Read vs Halfpenny for World Player Of The Year

First topic message reminder :

Stuck on this one eh. Both have been in mesmeric form and have played huge hands in memorable wins for their teams. Happy with either.

Have read that Read benefits from the team around him this year which I don't believe. He's one of the standouts who would be missed more than the usual 7 and 10. Such a vital cog.

Halfpenny has been so assured all season and on form has probably been the best goalkicker in the game this year. Set up the try which broke the 3rd Lions test open.

No matter who wins, kudos to both for a brilliant year. (Half) Penny for your thoughts? See what I did there?

Answer the question Quins, how did you manage to change your mind from saying POTY should be disregard kicking then suggest Jonny's was justified because elf his kicking

It's a simple question so answer it...and cut the personal remarks? dense? Quite the keyboard general aren't you.

Like i said th either day, your posts are invariably predictable, contrary and barbed, you seem to take pleasure in locking horns and are incapable of comprehending a simple statistical probability

Every time a ball is kicked at the posts there are two possible outcomes.

The frequency that this event occurs does not change the two potential outcomes

Kick it once - 2 outcomes

kick it 1 billion times - 2 outcomes

If Dan Carter kicks once his chance of success is the same as if he has kicked it 1000 times hence his accuracy rate does not necessarily decrease with more attempts. If anything rehearsal should increase his chances of success.

Now, if you can't/won't accept that i suggest you go away and read some more wikipedia and then you can come back on here and throw a few stat words around whilst telling me you don't have to explain basic stats to me

Or, you could explain where my claim is wrong and cut the personal BS. Got it?

Bullsbok wrote:

Scratch wrote:ah quoins you are back…i wondered what the predicability is of you coming  back with a link to wikipedia, that fountain of reliable knowledge. I was 100% sure you would.  

Surprised you didn't enlighten us with your knowledge of probability distributions, not dependence, prior to feverishly searching for something on the net to back you up. Man you're good.

Also, you posted on this thread that kicking should have no bearing on the POTY yet you also suggested jonny's award was because of his kicking in an roc of both feet etc.

So which is it fella, can you explain - statistically- how you can change your mind quite so quickly

Yes attack the man when holes are found in  your flawed argument  

How exactly is that an attack on the man, please expand

Scratch wrote:Answer the question Quins, how did you manage to change your mind from saying POTY should be disregard kicking then suggest Jonny's was justified because elf his kicking

It's a simple question so answer it...and cut the personal remarks? dense? Quite the keyboard general aren't you.

Like i said th either day, your posts are invariably predictable, contrary and barbed, you seem to take pleasure in locking horns and are incapable of comprehending a simple statistical probability

Every time  a ball is kicked at the posts there are two possible outcomes.

The frequency that this event occurs does not change the two potential outcomes

Kick it once - 2 outcomes

kick it 1 billion times - 2 outcomes

If Dan Carter kicks once his chance of success is the same as if he has kicked it 1000 times hence his accuracy rate does not necessarily decrease with more attempts. If anything rehearsal should increase his chances of success.

Now, if you can't/won't accept that i suggest you go away and read some more wikipedia and then you can come back on here and throw a few stat words around whilst telling me you don't have to explain basic stats to me

Or, you could explain where my claim is wrong and cut the personal BS. Got it?

FORM!!! i'll leave it at that i;m bored of this and you're convinced 1/2p is robotic

No don't go Bull you might learn something

FORM does not effect the number of potential outcomes

He hits or misses.

It affects the likelihood of one result but not the number of potential results

he can only hit or miss

Therefore FORM is effectively a statistical non entity and rather a quantitative way of analyzing results

he hits 3/4 he is on form

he hits 1/4 h sis off form

that is all

I am off to bed

There is a 50% chance i will have a nightmare

Scratch wrote:
The frequency that this event occurs does not change the two potential outcomes

Kick it once - 2 outcomes

kick it 1 billion times - 2 outcomes

Assuming it takes 1 minute to take a kick at goal Halfpenny could potentially kick 525,600 goals in a calendar year.

Halfpenny would have to live to the age of 1902 if he starting kicking these goals from the first minute he was born.

Now if he were to manage a 90% rate for the billion kicks, then I'd say he nudges Read for player of the year...just. 

Bullsbok wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

MMaaxx wrote:I've said it on this thread already but it has got to be Read.

Has stood out this year more than anyone and performed at a ridiculous, unbelievable level while arguably playing against sterner opposition in tougher competitions. He is in such amazing form that he makes others seem average, really on a different level.

Halfpenny to me has been consistent without being amazing. I don't fear when he gets the ball as when Read does. Read has been a created and scorer of amazing tries all while getting through the dirty work an eight is expected to do.

