Scottland / Springboks - after match discussion

First topic message reminder :

So.

Scotland well outplayed and well beaten - but did not drop their heads. SA might have relaxed just a fraction at 28 pts up but clearly keeping the tryline uncrossed was important to them.

Why we lost:
the lost lineouts handed territory and momentum to SA
Inablity to defend mauls
SA scrapped for the ball on the floor better and with better understanding of the ref. too many turnovers
Again we see Scotland make handling errors in an effort to chase the game.
Too many injured backs

Positives?
Pack scrumaged well. Denton, Barclay, Beattie, Seymour and Weir all had good games. Taylor did a bit with the ball he got.  Heads did not go down

Roll on cotter arriving and some guys back from injury.

Will Weir start next week?

They did, but the service from Laidlaw was also dreadful, and whilst the forward fronted up ok in general play, the lineout was a complete mess (largely, but not entirely, down to Ross Ford).

Interesting that Lamont gets a 7 in the ratings. Far too high in my opinion. Too slow and lacking in fundamental skills, like passing and kicking. I love his passion, and the fact that he can bully opposition backs in a one on one situation, but the cutting edge just isn't there. International wingers need to be fast, and be able to read the game. I'm not suggesting we drop him, we have no-one better, but if that was a 7/10 performance then I'm a Weegie.

Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer says flank Francois Louw’s injury is unlikely to be as serious as initially feared.

By Sport24

Louw was stretchered from the field in a neck brace four minutes before the end of South Africa’s 28-0 win over Scotland in Edinburgh on Sunday.

While it initially appeared to be a serious injury, the coach said he expected Louw to recover.

“I’ve spoken to the doctor and it was precautionary. He’s injured his neck but he should be fine. We’re still monitoring him,” Meyer told AFP.

Louw was also spotted giving a “thumbs-up” as he was being stretchered off the Murrayfield pitch.

Prop Frans Malherbe also left the field injured in the 33rd minute with the coach less optimistic about his chances of facing France in Paris this weekend.

“Frans has got a ripped cartilage,” Meyer said. “We’re not sure if he’s going to be fine. The doctor will make a decision tomorrow (Monday) but at this stage we’re not very hopeful that he will be able to continue.”

Biltong wrote:Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer says flank Francois Louw’s injury is unlikely to be as serious as initially feared.

By Sport24

Louw was stretchered from the field in a neck brace four minutes before the end of South Africa’s 28-0 win over Scotland in Edinburgh on Sunday.

While it initially appeared to be a serious injury, the coach said he expected Louw to recover.

“I’ve spoken to the doctor and it was precautionary. He’s injured his neck but he should be fine. We’re still monitoring him,” Meyer told AFP.

Louw was also spotted giving a “thumbs-up” as he was being stretchered off the Murrayfield pitch.

Prop Frans Malherbe also left the field injured in the 33rd minute with the coach less optimistic about his chances of facing France in Paris this weekend.

“Frans has got a ripped cartilage,” Meyer said. “We’re not sure if he’s going to be fine. The doctor will make a decision tomorrow (Monday) but at this stage we’re not very hopeful that he will be able to continue.”

Good news

Biltong wrote:Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer says flank Francois Louw’s injury is unlikely to be as serious as initially feared.

By Sport24

Louw was stretchered from the field in a neck brace four minutes before the end of South Africa’s 28-0 win over Scotland in Edinburgh on Sunday.

While it initially appeared to be a serious injury, the coach said he expected Louw to recover.

“I’ve spoken to the doctor and it was precautionary. He’s injured his neck but he should be fine. We’re still monitoring him,” Meyer told AFP.

Louw was also spotted giving a “thumbs-up” as he was being stretchered off the Murrayfield pitch.

Prop Frans Malherbe also left the field injured in the 33rd minute with the coach less optimistic about his chances of facing France in Paris this weekend.

“Frans has got a ripped cartilage,” Meyer said. “We’re not sure if he’s going to be fine. The doctor will make a decision tomorrow (Monday) but at this stage we’re not very hopeful that he will be able to continue.”

