The fend

During the Wales vs springbok game there was a fend from Bismarck du Plessis on Liam Williams.

Habana has just received the ball within his 22, saw Hibbard on his outside, ran around him, fended of North and outpaced him, ran 60 meters down field, then pass inside to Bismarck du Plessis.

This is what happened next. Bismarck ran straight at Liam Williams, Williams went down low to presumably take Bismarck's legs, but instead of bringing his head down and out of the way to effect the tackle, he went down but kept his head up and into the tackle, rather than out of harms way.

Bismarck then put his fore arm out to fend Williams off, Williams were so low that Bismarck's fore arm barely managed to make contact with Williams via his fore arm as he was so low, but the momentum of the bulldozing un hit Williams and he went sprawling backwards and his head hit the turf rather hard, hence him going off with suspected concussion. He never returned to the field.

Now some suggests that it was an illegal fend. Others say it was nothing, it was a normal bulldozing run where the defender used the wrong technique.

NOw I know when it comes to Bismarck everyone is only looking at his fend on Messam and therefor anytime he fends a player it is seen as a deliberate attempt to injure a defender. so he rarely gets the benefit of the doubt.

Now when it comes to the legality of the fend I want to discuss the following aspects of the fend.

Fends are used by players all the time, there is the hand, the palm, the forearm and then of course the elbow which is seen as illegal as you may not fend with a leading elbow.

Usually the fend is aimed at the chest area as that is the most effective manner of stopping the momentum of the would be tackler. sometimes the aim is off or the defender goes too low or turns or whatever which causes the fend to hit the face, neck or other areas of the defender.

At times if mistimed, it can also completely miss the defender, or if poorly timed the elbow can hit the defender before the fore arm fend is executed.

NOw some suggested that the fend should be banned completely, in other words you may not fend with the fore arm, but I believe if you are going to ban the fend, you need to ban the fend completely, be it with the hand, the palm, the fore arm, as anyone of those can be executed poorly and cause injury.

Ask any martial arts expert and he will tell you that the palm fend is as dangerous as the elbow, you can generate more force with hitting a player on the chest or any other area as you can with an elbow, granted the elbow is harder and sharper, but not more dangerous than the palm.

I believe the injury to Liam Williams was de to the fact that his execution of the technique he used on Bismarck caused his concussion and not the fend from Bismarck

You are allowed by the laws, as a ball carrier,  to push someone away with an open hand. Note push - you cannot, according to the laws, throw your hand out like a quasi punch. So an open handed "hand off" can still be deemed dangerous and punished.

Leading with the free forearm is not legal. Maters not one jot whether it is actually dangerous, it is not legal. I have no axe to grind with Bismarck - I am not aware of the incident against NZ and feel he is quite comfortably the best hooker in the world. However if he is leadfing with the free forearm on a regular basis he could be in trouble on a regular basis.

Please note there seems to be an anomaly in that you can lead with the forearm if it is the arm carrying the ball. Still Law 10 would allow the ref to penalise such if it was deemed to be dangerous. Just they never do.

http://www.irb.com/newsmedia/mediazone/pressrelease/newsid=2040903.html

Viewgwent, in this case Rolland was right next to Bismarck when it happened. If he deemed it illegal he would have stopped the movement.

Just because the ref doesn't call it doesn't necessarily mean it's legal! Can't really see anybody calling it a foul though, Williams should have been booked for such a rubbish tackle. Great try with the quickness of Habana, directness, offload and great finish. Was it only me that thought the talking point was the yellow card? Very harsh.

Refs make mistakes all the time, just not as many as players. I really cannot remember the fend, so it probably was not overly dangerous - but the laws do deem it to be illegal.

No7&1/2

I too thought the yellow was harsh, but has come to expect it by now. We are being monitored very closely these days.

What was the yellow for biltong?

I'm missing all these controversies.

Fore arm to the throat (pushing not striking). Just an off the ball scuffle (not even that).