Saying that Read performs in a team of world class players and thus at an advantage is convenient now. Over the last few years the amount of times here, Welsh press etc I've read that Wales have the best backrow, the best front row, the best back 3, the best scrum in the world blah blah blah, you'd think it was wales who were the real world class team.

Halfpenny has been as good as JDV, Etsebeth, Moore etc this year. 8 out of ten almost every game, really solid. But read has been at 9's and 10's. AMAZING!

Do you think Read is the best defensive 8 in the world, do you think he had a great defensive game against England last week?

He made 10 out of 10 tackles at 8, so actually he did have a pretty good defensive game at 8...

  

I was going to leave that one go on grounds of thinking maybe its getting to be a dog with a bone, but after you immature whistle, lets crank it up shall we?
* England's non try - out of position as a result was the only one of the ABs pack not to contribute to stopping the drive as he was off the ground on a tidal shove from the England pack
* England try - He came out of the retreating scrum too quickly leaving his pack rotating one way, ball came out the other side and under pressure he bundled the pick up... ahem I believe anyone else in rugby would have been crucified for that poor attempt
* Yellow card - Coming in clearly from the side - not only gave away 3 pts. unnecessary but also 10 mins in the bin.

Now I haven't looked at the other pens that came England's way so I am not going to say that's the only defensive blunders he made on the day but I will watch the entire match tomorrow

Jeez, all this talk of kicking statistics is really confusing...

Scratch wrote:No don't go Bull you might learn something

FORM does not effect the number of potential outcomes

He hits or misses.

It affects the likelihood of one result but not the number of potential results

he can only hit or miss

Therefore FORM is effectively a statistical non entity  and rather a quantitative way of analyzing results

he hits 3/4 he is on form

he hits 1/4 h sis off form

that is all

This is Love sacks. The small differences in your technique and mental state affect your kicking as they will affect any part of your game. If I fail to put 2 cannulae in properly in one day, I am more likely to fail with future cannulae that day for a variety of reasons, and the same applies to a kicker because the kick isn't a thing in itself. It's a function of Halfpenny and if halfpenny is less confident due to missing a kick, he's more likely to miss the next one due to over thinking it. If his technique is altered because his calf is a touch tight, or he's not quite reflexively doing things exactly the way he usually would, he's more likely to miss and that is likely to be the case for the whole game. If he's been missing kicks for several matches, a) he may well practice more with positive or negative effects and b) the pressure is likely to make him miss his first kick of the next game. His technique will change over periods of time and this doesn't just mean improve. You say there are only 2 outcomes and it's simple statistics but that ignores that the mechanical and mental process leading to the kick is in no way a constant. You are oversimplifying a complicated function and applying a logical rule where it is inappropriate

Flyhalf, Don't you think that's a bit of a pointless analysis. Parts of it are subjective. For it to be meaningful you'd have to the same to Halfpenny (or even better have a range on people not directly linked to either team make the assessment). It's a bit like the goal kicking argument.

quinsforever wrote:

Scratch wrote:ah quoins you are back…i wondered what the predicability is of you coming  back with a link to wikipedia, that fountain of reliable knowledge. I was 100% sure you would.  

Surprised you didn't enlighten us with your knowledge of probability distributions, not dependence, prior to feverishly searching for something on the net to back you up. Man you're good.

Also, you posted on this thread that kicking should have no bearing on the POTY yet you also suggested jonny's award was because of his kicking in an roc of both feet etc.

So which is it fella, can you explain - statistically- how you can change your mind quite so quickly

are you actually as dense as this makes me think or is it just a ploy?

place-kicking is not the same as scoring drop goals.  johnny did lots of stuff, the first i mentioned sealed a RWC victory, the second was instrumental in defeating NZ in NZ in 2003. and they were both IN OPEN PLAY.

there was no point me attempting to explain normal distributions and probabiity. your sad jibes make it all too clear how you would have responded. the reason what is on the net backs me up is because the point i was making is obvious.

with your arms though i'm sure you'll be able to figure it out

Bell end (curve) distribution

I'd personally vote for Read though Halfpenny is a magnificent player and kicker (though he won't finish his career with a 97% kicking record unless he does a Paterson) and deserves to be in the discussion. Most importantly, this International series is not over yet, so my view could have swung back again if Halfpenny has a great game vs Aus or Read is particularly poor against Ireland

In the end it's all subjective. The concept of a "best player" in a team sport with 15 very different positions is a tad ridiculous. Who was the better cricketer: Warne, Mcgrath, Gilchrist or Ponting? Their roles are different so making direct comparisons is doomed to fail due to pure subjectivity

blackcanelion wrote:Flyhalf, Don't you think that's a bit of a pointless analysis. Parts of it are subjective. For it to be meaningful you'd have to the same to Halfpenny (or even better have a range on people not directly linked to either team make the assessment). It's a bit like the goal kicking argument.

