see NZ adapt. We let England players linger in the tackle area and they proved a nuisance whereas I think the England cleanout was superb and consequently their ball retention was much better. We didn't seem to learn from that last year and that was disappointing. What was clearly different from last year was the NZ defence. I have to pay credit to TKB. I really thought Smith, with his nothing box kicks, should've been taken off earlier. TKB's commitment on defence was pleasing and that's what I guess he offers in balance to Smith and why TJ Perenara might find it difficult to get the bench spot. Just committed defence and we started punching up the middle with the forwards near the end as the gaps opened but too often we went wide too soon or put in a poor kick.

[rodders]

From a neutral England can take a lot from that game - NZ were 17-3 up early on and they couldn't put them away. NZ really struggled with England's physicality which says a lot considering how well NZ have dealt with the springboks in recent times.

Second week running NZ have looked vulnerable but fair play when the chips were down they have come up with the big plays. Reid showed why he's the best player in the world again.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Burrells hands are getting much better as the season goes on. A centre partnership of Burrell and Manu would frighten the lives out of most opposition, 36 stones on the hoof rather 36 himself.

[Coltnet]

Another poor backs display on the whole, 36 & Brown only plus points.

Cracking pack performance, we're building nice. Two things:

1. T Youngs should not wear an International shirt anytime soon, you cannot throw that badly consistently and expect to play top level rugby.

2. The Tomkins experiment has run it's course, time for the next option to have a go.

36 better today and Brown was class. When was the last time he had a bad game for club or country?
Tomkins=Gash
T Youngs throwing=Gash!

[kiakahaaotearoa]

I imagine England fans will be disappointed with the result but heartened by the step up in performance from the first two games this autumn.

More or less sums it up. The two things I'd add are that we saw a style of play from England that looked coherent even if all the parts weren't there or functioning properly; and secondly that we will go to NZ with a genuine belief that we can win the three Test series. (Rightly or wrongly!  )

England are building nicely and looking dangerous at home which is ominous for their pool opponents in 2015. However, away from home I'm not so sure. Against Australia in Dunedin, NZ recorded their 30th consecutive home victory. When you look at certain stadiums against opponents like SA in Eden Park where they haven't won in almost 80 years, it becomes very intimidating.

England should rightly go to NZ in June with belief they can foot it with the best. But they'll find it's not quite the same playing away than it is at home, which has been pleasing for me to have the young players in the NZ team experience that before 2015. Going to be a great series and no doubt England will be received with a positive vibe from the NZ media who will recognise England are worthy opponents. Couldn't choose a better NH opponent to have a match series and can't wait. In a way the loss today will serve England better in terms of motivation as they'll feel they let slip a rare opportunity to get consecutive wins over NZ.

[nganboy]

Well I'm glad a couple of Kiwis are starting to agree with me about the kicking. Lots of it was terrible and just gave possession to England. SA used to kick a lot to us because we couldn't catch but we sorted it out. Today England caught almost everything so we should have changed our tactics.
I thought England was very good and put us under huge pressure in defence and the forwards really took it to us. The cleanout was great for England. Losing the lineouts later on hurt England badly and gave us back the ball we had been giving away.
I thought a few calls didn't go our way but then some did so no worries really.
Overall relieved and a little disappointed that we didn't change our game a bit more a bit earlier.
Well done both teams.

[king_carlos]

How do you solve a problem like Englands backs!

Whilst I'd agree the backs have been poor for a very long time the bright side is I think we have the players to fix it if given a chance.

9.Yougs, Care or Dickson
10.Farrell, Flood or Burns
11.Yarde
12.Twelvetrees
13.Daly or Trinder
14.Wade - With May backing up each wing
15.Brown - With Foden offering competition

Would require some changes but Yarde and Wade would have both played in the Autumn had it not been for injury.

By no mean will it be an automatic or easy fix with our backs but I do feel we have the talent available to try something different if we have the courage to do so. Come the Six Nations I'd like to see a simple formula for our backline (especially with Manu out):

1.Get sheer pace on the wings. For me that means Yarde, Wade and May - all three are lightning quick and have strong all round skill sets.
2.Give the 13 shirt to someone with the pace and vision to attack in the wider channels and release the above wingers.
3.Give Farrell (or whoever is at FH) a license to play flatter and really attack the gainline using forward runners plus take full advantage Yarde/Wade/May's excellent ability to run very good lines coming off their wings.

[nathan]

What's going to happen when north aims for wade though?

