Does Welsh Crushing Win Put AI's In Perspective?

Wow. Wales were just awesome. Neutered Aegentina up front as England did and then trampled them with creative and intensely accurate finishing.

That underlines their position as 6n champs and the best team in Europe as far as I'm concerned.

If we look at the rest of the results in balance, it just takes me back to those few bad calls that helped England out in that Australia game. How different the complexion might be of this AI if Brown had been called in touch correctly, and Hartley's obstruction correctly penalised?

England have managed just one try in the backs aside from those efforts. A true indictment of their return to traditional pommy rugby.

Wales alone stand as a beacon of progressive modern rugby by my account. Let's hope their front line players return from injury soon so that we can see a true test of the contrasting styles in the 6N.

 

GloriousEmpire wrote:Wow. Wales were just awesome. Neutered Aegentina up front as England did and then trampled them with creative and intensely accurate finishing.

That underlines their position as 6n champs and the best team in Europe as far as I'm concerned.

If we look at the rest of the results in balance, it just takes me back to those few bad calls that helped England out in that Australia game. How different the complexion might be of this AI if Brown had been called in touch correctly, and Hartley's obstruction correctly penalised?

England have managed just one try in the backs aside from those efforts. A true indictment of their return to traditional pommy rugby.

Wales alone stand as a beacon of progressive modern rugby by my account. Let's hope their front line players return from injury soon so that we can see a true test of the contrasting styles in the 6N.

 

Wales were pretty poor in attack to be honest. We botched loads of opportunities. Took some good scores though obviously. But a better team could probably have been up in the 60's and 70's.

I know that GE is trying to cause a sh@t storm inter-NH bun fight, and he'll probably succeed, but as we all know that comparing one team's performance/result to another's against a 3rd team just isn't a good barometer. Haven't seem the England game but I imagine it's better than Wales would have done scoreline wise, for what it's worth.

Anyone who can get within 8 of the Blacks and hold a lead at one stage have to be the in-form side.

Not seen the game but read various reports that with a bit more maturity and development then this England side will be the ones to beat come WC 2015

Seeing Argentina all season, had Wales not won the match by at least 20 it would have been worrying. Haven't seen the match but will do shortly.

Their match against Australia will be very interesting.

As a Welshman I hate to admit it the best UK side performance today was England. To get within 9 points of the All Blacks is pretty impressive.

Wales thumped a very poor Argentina side and Ireland were completely outplayed by a very impressive Australia.

It will be interesting to see how Scotland get on against South Africa, as they were ferocious against Wales last week, so can they keep up that level of aggression?

hmmn.. even the 2013 6n's wooden spooners finished just 8 points short of a win over the AB's...

Exactly. I thought France were in more danger of winning to be honest.

Well done for beating Argentina. Shame Wales can't beat any of the other Championship Sides.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Wow. Wales were just awesome. Neutered Aegentina up front as England did and then trampled them with creative and intensely accurate finishing.

That underlines their position as 6n champs and the best team in Europe as far as I'm concerned.

If we look at the rest of the results in balance, it just takes me back to those few bad calls that helped England out in that Australia game. How different the complexion might be of this AI if Brown had been called in touch correctly, and Hartley's obstruction correctly penalised?

England have managed just one try in the backs aside from those efforts. A true indictment of their return to traditional pommy rugby.

Wales alone stand as a beacon of progressive modern rugby by my account. Let's hope their front line players return from injury soon so that we can see a true test of the contrasting styles in the 6N.

  :censored:hole

GloriousEmpire wrote:Exactly. I thought France were in more danger of winning to be honest.

Interestingly, results so far don't really endorse the perceived gap between NH/SH (6 v 4ns), at least in terms of performance/scorelines

SANZAR teams have only dropped one game so far - and that in very dubious circumstances.

Anyone else feel that the comparisons between lancaster's lot and the RWC winning England side of a decade ago might've been a bit premature?

Great performance by England today but Twelvetrees was the obly decent back. That was the difference. Watched the welsh match when I got home and comparitively having seen Wales and England vs Argentina Wales are a superior team with talent throughout that England just do not have.

The OP is right, this game vs Argentina today showed a good welsh team putting a far inferior side to the sword in attack, set piec and defence and using a fourth or fifth choice tighthead and a 20 year old pro rugby rookie in the centre.

