FFR bribe their clubs to save the H-Cup

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/2013/1111/485986-heineken-cup-france-offer/
I found this on RTE picking up on an article in Midi-Olympique

"French clubs have been offered €2 million each by the FFR to commit to playing in the Heineken Cup next season, according to reports in French media.

Pierre Camou, the Federation Francaise de Rugby president, is reported to have chaired a secret meeting at Paris’s Charles-de-Gaulle airport last week which was attended by representatives of the Top 14 clubs, as well as several of their English counterparts.

The claims were reported in French newspaper Midi Olympique.

The FFR chief is insistent that any European competition next season will continue to be governed by the European Rugby Cup.

Camou has been strongly opposed from outset of the announcement of plans for the Rugby Champions Cup.

According to Midi Olympique, the FFR is now ready to ensure that the ERC remains the only show in town by delivering a payment of up to €2 million to each of the French clubs.

Camou has reportedly also proposed the idea of signing any individual players who wish to continue playing in the Heineken Cup onto central federal contracts with the FFR, similar to what the IRFU does with its star players.

Camou is insistent that what the French clubs are planning to do in breaking away to form the Rugby Champions Cup is in contravention of existing French rugby laws.

When the plans for the RCC were first announced, the FFR were quick to warn the Ligue National de Rugby that they had no right to organise a competition without the direct consent of both the FFR and the International Rugby Board.

It is understood that Camou has support from several of the individual French clubs, including Toulon and Biarritz."

I'm surprised that they need to resort to bribery. Or that the FFR has €28 million to bribe them with. To me it smacks of desperation. This could work though.

This has been talked about on geoff998's thread.  Toulon, Biarritz and Bayonne are allegedly all confirmed as siding with the FFR amongst other unnamed Top14 clubs.  I said quite a while back that the Top14 clubs weren't united on going with the PRL and their new competition and that is definitely now the case.

Whats most intriguing, aside from the offer of 2million is that Camou says its simply illegal for any LNR clubs to go with the new competition.  I doubt however that this message will go down well with Jackie "HC is dead" Lorenzetti or Paul "ERC are finished" Goze.  So either the LNR will pursue their own Union through the courts (which is going to be incredibly difficult given that some of the Top14 clubs represented by the LNR are siding with said union) or the RCC is dead in the water and the PRL along with it.

Why are you surprised they need to resort to bribery? Pierre Camou needs to use every trick in the book.

Toulon are only backing Pierre Camou because of plans to limit foreign players which would hit them hard.

The irony is that the plan to limit foreign players would surely be better for the French international side.

http://www.therugbyblog.com/toulon-president-boudjellal-breaks-ranks-and-denounces-rugby-champions-cup


I would say the most influential French club is Toulouse. I would be worried if they were part of Camou's inner circle.

i wonder where the Eur28m is coming from?

also, Eur2m per club for a 7 year contract (current ERC is 7 years) works out less than Eur300k per annum. calculation for top14 clubs is how that compares to the increase in money per club they might expect if they play in the BT-RCC.

quinsforever wrote:i wonder where the Eur28m is coming from?

also, Eur2m per club for a 7 year contract (current ERC is 7 years) works out less than Eur300k per annum. calculation for top14 clubs is how that compares to the increase in money per club they might expect if they play in the BT-RCC.

Its not for 7 years, its for them to be playing in the HC under the ERC next season and you can really see why the likes of Biarritz and Bayonne are going for it given their financial troubles.

yes it is for 7 years (if that is the length of the new ERC PA). in order to play in an ERC-run HC next season, particpants will be required to sign a new Participation Agreement. so its a one-off payment for signing a new ERC participation agreement.

if they didnt have to sign the ERC PA, then the French clubs should take the money for the 1 year which you seem to think it is for, and then join the RCC the next year. HC and ERC would still be screwed.

beshocked wrote:Why are you surprised they need to resort to bribery? Pierre Camou needs to use every trick in the book.

Toulon are only backing Pierre Camou because of plans to limit foreign players which would hit them hard.

The irony is that the plan to limit foreign players would surely be better for the French international side.

http://www.therugbyblog.com/toulon-president-boudjellal-breaks-ranks-and-denounces-rugby-champions-cup


I would say the most influential French club is Toulouse. I would be worried if they were part of Camou's inner circle.

