Not again...

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 14 Nov 2013, 11:42 am

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/rugby-faletau-happy-turn-top-14-044316700--spt.html

'Faletau is set to win his 28th cap when Wales host Argentina on Saturday, so there has been little time to reflect and regroup following last weekend's punishing 24-15 defeat against South Africa.

"That was up there with one of the most physical games I've played in, and it took its toll," Faletau added.

"We've got to recover and get ourselves ready for Argentina this weekend, which will be another physical challenge. We lost to them last year, and hopefully it will be a better result this time .

"Argentina are big brutes, so we've got to match their physicality and their forwards. I think we managed to match South Africa's physicality, but we just couldn't get enough points on the board."

--------------------

So in other words, no lessons have been learnt from last Saturday.

Why must we take on the opposition where they're strongest? Why must we play the kind of game they want us to play?

We don't need to beat them at their own game, we just need to score more points! Attack their weaknesses, not their strengths!

by SecretFly Thu 14 Nov 2013, 11:55 am

If they're hitting you, they're hitting you. You can avoid some of the physicality some of the time but not all the physicality all of the time. Wink

To avoid all of it, you'd have to run away from them rather than towards them - not a good tactic in rugby.

by fa0019 Thu 14 Nov 2013, 11:57 am

Wales should have enough mind to beat ARG. If not then I think they should seriously worry as that team has been put to the sword by AUS, SA, ENG, NZ this season.

by SecretFly Thu 14 Nov 2013, 12:00 pm

fa0019 wrote:Wales should have enough mind to beat ARG. If not then I think they should seriously worry as that team has been put to the sword by AUS, SA, ENG, NZ this season.

All sides above Wales in the rankings no not a ful blown surprise there, fa Wink

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 14 Nov 2013, 12:01 pm

I'm not suggesting that, Fly. (I think you know I'm not!) But I'm starting to get the impression that outmuscling the opposition has become more important than beating them. Like before the Boks game when Rob Howley kept going on about it being an armwrestle. Of course it's going to be a physical game, but talk about not boxing clever.

by Poorfour Thu 14 Nov 2013, 12:07 pm

As I've said on another thread, Gatland has an exceptional bunch of physical specimens at his disposal and a game plan based on power. It works up to a certain level because eventually it will break down a team if you can do it long enough.

It has historicallly come unstuck when one or more of 3 things happens: 1) You don't have all the requisite players available; 2) you're facing a team that can absorb the pressure for 80 minutes; 3) you're facing a team that can create something from nothing or give as good as it gets.

All 3 of those were true against SA. 2 of them will be true against Argentina. 2 of them will be true against Australia.

by SecretFly Thu 14 Nov 2013, 12:07 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'm not suggesting that, Fly. (I think you know I'm not!) But I'm starting to get the impression that outmuscling the opposition has become more important than beating them. Like before the Boks game when Rob Howley kept going on about it being an armwrestle. Of course it's going to be a physical game, but talk about not boxing clever.

I'm only really messing around Luckless...as I know exactly what you mean - only too well.
Had you listened to the many many threads on Ireland over the years, you'd have heard quite a few of us make the same comments. 'Why the hell do we go up to a high value team's level one week and down to a low value team's level the next?' - was the call of many with me being particularly animated on it!
I always took Italy as an example. Every year, we'd get into a muck battle with them for no other reason than to...'respect them', was always kinda Kidney's line on it. And I'd say 'Respect them, by getting into a forwards dominated scrap with them when we could slice them instead?'

So I honestly do know what you mean, behind the divilment Wink

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 14 Nov 2013, 12:11 pm

It's as if we have to prove a point in winning. We should take a tip from electricity and take the path of least resistance.

Electricity. They had a great side in the '80s.

by fa0019 Thu 14 Nov 2013, 12:17 pm

Outside of their match with Georgia they have conceded 40 tries in 9 matches. Its not a vintage ARG side this year and with no Lobbe they lose a great deal of strength.

Can't see anything bar a convincing Wales win myself.

by Geordie Thu 14 Nov 2013, 12:20 pm

Wales should cruise to a victory here.

England only played for 40 mins (annoyingly) and still won at a canter...

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 14 Nov 2013, 12:21 pm

I'll take any kind of win, but I'd love to see us play some football in the process. We didn't look like scoring a try last Saturday. There wasn't much creativity on show - unless you count Rhys Priestland attempting to to a Matilda and force a bouncing ball into touch with the power of his mind. picard

by Geordie Thu 14 Nov 2013, 12:25 pm

Want to see lack of creativity...watch us (England) play.....Wales will be fine..

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 14 Nov 2013, 12:28 pm

You need a playmaker at outside half. Flood has caused us problems when he's played against us. Farrell's never a playmaker.

by Casartelli Thu 14 Nov 2013, 12:51 pm

"I think we managed to match South Africa's physicality, but we just couldn't get enough points on the board........"