Not trying to be funny but I haven't got a clue what you are referring to?

ChequeredJersey wrote:I'd personally vote for Read though Halfpenny is a magnificent player and kicker (though he won't finish his career with a 97% kicking record unless he does a Paterson) and deserves to be in the discussion. Most importantly, this International series is not over yet, so my view could have swung back again if Halfpenny has a great game vs Aus or Read is particularly poor against Ireland

Which is more likely there?

Well both players are in my ESPN fantasy team, so I'm hoping for the first scenario

Taylorman wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I'd personally vote for Read though Halfpenny is a magnificent player and kicker (though he won't finish his career with a 97% kicking record unless he does a Paterson) and deserves to be in the discussion. Most importantly, this International series is not over yet, so my view could have swung back again if Halfpenny has a great game vs Aus or Read is particularly poor against Ireland

Which is more likely there?

If Halfpenny scores an individual try against Aus in addition to his usual kicks my view would swing a touch towards him . But given the form that Read is in , its more likely he's going to pick up a try or two and reinforce the belief he's indeed the most important All black now and the best player in the world

flyhalffactory wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

MMaaxx wrote:I've said it on this thread already but it has got to be Read.

Has stood out this year more than anyone and performed at a ridiculous, unbelievable level while arguably playing against sterner opposition in tougher competitions. He is in such amazing form that he makes others seem average, really on a different level.

Halfpenny to me has been consistent without being amazing. I don't fear when he gets the ball as when Read does. Read has been a created and scorer of amazing tries all while getting through the dirty work an eight is expected to do.

Saying that Read performs in a team of world class players and thus at an advantage is convenient now. Over the last few years the amount of times here, Welsh press etc I've read that Wales have the best backrow, the best front row, the best back 3, the best scrum in the world blah blah blah, you'd think it was wales who were the real world class team.

Halfpenny has been as good as JDV, Etsebeth, Moore etc this year. 8 out of ten almost every game, really solid. But read has been at 9's and 10's. AMAZING!

Do you think Read is the best defensive 8 in the world, do you think he had a great defensive game against England last week?

He made 10 out of 10 tackles at 8, so actually he did have a pretty good defensive game at 8...

  

I was going to leave that one go on grounds of thinking maybe its getting to be a dog with a bone, but after you immature whistle, lets crank it up shall we?
* England's non try - out of position as a result was the only one of the ABs pack not to contribute to stopping the drive as he was off the ground on a tidal shove from the England pack
* England try - He came out of the retreating scrum too quickly leaving his pack rotating one way, ball came out the other side and under pressure he bundled the pick up... ahem I believe anyone else in rugby would have been crucified for that poor attempt
* Yellow card - Coming in clearly from the side - not only gave away 3 pts. unnecessary but also 10 mins in the bin.

Now I haven't looked at the other pens that came England's way so I am not going to say that's the only defensive blunders he made on the day but I will watch the entire match tomorrow

Once again- yellow card shouldnt have been given- England infringed first by not releasing the ball to Messam.
try should not have been given- Robshaw was offside and impeded the defence of the try scorer- Mccaw was all over the back of Robshaw.

Reason Read dropped the ball is because he was in his mind already setting off for the tryline at the opposite end oif the field and rushed the pick up.

At least Read tries things, is ALWAYS involved in something, somehow.

Where Halfpenny for many matches sits at the back waiting for the whistle to blow before he can come forward. As good as he is, and for whatever reason, I just can't concede the award over someone who deliberately stays out of a primary part of the role he is selected for- not for just one, but for several matches.

You criticise the things Read does attempt and get wrong, but not the things Halfpenny doesnt attempt to have a chance of getting it right, or wrong. If he attcked a lot more then we would have something to jusdge him on- I mean- he may even get to knock the ball on like Read- but how will we ever know...?

Taylorman wrote:

Scratch wrote:
The frequency that this event occurs does not change the two potential outcomes

Kick it once - 2 outcomes

kick it 1 billion times - 2 outcomes

Assuming it takes 1 minute to take a kick at goal Halfpenny could potentially kick 525,600 goals in a calendar year.

Halfpenny would have to live to the age of 1902 if he starting kicking these goals from the first minute he was born.

Now if he were to manage a 90% rate for the billion kicks, then I'd say he nudges Read for player of the year...just. 