Putting International players on central contract will be all the incentive Toulouse will want. They have been complaining about the financial burden of having so many internationals for a long time now.

Sorry if this was brought up on another thread already.

I'm surprised that they need to resort to bribery because the FFR must agree to any cross border competition for it to be legal, and the minister for sport has to sanction it, and they will need IRB approval to get referees.

Personally I think that the most likely result of this upheaval in France is that most of the clubs will refuse to play in any cross border competition and just expand the Top 14. Guaranteed income, no legal battles.

Another interesting point in this article is the FFR looking to get more control of the players in these negotiations. If this is their priority then they may well compromise with the clubs if they think it's going to strengthen their national side. "We'll approve of your competition if we get to centrally contract the players"

quinsforever wrote:if they didnt have to sign the ERC PA, then the French clubs should take the money for the 1 year which you seem to think it is for, and then join the RCC the next year. HC and ERC would still be screwed.

According to Midi Olympique it is just to be playing in the HC next season.

"A REPORT IN rugby newspaper Midi Olympique claims that the FFR (Fédération Française de Rugby) has offered the French clubs €2 million each to commit to playing in the Heineken Cup next season."

Taken from:

http://www.thescore.ie/ffr-heineken-cup-2-million-1170241-Nov2013/

Those clubs wouldn't give a rats ass about 300'000 euro a year. That wouldn't even pay one top players annual salary.  Its a one off payment of 2 million euro for them to commit to the ERC and HC for next season, attached to that may well be a longer term contract with the ERC but that does not mean they are getting this money over a 7 year period.

So sin e do you think Toulouse are part of FFR's circle?

Intotouch wrote:Sorry if this was brought up on another thread already.

I'm surprised that they need to resort to bribery because the FFR must agree to any cross border competition for it to be legal, and the minister for sport has to sanction it, and they will need IRB approval to get referees.

Personally I think that the most likely result of this upheaval in France is that most of the clubs will refuse to play in any cross border competition and just expand the Top 14. Guaranteed income, no legal battles.

Another interesting point in this article is the FFR looking to get more control of the players in these negotiations. If this is their priority then they may well compromise with the clubs if they think it's going to strengthen their national side. "We'll approve of your competition if we get to centrally contract the players"

i agree that if the top14 refuse to re-join the HC, then the FFR will extract concessions on domestic players and maybe central contracting in exchange for authorising the RCC.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

quinsforever wrote:if they didnt have to sign the ERC PA, then the French clubs should take the money for the 1 year which you seem to think it is for, and then join the RCC the next year. HC and ERC would still be screwed.

According to Midi Olympique it is just to be playing in the HC next season.

"A REPORT IN rugby newspaper Midi Olympique claims that the FFR (Fédération Française de Rugby) has offered the French clubs €2 million each to commit to playing in the Heineken Cup next season."

Taken from:

http://www.thescore.ie/ffr-heineken-cup-2-million-1170241-Nov2013/

Those clubs wouldn't give a rats ass about 300'000 euro a year. That wouldn't even pay one top players annual salary.  Its a one off payment of 2 million euro for them to commit to the ERC and HC for next season, attached to that may well be a longer term contract with the ERC but that does not mean they are getting this money over a 7 year period.

i never said it was paid over the life of the ERC participation agreement, just that it equates to less than eur300k per annum whether its paid at the beginning, end or evenly.

this is why i think it's desperate. because you correctly point out, eur300k per annum is peanuts for the top14 to tie themselves into ERC and HC for another 7 years. The problem that FFR has is that the budgets of the top14 clubs combined, dwarf the available financial resources of the FFR, so i just dont see how any "bribe" can be big enough to really get them to tie themselves into ERC and HC (especially if the english clubs might not join - that would seriously damage the value to any broadcaster, and hence affect monies to the clubs) for the length of a new participation agreement.

You may not be able to see how any "bribe" can be big enough but apparently several Top14 clubs disagree with you and as pointed out above some will no doubt be enticed by the central contracts particularly the clubs with a lot of French internationals such as Toulouse.

I think, if the reports are true, that the €2 million is also being offered to the D2 clubs with the T14 clubs being offered first bite of the cherry.
Camou has been against the PRL/LNR proposed new tournament from the start but, until now for the most part, has been holding his cards firmly to his chest whilst PRL play out their aces.
I'm not sure if €28 million is on the table? Not that FFR couldn't afford it, and not that it wouldn't be worth it to them to gain greater control of the clubs.