Hosea Gear on Earls started with an open hand and ended up being an elbow to the face. At times it's difficult to judge what it started out out to be. Like the Beast at Ellis Park initial contact seems to be vital and that's what Du Plessis was judged on at Eden Park.

The yellow for the two props was his most contreversial decision, he didn't have a clue what was happening

True, thanks 7.5, doesn't sound like much.

Hibbard was holding on to Louw at the breakdown, Louw tried to get away but Hibbard was adamant in holding onto Louw.

He got ticked off and pushed Hibbard on the chest in a downward movement on the chest, as Hibbard were pushed further away, the forearm slipped to his throat and Louw didn't let go.

'ello card for his troubles.

Biltong wrote:Hibbard was holding on to Louw at the breakdown, Louw tried to get away but Hibbard was adamant in holding onto Louw.

He got ticked off and pushed Hibbard on the chest in a downward movement on the chest, as Hibbard were pushed further away, the forearm slipped to his throat and Louw didn't let go.

'ello card for his troubles.

Tbf Louw should have known better , so the yellow is justified  

Bullsbok wrote:

Biltong wrote:Hibbard was holding on to Louw at the breakdown, Louw tried to get away but Hibbard was adamant in holding onto Louw.

He got ticked off and pushed Hibbard on the chest in a downward movement on the chest, as Hibbard were pushed further away, the forearm slipped to his throat and Louw didn't let go.

'ello card for his troubles.

Tbf Louw should have known better , so the yellow is justified  

True, he should have known the harder he pushes the further away Hibbard will go and as he is not pushing perpendicular to his chest his hand will slide in an upwards motion.  

It is all about science, isn't it?

When an immovable force is exerting pressure on a movable one, the energy will transfer and movement will occur.

And these slippery shirts don't help, that forearm must have just slid right up even though he didn't mean it;)

I thought Rolland did a good job actually. Apart from the Louewe yellow which was a nonsense.

The 2 props were warned in advance & continued to collapse so no problems there & I think Liam Williams will look back on that 'tackle' and learn from it.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I thought Rolland did a good job actually. Apart from the Louewe yellow which was a nonsense.

The 2 props were warned in advance & continued to collapse so no problems there & I think Liam Williams will look back on that 'tackle' and learn from it.

Rolland lost patience.
So he put the 2 packs on the uncontested naughty step for 10 minutes to think things over.
As a neutral.. I though that was a cool touch.

I don't think Louw would have been carded if he's just left it at pushing Hibbard downwards in the throat.  It was the final act of picking Hibbard up off the deck by the scruff of the collar and driving him into the ground that I think got him the card.  Like a mini body slam.  Still, IMO, it was only handbags and not worthy of a card.  But I guess in the eyes of the law it seemed like a violent act of sorts?

I didn't think bismarck's hand off was illegal. He hardly moved his hands from where they were and rather just braced himself for contact.

Hibbard knew what he was doing as was happy to get Louw sent off, he held onto him, wouldn't let him go off the ruck and caused Louw to react. Hibbard wasn't going to react as he drew Louw into a trap... reminds me of Ronaldo's wink a little bit. Not cheating just professional tricks of the trade.

So it is ok to use the forearm now .This would seem contrary to the current trend towards player welfare.Weird.I think that our Game is in a bit of a pickle at the moment

What was he supposed to do. Lift his arms above his head?

Bismarck had his arms in front of him at all times prior to contact. All he did was brace himself for contact which is a natural thing to do.

In about 5 hrs debate on here no doubt the consensus will be that he had a full arm punch on Williams.

Less dangerous then someone dropping their shoulder into their opponents chest at full pelt. Its a contact sport.

fa0019 wrote:What was he supposed to do. Lift his arms above his head?

Bismarck had his arms in front of him at all times prior to contact. All he did was brace himself for contact which is a natural thing to do.