Maybe they are two different things?

by The Saint Thu 14 Nov 2013, 1:44 pm

The same tactics put 41 points past Aus, that's why he won't change tactics. If we don't just try and hold them up front then run them around a bit I'll be surprised, that's how every team has beaten Arg this season. Hopefully Allen and North get to see the ball, but with Biggar at 10 you just never know.

by jimmyinthewell68 Thu 14 Nov 2013, 1:56 pm

we was in the game right up to the last dodgy try but south Africa are a better side then us physically and mentally . pumas not the same team from last year and Wales certainly isn't . Wales to win by 20

by munkian Thu 14 Nov 2013, 2:15 pm

Hes a number 8 - hes not going to say 'We'll dance away from their forwards' is he ? Very Happy

by Scrumpy Thu 14 Nov 2013, 2:18 pm

If Wales did lose this weekend (I don't think they will) serious questions would have to be asked of the coaching team.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 14 Nov 2013, 2:20 pm

munkian wrote:Hes a number 8 - hes not going to say 'We'll dance away from their forwards' is he ?

I've inferred a hell of a lot from very little, haven't I? I must have been in a mood this morning! Laugh

I've read what Gatland has said today about wanting the players to express themselves and play what's in front of them, so I take back a lot of my criticism here.

by butterfingers Thu 14 Nov 2013, 2:21 pm

Scrumpy wrote:If Wales did lose this weekend (I don't think they will) serious questions would have to be asked of the coaching team (with regards to SH opposition)

by Scrumpy Thu 14 Nov 2013, 2:38 pm

21 out of 22 against the BIG 3. Whistle

by jimmyinthewell68 Thu 14 Nov 2013, 2:50 pm

Scrumpy wrote:21 out of 22 against the BIG 3.

by Scrumpy Thu 14 Nov 2013, 2:56 pm

Its a stat that shouldn't be forgotten Very Happy

No matter how much Gatland has achieved he has failed against these guys year after year.

by GloriousEmpire Thu 14 Nov 2013, 2:59 pm

You'd expect Wales to win by more than England. Given they are the 6N champs.

by majesticimperialman Thu 14 Nov 2013, 2:59 pm

We didn't look like scoring a try last Saturday. Doh

That because you did not score a try last staurday, ok. thumbsup

by Casartelli Thu 14 Nov 2013, 3:00 pm

Scrumpy wrote:21 out of 22 against the BIG 3.

You can prove anything with stats!

One 6N title in a decade would suggest England are rubbish, which of course they aren't.

50 England caps would suggest Dylan Hartley is a good player. And English.

by Scrumpy Thu 14 Nov 2013, 3:06 pm

But 21 defeats out of 22 games is awful.

Andy Robinson had a better record for Scotland and he quit.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 14 Nov 2013, 3:09 pm

Scrumpy wrote:But 21 defeats out of 22 games is awful.

Yes, it is. Who's claiming otherwise?

by Guest Thu 14 Nov 2013, 3:10 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:We didn't look like scoring a try last Saturday.

That because you did not score a try last staurday, ok.

What are you on about? Please don't try and be clever, as it doesn't become you.

by Scrumpy Thu 14 Nov 2013, 3:12 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:But 21 defeats out of 22 games is awful.
Yes, it is. Who's claiming otherwise?

Someone saying you can prove anything by stats and then they have a go at England to deflect attention away from that very embarrassing stat.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 14 Nov 2013, 3:19 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:We didn't look like scoring a try last Saturday.

That because you did not score a try last staurday, ok.

I'm awestruck by your wisdom. notworthy

by Casartelli Thu 14 Nov 2013, 3:23 pm

Scrumpy wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:But 21 defeats out of 22 games is awful.
Yes, it is. Who's claiming otherwise?
Someone saying you can prove anything by stats and then they have a go at England to deflect attention away from that very embarrassing stat.

You started it.

Throwing stats around willy nilly off topic.

by Scrumpy Thu 14 Nov 2013, 3:28 pm

Casartelli wrote:You started it.

Throwing stats around willy nilly off topic.

Hardly off topic, having a go at England is off topic.

Any way how long does Gatland have to turn things around against the SH teams?

by fa0019 Thu 14 Nov 2013, 3:30 pm

Scrumpy wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:But 21 defeats out of 22 games is awful.
Yes, it is. Who's claiming otherwise?
Someone saying you can prove anything by stats and then they have a go at England to deflect attention away from that very embarrassing stat.

Well its not like England or anyone elses in the NH has a record worth shouting about.... its like 2 rats arguing over crumbs dropped from the kings (3N) table.

Since 2008 here is the number of games lost vs. 3N opposition.

Scotland 06/09 = 67%.
England 14/19 = 74%.
Ireland 11/14 = 79%.
France 14/17 = 82%.
Wales 21/22 = 96%.