Munchkin wrote:I think, if the reports are true, that the €2 million is also being offered to the D2 clubs with the T14 clubs being offered first bite of the cherry.
Camou has been against the PRL/LNR proposed new tournament from the start, but until now, for the most part, has been holding his cards firmly to his chest whilst PRL play out their aces.
I'm not sure if €28 million is on the table? Not that FFR couldn't afford it, and not that it wouldn't be worth it to them to gain greater control of the clubs.

we are all speculating on speculative reports.

eur2m x 14 = eur28m.

that is a big number. would be 33% of the total WRU revenues (which include all HC monies), almost 50% of IRFU revenues, maybe 25% of RFU revenues (cant find the FFR numbers). and that's before you start to add in the ongoing cost of the purported central contracting of french players.

the Australian union is on the verge of bankruptcy as a result of its over-generous central contracts with star players, so these are real issues.

quickest way for the oft-referred statutory powers of FFR to get revoked by the minister for sport would be if the FFR bankrupts itself and impoverishes french rugby...

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I think, if the reports are true, that the €2 million is also being offered to the D2 clubs with the T14 clubs being offered first bite of the cherry.
Camou has been against the PRL/LNR proposed new tournament from the start, but until now, for the most part, has been holding his cards firmly to his chest whilst PRL play out their aces.
I'm not sure if €28 million is on the table? Not that FFR couldn't afford it, and not that it wouldn't be worth it to them to gain greater control of the clubs.

we are all speculating on speculative reports.

eur2m x 14 = eur28m.

that is a big number. would be 33% of the total WRU revenues (which include all HC monies), almost 50% of IRFU revenues, maybe 25% of RFU revenues (cant find the FFR numbers). and that's before you start to add in the ongoing cost of the purported central contracting of french players.

the Australian union is on the verge of bankruptcy as a result of its over-generous central contracts with star players, so these are real issues.

quickest way for the oft-referred statutory powers of FFR to get revoked by the minister for sport would be if the FFR bankrupts itself and impoverishes french rugby...

I don't know where you are pulling those figures from but 28m euro isn't close to being 50% of the IRFU's turnover and the idea that 28m euro would bankrupt French rugby seems outlandish at best.

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I think, if the reports are true, that the €2 million is also being offered to the D2 clubs with the T14 clubs being offered first bite of the cherry.
Camou has been against the PRL/LNR proposed new tournament from the start, but until now, for the most part, has been holding his cards firmly to his chest whilst PRL play out their aces.
I'm not sure if €28 million is on the table? Not that FFR couldn't afford it, and not that it wouldn't be worth it to them to gain greater control of the clubs.

we are all speculating on speculative reports.

eur2m x 14 = eur28m.

that is a big number. would be 33% of the total WRU revenues (which include all HC monies), almost 50% of IRFU revenues, maybe 25% of RFU revenues (cant find the FFR numbers). and that's before you start to add in the ongoing cost of the purported central contracting of french players.

the Australian union is on the verge of bankruptcy as a result of its over-generous central contracts with star players, so these are real issues.

quickest way for the oft-referred statutory powers of FFR to get revoked by the minister for sport would be if the FFR bankrupts itself and impoverishes french rugby...

Thanks for adding that up for me, quins. I was struggling with 2x14, but it all makes sense now  

Yes, speculation, but not wild speculation such as FFR going bankrupt... If the reports are true, and if Camou is not for turning, then the RCC will not see the light of day, and there will be an ERC run HEC next year. So many 'ifs and buts' though...

Artful_Dodger wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I think, if the reports are true, that the €2 million is also being offered to the D2 clubs with the T14 clubs being offered first bite of the cherry.
Camou has been against the PRL/LNR proposed new tournament from the start, but until now, for the most part, has been holding his cards firmly to his chest whilst PRL play out their aces.
I'm not sure if €28 million is on the table? Not that FFR couldn't afford it, and not that it wouldn't be worth it to them to gain greater control of the clubs.

we are all speculating on speculative reports.

eur2m x 14 = eur28m.

that is a big number. would be 33% of the total WRU revenues (which include all HC monies), almost 50% of IRFU revenues, maybe 25% of RFU revenues (cant find the FFR numbers). and that's before you start to add in the ongoing cost of the purported central contracting of french players.

the Australian union is on the verge of bankruptcy as a result of its over-generous central contracts with star players, so these are real issues.

quickest way for the oft-referred statutory powers of FFR to get revoked by the minister for sport would be if the FFR bankrupts itself and impoverishes french rugby...