   

Hope read collects,  

assuming he doesn't have manflu on the day and can't make it.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Scratch wrote:No don't go Bull you might learn something

FORM does not effect the number of potential outcomes

He hits or misses.

It affects the likelihood of one result but not the number of potential results

he can only hit or miss

Therefore FORM is effectively a statistical non entity  and rather a quantitative way of analyzing results

he hits 3/4 he is on form

he hits 1/4 h sis off form

that is all

This is Love sacks. The small differences in your technique and mental state affect your kicking as they will affect any part of your game. If I fail to put 2 cannulae in properly in one day, I am more likely to fail with future cannulae that day for a variety of reasons, and the same applies to a kicker because the kick isn't a thing in itself. It's a function of Halfpenny and if halfpenny is less confident due to missing a kick, he's more likely to miss the next one due to over thinking it. If his technique is altered because his calf is a touch tight, or he's not quite reflexively doing things exactly the way he usually would, he's more likely to miss and that is likely to be the case for the whole game. If he's been missing kicks for several matches, a) he may well practice more with positive or negative effects and b) the pressure is likely to make him miss his first kick of the next game. His technique will change over periods of time and this doesn't just mean improve. You say there are only 2 outcomes and it's simple statistics but that ignores that the mechanical and mental  process leading to the kick is in no way a constant. You are oversimplifying a complicated function and applying a logical rule where it is inappropriate

Please answer this question

Does anything you have described increase or decrease the number of potential outcomes of a kick at goal

Yes or no

Taylorman wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

MMaaxx wrote:I've said it on this thread already but it has got to be Read.

Has stood out this year more than anyone and performed at a ridiculous, unbelievable level while arguably playing against sterner opposition in tougher competitions. He is in such amazing form that he makes others seem average, really on a different level.

Halfpenny to me has been consistent without being amazing. I don't fear when he gets the ball as when Read does. Read has been a created and scorer of amazing tries all while getting through the dirty work an eight is expected to do.

Saying that Read performs in a team of world class players and thus at an advantage is convenient now. Over the last few years the amount of times here, Welsh press etc I've read that Wales have the best backrow, the best front row, the best back 3, the best scrum in the world blah blah blah, you'd think it was wales who were the real world class team.

Halfpenny has been as good as JDV, Etsebeth, Moore etc this year. 8 out of ten almost every game, really solid. But read has been at 9's and 10's. AMAZING!

Do you think Read is the best defensive 8 in the world, do you think he had a great defensive game against England last week?

He made 10 out of 10 tackles at 8, so actually he did have a pretty good defensive game at 8...

  

I was going to leave that one go on grounds of thinking maybe its getting to be a dog with a bone, but after you immature whistle, lets crank it up shall we?
* England's non try - out of position as a result was the only one of the ABs pack not to contribute to stopping the drive as he was off the ground on a tidal shove from the England pack
* England try - He came out of the retreating scrum too quickly leaving his pack rotating one way, ball came out the other side and under pressure he bundled the pick up... ahem I believe anyone else in rugby would have been crucified for that poor attempt
* Yellow card - Coming in clearly from the side - not only gave away 3 pts. unnecessary but also 10 mins in the bin.

Now I haven't looked at the other pens that came England's way so I am not going to say that's the only defensive blunders he made on the day but I will watch the entire match tomorrow

Once again- yellow card shouldnt have been given- England infringed first by not releasing the ball to Messam.
try should not have been given- Robshaw was offside and impeded the defence of the try scorer- Mccaw was all over the back of Robshaw.

Reason Read dropped the ball is because he was in his mind already setting off for the tryline at the opposite end oif the field and rushed the pick up.

At least Read tries things, is ALWAYS involved in something, somehow.

Where Halfpenny for many matches sits at the back waiting for the whistle to blow before he can come forward. As good as he is, and for whatever reason, I just can't concede the award over someone who deliberately stays out of a primary part of the role he is selected for- not for just one, but for several matches.

You criticise the things Read does attempt and get wrong, but not the things Halfpenny doesnt attempt to have a chance of getting it right, or wrong. If he attcked a lot more then we would have something to jusdge him on- I mean- he may even get to knock the ball on like Read- but how will we ever know...?

Simple reply yet again
I am not criticising I am just replying to the "perfect 10" Read that some are suggesting, I think he had an awesome attacking game was involved in the three tries, great off each foot, perfect 10 tackles made, perfect 3 lineout won, was a menace every time he had the ball, led by example and was close to the ABs best player, but there was some things he was off the wall with.