In about 5 hrs debate on here no doubt the consensus will be that he had a full arm punch on Williams.

Less dangerous then someone dropping their shoulder into their opponents chest at full pelt. Its a contact sport.

Karate is also a contact sport but each sport has its own laws I believe. 

It was illegal? The referee didn't think so, had Williams not been injured (out of poor positioning) and it was played anywhere bar Cardiff no fans would have cried. Has he been cited?

fa0019 wrote:It was illegal? The referee didn't think so, had Williams not been injured (out of poor positioning) and it was played anywhere bar Cardiff no fans would have cried. Has he been cited?

Hope so.
Williams' clumsy tackle is a bit of a red herring.The use of the forearm would have been just as illegal if Williams was not injured surely?

If its cited and he's banned I will admit it is illegal. Until then I'm personally not convinced.

I don't think its completely street legal but its in the grey area and I understand why it was natural for him to do. There are dozens of things which are worse which go on every game and deemed legal. I saw Adam Jones using his feet on Flip at the ruck early on.... no one mentioned that. Looked a little clumsy but he was making contact.

it was a bad attempted tackle by liam .

I thought the yellow card was very harsh and the tackle by Williams was very poor, but I don't agree that leading with the forearm is acceptable.

I thought the Liam williams injury was just a poor tackle against a very big man.

The yellow card was a bit weak, but I can understand why it was given, the ref's under a bit of pressure and Louw is pushing a prone player i nthe chest and ends up getting his neck/throat. Potentially dangerous bit of nothing imo and the crwod were on the refs back from the very get go, he was probably looking to make some friends after the wc semi!

The fend, I feel a ball carrier should be allowed to protect himself and the ball, he shouldn't be forced to expose his ribs to tacklers!

Louw's card was a bit pathetic, not even worth a penalty I think.
Inverdale made a good point on this (I know, I said it!) when he mentioned that showing something like that on the big screen doesn't exactly help with an impartial decision.

Bath fan sides with his star player 'shocker'

Saying that, Bath fan sat next to me at the stadium thought it was stupid by the Saffa

Louw's yellow was weak: the IRB needs to watch these things, because if Louw's minor reaction to Hibbard's holding on is punished with a yellow, that'll mean in the future, in similar circumstances, Louw (or player in equivalent circumstance) will have to stop and plead with the ref to sort it out,...who knows - even ask the ref to go back a few phases on the big screen to sort it out, and then before we know it, it'll be soccer with players crying to the ref all the time, feigning injury (Messam, or even Brussouw in the WC)) to get the yellow card given to an opponent. Call me a nay-sayer, but I feel that this is the direction we're heading if those in power don't watch out.

To me it looked like Hibbard was stuck in a ruck and was bent backwards with a forearm in his throat. He didnt stop once he had made his point, he carried on - was no need for it

Mr Fishpaste wrote:Louw's yellow was weak: the IRB needs to watch these things, because if Louw's minor reaction to Hibbard's holding on is punished with a yellow, that'll mean in the future, in similar circumstances, Louw (or player in equivalent circumstance) will have to stop and plead with the ref to sort it out,...who knows - even ask the ref to go back a few phases on the big screen to sort it out, and then before we know it, it'll be soccer with players crying to the ref all the time, feigning injury (Messam, or even Brussouw in the WC)) to get the yellow card given to an opponent. Call me a nay-sayer, but I feel that this is the direction we're heading if those in power don't watch out.

I'm starting to notice it more and more. Farrell against the Baa Baas in the summer, Cooper against Yarde last week. Stupid little things looking for the reaction.

munkian wrote:Bath fan sides with his star player 'shocker'

Saying that, Bath fan sat next to me at the stadium thought it was stupid by the Saffa

Welshman was baying for a card 'shocker'! 

No, I agree it was stupid, when someone is holding your shirt like that dumping him on the floor is inevitably going to cause the ref/lineman to take an interest. I just feel that generally, cards should be for either punching/more violent offences, or for cynical play near the try line, rather than what happened.