I don't know where you are pulling those figures from but 28m euro isn't close to being 50% of the IRFU's turnover and the idea that 28m euro would bankrupt French rugby seems outlandish at best.

total expenditure for IRFU 2010,11,12 was EUR58m, 55m, 58m. hence almost 50%. WRU total revenues i recall were a bit more at about £60m (they do more concerts and other stuff at millenium stadium i guess).

Munchkin wrote:I think, if the reports are true, that the €2 million is also being offered to the D2 clubs with the T14 clubs being offered first bite of the cherry.
Camou has been against the PRL/LNR proposed new tournament from the start but, until now for the most part, has been holding his cards firmly to his chest whilst PRL play out their aces.
I'm not sure if €28 million is on the table? Not that FFR couldn't afford it, and not that it wouldn't be worth it to them to gain greater control of the clubs.

That's how I read it too. Camou should be able to rustle up enough T14 and ProD2 to bolster ERC competitions, which could be rehashed to suit the numbers available.

Would LNR raise the stakes in response, however, by voting to expel its "ERC" members from T14 & ProD2 (assuming that they were in the majority and that LNR's governance allowed it)? A potential schism, perhaps leading to one of the factions seeking a Euro League? Would the rich English clubs jump on board, deserting their poorer erstwhile business associates and would the bigger celtic "franchises" desert Pro12 (and possibly HC) for a Euro Super League.

Very speculative on my part, I know.

quinsforever wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I think, if the reports are true, that the €2 million is also being offered to the D2 clubs with the T14 clubs being offered first bite of the cherry.
Camou has been against the PRL/LNR proposed new tournament from the start, but until now, for the most part, has been holding his cards firmly to his chest whilst PRL play out their aces.
I'm not sure if €28 million is on the table? Not that FFR couldn't afford it, and not that it wouldn't be worth it to them to gain greater control of the clubs.

we are all speculating on speculative reports.

eur2m x 14 = eur28m.

that is a big number. would be 33% of the total WRU revenues (which include all HC monies), almost 50% of IRFU revenues, maybe 25% of RFU revenues (cant find the FFR numbers). and that's before you start to add in the ongoing cost of the purported central contracting of french players.

the Australian union is on the verge of bankruptcy as a result of its over-generous central contracts with star players, so these are real issues.

quickest way for the oft-referred statutory powers of FFR to get revoked by the minister for sport would be if the FFR bankrupts itself and impoverishes french rugby...

I don't know where you are pulling those figures from but 28m euro isn't close to being 50% of the IRFU's turnover and the idea that 28m euro would bankrupt French rugby seems outlandish at best.

total expenditure for IRFU 2010,11,12 was EUR58m, 55m, 58m. hence almost 50%. WRU total revenues i recall were a bit more at about £60m (they do more concerts and other stuff at millenium stadium i guess).

Expenditure 58m, you said above that total revenue was 58m.

any T14 teams wanting to compete in HC would need to be authorised by LNR, or leave the LNR. Camou needs to convince a sufficient majority of T14 teams to carry the decision of LNR as a whole (prob simple majority vote is all that would be required).

ProD2 teams in the HC...that would spell the end of the HC as a commercially successful competition. So in that sense i would welcome it.

Bribe or...incentive

or bit of both?

quinsforever wrote:any T14 teams wanting to compete in HC would need to be authorised by LNR, or leave the LNR. Camou needs to convince a sufficient majority of T14 teams to carry the decision of LNR as a whole (prob simple majority vote is all that would be required).

ProD2 teams in the HC...that would spell the end of the HC as a commercially successful competition. So in that sense i would welcome it.