So lets get back to the actual events not your view
Immaterial if there was an initial infringement, Read came in from the side and gave away the penalty when as an experienced player he didn't need to do that that cost a direct 3 pts and another 3pts when he was off, there was no TMO looking at it, ditto Robshaws infringement again no TMO.
As far as previous 1/2ps lack of attacking intent as I suggested his relative inexperience in the FB role has seen him concentrate on the basic functions of the position. Now he is making yardage..... even though Read made more breaks and yards than Halfpenny in many posters eyes he actually didn't in reality.


Passes
Read 7 Halfpenny 8

Runs made
Read 10 Halfpenny 10

Metres made
Read 51 Halfpenny 57

Read
Perfect tackle count
Perfect lineout count
1 try
1 assist
Yellow card
Pens given away = 1
Points given away direct = 3
Points given away indirect = 3

Halfpenny
20 points
8/9 kicks 89% accuracy
Pens given away direct = 0
pens given away indirect = 0

So pretty much even-stevens in my view

flyhalffactory wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

MMaaxx wrote:I've said it on this thread already but it has got to be Read.

Has stood out this year more than anyone and performed at a ridiculous, unbelievable level while arguably playing against sterner opposition in tougher competitions. He is in such amazing form that he makes others seem average, really on a different level.

Halfpenny to me has been consistent without being amazing. I don't fear when he gets the ball as when Read does. Read has been a created and scorer of amazing tries all while getting through the dirty work an eight is expected to do.

Saying that Read performs in a team of world class players and thus at an advantage is convenient now. Over the last few years the amount of times here, Welsh press etc I've read that Wales have the best backrow, the best front row, the best back 3, the best scrum in the world blah blah blah, you'd think it was wales who were the real world class team.

Halfpenny has been as good as JDV, Etsebeth, Moore etc this year. 8 out of ten almost every game, really solid. But read has been at 9's and 10's. AMAZING!

Do you think Read is the best defensive 8 in the world, do you think he had a great defensive game against England last week?

He made 10 out of 10 tackles at 8, so actually he did have a pretty good defensive game at 8...

  

I was going to leave that one go on grounds of thinking maybe its getting to be a dog with a bone, but after you immature whistle, lets crank it up shall we?
* England's non try - out of position as a result was the only one of the ABs pack not to contribute to stopping the drive as he was off the ground on a tidal shove from the England pack
* England try - He came out of the retreating scrum too quickly leaving his pack rotating one way, ball came out the other side and under pressure he bundled the pick up... ahem I believe anyone else in rugby would have been crucified for that poor attempt
* Yellow card - Coming in clearly from the side - not only gave away 3 pts. unnecessary but also 10 mins in the bin.

Now I haven't looked at the other pens that came England's way so I am not going to say that's the only defensive blunders he made on the day but I will watch the entire match tomorrow

Once again- yellow card shouldnt have been given- England infringed first by not releasing the ball to Messam.
try should not have been given- Robshaw was offside and impeded the defence of the try scorer- Mccaw was all over the back of Robshaw.

Reason Read dropped the ball is because he was in his mind already setting off for the tryline at the opposite end oif the field and rushed the pick up.

At least Read tries things, is ALWAYS involved in something, somehow.

Where Halfpenny for many matches sits at the back waiting for the whistle to blow before he can come forward. As good as he is, and for whatever reason, I just can't concede the award over someone who deliberately stays out of a primary part of the role he is selected for- not for just one, but for several matches.

You criticise the things Read does attempt and get wrong, but not the things Halfpenny doesnt attempt to have a chance of getting it right, or wrong. If he attcked a lot more then we would have something to jusdge him on- I mean- he may even get to knock the ball on like Read- but how will we ever know...?

Simple reply yet again
I am not criticising I am just replying to the "perfect 10" Read that some are suggesting, I think he had an awesome attacking game was involved in the three tries, great off each foot, perfect 10 tackles made, perfect 3 lineout won, was a menace every time he had the ball, led by example and was close to the ABs best player, but there was some things he was off the wall with.

So lets get back to the actual events not your view
Immaterial if there was an initial infringement, Read came in from the side and gave away the penalty when as an experienced player he didn't need to do that that cost a direct 3 pts and another 3pts when he was off, there was no TMO looking at it, ditto Robshaws infringement again no TMO.
As far as previous 1/2ps lack of attacking intent as I suggested his relative inexperience in the FB role has seen him concentrate on the basic functions of the position. Now he is making yardage..... even though  Read made more breaks and yards than Halfpenny in many posters eyes he actually didn't in reality.