Yeah maes, I agree.
I saw quite a bit of powerful running and team confidence... despite the slippery pitch. They were busting tackles and continually shrugging off the Argies left, right and centre whenever I flicked over for a quick update. North made a couple of epic runs too.

As an example, I was chatting with CJ the other day on the merits of Chris Robshaw. Someone he rates very highly and I do too but I had never seen him in the same enlightened manner CJ does.

Today I concluded that CJ is right Robshaw works very very hard during a match. But in so he doesn't do much positively for the greater effort of his team. He works hard but his effort awards England very little.

Watching McCaw, Messam, Hooper, O'Brien, Heaslip, Dausitoir, Warburton and Tipuric they might do less in a game but they contribution gains so much more. They play a more intelligent roll at flank forward.

Tell you what though, very impressed with Tom Wood

maestegmafia wrote:Great performance by England today but Twelvetrees was the obly decent back. That was the difference. Watched the welsh match when I got home and comparitively having seen Wales and England vs Argentina Wales are a superior team with talent throughout that England just do not have.

Have put the two things in bold that I'd like to disagree with here. Firstly, Brown was also excellent in the backs. No arguments from me about our 11, 13, and 14 though, other than the fact that none of them would have been playing without injury.

Secondly, I don't see that Wales have talent throughout that England can't match. Guys like North are obviously on a different level to Ashton, for example, but England's pack beat the %%%% out of the best team in the world's today for most of the game, and were also well on top of Australia and Argentina up front. Our backs aren't functioning at all, particularly without Tuilagi, but in the forwards I'd say we have talent to match anyone. Corbs, Vunipola, Hartley, Cole Launchbury, Lawes, Wood, Robshaw, Vunipola 2 and Morgan are a seriously top group of players. Marler was also excellent today and is third choice.

Look guys(anglo,welshies) just dont rise to the nonsense- both teams are on the up..

mystiroakey wrote:Look guys(anglo,welshies) just dont rise to the nonsense- both teams are on the up..

or we can just have a laff  

fa0019 wrote:Seeing Argentina all season, had Wales not won the match by at least 20 it would have been worrying. Haven't seen the match but will do shortly.

Their match against Australia will be very interesting.

Know when to beat a team when they are down.

I feel sorry for Argetnina, there just no up to it all yet; the rugby championship clearly took it out of them.

Harsh saying we if we didn't win by 20 it would be worrying. On their day Argentina can be crucial. They might still have something left int he tank after last weeks second half show

he has just created another 3 or 4 wum threads- feick me i am out of here.. The dude has gone nuts on it

mystiroakey wrote:Look guys(anglo,welshies) just dont rise to the nonsense- both teams are on the up..

There are some real idiots on this site

thomh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Great performance by England today but Twelvetrees was the obly decent back. That was the difference. Watched the welsh match when I got home and comparitively having seen Wales and England vs Argentina Wales are a superior team with talent throughout that England just do not have.

Have put the two things in bold that I'd like to disagree with here. Firstly, Brown was also excellent in the backs. No arguments from me about our 11, 13, and 14 though, other than the fact that none of them would have been playing without injury.

Secondly, I don't see that Wales have talent throughout that England can't match. Guys like North are obviously on a different level to Ashton, for example, but England's pack beat the %%%% out of the best team in the world's today for most of the game, and were also well on top of Australia and Argentina up front. Our backs aren't functioning at all, particularly without Tuilagi, but in the forwards I'd say we have talent to match anyone. Corbs, Vunipola, Hartley, Cole Launchbury, Lawes, Wood, Robshaw, Vunipola 2 and Morgan are a seriously top group of players. Marler was also excellent today and is third choice.

England pack did a lot of huffing and puffing but they didn't blow anyone's house down in afraid. The problem is the one dimensional approach. Look at England's 8's. Giant lumbering ball carrying line breaking battering rams . Zero subtlety. Both identical rolly Polly skill free lumps.

Can't imagine either scoring the fine try that Kieran Read went in for. Neither will combine in silky passing relays with an outside back...

England have grunt in spades. But there is no balance.

Still waiting to hear why someone that hates everything about England and the English so much stays in the country ...

GloriousEmpire wrote:

thomh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Great performance by England today but Twelvetrees was the obly decent back. That was the difference. Watched the welsh match when I got home and comparitively having seen Wales and England vs Argentina Wales are a superior team with talent throughout that England just do not have.

Have put the two things in bold that I'd like to disagree with here. Firstly, Brown was also excellent in the backs. No arguments from me about our 11, 13, and 14 though, other than the fact that none of them would have been playing without injury.