You are really going off on a rather incoherent tangent now.  Where do you get the idea of ProD2 teams playing in the HC?  How do you know Top14 clubs need the LNR's permission to play in the HC?  I find that very doubtful considering Toulon have told the LNR to go and stuff themselves with the RCC and said that they will be playing in the HC next season.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I think, if the reports are true, that the €2 million is also being offered to the D2 clubs with the T14 clubs being offered first bite of the cherry.
Camou has been against the PRL/LNR proposed new tournament from the start, but until now, for the most part, has been holding his cards firmly to his chest whilst PRL play out their aces.
I'm not sure if €28 million is on the table? Not that FFR couldn't afford it, and not that it wouldn't be worth it to them to gain greater control of the clubs.

we are all speculating on speculative reports.

eur2m x 14 = eur28m.

that is a big number. would be 33% of the total WRU revenues (which include all HC monies), almost 50% of IRFU revenues, maybe 25% of RFU revenues (cant find the FFR numbers). and that's before you start to add in the ongoing cost of the purported central contracting of french players.

the Australian union is on the verge of bankruptcy as a result of its over-generous central contracts with star players, so these are real issues.

quickest way for the oft-referred statutory powers of FFR to get revoked by the minister for sport would be if the FFR bankrupts itself and impoverishes french rugby...

I don't know where you are pulling those figures from but 28m euro isn't close to being 50% of the IRFU's turnover and the idea that 28m euro would bankrupt French rugby seems outlandish at best.

total expenditure for IRFU 2010,11,12 was EUR58m, 55m, 58m. hence almost 50%. WRU total revenues i recall were a bit more at about £60m (they do more concerts and other stuff at millenium stadium i guess).

Expenditure 58m, you said above that total revenue was 58m.

no i didnt. i said Eur28m was almost 50% of IRFU revenues. revenues were a little bit higher at EUR65, 63m, 62m for 2010,11,12 respectively. And the revenue numbers in the last two years were boosted a bit by advance selling of 10 year debentures. So expenditures are a better metric anyway.

you need to pick a different battle.

Ok so you said 56m was the IRFU's revenue above, now you are saying that it is 65 million.  In other words 28 million is not 50% of the IRFU's revenue as you also said above?

By the way any chance you can post some sources for these figures?

Artful_Dodger wrote:

quinsforever wrote:any T14 teams wanting to compete in HC would need to be authorised by LNR, or leave the LNR. Camou needs to convince a sufficient majority of T14 teams to carry the decision of LNR as a whole (prob simple majority vote is all that would be required).

ProD2 teams in the HC...that would spell the end of the HC as a commercially successful competition. So in that sense i would welcome it.

You are really going off on a rather incoherent tangent now.  Where do you get the idea of ProD2 teams playing in the HC?  How do you know Top14 clubs need the LNR's permission to play in the HC?  I find that very doubtful considering Toulon have told the LNR to go and stuff themselves with the RCC and said that they will be playing in the HC next season.

Of course the LNR decides how the LNR is run and who gets to play in it. IF Toulon show them two fingers and join the HC on their own, LNR could boot them out of top14. simples. so in that sense yes they do need authorisation of LNR if they want to play in professional domestic rugby in France.

ProD2 teams comes from the same rumour mill midi olympique. its another weak bluff by Camou saying that the money might be given to ProD2 teams in exchange for them competing in the HC. not sure what you are confused about?

Artful. i really cant be arsed to do this again. Go read the IRFU annual reports. page 39 consolidated income and expenditure reports for 2010,11,12.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU_ANNUAL_REPORT_20122013.pdf

65m was revenue in 2010. has fallen to 62m last year. 28m is pretty close to 50% of 62m revenue, and very close to 50% of 57m expenditure.

I see, can you cite where Camou has said the money is being offered to the ProD2 clubs?

Does anyone know how the voting powers of LNR are structured?

One team, one vote, or perhaps diminished voting rights for its ProD2 members?

i can, but i'm not going to. you can easily find the rumours (which is after all what the above article is too) yourself.

Here's a fiver from me to the cause

quinsforever wrote:i can, but i'm not going to. you can easily find the rumours (which is after all what the above article is too) yourself.

i'll give you a clue though...goebbels thornley wrote about it...

quinsforever wrote:Artful. i really cant be arsed to do this again. Go read the IRFU annual reports. page 39 consolidated income and expenditure reports for 2010,11,12.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU_ANNUAL_REPORT_20122013.pdf

65m was revenue in 2010. has fallen to 62m last year. 28m is pretty close to 50% of 62m revenue, and very close to 50% of 57m expenditure.