Speedy recovery to them both  

I'm really not happy about the performance yesterday, as I think most Scottish rugby fans are. As always I am trying to remain the optimistic about things but really struggling.

My biggest concern is not so much with any of the players but with the attitude that surrounds the game in Scotland. We lost the game in the first half as the players came on to the pitch and expected to compete with the springboks by virtue of turning up, I cannot imagine why this is. All of the starting XV are professionals and should have been under no illusions as to the size of the task that was infront of them, they should have been coming on to the pitch with purpose and the look of thunder in their eyes instead they shuffle on and sleepwalk through the first 10 minutes until they realised that they were up against it. Not good.

I think that the reason for many of the handling errors was down to urine poor communication throughout the game the team only seemed to talk to each other to berate their team mates when things went wrong. We had a five minute injury break and their was no one pulling the team together to try and find a way to restore some pride instead we were treated to players passing the ball around like a club side warming up for the last match of the season! The team should have been together, they should have been talking if they wanted to keep warm they should have been running........... together, as a unit, as fifteen players ready to put their bodies on the line for each other. Communication was so poor that it would not surprise me to find out there had been a dummy spitting episode similar to the one that preceded the game in Italy two years ago, bear in mind that this is pure speculation, but if that is the case the individual needs to be dropped as soon as possible and should probably have his pro contract cancelled. There are no superstars in the Scottish team

There were major problems in the pack, as has already been covered our props and locks coped well in the scrum against a very powerful unit and Ford negated this because he would not hook the ball on our scrum let alone compete against the head. I firmly believe that new engagement sequence hands an advantage to hookers who try to poach against the head - if the ref sees you competing he is then forced police the put in much more closely then it is all down to technique. Fair play it has been a long time since Ford had to hook the ball, but you know what; the same goes for all top flight hookers and the most effective way to improve is to practice against the best. The line-out malfunctions in the first quarter are I think a symptom of the lack of communication exhibited by the team as a whole and this is simply not good enough there is just about room in the backs for a small amount of individualism there is no place for it in the pack. Our flankers performed OK however Stroks' lack of pace was shown up from time to time. However my biggest criticism of the pack is reserved for Denton, I have seen people on here and in the press say that he had an a decent game: Bullpoopie! Here is a man who runs directly into contact, gets aggressively hugged and then falls over as he appears to be afraid to be turned over. Going into contact his body position is good; he takes it in low with a straight back but then stops when he should be either:

a. driving up and out of contact to break or half break the tackle and then offload
b. driving on with all of his might to make those extra couple of yards and make it more difficult for defenders to come in through the gate while giving his team mates time to arrive in numbers and recycle quickly

If he cannot do this then he needs to look at his playing style and run into space more often.

I would like to reserve judgement on the backs.

I am also slightly concerned about the management What worries me is that rather than coaching the team the way he sees fit Johnson is being forced use Cotter's strategies and the team is being managed ineffectively as a result.

We have to bounce back from this. We have the potential to do so, especially facing what will be a weakened Wallabies team. My picks for next week would be:

Dickenson
MacArthur
Low
Swinson
Gray Jnr
Brown (c) we need a leader in the pack based on the performance at the weekend.
Beattie
Barclay

Cuisiter
Weir - I'm tempted to give Jackson another go I think playing the Wallabies would suit his game more.

Lamont
Taylor
Bennett - He needs to be given the opportunity to show what he can do we need cutting edge in the 3/4
Seymour
Maitland

Grant
Lawson
Murray
Gray Snr
Cowan - Utility BR replacement highly thought of at London Irish time to see what he can do.
Laidlaw
Heathcote
Tonks

Good post solid. I would be happy to see that team run out on Saturday, I suspect we won't though

Watched the 1st try again and i must admit i was wrong, Alberts was indeed the ball carrier, well done SA, but that was naive defense from Scotlant.

Guys, I understand having not scored any points is not a good feeling, but would you rather have had Scotland kick a few penalties just to avoid the nil?

The fact is they knew they were too far behind to have penalties make up the difference, 21 points down before they got their first kickable penalty with virtually no time in the Bok 22 was not going to convince them they would have 7 kickable shots at goal.

