Bruno's wasted talent...could he have been a modern great??

1. Nobody ever outboxed Frank Bruno.
2. He had one of the best jabs in modern heavy history.
3. He outboxed quality like Lewis, MCcall, Witherspoon and shut out Smith for most of their fights before tiring.
4. Had alot of power....
5. Could take a good shot..
6. Had great physical attributes..
7. Was a focused trainer and a true professional

1. His stamina was poor...partly through being musclebound and overtrained.
2. Like number 1 didn't know how to reserve strength by switching off and catching a breather.
3. Not as mentally solid as he could have been.
4. Could take a shot but had no survival instinct when hurt..

Looking at the pros to the cons....Makes you think had a Steward, Futch or Dundee got hold of him at an early age maybe Bruno could have been something special.....

Maybe Tyson was a bridge too far style wise but he had potential....

Bruno was too robotic. Lawless sent him to dance classes to learn tap in order to improve his footwork. I mean come on; a black man who cant dance!!!!!!

I'm talking at an earlier age...some might say Jeffries, Vitali and Vlad are robotic....

Great trainers could have given him a survival instinct and made him take breathers in fights..

Outboxed Lewis, Witherspoon and Smith which is no mean feat.

Nobody outboxed Frank.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'm talking at an earlier age...some might say Jeffries, Vitali and Vlad are robotic....

Great trainers could have given him a survival instinct and made him take breathers in fights..

Outboxed Lewis, Witherspoon and Smith which is no mean feat.

Nobody outboxed Frank.

I dont think you can train instinct into someone. You either have it or dont.

Withsespoon was ahead on points when it was stopped. I also think they took him lightly.

So he was a focused trainer yet he over trained...his handlers can't have been that smart if they didn't realise that.

Frank couldn't take a good shot. Throughout his career, as soon as he was tagged he was puppet with it's strings cut. It was shown as early on as the fight with Jumbo Cummings. Had Cummings tagged him even ten seconds earlier, Frank wouldn't even be a footnote in British boxing. Dodged a bullet that night and was an accident waiting to happen as the Smith fight proved.

Frank was far too robotic and didn't have a fighter's instinct for the finish. Look at his fight with Tyson. Catches Mike flush, has Mike on wobbly legs but his brain doesn't work quick enough to realise he needs to throw another shot.

Frank was even more of a manufactured fighter than Wlad. He had no natural flair for the game and couldn't adapt mid fight. After losing to Smith he was criticised for not holding or taking a knee. After that, he held excessively and clubbed the back of his opponent's head to the point where it became as much a part of his arsenal as that right hand of his.

When Lewis finally woke up, he beat Frank handily, as for this myth about outjabbing him, the fight I watched shows a lot of those jabs being caught on Lewis's gloves. Mc Call fought in a daze for ten rounds, hand Frank hanging on for dear life in the twelfth in a fight he was supposed to have controlled with ease for the previous 30 minutes.

Nice bloke, although rumours abound he wasn't the Prince the media often made him out to be..I also believe that, had he fought Gary Mason, Gary would have beaten him.

Modern great...nope! Chin would ALWAYS let him down

Witherspoon came on as the fight went on....as did Lewis.

I see your point he'd never have had the Holmes/Ali instinct but he might have learnt some savvy..when hurt...

Steward's Lewis was a big improvement on Correa's...

Olajide was another notable over trainer.......

Lawless wasn't a very good trainer.....

Thin line with leaving your best in training and being spent for the fight..

Bruno was too enthusiastic and he needed tough love to say enough!!

Oh when Lewis finally woke up....just as Mccall finally woke up and Witherspoon, truth Williams, Coetzee etc....


They all struggled with the jab..
Bruno should have starred in the night of the living dead...

Lawless was his manager, George Francis was his trainer

Lawless was involved in all of Bruno's activities....Nothing Francis did was without Lawless approval....

Don't be pedantic.

I thought Lawless was also his trainer. He was his chief second. In fact he was a typical Lawless fighter. Left jab, left jab, straight right....repeat ad infinitum until you get KO'd.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Lawless was involved in all of Bruno's activities....Nothing Francis did was without Lawless approval....

Don't be pedantic.

Frank Maloney is in the corner for a lot of his fighters but he ain't their trainer either. Behave yourselves!

He was Lawless fighter...Francis was a hired hand...

Just checked on wiki. He was their trainer and manager.

I could go on Wiki and put that he was Frank's ballet coach...doesn't make it so though does it?

WIKI

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He was Lawless fighter...Francis was a hired hand...

Bloody Hell.

We've got a Biblical epic in ' Judah dismisses Khan ' and now we've got ' High Noon ' with a lawless fighter and a hired hand.

Cue Gary Cooper.........

So he was his trainer on paper... doesn't mean someone wasn't pulling his strings..

Lawless was very hands on..

Don't be so defensive.

Hope when the day comes that I'm owned like DAVE I take it with better grace!