[Tiger/Chief]

May isn't a good enough footballer. Foden covers wings excellently! Need players with all round games at international level!

Wade and Yarde for me with Foden on the bench covering back 3!

[Coltnet]

What's going to happen when north aims for wade though?

He makes the tackle. Or at least acts as a speed bump until others get there. He'll have to do it in the AP!

[Cowshot]

I imagine England fans will be disappointed with the result but heartened by the step up in performance from the first two games this autumn.

More or less sums it up. The two things I'd add are that we saw a style of play from England that looked coherent even if all the parts weren't there or functioning properly; and secondly that we will go to NZ with a genuine belief that we can win the three Test series. (Rightly or wrongly!  )

England are building nicely and looking dangerous at home which is ominous for their pool opponents in 2015. However, away from home I'm not so sure. Against Australia in Dunedin, NZ recorded their 30th consecutive home victory. When you look at certain stadiums against opponents like SA in Eden Park where they haven't won in almost 80 years, it becomes very intimidating.

England should rightly go to NZ in June with belief they can foot it with the best. But they'll find it's not quite the same playing away than it is at home, which has been pleasing for me to have the young players in the NZ team experience that before 2015. Going to be a great series and no doubt England will be received with a positive vibe from the NZ media who will recognise England are worthy opponents. Couldn't choose a better NH opponent to have a match series and can't wait. In a way the loss today will serve England better in terms of motivation as they'll feel they let slip a rare opportunity to get consecutive wins over NZ.

Oh yes agreed! Not the same at all for our lads playing at Eden Park. But think of how our chances would have looked if you'd given us the sort of tonking the talk of revenge had us fearing might happen (and you hoping  )? We're in a much, much better place than we might have been. And we can always look at the White Orcs in Auckland and know that English sides have done it before...

Lol. Not saying an England Test win let alone a series victory is any sort of certainty. But we should see a cracking series and we'll go into it with no psychological baggage. That's excellent news for England and also good for Rugby as a whole I'd say.

[GloriousEmpire]

Thank goodness DC went off when he did. Just no longer up to it. Perhaps his 100th eases the pressure to drop him now.

NZ's tactics payed off perfectly in the end. The doubt created with the kicking constantly ended up opening up the space for the Savea tries.

Again breakdown refereeing favoured the home side but that seems to be the norm now unfortunately.

Only Ireland now stand between the first unbeaten year in professional history...

[nathan]

What's going to happen when north aims for wade though?

He makes the tackle. Or at least acts as a speed bump until others get there. He'll have to do it in the AP!

True, I do hope fans give him a chance though and not chuck him on the scrap heap if he has a bad début.

[mystiroakey]

GE is the worst winner possible!

you are 40 years old mate.,.,

[nathan]

Thank goodness DC went off when he did. Just no longer up to it. Perhaps his 100th eases the pressure to drop him now.

NZ's tactics payed off perfectly in the end. The doubt created with the kicking constantly ended up opening up the space for the Savea tries.

Again breakdown refereeing favoured the home side but that seems to be the norm now unfortunately.

Only Ireland now stand between the first unbeaten year in professional history...

Exactly there plan  

[lostinwales]

What's going to happen when north aims for wade though?

How often in truth do you actually get that kind of one on one? Lets face it as long as Wade can slow him down there is always a good chance Robshaw will have teleported to the right place to complete the tackle anyways.

You also have to think of it the other way around. What is North going to do if he is one on one when Wade has the ball.

[Coltnet]

What's going to happen when north aims for wade though?

He makes the tackle. Or at least acts as a speed bump until others get there. He'll have to do it in the AP!

True, I do hope fans give him a chance though and not chuck him on the scrap heap if he has a bad début.

I think he would be fine. His pluses outweigh this negatives. We need to pick on form.

[Duty281]

9. Care
10. Farrell...maybe Burns
11. Yarde
12. Twelvetrees
13. Burrell
14. Wade
15. Brown

Possible Line-up 9-15 for England against France.

[nathan]

What's going to happen when north aims for wade though?

How often in truth do you actually get that kind of one on one? Lets face it as long as Wade can slow him down there is always a good chance Robshaw will have teleported to the right place to complete the tackle anyways.

You also have to think of it the other way around. What is North going to do if he is one on one when Wade has the ball.

I just keep getting flash backs of Lomu/Catt!

[nathan]

What's going to happen when north aims for wade though?

He makes the tackle. Or at least acts as a speed bump until others get there. He'll have to do it in the AP!

True, I do hope fans give him a chance though and not chuck him on the scrap heap if he has a bad début.

