What does Groves have to do...

..to emerge with any credit on Saturday?

What kind of performance do people think Groves has to put in for people to consider he may have been worthy of his shot. Clearly we can't do anything about his record up to this point but whilst it's likely Froch will win, I'm rooting for George and certainly believe he'll give a good account of himself. However, what does he have to do to elevate himself in the eyes of the naysayers?

Does it have to be nothing short of victory, a losing split decision, close but losing unanimous decision, winning handily on the cards only to be stopped late, running Froch close but getting stopped late or something else? I'm hoping not, but maybe Groves will indeed fold early and feed the argument that he wasn't fit to share the same space with everyone's favourite trench dweller.

However, assuming there isn't an early blowout, what will convince you that Groves deserved his shot?

I believe he deserves his crack and full credit for Froch for taking the fight (Although I doubt he would have took it had it not been on PPV).

Am putting down £10 on Groves rounds 1-4 and 9-12. Just got a feeling that hes going to stop him for some reason.

well brush his te....

On a serious note, i think that as long as he does not get blasted away, or conversely, gets on his heels and runs for the fight, he is coming away with some credit.

Also a spot of humility if he gets beat would not go amiss!!

However I do not think that it is as cut and dry as some would have you believe and can see a (potential) points victory for Groves

Though i agree that the K.O win for Froch is where the smart money is at

To come out credible, he needs to outbox froch easily, fight well on the inside, be able to take a shot or 50 of them, hold his stamina, pump the jab very hard and try and counter.

This is the only way to conquer froch. Look at Ward.

Kessler touched it out first fight, but he has a chin and also has top top experience at world level.

Groves has neither

Froch is going to crush him big time and i hope its a relentless beating in this quiet kid come complete Tinkywinky face.

He could do the post fight interview over and over again.

A bit like multiple pre fight threads.

Avoid getting stopped and, if possible, only lose an SD.

Will get plenty of respect if he pulls that off.

If he does that Toppy (avoids getting stopped and loses an SD) ill vacate these sites for 6 months.

mobilemaster8 wrote:If he does that Toppy (avoids getting stopped and loses an SD) ill vacate these sites for 6 months.

 
COME ON, GROVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hahahaha was waiting for that Dave...

Thought I'd better add a comma as TRUSS may take it as an instruction

Groves it has to be remembered isn't fighting the best guy in the division......He's also fighting a guy who is in his mid thirties and who has lost to Kessler and Ward........

Not the same as a farr going the distance with Joe or Mugabi giving undisputed p4p no 1 Marvin hell.......

I suppose a close decision won't put his career back much.........

But when you think a brave display against then-divisional number 1 Martinez by Barker didn't exactly enhance him then we are looking at close decision territory..

Have to remember Degale is waiting and can easily push in front of Groves in the up and coming stakes should Groves lose.........

Close decision or the drawing board.

I think Groves can give Froch trouble but he gets hit a little too easily and Froch can bang.........

Same as Bellew-Stevo

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Groves it has to be remembered isn't fighting the best guy in the division......He's fighting a guy who is in his mid thirties and who has lost to Kessler and Ward........

Not the same as a farr going the distance with Joe or Mugabi giving undisputed p4p no 1 Marvin hell.......

I suppose a close decision won't put his career back much.........

But when you think a brave display against then-divisional number 1 Martinez by Barker didn't exactly enhance him then we are looking at closed ecision territory..

Have to remember Degale is waiting and can easily push in front of Groves in the up and coming stakes should Groves lose.........

Close decision or the drawing board.

I think Groves can give Froch trouble but he gets hit a little too easily and Froch can bang.........

Same as Bellew-Stevo

Hope no-one's told Froch this. He was offering every man and his dog outside the other day including Andre Ward. Froch, it seems, has tired of going into the trenches and is now taking it to the streets.

DAVE667 wrote:Hope no-one's told Froch this. He was offering every man and his dog outside the other day including Andre Ward. Froch, it seems, has tired of going into the trenches and is now taking it to the streets.

He needs to fight them on the beaches first if convention is anything to go by...

if he is competitive and goes 12 - losing by 3/4 rounds, then he deserves credit. If he is leading before getting stopped late, the same. If he knocks Froch down or has him in serious trouble before being beaten, he is credit worthy.

I will give Groves credit, so long as he comes to win and isn't completely outclassed. Worthy challenge IMO. 19-0, good power, speed and reflexes. So long as he doesn't go all Audley on us.

Why does he deserve credit for losing???