Secondly, I don't see that Wales have talent throughout that England can't match. Guys like North are obviously on a different level to Ashton, for example, but England's pack beat the %%%% out of the best team in the world's today for most of the game, and were also well on top of Australia and Argentina up front. Our backs aren't functioning at all, particularly without Tuilagi, but in the forwards I'd say we have talent to match anyone. Corbs, Vunipola, Hartley, Cole Launchbury, Lawes, Wood, Robshaw, Vunipola 2 and Morgan are a seriously top group of players. Marler was also excellent today and is third choice.

England pack did a lot of huffing and puffing but they didn't blow anyone's house down in afraid. The problem is the one dimensional approach. Look at England's 8's. Giant lumbering ball carrying line breaking battering rams . Zero subtlety. Both identical rolly Polly skill free lumps.

Can't imagine either scoring the fine try that Kieran Read went in for. Neither will combine in silky passing relays with an outside back...

England have grunt in spades. But there is no balance.

Them's be the ups and downs of sport.... go figure!

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Can't imagine either scoring the fine try that Kieran Read went in for. Neither will combine in silky passing relays with an outside back...

England have grunt in spades. But there is no balance.

No, but then Read has been the outstanding forward in the world this year. Doesn't mean that the England pack weren't in control generally, particularly before Hartley went off.

Interesting that you say England have grunt in spades but no balance. The major concern for England in the pack in 2013 has been that we have too many athletic forwards who cover the ground well and have good hands, but not enough lumps doing the work up front. We don't have an 8 like Kieran Read, but then only New Zealand do. I'd still say our pack on the whole is a match for anyone.

Matching what though? Ultimately England manufactured only one try despite apparently "dominating" and "controlling" and all the wonderful subjective adjectives being lauded on them.

To me it looked like a poor man's England 2003. Lots of huffing and puffing. But the All Blacks kept sneaking out the back door of their brick house and stealing all the apples.

Wales comprehensively outplayed England's pack as did SA last time out so im not sure where this confidence is coming from to be honest.

New Zealand didn't play well today. It was a very disappointing performance considering the style and panache with which they have been playing.

If they want to finish their tour unbeaten they will need to step up their composure.

Winning when you don't play well is the sign of true champions isn't it? Like We were told of England in the last two weeks?

maestegmafia wrote:New Zealand didn't play well today. It was a very disappointing performance considering the style and panache with which they have been playing.

If they want to finish their tour unbeaten they will need to step up their composure.

Of course it couldn't be anything to do with England playing well. Never is.

Also, given the respective results of the England and Ireland over the last two years, I'm not sure how you figure the last bit out.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Exactly. I thought France were in more danger of winning to be honest.

You sir, are a sweaty plum muncher of epic proportions. Not satisfied with just enjoying your teams impressive display you are peddling your usual vile brand of mockery and derision. I despise you with every fibre of my being and the sooner you are banned... yet again... the better. And I dont particularly give a Poopie if this gets me in trouble with the mods.

Every other kiwi and to be fair the home nations fans have been gracious in their comments & observatiins regarding todays game. yet you demonstrate further what an utter scumbag you are.

God you p1ss me off.

thomh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:New Zealand didn't play well today. It was a very disappointing performance considering the style and panache with which they have been playing.

If they want to finish their tour unbeaten they will need to step up their composure.

Of course it couldn't be anything to do with England playing well. Never is.

Also, given the respective results of the England and Ireland over the last two years, I'm not sure how you figure the last bit out.

Think that if you want but you along with many English posters say that same thing all the time and again, and once more this England side fail when they are tested.

England put in their best performance in years today, possibly their best in a decade. They did well against a great side, but that great side did not play as well as they usually do. Maybe the hoodoo of last year affected them psychologically..??? Probably the same thing that will cause Wales to lose to Australia in a fortnight...!!!

When England took the lead, they didn't know what to do with it, better and worse sides than England would have closed out that game, England couldn't do that.

To be fair a 2 point lead with 20 minutes to go against the ABs is hardly a position to be thinking about closing out a game

Heaf wrote:To be fair a 2 point lead with 20 minutes to go against the ABs is hardly a position to be thinking about closing out a game

Any lead against an opposition team that talented and you should be trying to close the game out...

Sorry maes I disagree on that - maybe if there were a couple of minutes left but not 20 - where do you draw the line? Would you say if a team gets the first penalty in a match they should try to close out the game from there?