I think he would be fine. His pluses outweigh this negatives. We need to pick on form.

Very true, one thing I think Lancaster is trying to do is build experience beyond the first 15. That's something MJ didn't really do.

[Scrumpy]

How do you solve a problem like Englands backs!

Get the bbc to run a talent show on a Saturday evening?

[kiakahaaotearoa]

I wasn't happy with the kicking last week and today was even worse nganboy. What happened to our attacking restarts? All long kicks to the same part of the park. Had to have been instructions but wasn't happy to see it. Hopefully the NZ management will look at the replays and see that tactics needed to have changed quicker because they certainly didn't learn from the breakdown with last year's game.

What was pleasing was the character of the side to step it up when it mattered. Cruden's goalkicking was encouraging as he really needed to land his opportunities and did so. Shame Carter went off in his 100th match but would be good to see Barrett have some time as he played well in June against France and the third test against Ireland when he came on. All in all these games have been ideal for NZ to show that other teams can take the game to us and put themselves in a winning position. I won't deny that was a great start Cowshot but I'm really glad England came back and made us work for the win. That's how it'll be in 2015 in the knockout games. Knowing teams won't lie down when we get a lead or finding something deep down to step up is great rugby education for these young players. Kaino coming back will be a welcome addition though Luatua is certainly a handy player to have in the mix.

Big plaudits for Savea who was in a Paris hospital with a lung infection last week and came back with two crucial tries. That's 18 tries in 19 tests and his combination with Read down that left touchline was not only evident today but has been evident throughout this calendar year.

[Coltnet]

How do you solve a problem like Englands backs!

Get the bbc to run a talent show on a Saturday evening?

Now that's something I would watch! 

[Cowshot]

Savea and Reid were probably the best two players on either side and the difference between the sides today. Run close by Billy Vunipola though. And a few others like Launchbury and Hartley.

[beshocked]

Would be Interesting to hear what The Kiwi perspective is of Owen Farrell.

[Geordie]

Cowshot...really?, no mention of Lawes who was outstanding...

[kiakahaaotearoa]

I think beshocked Farrell's goal kicking is excellent and his kicking from hand was good but he did make a few errors. I remember he ran forward down the blind and then put in a right boot when the left was called for and it went into touch on the full. At times he was horribly out of sorts with the inside centre and there was clearly a lack of cohesion between the centres. That said, when Flood came on after his injury there seemed a general dip in performance in that area. That may well have been the tiring England forwards and the lack of quick ball but it all seemed very predictable. Then again, it was more the England pack performance that got them back into the game than the backline.

The young kid has got fire. Maybe too much sometimes but you can't fault his confidence. I think he's shown he's the form flyhalf but what is less clear is the centre combination. He's certainly a good pantomine villain but I think England should persist with him. The whole backline though need time together and then start to look for more creativity in their play. Then again I wasn't too impressed with much of the NZ creativity today so it's not by any means doom and gloom for the backs.

[beshocked]

Thanks for your thoughts kiakahaaotorea. I think people underestimate Farrell's physicality. He made a lot of tackles and smashed NZ players. Really got stuck in.

Nice to hear you think England should stick with him. I do too.

Of course he wasn't faultless. Most players aren't but it seems to be a popular sport to bash Farrell. I feel that he stood up as certainly did not look out of depth. Great strength of character IMO.

I feel the absence of Hartley and Farrell did harm England.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Momentum definitely changed with the England changes. Then again the game was opening up as were the gaps so SL would've been criticised if he didn't bring on players. Morgan was effective but the Youngs had a bad game. All very well to say in hindsight but the physical toll was evident and I think NZ's changes exacerbated the problem for England as they had real impact (though Crockett should be slapped thoroughly for his needless impact). Crucial errors and the finger of blame needs to be pointed at Youngs as his missed throw led to the crucial Savea try.

[mystiroakey]

Every player makes mistakes unless your name is BROWN

[Geordie]

What did people think of Englands carrying today. We have all been quite critical of a lack of it...do you think it improved today?

[king_carlos]

May isn't a good enough footballer. Foden covers wings excellently! Need players with all round games at international level!

Wade and Yarde for me with Foden on the bench covering back 3!

Really I think May has a terrific all round game for a guy his age! Very fast and powerful, good hands, strong in defence and reads the game very well. His positioning and work under the high ball is also solid from his time at FB and his brief time in the centres comes through in his passing game.