However that ranking is adverse to 6N success of the same period

Wales - 3 6N & 2 GS
France - 1 6N & 1 GS
Ireland - 1 6N & 1 GS
England - 1 6N
Scotland - none

not sure what those combined means bar a negative correlation between success vs 3N sides and 6N tournament success.

by Casartelli Thu 14 Nov 2013, 3:33 pm

30-3

How's you liking them stats, Scrumps?

Very Happy

by Scrumpy Thu 14 Nov 2013, 3:37 pm

Casartelli wrote:30-3

How's you liking them stats, Scrumps?

Thats a score from one game that is in the past, not a stat.

21 out of 22 is a stat! thumbsup

Anyway time to move on. Wink

by Casartelli Thu 14 Nov 2013, 3:46 pm

Scrumpy wrote:
Casartelli wrote:30-3

How's you liking them stats, Scrumps?

Thats a score from one game that is in the past, not a stat.

21 out of 22 is a stat!

Anyway time to move on.

Yeah, but a stat from the past......

by fa0019 Thu 14 Nov 2013, 3:46 pm

Scrumpy wrote:
Casartelli wrote:30-3

How's you liking them stats, Scrumps?

Thats a score from one game that is in the past, not a stat.

21 out of 22 is a stat!

So is this Scrumpy... over the same period Scotland have won 33% of their games vs. 3N sides. England 21%.

by munkian Thu 14 Nov 2013, 3:48 pm

Casartelli wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:21 out of 22 against the BIG 3.

You can prove anything with stats!

One 6N title in a decade would suggest England are rubbish, which of course they aren't.

50 England caps would suggest Dylan Hartley is a good player. And English.

by Guest Thu 14 Nov 2013, 3:50 pm

Scrumpy wrote:
Casartelli wrote:You started it.

Throwing stats around willy nilly off topic.

Hardly off topic, having a go at England is off topic.

Any way how long does Gatland have to turn things around against the SH teams?

Until his contract is up, I would imagine

by Dontheman Thu 14 Nov 2013, 4:12 pm

Casartelli wrote:30-3

How's you liking them stats, Scrumps?

by munkian Thu 14 Nov 2013, 4:12 pm

Just because England's be all and end all is beating the odd SH team doesn't mean everyone else's is. I like winning tournaments and we seem to be doing that fine

We have to beat Aus and Eng to get out of our group - and we've got beating you licked Wink

by fa0019 Thu 14 Nov 2013, 4:18 pm

munkian wrote:Just because England's be all and end all is beating the odd SH team doesn't mean everyone else's is. I like winning tournaments and we seem to be doing that fine

We have to beat Aus and Eng to get out of our group - and we've got beating you licked

2 years out isn't a great indicator though of RWC success.

Here is a genuine list of the world's best teams 2 years out of RWCs

89 - NZ... KO in SF 91.
93 - FRA & AUS... KO in SF & QF 95 respectively.
97 - NZ... KO in SF 99.
01 - AUS... KO in Final 03.
05 - NZ... KO in QF 07.
09 - SA... KO in QF 11.

Out of the worlds best sides at the time 2 years out... only 1 has ever reached the final and none have ever won the tournament.

by Scrumpy Thu 14 Nov 2013, 4:22 pm

munkian wrote:Just because England's be all and end all is beating the odd SH team doesn't mean everyone else's is. I like winning tournaments and we seem to be doing that fine

That's odd as I thought Wales were putting everything into their international game (at the expense of domestic rugby) yet they can't beat the guys they really want to beat, your World Class players aren't getting any younger especially your props.

Very Happy

by munkian Thu 14 Nov 2013, 4:27 pm

I know, if only we had Marler Rolling Eyes

by Casartelli Thu 14 Nov 2013, 4:29 pm

Scrumpy wrote:
munkian wrote:Just because England's be all and end all is beating the odd SH team doesn't mean everyone else's is. I like winning tournaments and we seem to be doing that fine
That's odd as I thought Wales were putting everything into their international game (at the expense of domestic rugby) yet they can't beat the guys they really want to beat, your World Class players aren't getting any younger especially your props.

Yes, it is statistically proven that props age faster than players in other positions. Hence they inevitably end up losing a yard of pace.

by Scrumpy Thu 14 Nov 2013, 4:29 pm

Thats true, he was the main sporting headline the other night as he was passed fit for the NZ game.

That did make me laugh.

by Scrumpy Thu 14 Nov 2013, 4:30 pm

Once you've lost a yard or two you never get it back. thumbsup

by munkian Thu 14 Nov 2013, 4:31 pm

We have a fair few props coming through to be fair, if our AJ replacement comes through alive then fair play to him

by jimmyinthewell68 Thu 14 Nov 2013, 4:39 pm

we hold our hand we can't beat the big 3 but isn't samoa and Tonga SH TEAMS Very Happy

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