So I think the attitude of saying we have to score tries to catch up should be seen in a positive light rather than staring at the nil.

I agree with this and was glad to see them kicking into the corner.

On weir - he needs to start the next game. I think he has had a really rough ride with injuries and duff selections for two years and it has badly hindered him. He needs a run as starter. I am confident he will reward this. he has a good head on him. great tactical kicking and a decent pass.

Against the Boks he like many of the others was simply trying too hard hence the near intercept. I think it is harsh to judge him on this performance. Give him a start against Aus then see what he can do. Remember this is the man who two years ago masterminded scotland A to smash the English Saxons.

He has never had a start for Scotland and too often has been brought on with only a few minutes when the game was lost. this time he at least got 1/2 and hour and did some good things as well as a couple of mistakes

Dentons analysis is spot on BTW.

Leadership - who was missing? Brown. I understand why he was rested but boy was he missed.

I'll take Solids team - and think it may be close to the team picked for Aus. I would definitely start Weir tho - We know who Jackson is. Weir needs a start to make him a part of the team and I would be tempted to give Wee Greig another start but happy to have Cus

I've thought of a positive to take from the game

I really liked the way the referee just awarded most of the tries without feeling the need to go to the TMO every time

Pat_Mustard wrote:I've thought of a positive to take from the game

I really liked the way the referee just awarded most of the tries without feeling the need to go to the TMO every time

......apart from our one and only chance right at the death...

No positives to take from the game, although from the day as a whole buying a 'hog roast roll' from the Mercat pre match was definetly one. Best lunch I've had in a while!

Surely Heathcote deserves at least a bench place for Saturday, doesn't play all that much for Bath but pretty reliable when he does. A move to Edinburgh asap must be on the cards for him. I'd also be tempted to play Cowan off the bench at some point this weekend, looks a very handy player for London Irish from what I've seen of him.
The injuries to Scott,Hogg and Visser has really shown up our lack of quality backs currently which makes recruitment of some more options an urgent priority for Lineen, be they from the Southern Hemisphere (eg Robbie Robinson) or from Rugby League (Russell)

No, Heathcote doesn't "deserve" a place on the bench, however SJ may consider him for that role purely to give him 20 minutes at the end of the game, and given that Jackson has had the opportunity to start two games with mixed results (we should not forget that he created several opportunities against South Africa and had a direct hand in three tries against Japan).

I would personally start Weir and have Jackson on the bench, sending Heathcote back to Bath to fight his way into the 23 (at present it seems Ford starts the big games with Henson on the bench). If he can't he should move to Edinburgh. He'll get regular rugby and the chance to play with Laidlaw and Scott week in week out.

The main positive is noone got hurt. Look at Wales. No JD2 or Adam Jones for quite some time.

I suppose that's right. Just a few bruised egos.....

funnyExiledScot wrote:No, Heathcote doesn't "deserve" a place on the bench, however SJ may consider him for that role purely to give him 20 minutes at the end of the game, and given that Jackson has had the opportunity to start two games with mixed results (we should not forget that he created several opportunities against South Africa and had a direct hand in three tries against Japan).

I would personally start Weir and have Jackson on the bench, sending Heathcote back to Bath to fight his way into the 23 (at present it seems Ford starts the big games with Henson on the bench). If he can't he should move to Edinburgh. He'll get regular rugby and the chance to play with Laidlaw and Scott week in week out.

No one deserves a place in an international rugby team, the place has to be earned. Heathcote is an option that we have; if he has been working hard in the training camps and impressing the coaches, something it is very hard for us armchair coaches to know, then he should get game-time.

Irrespective of whether or not the guy gets a game or a bench appearance at the weekend he needs to sit down with his management team and discuss his future at Barf, if they are preferring to play the orange tabloid magnet over him then he needs to move on and find a team who will give him game time. If this happens to be Edinburgh then fantastic.

Solid8 wrote:No one deserves a place in an international rugby team, the place has to be earned.  Heathcote is an option that we have; if he has been working hard in the training camps and impressing the coaches, something it is very hard for us armchair coaches to know, then he should get game-time.

Sorry but that doesn't make sense!