Fairy nuff.

The binning of the props was mental

There were a lot of times in the Wales SA game I thought SA players were attempting to hurt as opposed to win, Bismark and other players all led into tackles with numerous body parts targetting tacklers faces. Liam Williams, Scott Williams, Bradley Davies, Alun Jones and Gethin Jenkins were all hurt and marked in the face.

Louw's attempt on Hibbard is hilarious, anyone defending that is one eyed or nuts, he repeatedly thrusts his elbow into Hibbards throat, bends him over a ruck, follows him to the floor where he uses his fists to thrust at his throat, hold his shirt while forcing his fist into his face, and does so well off the ball!

I'm not saying SA didn't deserve to win, they did comfortably, but I get the feeling there was a statement up front to hurt Welsh players whenever the chance arose. I will be watching the Scottish game with interest!

butterfingers wrote:There were a lot of times in the Wales SA game I thought SA players were attempting to hurt as opposed to win, Bismark and other players all led into tackles with numerous body parts targetting tacklers faces. Liam Williams, Scott Williams, Bradley Davies, Alun Jones and Gethin Jenkins were all hurt and marked in the face.

Louw's attempt on Hibbard is hilarious, anyone defending that is one eyed or nuts, he repeatedly thrusts his elbow into Hibbards throat, bends him over a ruck, follows him to the floor where he uses his fists to thrust at his throat, hold his shirt while forcing his fist into his face, and does so well off the ball!

I'm not saying SA didn't deserve to win, they did comfortably, but I get the feeling there was a statement up front to hurt Welsh players whenever the chance arose. I will be watching the Scottish game with interest!

You are spot on.
Wales haven't done "nasty" since the Moriarty brothers.Perhaps we need to get nasty if the refs are not sorting it.

butterfingers wrote:There were a lot of times in the Wales SA game I thought SA players were attempting to hurt as opposed to win, Bismark and other players all led into tackles with numerous body parts targetting tacklers faces. Liam Williams, Scott Williams, Bradley Davies, Alun Jones and Gethin Jenkins were all hurt and marked in the face.

Louw's attempt on Hibbard is hilarious, anyone defending that is one eyed or nuts, he repeatedly thrusts his elbow into Hibbards throat, bends him over a ruck, follows him to the floor where he uses his fists to thrust at his throat, hold his shirt while forcing his fist into his face, and does so well off the ball!

I'm not saying SA didn't deserve to win, they did comfortably, but I get the feeling there was a statement up front to hurt Welsh players whenever the chance arose. I will be watching the Scottish game with interest!

I don't think anyone is defending it... but that it was all a bunch of nothing in the first place. Hibbard riled him (almost certainly on purpose) and the fact that he didn't even react was testament to the point he was looking for a penalty, looking for Louw to strike him. Had anyone grabbed Hibbard like that in a random attack I can guarantee you he would have given as good as he got.... but that wasn't his aim.

It was handbags but it was very crafty by Hibbard and he got what he was looking for... a reaction from Louw and a yellow card.

Taffineastbourne wrote:

butterfingers wrote:There were a lot of times in the Wales SA game I thought SA players were attempting to hurt as opposed to win, Bismark and other players all led into tackles with numerous body parts targetting tacklers faces. Liam Williams, Scott Williams, Bradley Davies, Alun Jones and Gethin Jenkins were all hurt and marked in the face.

Louw's attempt on Hibbard is hilarious, anyone defending that is one eyed or nuts, he repeatedly thrusts his elbow into Hibbards throat, bends him over a ruck, follows him to the floor where he uses his fists to thrust at his throat, hold his shirt while forcing his fist into his face, and does so well off the ball!

I'm not saying SA didn't deserve to win, they did comfortably, but I get the feeling there was a statement up front to hurt Welsh players whenever the chance arose. I will be watching the Scottish game with interest!