Quinns, I presume you are very worried about the eRFU latest borrowings:

Despite being in the middle of a £76million upgrade of Twickenham and a £26million investment in the community game to ensure the governing body maximises the advantage of hosting the 2015 World Cup, the strong financial returns should ensure the RFU is debt-free within 14 months. After the £56million loan for the south stand development was paid off last December, the RFU took out a new “revolving credit” unsecured facility of £50million with RBS and has borrowed £40million this year.

Very worrying times for English rugby  

beshocked wrote:So sin e do you think Toulouse are part of FFR's circle?

No, I don't. But they will take the money because that is a real issue for them.

By the way, the President of Toulouse chairs the ERC Commerical Committee who sold the tv rights to Sky.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Does anyone know how the voting powers of LNR are structured?

One team, one vote, or perhaps diminished voting rights for its ProD2 members?

No. But as far as I know their licence to operate as a league is up at the end of next month, so the FFR could actually not renew it.

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Artful. i really cant be arsed to do this again. Go read the IRFU annual reports. page 39 consolidated income and expenditure reports for 2010,11,12.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU_ANNUAL_REPORT_20122013.pdf

65m was revenue in 2010. has fallen to 62m last year. 28m is pretty close to 50% of 62m revenue, and very close to 50% of 57m expenditure.

Quinns, I presume you are very worried about the eRFU latest borrowings:

Despite being in the middle of a £76million upgrade of Twickenham and a £26million investment in the community game to ensure the governing body maximises the advantage of hosting the 2015 World Cup, the strong financial returns should ensure the RFU is debt-free within 14 months. After the £56million loan for the south stand development was paid off last December, the RFU took out a new “revolving credit” unsecured facility of £50million with RBS and has borrowed £40million this year.

Very worrying times for English rugby  

You seemed to have missed that bit Sin

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I think, if the reports are true, that the €2 million is also being offered to the D2 clubs with the T14 clubs being offered first bite of the cherry.
Camou has been against the PRL/LNR proposed new tournament from the start but, until now for the most part, has been holding his cards firmly to his chest whilst PRL play out their aces.
I'm not sure if €28 million is on the table? Not that FFR couldn't afford it, and not that it wouldn't be worth it to them to gain greater control of the clubs.

That's how I read it too. Camou should be able to rustle up enough T14 and ProD2 to bolster ERC competitions, which could be rehashed to suit the numbers available.

Would LNR raise the stakes in response, however, by voting to expel its "ERC" members from T14 & ProD2 (assuming that they were in the majority and that LNR's governance allowed it)? A potential schism, perhaps leading to one of the factions seeking a Euro League? Would the rich English clubs jump on board, deserting their poorer erstwhile business associates and would the bigger celtic "franchises" desert Pro12 (and possibly HC) for a Euro Super League.

Very speculative on my part, I know.

I would doubt very much that LNR has the power to expel any committed to ERC. On what legal grounds could they expel a club for wanting to compete in the existing, and legitimate, European competition even if they had the power to do so?
As for setting up a rival league, or breakaway competition, I guess that might be possible for PRL/LNR, but they would be doing so without Union sanction, or support. By 'bigger Celtic franchises', I take it you refer to some of the Welsh regions? Maybe they could, but again they would be doing so without WRU, and IRB, sanction. It would be a massive risk for them in particular, and possibly play into the WRU hands. New Regions would be formed.

broadlandboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Artful. i really cant be arsed to do this again. Go read the IRFU annual reports. page 39 consolidated income and expenditure reports for 2010,11,12.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFU_ANNUAL_REPORT_20122013.pdf

65m was revenue in 2010. has fallen to 62m last year. 28m is pretty close to 50% of 62m revenue, and very close to 50% of 57m expenditure.

Quinns, I presume you are very worried about the eRFU latest borrowings:

Despite being in the middle of a £76million upgrade of Twickenham and a £26million investment in the community game to ensure the governing body maximises the advantage of hosting the 2015 World Cup, the strong financial returns should ensure the RFU is debt-free within 14 months. After the £56million loan for the south stand development was paid off last December, the RFU took out a new “revolving credit” unsecured facility of £50million with RBS and has borrowed £40million this year.