Passes
Read 7    Halfpenny 8

Runs made
Read 10   Halfpenny 10

Metres made
Read 51   Halfpenny 57

Read
Perfect tackle count
Perfect lineout count
1 try
1 assist
Yellow card
Pens given away = 1
Points given away direct = 3
Points given away indirect = 3

Halfpenny
20 points
8/9 kicks 89% accuracy
Pens given away direct = 0
pens given away indirect = 0

So pretty much even-stevens in my view

So 1/2p a fullback's stats are directly comparable to an 8th mans ? Do you mind getting the same stats for Israel Dagg . Wouldnt mind seeing those , or give me the source of your data and i'll find stats for five fullbacks to have a lil comparison

Bullsbok wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

MMaaxx wrote:I've said it on this thread already but it has got to be Read.

Has stood out this year more than anyone and performed at a ridiculous, unbelievable level while arguably playing against sterner opposition in tougher competitions. He is in such amazing form that he makes others seem average, really on a different level.

Halfpenny to me has been consistent without being amazing. I don't fear when he gets the ball as when Read does. Read has been a created and scorer of amazing tries all while getting through the dirty work an eight is expected to do.

Saying that Read performs in a team of world class players and thus at an advantage is convenient now. Over the last few years the amount of times here, Welsh press etc I've read that Wales have the best backrow, the best front row, the best back 3, the best scrum in the world blah blah blah, you'd think it was wales who were the real world class team.

Halfpenny has been as good as JDV, Etsebeth, Moore etc this year. 8 out of ten almost every game, really solid. But read has been at 9's and 10's. AMAZING!

Do you think Read is the best defensive 8 in the world, do you think he had a great defensive game against England last week?

He made 10 out of 10 tackles at 8, so actually he did have a pretty good defensive game at 8...

  

I was going to leave that one go on grounds of thinking maybe its getting to be a dog with a bone, but after you immature whistle, lets crank it up shall we?
* England's non try - out of position as a result was the only one of the ABs pack not to contribute to stopping the drive as he was off the ground on a tidal shove from the England pack
* England try - He came out of the retreating scrum too quickly leaving his pack rotating one way, ball came out the other side and under pressure he bundled the pick up... ahem I believe anyone else in rugby would have been crucified for that poor attempt
* Yellow card - Coming in clearly from the side - not only gave away 3 pts. unnecessary but also 10 mins in the bin.

Now I haven't looked at the other pens that came England's way so I am not going to say that's the only defensive blunders he made on the day but I will watch the entire match tomorrow

Once again- yellow card shouldnt have been given- England infringed first by not releasing the ball to Messam.
try should not have been given- Robshaw was offside and impeded the defence of the try scorer- Mccaw was all over the back of Robshaw.

Reason Read dropped the ball is because he was in his mind already setting off for the tryline at the opposite end oif the field and rushed the pick up.

At least Read tries things, is ALWAYS involved in something, somehow.

Where Halfpenny for many matches sits at the back waiting for the whistle to blow before he can come forward. As good as he is, and for whatever reason, I just can't concede the award over someone who deliberately stays out of a primary part of the role he is selected for- not for just one, but for several matches.

You criticise the things Read does attempt and get wrong, but not the things Halfpenny doesnt attempt to have a chance of getting it right, or wrong. If he attcked a lot more then we would have something to jusdge him on- I mean- he may even get to knock the ball on like Read- but how will we ever know...?

Simple reply yet again
I am not criticising I am just replying to the "perfect 10" Read that some are suggesting, I think he had an awesome attacking game was involved in the three tries, great off each foot, perfect 10 tackles made, perfect 3 lineout won, was a menace every time he had the ball, led by example and was close to the ABs best player, but there was some things he was off the wall with.

So lets get back to the actual events not your view
Immaterial if there was an initial infringement, Read came in from the side and gave away the penalty when as an experienced player he didn't need to do that that cost a direct 3 pts and another 3pts when he was off, there was no TMO looking at it, ditto Robshaws infringement again no TMO.
As far as previous 1/2ps lack of attacking intent as I suggested his relative inexperience in the FB role has seen him concentrate on the basic functions of the position. Now he is making yardage..... even though  Read made more breaks and yards than Halfpenny in many posters eyes he actually didn't in reality.