George Francis a hired hand indeed! The man who trained Conteh and Boza Edwards among others (Mugabi too, for that matter) needed no lessons from the likes of Lawless about how to prepare a boxer for a big fight. Absolutely top trainer, he was, who took complete control of Bruno's fight preparations, whatever machinations Lawless was contriving in his managerial role.

Essentially, Francis was called in because Lawless's abilities went only so far, and to give him some sort of credit, Lawless knew it. As azania suggests elsewhere, Lawless turned out well-schooled, one-dimensional and utterly predictable fighters (with the sole exception of Charlie Magri, who was basically allowed to go hell for leather from the first bell, since his stamina gave out after about eight and his chin went whenever he was cleanly tagged). Bruno was the prime example of this, and his boxing schooling was a good reason why he would never have been any sort of modern great.

If only Francis had got hold of him straight out of the amateurs. I doubt that Bruno would have been allowed to develop a physique better suited to body-building, and he'd have been taught what to do when he got tagged, as well. If Bruno had the potential to be a modern great, so, in trumps, did Ernie Terrell, Jimmy Ellis, Mike Weaver, tubbs, Thomas etc etc etc. Too much of a stretch to make it a serious proposition, far as I see it.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Hope when the day comes that I'm owned like DAVE I take it with better grace!

Well, given the Captain has just so eloquently proven that Francis was Bruno's trainer, maybe you could give it a whirl!

As much as I love Bruno (he was my first boxing hero as a six or seven year old lad), I can't buy in to the thought of him potentially being a modern great, regardless of who handled him or what training he undertook. A fighter's instinct is called that for a reason; it can't be taught or trained, and when it came to crunch situations, Bruno simply didn't have it.

At best, I can buy that he'd have perhaps picked up his strap a little earlier than he eventually did had he been under the guidance of Francis sooner, as well as perhaps switching alliance from Lawless to Warren a little earlier on, too (Lawless had fallen way out of favour from the first Tyson fight onwards). People regularly point to Bruno's physique and the stamina issues it possibly resulted in, but for me stamina was never THE primary problem; Bruno was simply too limited. Your stamina can be tip top, but that coupled with a strong jab and little else isn't going to translate in to greatness in any form.

It is interesting, though, that early on in his career (late 1983 to early 1984, if my memory serves me) Floyd Patterson came in to Bruno's camp for an extended period working loosely as consultant of sorts, and he described Bruno as the best Heavyweight prospect he'd ever seen up until that point. High praise indeed.

DAVE667 wrote:I could go on Wiki and put that he was Frank's ballet coach...doesn't make it so though does it?

WIKI

http://www.johnbarber.com/sport/boxing2.html

Read the first line.

George Francis guided him to the world title. His first trainer was Lawless.

azania wrote:George Francis guided him to the world title. His first trainer was Lawless.

SO using that rationale, Freddie Roach isn't Manny trainer either

DAVE667 wrote:

azania wrote:George Francis guided him to the world title. His first trainer was Lawless.

SO using that rationale, Freddie Roach isn't Manny trainer either

Lawless was ditched after the first tyson fight. Lawless trained him. Francis was part of the team. Splitting hairs but there you go.

I ditched my ex and then I got married a few years later...does this mean my ex is still my girlfriend?

DAVE667 wrote:I ditched my ex and then I got married a few years later...does this mean my ex is still my girlfriend?

Well seeing as Lawless is dead he cant be anyone's trainer, so using your example, he never trained anyone. Also Bruno retired so he has no trainer.

But seriously are you suggesting Lawless was never his trainer?

I never said Lawless wasn't his trainer, I'm saying his real trainer was George Francis

DAVE667 wrote:I never said Lawless wasn't his trainer, I'm saying his real trainer was George Francis

Well Lawless was always introduced as his trainer.

DAVE667 wrote:So he was a focused trainer yet he over trained...his handlers can't have been that smart if they didn't realise that.

Frank couldn't take a good shot. Throughout his career, as soon as he was tagged he was puppet with it's strings cut. It was shown as early on as the fight with Jumbo Cummings. Had Cummings tagged him even ten seconds earlier, Frank wouldn't even be a footnote in British boxing. Dodged a bullet that night and was an accident waiting to happen as the Smith fight proved.

Frank was far too robotic and didn't have a fighter's instinct for the finish. Look at his fight with Tyson. Catches Mike flush, has Mike on wobbly legs but his brain doesn't work quick enough to realise he needs to throw another shot.

Frank was even more of a manufactured fighter than Wlad. He had no natural flair for the game and couldn't adapt mid fight. After losing to Smith he was criticised for not holding or taking a knee. After that, he held excessively and clubbed the back of his opponent's head to the point where it became as much a part of his arsenal as that right hand of his.

When Lewis finally woke up, he beat Frank handily, as for this myth about outjabbing him, the fight I watched shows a lot of those jabs being caught on Lewis's gloves. Mc Call fought in a daze for ten rounds, hand Frank hanging on for dear life in the twelfth in a fight he was supposed to have controlled with ease for the previous 30 minutes.