He's coming up to 26.......

he's beaten contenders Degale, British champion Smith and Glen Johnson so he isn't some baby stepping in with a beast.....

Froch has lost to Kessler and Ward..........

Froch is in his mid thirties......and isn't divisional nimber 1.......

Credit Groves for taking the shot it shows rocks........But he's really just another contender looking to defeat an alphabet champion........

If he loses where does he go?? .......Ward?????

Come on.........A loss will show he's not good enough to beat the 2nd best 168 er in the World.......

So I take it TRUSS that, in your eyes, nothing short of a win will be good enough? Would it bother you, the manner of the victory or does it have to be clear cut and decisive?

Groves can win this fight. He needs to box, use the outer ring and ping Froch with hard shots when Carl closes him down. He couldn't do a lot with Dirrell, other than bully him in the clinches and force the issue from bell to bell.

Groves is quicker, younger and possibly hits harder with a single punch.

His problem is his chin. Kenny Anderson had him on the brink and Paul Smith appeared to buzz him at the end of the first round of their opener.

Sooner or later, you'd expect Froch to nail him, though.

Take it you haven't read the article then Haz? (not blaming you, my name's on it)

DAVE667 wrote:So I take it TRUSS that, in your eyes, nothing short of a win will be good enough? Would it bother you, the manner of the victory or does it have to be clear cut and decisive?

I think a defeat limits the kid's options and puts him behing Degale........Where does he go after Froch ???.........

If he was 21 and a bit of a novice maybe I'd think differently but he's done probably more than most contenders to get a shot..(fairplay).....Which means he's probably as good as he'll ever be.......

Degale is a very good win, Johnson was respected and the Smith win looks better...........

If it was Ward he extended than I may feel different also..........But he's up against a guy in the Autumn/winter of his career..........A guy outclassed at the weight by Ward who has also lost to Kessler.......

Like I said it isn't Hagler-Mugabi or Sanchez-Nelson...........Groves is a bonafide contender not a novice........He sinks or swims..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:So I take it TRUSS that, in your eyes, nothing short of a win will be good enough? Would it bother you, the manner of the victory or does it have to be clear cut and decisive?

I think a defeat limits the kid's options and puts him behing Degale........Where does he go after Froch ???.........

If he was 21 and a bit of a novice maybe I'd think differently but he's done probably more than most contenders to get a shot..(fairplay).....Which means he's probably as good as he'll ever be.......

Degale is a very good win, Johnson was respected and the Smith win looks better...........

If it was Ward he extended than I may feel different also..........But he's up against a guy in the Autumn/winter of his career..........A guy outclassed at the weight by Ward who has also lost to Kessler.......

Like I said it isn't Hagler-Mugabi or Sanchez-Nelson...........Groves is a bonafide contender not a novice........He sinks or swims..

I think the manner of defeat limits his options. Look at the likes of Macklin, Barker and Murray who've all put up decent efforts against Champions and still gone on to bigger fights. Ward is definitely the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow but, depending on the quality of opposition, we may just see Ward having to move up to LH to get anything approaching a decent test. Leaves the SM division wide open and, if Groves has aquitted himself well, he may still be in the mix.

DAVE667 wrote:Take it you haven't read the article then Haz? (not blaming you, my name's on it)

Sorry mate -- Groves deserves a big fight against another top ten contender (I'm not down with this alphabet belt thing -- Ward's the champ). It's a big fight, good earner for both and Groves is a good fighter.

I expect him to give a good account of himself.

Not sure Macklin-GGG was bigger than Martinez-Macklin..........Or that Macklin sold any of those two fights anyway..........

It will have to be the Darren Barker route for Groves should he lose..........Ward won't be interested in sloppy seconds and If he does a Barker and beats the in this case weakest WBO champion.......

Like Barker would anybody believe or care he is a WORLD champion......

I like Barker.......He is a decent chap and has class.......But with Marto and GGG at the same weight it's hard to take him seriously...

But I see where you are coming from......

I was referring in particular to Macklin's losing tilt at Strum and getting a fight with Martinez on the back of it...same as Murray.

You say Ward won't be interested in sloppy seconds but there was an interesting article about a potential fight with him and Chavez Jr and the possibility that whilst Ward was clearly the 2nd best fighter on the planet, he might have to seriously consider taking a smaller purse against someone like Chavez in order to try and boost his profile.

Ward's ability means he's going to struggle to find worthwhle competition but the alternative is to face no-one and possibly stagnate (there's plenty of fights out there for Ward but he presents perhaps THE biggest high risk/low reward for fighters these days). He may consider a fight with Groves as it's also extremely likely Groves isn't going to a be as big a Mr Winklechops as Froch about who calls the shots.