You are spot on.
Wales haven't done "nasty" since the Moriarty brothers.Perhaps we need to get nasty if the refs are not sorting it.

I have noticed that, Hibbard, Jenkins, Warburton and Davies were everywhere Saturday, they played really well and their work rates were superb, however there is just no bite, no dark arts to push and wind up the opposition. Wales seem to come off games win or lose battered and bloodied, like victims.

Taffineastbourne wrote:

butterfingers wrote:There were a lot of times in the Wales SA game I thought SA players were attempting to hurt as opposed to win, Bismark and other players all led into tackles with numerous body parts targetting tacklers faces. Liam Williams, Scott Williams, Bradley Davies, Alun Jones and Gethin Jenkins were all hurt and marked in the face.

Louw's attempt on Hibbard is hilarious, anyone defending that is one eyed or nuts, he repeatedly thrusts his elbow into Hibbards throat, bends him over a ruck, follows him to the floor where he uses his fists to thrust at his throat, hold his shirt while forcing his fist into his face, and does so well off the ball!

I'm not saying SA didn't deserve to win, they did comfortably, but I get the feeling there was a statement up front to hurt Welsh players whenever the chance arose. I will be watching the Scottish game with interest!

You are spot on.
Wales haven't done "nasty" since the Moriarty brothers.Perhaps we need to get nasty if the refs are not sorting it.

That's the 'ammer! Get some nasty old school 'bit of dog' back in there!

Maybe not against South Africans though. They are massive.

butterfingers wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:

butterfingers wrote:There were a lot of times in the Wales SA game I thought SA players were attempting to hurt as opposed to win, Bismark and other players all led into tackles with numerous body parts targetting tacklers faces. Liam Williams, Scott Williams, Bradley Davies, Alun Jones and Gethin Jenkins were all hurt and marked in the face.

Louw's attempt on Hibbard is hilarious, anyone defending that is one eyed or nuts, he repeatedly thrusts his elbow into Hibbards throat, bends him over a ruck, follows him to the floor where he uses his fists to thrust at his throat, hold his shirt while forcing his fist into his face, and does so well off the ball!

I'm not saying SA didn't deserve to win, they did comfortably, but I get the feeling there was a statement up front to hurt Welsh players whenever the chance arose. I will be watching the Scottish game with interest!

You are spot on.
Wales haven't done "nasty" since the Moriarty brothers.Perhaps we need to get nasty if the refs are not sorting it.

I have noticed that, Hibbard, Jenkins, Warburton and Davies were everywhere Saturday, they played really well and their work rates were superb, however there is just no bite, no dark arts to push and wind up the opposition. Wales seem to come off games win or lose battered and bloodied, like victims.

You guys are acting like the is a whole other world out there. This is pro rugby now with citing commissions, TMO's and powers to touch referees. Rugby has moved on from its amateur days.... people who commit are often pulled up on it.

Lets not mistake hard rugby for illegal rugby. Collisions are massive. Chaps are 2-3st heavier, faster, fitter then even the 90s... collisions cause car crash type incidents  but it doesn't necessarily mean its illegal.

fa0019 wrote:

butterfingers wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:

butterfingers wrote:There were a lot of times in the Wales SA game I thought SA players were attempting to hurt as opposed to win, Bismark and other players all led into tackles with numerous body parts targetting tacklers faces. Liam Williams, Scott Williams, Bradley Davies, Alun Jones and Gethin Jenkins were all hurt and marked in the face.

Louw's attempt on Hibbard is hilarious, anyone defending that is one eyed or nuts, he repeatedly thrusts his elbow into Hibbards throat, bends him over a ruck, follows him to the floor where he uses his fists to thrust at his throat, hold his shirt while forcing his fist into his face, and does so well off the ball!