Has much more to offer than the options outside of Yarde and Wade IMO. Though I would agree an inform Foden is a big bonus to the squad given his versatility and consistency.

Nathan - Wade may not be the biggest but I'd back him to deal with a one on one with North a fair bit better than Ashton did in the 6N! The claims that he can't be picked over Ashton due to his defence are pretty questionable all things considered.

[king_carlos]

On a different note it will be interesting to see if any changes are made to the EPS for the 6N. Personally I'd look to bring a few guys from the Saxons in to have a look at developing the game plan a bit. Especially in the backs:

LH - Corbisiero, Vunipola, Marler
Hooker - Hartley, Youngs - Would like to see Webber training as a third choice ideally with Youngs still developing
TH - Cole, Wilson
Lock - Launchberry, Lawes, Parling, Attwood
Flanker - Robshaw, Wood, Kvesic, Haskell
No 8 - Morgan, Vunipola

SH - Youngs, Dickson, Care
FH - Farrell, Flood, Burns
Centre - Twelvetrees, Barritt, Daly, Trinder, Eastmond
Wing - Yarde, Wade, May
FB - Brown, Foden

That would be the sort of squad I'd be looking at currently.

[doctor_grey]

BY the way, this was a fan-effing-tastic match.
The ABs are a tough bunch and deserve whatever accolades are coming their way. The match was won on guts. One of the best matches I have watched in a long time.

[nathan]

May isn't a good enough footballer. Foden covers wings excellently! Need players with all round games at international level!

Wade and Yarde for me with Foden on the bench covering back 3!

Really I think May has a terrific all round game for a guy his age! Very fast and powerful, good hands, strong in defence and reads the game very well. His positioning and work under the high ball is also solid from his time at FB and his brief time in the centres comes through in his passing game.

Has much more to offer than the options outside of Yarde and Wade IMO. Though I would agree an inform Foden is a big bonus to the squad given his versatility and consistency.

Nathan - Wade may not be the biggest but I'd back him to deal with a one on one with North a fair bit better than Ashton did in the 6N! The claims that he can't be picked over Ashton due to his defence are pretty questionable all things considered.

Ive never said he can't be picked!

[Cowshot]

GeordieFalcon: Yes - should also have mentioned Lawes. Marler too came through a stern test with credit.

doctor: agree.

[Hood83]

I missed the game. Could anyone give me a quick run-down. Actually surprised we were that close so on the face of it, quite pleased. Would be incredible if the ABs go the full year unbeaten!

[yappysnap]

Man those All Blacks are good!!

Well done to England first of all. A really good game and I don't think anyone could argue if we had won it.

Positives: The starting pack look able to mix it with the best, we finally have that magic word; BALANCE. A lot of praise has to go to Rowntree for crafting the best England 8 of the last decade out of players that we all had some question marks about.

Negatives: Still quite a few sadly. Nothing huge but the backline balance isn't quite there. You get the feeling that even with Manu in there nothing really would have changed. The tactics for the backs aren't quite right yet but there is at least an idea of where we're going now. Lineout without Hartley is now just a minefield, Youngs can't play for England until he can hit his jumpers and Parling doesn't do enough to justify his place. Farrell is way off the attacking threat needed but if he can fix his tactical kicking he still might give enough for us. I'd take an ultra solid Farrell over any of the other options at the moment. Tomkins isn't our answer as back up to Manu. Although i'm not sure with the current tactics any 13 will look great, he just wanders in and out of games.

Still well done NZ, some stunning skills on display. And well done England, a brilliant performance but just not quite enough.

[maestegmafia]

Great day out close game and the best England performance of ten years

[Jhamer25]

First of all i Hate Owen Farrell the cocky little . Who the  does he think he is pushing Cruden like that?

Anyway unlucky England a really hard battle and i take my hat's off to you.
Personally I though Joe Marler was amazing and if you had won should have had MOM. He absolutely destroyed Franks at scrum time - well done sir.

We (northern hemisphere) are really close to cracking the big two southern hemisphere team but keep falling at the last hurdle
Just this Autumn now
Wales
England
and France have all come so close yet again this Autumn but have fallen in the last 15 minutes.
Sadly for you you are great at the breakdown but the All blacks are just that bit better which is what won them the game.

Well dont to the All blacks though they really are the best. Weren't there best today but still showed why they are the best

[thomh]

I would be very interested to know how our pack would have developed over the last two years if Johnson/Wells had still been around, selection and style-wise. Our pack just seem to have a whole new physical edge to them since Rowntree got the full forwards coaching job.

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