Passes
Read 7    Halfpenny 8

Runs made
Read 10   Halfpenny 10

Metres made
Read 51   Halfpenny 57

Read
Perfect tackle count
Perfect lineout count
1 try
1 assist
Yellow card
Pens given away = 1
Points given away direct = 3
Points given away indirect = 3

Halfpenny
20 points
8/9 kicks 89% accuracy
Pens given away direct = 0
pens given away indirect = 0

So pretty much even-stevens in my view

So 1/2p a fullback's stats are directly comparable to an 8th mans ? Do you mind getting the same stats for Israel Dagg . Wouldnt mind seeing those , or give me the source of your data and i'll find stats for five fullbacks to have a lil comparison

Sigh you are a glutton for punishment
Dagg
kicks 6 / passes 12  / runs 9  / metres made 50 / defenders beaten 0  / offloads 1 / turnovers against 2..... POINTS 0
Halfpenny
kicks 8 / passes 10  / runs 10 / metres made 57 / defenders beaten 1 / offloads 1 / turnovers against 1..... POINTS 20

You can safely say that the dynamic offensive Dagg against the dull defensive Halfpenny is a bit of a fallacy


Do you want me to give you halfpennys stats for the Lions v Australia
and see if you can find a stat that Dagg has had anything against Oz that compares


Few things to note Argentina were poor and Wales missed about 15-20 points which was disappointing, England were a much better quality of opponent and yet Dagg almost had the same stats as Halfpenny.... SO STATS ARE A POOR INDICATOR TO AN EXTENT AND ARE DEEMED TO INACCURACIES...
But
I think you can safely say the rubbish that Halfpenny doesn't attack is beginning to be put to bed

Best full back in the world by miles, his year and deserving of the award, just like little Shane Williams was deserving of his No disrespect to Read.

He never attacks lol

so there are the attacks .... well there are plenty more mind:)

And after all this debate the winner is going to be selected by a group of individuals with as subjective and opinion as you lot.

Imagine how their debate must be going.

Biltong wrote:And after all this debate the winner is going to be selected by a group of individuals with as subjective and opinion as you lot.

Imagine how their debate must be going.

 

Biltong wrote:And after all this debate the winner is going to be selected by a group of individuals with as subjective and opinion as you lot.

Imagine how their debate must be going.

biltong, you do it  

I already said in the beginning of this thread Halfpenny will win it.

The Lions tour was the biggest event of the year and Halpenny will get it because of that.

If it was me, I would give it to Read.

Over and above the Lions tour, Halfpenny did enough for club and country and is already thought to be the best 15 in the world by those who matter.

rainbow-warrior wrote:Over and above the Lions tour, Halfpenny did enough for club and country and is already thought to be the best 15 in the world by those who matter.

Who are those that matter?

I for one don't think he is the best Fullback in the world.

I believe to classify anyone as the best they must have no equal.

Halfpenny is the best goalkicker on the planet at the moment without doubt.

Dagg and Willie le Rouz are better attackers than Halfpenny. Both of them are brilliant in creating space for their support runners and create more tries than they score.

Folau's aerial ability is the best in the world. Although he is a strong runner, he tends not to offload once he created space for his support.

Halfpenny impressed with his attacking play against OZ in the third test, but from what I have witnessed he doesn't do that enough.

But, defensively none of them stand out. I know you say Halfpenny missed only one tackle, but defense is not only about tackling.

Folau is lazy in defense, Willie le Roux had some weak games in defense, Dagg similarly is not good in defence.

Brown from England shows promise.

Currently for me there isn't one fullback that stands out above the others.

Bil,

Are there that many players who genuinely have to equal though? McCaw possibly though some would say a fully fit on fire Pocock will give him a run for his money.

Carter?
Read?

Obviously someone has only seen bits of 1/2 penny, it is a typical half hearted criticism from those who only see what they want. 1/2penny hgas demonstrated skills in every area of the FB role without fault for the vast majority. Me thinks this is now sh v NH and that all the best players MUST come from south of the equator....total bollox.

Rainbow, I have watched Halpenny in the six nations, saw him in the Lions Tour and this AI.

Why if I don't agree with you I show half hearted crtiticism?

Bedford, Dan Carter this year was not the Carter of old. In my view up to last year he had no equal, but there are a couple of reasons he is no longer in my view without peer.

New Zealand currently has a few fly halves who are catching up, I still rate Carter on reputation, but not on performance this year.

His injuries has a lot to do with it as well.

Read for me, yes, he stands out, his general play is unbelievable, his work rate in the tight, loose and these days out wide he is as dangerous as any back line player.

Pocock for me is one dimensional, he can rival McCaw at the breakdown, but his general play is very limited, he works for the Wallabies purely because without him they don't have enough staying power at the breakdown, he is their rock, but other than that, he doesn't do much.

there is definitely a halo effect with Read…..for me Parisse is the better player and if he played for NZ I think he would have been a legend of world rugby

half's contribution as a player is deflected by his supremacy as a 'kicker', he is so good people think he is in the team for his kicking whereas he is the first player on the team sheet for his guts, tackling, counterattacking, managing the high ball etc etc. Th kicking is invaluable of course but he'd play anyway.