Yep, according to Truss, only the victor deserves any credit in a fight.

Consensus was Macklin was unlucky against Sturm........A little bit different.

Have to remember Chavez jr like his dad has a big following.......and means plenty of bucks something Ward has struggled to attain...

I like Groves but charisma and a big support are things he lacks.......

Unfortunately guys like Chavez can get title shots off their Daddy's name and limited success.......Would have been the same for camacho jr If he'd have been Mexican and not Puerto Rican.........

Mexican fans are the greatest fans in the World.......

Sean I never said that....(Hagler-Mugabi...Sancjez-Nelson).......If It's a close barnstormer then everyone wins...........But let's face it.....It won't be.....and even after a barnstormer where does Groves go ??

I watched the Sturm/Macklin fight and, had he been able to maintain his approach in the final few rounds I'd have given it to him. As it was, he allowed Strum room to work and Sturm punished him with some hurtful shots. Think some people forget that Macklin was almost out on his feet in the final round. It was close but no robbery and Macklin's conditioning/blistering early pace did for him in the end.

I agree..........No robbery..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Consensus was Macklin was unlucky against Sturm........A little bit different.

Have to remember Chavez jr like his dad has a big following.......and means plenty of bucks something Ward has struggled to attain...

I like Groves but charisma and a big support are things he lacks.......

Unfortunately guys like Chavez can get title shots off their Daddy's name and limited success.......Would have been the same for camacho jr If he'd have been Mexican and not Puerto Rican.........

Mexican fans are the greatest fans in the World.......

Sean I never said that....(Hagler-Mugabi...Sancjez-Nelson).......If It's a close barnstormer then everyone wins...........But let's face it.....It won't be.....and even after a barnstormer where does Groves go ??

I think if it is a barnstormer and Groves loses, he deserves credit. That's all. I agree, if he is dusted with ease he is going back down a level (probably to a rematch with Degale), but I do think there are circs in which he can lose and get some credit for his performance.

DAVE667 wrote:I watched the Sturm/Macklin fight and, had he been able to maintain his approach in the final few rounds I'd have given it to him. As it was, he allowed Strum room to work and Sturm punished him with some hurtful shots. Think some people forget that Macklin was almost out on his feet in the final round. It was close but no robbery and Macklin's conditioning/blistering early pace did for him in the end.

Kind of agree. Macklin won his rounds far more convincingly, but they were still only 10-9 rounds. He faded down the stretch.

Seanusarrilius wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Consensus was Macklin was unlucky against Sturm........A little bit different.

Have to remember Chavez jr like his dad has a big following.......and means plenty of bucks something Ward has struggled to attain...

I like Groves but charisma and a big support are things he lacks.......

Unfortunately guys like Chavez can get title shots off their Daddy's name and limited success.......Would have been the same for camacho jr If he'd have been Mexican and not Puerto Rican.........

Mexican fans are the greatest fans in the World.......

Sean I never said that....(Hagler-Mugabi...Sancjez-Nelson).......If It's a close barnstormer then everyone wins...........But let's face it.....It won't be.....and even after a barnstormer where does Groves go ??

I think if it is a barnstormer and Groves loses, he deserves credit. That's all. I agree, if he is dusted with ease he is going back down a level (probably to a rematch with Degale), but I do think there are circs in which he can lose and get some credit for his performance.

see your point but.............These days..

1. Brits are embracing winners and ditching the loser mentality........

2. There are so many Brits fighting for world titles........A good performance doesn't cut it like it used to.......

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Seanusarrilius wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Consensus was Macklin was unlucky against Sturm........A little bit different.

Have to remember Chavez jr like his dad has a big following.......and means plenty of bucks something Ward has struggled to attain...

I like Groves but charisma and a big support are things he lacks.......

Unfortunately guys like Chavez can get title shots off their Daddy's name and limited success.......Would have been the same for camacho jr If he'd have been Mexican and not Puerto Rican.........

Mexican fans are the greatest fans in the World.......

Sean I never said that....(Hagler-Mugabi...Sancjez-Nelson).......If It's a close barnstormer then everyone wins...........But let's face it.....It won't be.....and even after a barnstormer where does Groves go ??

I think if it is a barnstormer and Groves loses, he deserves credit. That's all. I agree, if he is dusted with ease he is going back down a level (probably to a rematch with Degale), but I do think there are circs in which he can lose and get some credit for his performance.

see your point but.............These days..