I'm not saying SA didn't deserve to win, they did comfortably, but I get the feeling there was a statement up front to hurt Welsh players whenever the chance arose. I will be watching the Scottish game with interest!

You are spot on.
Wales haven't done "nasty" since the Moriarty brothers.Perhaps we need to get nasty if the refs are not sorting it.

I have noticed that, Hibbard, Jenkins, Warburton and Davies were everywhere Saturday, they played really well and their work rates were superb, however there is just no bite, no dark arts to push and wind up the opposition. Wales seem to come off games win or lose battered and bloodied, like victims.

You guys are acting like the is a whole other world out there. This is pro rugby now with citing commissions, TMO's and powers to touch referees. Rugby has moved on from its amateur days.... people who commit are often pulled up on it.

Lets not mistake hard rugby for illegal rugby. Collisions are massive. Chaps are 2-3st heavier, faster, fitter then even the 90s... collisions cause car crash type incidents  but it doesn't necessarily mean its illegal.

Well JDV was happy to call for TMO replays for an illegal act in his opinion, which was a tiny touch of contact from a defender to ball carrier, did you see Williams face? Did you see the blood pooring from the mouth of Bradley Davies after Etzebeth 'made contact' with his face?

I'm not talking real punishable acts, I'm talking ruck actions when noone can possibly see, holding players after the ruck for a bit long, the forearms, elbows, foreheads making contact with the faces etc.. All teams get away with little things every game, but for some reason Wales seem to be beaten up at every game, no matter the result.

So you think because a guy has blood pouring from his eye its automatically illegal play? Any player who does that sort of thing will get caught out eventually... there are few hiding places from a TMO.

Everyone says this about the boks but when do they get cited, when do they get banned? No more then anyone else.

There were a fair few Boks running around with marks on their faces as well. Don't believe Wales are angels.

FA, hes not aiming this directly at the boks on their own, but more so as a lack of it from Wales.

I agree with him. the SA vs Wales game just happens to be the more recent. It will be the same against Arg I imagine, and then so Australia too.

Taffineastbourne wrote:So it is ok to use the forearm now .This would seem contrary to the current trend towards player welfare.Weird.I think that our Game is in a bit of a pickle at the moment

No Taff. it is not ok to use the forearm!

A "hand off" or "fend" is defined by the IRB as
"an action taken by a ball carrier to fend off an opponent by using the palm of the hand."

if you use your forearm or elbow then it is not your palm and is therefore illegal.

Folk saying it is to brace for impact is a nonsense as well. You can place your arms over your ribs to "brace" as they say but an arm sticking out is not allowed!

The "fend" used in question here was illegal but Williams was injured due to his own actions! I do not think Bismark will be cited in this case!

Perhaps this is the difference between SA and Wales: this attitude displayed above. Certainly when I was learning to play rugby in SA the coaches always used to say: when you tackle or take the ball into contact, make sure they feel it (ie. make sure it hurts!) so that they'll think twice about taking you on next time! And in my opinion there's nothing wrong with that attitude on the rugby field...the flip side of it was of course: if you get hurt, don't whinge and whine about it. I suspect, watching some footage of rugby from yester-year, that this would have been an attitude shared by the likes of JPR Williams etc (case in point: watch him run the length of the field to join in the fighting at the 'Battle of Boet Erasmus' - Lions Tour 1974). So perhaps it is that kind of attitude that the Welsh are missing these days.

Mr Fishpaste, the poster above is Scottish not Welsh.

I'm not seeing much whinging here. Just discussion. That's the point of the forum. Don't forget the person who started this thread in the first place is South African (Biltong). Some people have pointed out that a forearm is illegal, and have quoted the rules. Others have discussed it. But as soon as we discuss anything on this forum people like you come wading in talking about crying and whinging. It's good debate. Let it happen. Don't try to stop it by calling people cry babies.

The Boks are all thugs. Frankly. The lot of them should be banned. Mid 2015 would be a good time for that to start happening.