Nice bloke, although rumours abound he wasn't the Prince the media often made him out to be..I also believe that, had he fought Gary Mason, Gary would have beaten him.

Modern great...nope! Chin would ALWAYS let him down

Dave, Bruno's chin has always puzzled me to be honest. In a fashion you could say it was appalling as everytime he got tagged his brain was scrambled and he was in trouble straight away, but he didn't actually instantaneously hit the deck. If you think about the left hook that Lewis nailed him with in the seventh round, it was such a flush shot that normally you would expect the oppo to hit the canvas or at least do a funny dance, but Bruno stayed on his feet and just had a strange, wide eyed stare that told the world he was in trouble. It was almost as if his chin could take the impact but his survival instincts were hopeless once his brain registered he was in trouble.

Almost has puzzling as the myth that Lennox Lewis had a dodgy chin.

Getting back to the original question, Bruno really went as far as he could go. I dispute that he could take a punch and mentally wasn't as strong as other fighters. He was, however, brilliant for the British Heavy Weight scene. He fought some of the best and entertained inside and outside of the ring. I have excellent memories of him (and Gary Mason come to that, may he rest in peace). He is a man whose hand I would like to shake as someone who always gave his best. Tony Sibson is another, but that's another thread.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:Almost has puzzling as the myth that Lennox Lewis had a dodgy chin.

Hmm:

Lewis KOby2 McCall (single shot)
Lewis KOby5 Rahman (single shot)

Are you a flat earther perchance ?

As you say, bhb, it's another thread, but I'm glad to see I'm not the only one with a soft spot for Tony Sibson.

Lewis was just toying with Bruno.

fearlessBamber wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:Almost has puzzling as the myth that Lennox Lewis had a dodgy chin.

Hmm:

Lewis KOby2 McCall (single shot)
Lewis KOby5 Rahman (single shot)

Are you a flat earther perchance ?

Is it not then?

Your quite right fearlessBamber, they are not great adverts for taking a shot when viewed on their own, but there are other numerous examples of Lewis taking flush, well delivered shots, from huge guys that he showed little reaction to. They were exceptionally good, well timed and hard punches which would have put down most heavyweights in my opinion. That doesn't automatically mean he couldn't take a shot. He wouldn't have had such a long and sucessfull career if he was "chinny", not in the heavyweight division anyway. I maintain that the left hook that Holyfield caught him with in the 7th round of their second fight would have taken many heavyweights out of there in an instance. Lewis took it and carried on. I am not saying he was Oliver McCall, but neither was he "chinny".

[ He wouldn't have had such a long and sucessfull career if he was "chinny", not in the heavyweight division anyway.

And Wlad is world champion because ...?

bhb001 wrote:[ He wouldn't have had such a long and sucessfull career if he was "chinny", not in the heavyweight division anyway.

And Wlad is world champion because ...?

I take your point bhb and it a good one, but Wlad has not faced the same level of oppo as Lewis did and has completely adapted his style to compensate for his chin. That is something I personally don't believe can be levelled at Lewis.

I dont believe that Bruno ever had the making of any kind of great. He simply didnt have the talent.

He was slow, ponderous, lacking in footwork, movement and agility. Tactically he wasnt particularly aware, stylewise quite one dimensional, suspect instincts in the ring.

Far too many limitations for even the finest of trainers to ammend.

Certainly outboxed alot of good heavyweights for a guy who was slow and ponderous..

Could say the same about Jeffries.

i have a huge appreciation of bruno, most of the original critisims are bang on, his uber big frame always baffled me as even at that young age i knew that a frame that big would tire very easily (obviously frank didn't watch world strongest man like i did). maybe a better training team would have changed this, but who knows. his "mental weakness" when hurt can't really be argued either, but he has been diagnosed with bipolar so maybe this effected him then as well, which if so he couldn't really help. think frank would have needed more than just a better trainer. he needed that dig in attitude that can't really be taught.

think he showed a good heart against mccall in there last 2 rounds, but on the other hand why put himself in that position again? was over then moon when he finally bagged the WBC belt, and i think most of the planet was wishing him on then as well.

This is a difficult one, Bruno would be there or there abouts now. I think he'd have a good should against Wlad and could have been a champion for longer in a different era.

As mentioned above though, his weaknesses would have still been there as most were regardnig his 'instinct' rather than his training.

In his credit though I don't think many fighters would have been a better genie.

Frank Bruno had well documented limitations but he wasn't a pushover for anyone at his best. He had the well documented power to trouble anyone and the ramrod left jab is one of the best I've seen - a true weapon in its own right. He put up good challenges against quality Heavyweights like Witherspoon, Lewis and Tyson (1st fight). His competition interms of quality wins isn't great but he was a World class operator for many years.

He was European Champion though its a shame he never contested the British belt. He achieved his ultimate goal of becoming a World Champion.

Always enjoyed watching him fight and his right hand put many Heavyweights to sleep.