With the way the line out fell apart after Hartley went off it would have been very difficult anyway

Metal Tiger wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Exactly. I thought France were in more danger of winning to be honest.

You sir, are a sweaty plum muncher of epic proportions. Not satisfied with just enjoying your teams impressive display you are peddling your usual vile brand of mockery and derision. I despise you with every fibre of my being and the sooner you are banned... yet again... the better. And I dont particularly give a Poopie if this gets me in trouble with the mods.

Every other kiwi and to be fair the home nations fans have been gracious in their comments & observatiins regarding todays game. yet you demonstrate further what an utter scumbag you are.

God you p1ss me off.

Just an observation. France got closer. Their set piece didnt spectacularly fall apart with 29 minutes to go and they didn't rely on penalty kicks to score points.

Just saying.

Debating whether one team is better than another because team A beat team C by more than team B is a poorly concieved argument.

If you use this reasoning then England are in fact the second best team in the world as they came closest to New Zealand this year.

Biltong wrote:Debating whether one team is better than another because team A beat team C by more than team B is a poorly concieved argument.

If you use this reasoning then England are in fact the second best team in the world as they came closest to New Zealand this year.

Don't tell them that Bil or we will never hear the end of it you know that .

What pleased me with our performance today is that in the past we have 'raised' our game to compete for 60-65 minutes against the big boys of the SH then ran out ' plucky' losers but then not been able to beat so called weaker sides.

Today we out an albeit poor Argentina side to the sword and with a little bit more patience it could have been more but in the past we would have strugglede with that game. I hope even with wholesale changes that we can do the same to Tonga next weekend.

I have said all along that the benchmark for me will be the the Australia game, I always said the Boks would be to strong for us and I reckon we could get 3 from 4 this AI. Even though it was in the red of the Lions a lot of the lads likely to be playing know now they can beat them and even with injuries e are still likely to field 9 Lions against them so hopefully they can finally get the monkey off their back.

That said from what I saw yesterday Australia looked to be finding bit of form their self to - typical

bedfordwelsh.

I have just finished watching the Wales v Argentina game from yesterday. From my opinion Agentina looked completely unfiit compaired to the Welsh players, it was like men against boys. Still a good win for Wales, their first win in the Ais in 4 years.

Heaf wrote:
To be fair a 2 point lead with 20 minutes to go against the ABs is hardly a position to be thinking about closing out a game

Any lead against an opposition team that talented and you should be trying to close the game out...

maestegmafia

I would like you to tell me when was the last time "WALES" TOOK A 2 point lead against the All Blacks and managed to close the game out?...ermmmmm Never that's right isn't it? Never. 

Biltong wrote:Debating whether one team is better than another because team A beat team C by more than team B is a poorly concieved argument.

If you use this reasoning then England are in fact the second best team in the world as they came closest to New Zealand this year.

NZ are clear no1. South Africa is no2 but England is chomping at their heels very close in 3. That's what the results seem to be showing.

England looked poor in the backs but it looked more planned then anything else. South Africa played it wide in Jozi and got burned. They scored 4 but conceded 6. England's backs are not as good as the boks currently, both in attacking and being defensively astute.... If they spread it too often NZ would eventually pick them off and tear thm limb from limb. They had a game plan and until their first choice hooker went off injured they were leading up to 65mins.

South Africa are ahead of England as they've beaten England for the last 7 years.... But England did things to NZ that no one else has done recently.... They took them apart 12 months ago and this year they were again very close. They don't have the depth that the boks and NZ have.. If tuilagi is out they lose half their backline strength etc

Their pack though looks very good...for the second year in a row they have bested the kiwi backrow. Lawes looks like he has come of age.... But their bench looks weak. outside of their 20 odd first choice players they don't have the depth yet to compete when injuries occur... And they will occur constantly.

majesticimperialman wrote:bedfordwelsh.

I have just finished watching the Wales v Argentina game from yesterday. From my opinion Agentina looked completely unfiit compaired to the Welsh players, it was like men against boys. Still a good win for Wales, their first win in the Ais in 4 years.