Very worrying times for English rugby  

You seemed to have missed that bit Sin

I didn't miss what that theory is based on.

Now don't laugh. But the upturn is the RFU's fortunes seems to be based on tickets to the ABs match going on Ebay for 1,000  

I'm not sure I approve of the RFU flogging tickets on ebay  

I would prefer rfu to make that money over ticket touts...

quinsforever wrote:I would prefer rfu to make that money over ticket touts...

Why not be upfront and just sell them for a 1000 on ticket master then?

i dont know anything about this sin. i couldnt care less how the RFU sells its tickets. If some chumps are willing to pay way over the odds to entertain corporate clients, and that money ultimately finds its way back into English rugby i would much prefer that to ticket touts scalping the premium.

i thought the game was all sold out anyway? are you sure its not touts on ebay selling them?

Munchkin wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I think, if the reports are true, that the €2 million is also being offered to the D2 clubs with the T14 clubs being offered first bite of the cherry.
Camou has been against the PRL/LNR proposed new tournament from the start but, until now for the most part, has been holding his cards firmly to his chest whilst PRL play out their aces.
I'm not sure if €28 million is on the table? Not that FFR couldn't afford it, and not that it wouldn't be worth it to them to gain greater control of the clubs.

That's how I read it too. Camou should be able to rustle up enough T14 and ProD2 to bolster ERC competitions, which could be rehashed to suit the numbers available.

Would LNR raise the stakes in response, however, by voting to expel its "ERC" members from T14 & ProD2 (assuming that they were in the majority and that LNR's governance allowed it)? A potential schism, perhaps leading to one of the factions seeking a Euro League? Would the rich English clubs jump on board, deserting their poorer erstwhile business associates and would the bigger celtic "franchises" desert Pro12 (and possibly HC) for a Euro Super League.

Very speculative on my part, I know.

I would doubt very much that LNR has the power to expel any committed to ERC. On what legal grounds could they expel a club for wanting to compete in the existing, and legitimate, European competition even if they had the power to do so?
As for setting up a rival league, or breakaway competition, I guess that might be possible for PRL/LNR, but they would be doing so without Union sanction, or support. By 'bigger Celtic franchises', I take it you refer to some of the Welsh regions? Maybe they could, but again they would be doing so without WRU, and IRB, sanction. It would be a massive risk for them in particular, and possibly play into the WRU hands. New Regions would be formed.

I just love the fact that FFR's hope as pinned on the team owner that detests them (toulon) and the team guaranteed to be relegated and hence completely irrelevant to HC anyway (biarritz). when i look at things like that, it hardly seems that the divide and conquer strategy is carrying the day. boudjellal divides himself, and biarritz will be divided when they get relegated... 

Munchkin wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I think, if the reports are true, that the €2 million is also being offered to the D2 clubs with the T14 clubs being offered first bite of the cherry.
Camou has been against the PRL/LNR proposed new tournament from the start but, until now for the most part, has been holding his cards firmly to his chest whilst PRL play out their aces.
I'm not sure if €28 million is on the table? Not that FFR couldn't afford it, and not that it wouldn't be worth it to them to gain greater control of the clubs.

That's how I read it too. Camou should be able to rustle up enough T14 and ProD2 to bolster ERC competitions, which could be rehashed to suit the numbers available.

Would LNR raise the stakes in response, however, by voting to expel its "ERC" members from T14 & ProD2 (assuming that they were in the majority and that LNR's governance allowed it)? A potential schism, perhaps leading to one of the factions seeking a Euro League? Would the rich English clubs jump on board, deserting their poorer erstwhile business associates and would the bigger celtic "franchises" desert Pro12 (and possibly HC) for a Euro Super League.

Very speculative on my part, I know.

I would doubt very much that LNR has the power to expel any committed to ERC. On what legal grounds could they expel a club for wanting to compete in the existing, and legitimate, European competition even if they had the power to do so?
As for setting up a rival league, or breakaway competition, I guess that might be possible for PRL/LNR, but they would be doing so without Union sanction, or support. By 'bigger Celtic franchises', I take it you refer to some of the Welsh regions? Maybe they could, but again they would be doing so without WRU, and IRB, sanction. It would be a massive risk for them in particular, and possibly play into the WRU hands. New Regions would be formed.