With Read, because he plays for NZ he is regarded as a teflon shoo in for the 'best' player because he is the 'best' team.

At the end of the day we play games of rugby to win, and Halfpenny, by his own skill, be that kicking or whatever, is a proven incomparable match winner.

Best is a ridiculous test because w wall have our own subjective understanding of what that means.

I look at the core strengths of a player.

There are few allround players that you can say they do not only do their primary job the best, but they have other skills sets that make them more valuable.

Besides, getting named the Player of the year is not the same as being the best all round player, player of the year goes to the player who the panel judged had the most influence on the outcome of the year's fixtures, and as I said earlier, Halfpenny will get it due to his contribution to the series of the year, which was the Lions tour.

Scratch wrote:there is definitely a halo effect with Read…..for me Parisse is the better player and if he played for NZ I think he would have been a legend of world rugby

half's contribution as a player is deflected by his supremacy as a 'kicker', he is so good people think he is in the team for his kicking whereas he is the first player on the team sheet for his guts, tackling, counterattacking, managing the high ball etc etc. Th kicking is invaluable of course but he'd play anyway.

With Read, because he plays for NZ he is regarded as a teflon shoo in for the 'best' player because he is the 'best' team.

At the end of the day we play games of rugby to win, and Halfpenny, by his own skill, be that kicking or whatever, is a proven incomparable match winner.

Best is a ridiculous test because w wall have our own subjective understanding of what that means.

Yes, there are general perceptions about players, that is unfortunate, but then I was never much of a "follow the general perception" rugby supporter.

The problem I have with Parisse is the fact that being a stand out guy in his team, he doesn't seem to trust the rest of his players to do what he believes he can do. How often do you see him gaining front foot, but then he doesn't offload, it is no use to create space for support if you aren't going to get the ball to them.

The first thing I taught my son (he is a Prop), it isn't the number of yards you make, it is whether you ensure continuity of play. He does not have speed, but he has learnt that when he has the ball, his job is to gain front foot ball for his team, but if they don't get the ball back immediately, then front foot ball means nothing.

I agree with you calling someone the best is subjective, hence I am always very apprehensive to use the terminology.

However I think Read's rating is deserved.

Yes. For playing against a side that everyone who's anything beat.
Who would I rather have in the All Blacks of Read and Halfpenny?
Not worth the debate. Halfpenny would add nothing to this side. He would actually be a liability. We'd have to coach the non attacking thing out of him. Goalkicking would take a back seat.
In saying that both are fantastic players but we ain't seen halfpenny at his best.

In 2013 Read has captained his country to far more victories than Halfpenny has, as has JDV.

Looks like we were all way off the mark. List released a few minutes ago on the IRB website.

JOC and Mogg make the short list for their contributions to the Lions and Tom Taylor because Smith and Read canceled each other out. Taylor is now front runner with the bookies and GE will no doubt feel vindicated about his Tom Taylor is world class thread.

aucklandlaurie wrote:In 2013 Read has captained his country to far more victories than Halfpenny has, as has JDV.

Irrelevant auckland

This award is not a test of leadership, but who has been the best performer in international rugby

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Looks like we were all way off the mark. List released a few minutes ago on the IRB website.

JOC and Mogg make the short list for their contributions to the Lions and Tom Taylor because Smith and Read canceled each other out. Taylor is now front runner with the bookies and GE will no doubt feel vindicated about his Tom Taylor is world class thread.

do you hav a link kia?

Said several times smith and read would cancel each other out. System is flawed.

How do they cancel each other out?

If it works the way it used to let's say 9 greats watch every test and score 10 points 5 points and 2 points for the man of the match. Smith and read both star. The judges award 4 10s to read and 5 10s to smith. Likewise they award 5 points either way for second.
Halfpenny plays brilliantly and all 9 judges award 10 because no one else reaches his standard.
Read and smith cancel each other out.

Link: IRB tired of Halfpenny Read and kicking stats debate and snub both players out of spite.irb.com/playeroftheyearaward

Taylorman wrote:Yes. For playing against a side that everyone who's anything beat.
Who would I rather have in the All Blacks of Read and Halfpenny?
Not worth the debate. Halfpenny would add nothing to this side. He would actually be a liability. We'd have to coach the non attacking thing out of him. Goalkicking would take a back seat.
In saying that both are fantastic players but we ain't seen halfpenny at his best.

Reads like a crock of shiate to me, but still 1/2 Penny best 15 in the world FACT

Reads not that bad rainbow.