Heaf wrote:
To be fair a 2 point lead with 20 minutes to go against the ABs is hardly a position to be thinking about closing out a game

Any lead against an opposition team that talented and you should be trying to close the game out...

maestegmafia

I would like you to tell me when was the last time "WALES" TOOK A 2 point lead against the All Blacks and managed to close the game out?...ermmmmm Never that's right isn't it? Never. 

majesticimperialman wrote:

''If Wales had not lost so many players last week, players in vital position, Adam Jones at prop for instance. Plus Jd 2 getting injured as well. I would have fancy them for a decent win.

But the way Argentina played last week in the second half. I just think they will be too much for Wales to handle.

Argentina 10+.''


Argentina, according to you, looked pretty fit the week before in the 2nd half against England. You don't lose fitness in a week. Poor comments by you, again.

majesticimperialman wrote:bedfordwelsh.

I have just finished watching the Wales v Argentina game from yesterday. From my opinion Agentina looked completely unfiit compaired to the Welsh players, it was like men against boys. Still a good win for Wales, their first win in the Ais in 4 years.

Heaf wrote:
To be fair a 2 point lead with 20 minutes to go against the ABs is hardly a position to be thinking about closing out a game

Any lead against an opposition team that talented and you should be trying to close the game out...

maestegmafia

I would like you to tell me when was the last time "WALES" TOOK A 2 point lead against the All Blacks and managed to close the game out?...ermmmmm Never that's right isn't it? Never. 

1905.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Exactly. I thought France were in more danger of winning to be honest.

You sir, are a sweaty plum muncher of epic proportions. Not satisfied with just enjoying your teams impressive display you are peddling your usual vile brand of mockery and derision. I despise you with every fibre of my being and the sooner you are banned... yet again... the better. And I dont particularly give a Poopie if this gets me in trouble with the mods.

Every other kiwi and to be fair the home nations fans have been gracious in their comments & observatiins regarding todays game. yet you demonstrate further what an utter scumbag you are.

God you p1ss me off.

Just an observation. France got closer. Their set piece didnt spectacularly fall apart with 29 minutes to go and they didn't rely on penalty kicks to score points.

Just saying.

How's about saying something different instead of regurgitating the same bilge over and over again. Metals right, and he was to kind tbh.. 

Biltong wrote:Debating whether one team is better than another because team A beat team C by more than team B is a poorly concieved argument.

If you use this reasoning then England are in fact the second best team in the world as they came closest to New Zealand this year.

Ummn, no, that would be France

England were never going to win that game, they had no attacking flair in the backs at all, the NH need to stop being happy with being plucky losers. I was absolutely gutted that we lost to SA last week, as I think we could have won. England fans should be gutted, NZ were rattled and they couldn't finish them off. I don't understand why the England fans are so happy, they thrashed NZ last year, surely they have gone backwards this year? Reading the papers this morning, you'd think they had won yesterday, this is a symptom of NH rugby atm, we are too happy to stay the brave loser!!!

[quote="majesticimperialman"]bedfordwelsh.

I have just finished watching the Wales v Argentina game from yesterday. From my opinion Agentina looked completely unfiit compaired to the Welsh players, it was like men against boys. Still a good win for Wales, their first win in the Ais in 4 years.

maj,

You're right our fitness and cohesiveness did come through in the end but as Griff pointed out you suggested we would lose by 10+. All that aside in the past we might have struggled and we have lost those games which is why I am glad we pressed on and took some (not all) of our chances.

Yes Bedford i did say that Wales would lose by 10+points. I was basing that with the loss of Adam Jones and Jd2. ..Instead of weakening the welsh team, it seems to have gave them more fight if you will.

Still like i said a good win for Wales.

The two players who came in did really well indeed especially Allen and given the fact that Jones has played most of the season in the Welsh Prem and seems down the pecking order with the Scarlets.

Pity now that Allen is injured and whilst we will see quite a lot of changes come the Tonga game I hope the momentum continues.

Would love to see Rhodri Jones come to the Dragons if he's unable to break into the Scarlets team more often. The Scarlets will want depth at TH, but if this lad is playing in the prem then he's being wasted a bit. It would help the Dragons out, give the player Pro rugby exposure and help develop another option for the Wales team.

Griff wrote:Would love to see Rhodri Jones come to the Dragons if he's unable to break into the Scarlets team more often. The Scarlets will want depth at TH, but if this lad is playing in the prem then he's being wasted a bit. It would help the Dragons out, give the player Pro rugby exposure and help develop another option for the Wales team.

Griff,

Too right and isn't this what the central contract issue might cover as well. The same happened to Mitchell, he couldn't break into the Os cos of Adam so went outside of Wales for regular game time.