In answer to your first para, dunno, dunno and dunno. However, LNR is a business that relies upon solidarity amongst its stakeholders, so I'd expect there to be sanctions in place, or that could be voted into place by a majority, for breaking that solidarity. Could well be a field day for the lawyers, though.

The prospect of a Euro League has been rumbling for years, not exclusively amongst the club fraternity, but the blazers too. Suppose a minority of French clubs took Camou's money then found they had no domestic league to play in except Federale 1 (barring lawsuits, of course). So, they go abroad to both Unions and clubs (with FFR's approval) - "How about ditching the HC and Pro12, or the PRL and we'll have a 16 or 18 or whatever team league for the whole season? We could do conferences just like Super rugby, and everything." Might IRFU be interested in throwing 3 provinces into it, a couple of the Welsh clubs, SRFU, etc, and might the sugar-daddied English clubs be interested in such a competition?

Just speculation.

intersting idea ww/8, but i think the discontent and resentment from the current mess is going to prevent any grand compacts for a while...

unless you mean the welsh regions joining the AP when the AP and Rabo contracts come up for renewal. Would be a win-win for AP and WRR, and wouldnt require the consent of anyone else so might be just about manageable.  

Sin é wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Does anyone know how the voting powers of LNR are structured?

One team, one vote, or perhaps diminished voting rights for its ProD2 members?

No. But as far as I know their licence to operate as a league is up at the end of next month, so the FFR could actually not renew it.

That's interesting, thanks.

So Camou could be stallling until the New Year when he gets dealt a pair of Aces.

quins= "I just love the fact that FFR's hope as pinned on the team owner that detests them (toulon) and the team guaranteed to be relegated and hence completely irrelevant to HC anyway (biarritz). when i look at things like that, it hardly seems that the divide and conquer strategy is carrying the day. boudjellal divides himself, and biarritz will be divided when they get relegated...Laugh "

The FFR's hope is not pinned on Toulon. Where do you get that from? The FFR are trusting, according to reports, very much on the incentive of offering CCs to those teams who continue to compete in an ERC run HEC, along with the cherry on top of €2million. If not all T14 sign up then that offer is extended to D2. Failing that, which is won't, then FFR block any new competition by legal means.
Maybe FFR want to break LNR?....

zippo chance he doesnt renew. FFRs "statutory" powers will get whipped out from under them faster than a very fast thing in the ensuing very quick and dirty dustup of Camou by the clubs. He is on a very thin political ice in regards to the administration of the professional clubs, and the resolve of French politicians, like their military, tends to evaporate at the first sign or real protest.

same for IRB not approving an anglo-french professional cross border competition. the IRB does not want to risk having its powers circumscribed by an EU court hence why it will be unwilling to so do.

is interesting that Camou has stepped a long way back from his mid-august rhetoric of not authorising the top14 and LNR...suspect he got a wakeup call from the minister of sports which is why he is trying the bribery tactic rather than blunt force.

Munchkin wrote:quins= "I just love the fact that FFR's hope as pinned on the team owner that detests them (toulon) and the team guaranteed to be relegated and hence completely irrelevant to HC anyway (biarritz). when i look at things like that, it hardly seems that the divide and conquer strategy is carrying the day. boudjellal divides himself, and biarritz will be divided when they get relegated...Laugh "

The FFR's hope is not pinned on Toulon. Where do you get that from? The FFR are trusting, according to reports, very much on the incentive of offering CCs to those teams who continue to compete in an ERC run HEC, along with the cherry on top of €2million. If not all T14 sign up then that offer is extended to D2. Failing that, which is won't, then FFR block any new competition by legal means.
Maybe FFR want to break LNR?....

only 2 teams mentioned as siding with FFR are Toulon and Biarritz. they are the only ones "out of the closet". hardly going to worry the rest of the top14 owners is it, boudjellal and soon-to-be-relegated Biarritz? or maybe you know different?

quinsforever wrote:

same for IRB not approving an anglo-french professional cross border competition. the IRB does not want to risk having its powers circumscribed by an EU court hence why it will be unwilling to so do.

is interesting that Camou has stepped a long way back from his mid-august rhetoric of not authorising the top14 and LNR...suspect he got a wakeup call from the minister of sports which is why he is trying the bribery tactic rather than blunt force.

Just lol and lol again  

You really do talk an awful lot of nonsense.