1. Brits are embracing winners and ditching the loser mentality........

2. There are so many Brits fighting for world titles........A good performance doesn't cut it like it used to.......

I still have love for the gallant loser

I think us Brits still love a valiant loser that goes out on his shield giving it everything and shows he cares.

Andy Murray a couple of Wimbledons back crying.

I think he just has to be competitive and give Froch a tough fight.  I still think this is too early for him,  he is a good technician, quick hands and footmovement, his defence is underrated, his punch power is overrated.  

I don't think his opposition since the Degale fight has been all that great, many cite the Johnson fight, but Johnson was clearly past it going into it on the back of 3 losses, Groves threw the Kitchen sink at him and couldn't stop him.  

The Gonzalez fight was a good stoppage though its worth noting it took Adonis stevenson only 2 rounds to put him away, it Took Miranda only 1 round to stop a sierra which took Groves 6.  I'm not saying he has any power which he clearly has but does he have enough to trouble froch?  I can't see it.

He has a chance and if he is competitive in defeat it shouldn't effect his standing, but if he gets obliterated ala Bute/Cleverly its a long road back.

If beating Degale, Smith and Johnson means it's too early for him.........

Who does he beat to get him ready for Froch ???????????????????

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:If beating Degale, Smith and Johnson means it's too early for him.........

Who does he beat to get him ready for Froch ???????????????????

I've been asking this since the fight was announced but only seem to get half arsed replies.

I know Mate........it's like saying Is Biggs ready for Tyson ???

Who does he beat to get ready..........

He can adapt to the style or he can't........beating stiffs won't help.

If he fought either Stieglitz or Bika he still wouldn't be seen as ready for a world title fight and a loss to either of them is more damaging than losing to Froch. He's in a win win situation.

If he beat Stieglitz or Bika he becomes a world champion though........

If he loses to Froch and beats any of them he becomes a joke champion like barker.....

Not win..... win..

We don't know how good Groves is that's why we pose the question, If he'd faced Bika that would've give us a good barometer where Groves is at. He could be a chinless wonder as Froch suggests or he might pull it out the hat, like Dave I'm hoping the latter, the lad has handled himself very well and yet to see an interview where he has been disrespectful.

Cheers Rodders

Froch is a level above Bika.........Styles make fights too.......

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:If beating Degale, Smith and Johnson means it's too early for him.........

Who does he beat to get him ready for Froch ???????????????????

These are definitely good fights to have for Groves at this stage of career, I'm not arguing that, but don't think they are enough to prepare him enough for froch by a long shot.  Johnson was really just a name for his record, much like Degale v Sanavia,  I know theres been comparisons with Froch but the Johnson he fought was far more mobile and brimming with confidence after his fights with Cloud and Green,  Since that time Johnson has rapidly deteriorated.

Who else has he fought?  Sierra, Gonzalez, and some German guy, these fighters aren't even ranked in boxrecs top 30, and not only that they all have a similar comeforward pressure style designed to make Groves look better than he appears.

I would have liked to see him fight some highly ranked fighters with different styles who are also prospects and hungry to progress mixed with some seasoned campaigners.  To name names I would suggest fighters like Magee, Sartisan, Mohammadi,  Edwin Rodriguez, one of the Dirrells, The south african Oostazen, even that Dyah Davis who Degale fought, all fighters that would give Groves something to think about whilst gaining invaluable experience and help him become battle hardened and better prepared for the likes of Froch.  

Don't get me wrong I do give him a chance as he is clearly talented, and I think its pretty obvious that if he was a bit more experienced, had more fights against better opposition he would be far better prepared and I'd then give him more of a chance where as now we can only speculate.

Volcanicash wrote:I think he just has to be competitive and give Froch a tough fight.  I still think this is too early for him,  he is a good technician, quick hands and footmovement, his defence is underrated, his punch power is overrated.  

I don't think his opposition since the Degale fight has been all that great, many cite the Johnson fight, but Johnson was clearly past it going into it on the back of 3 losses, Groves threw the Kitchen sink at him and couldn't stop him.

The Gonzalez fight was a good stoppage though its worth noting it took Adonis stevenson only 2 rounds to put him away, it Took Miranda only 1 round to stop a sierra which took Groves 6.  I'm not saying he has any power which he clearly has but does he have enough to trouble froch?  I can't see it.

He has a chance and if he is competitive in defeat it shouldn't effect his standing, but if he gets obliterated ala Bute/Cleverly its a long road back.

No easy thing though stopping Johnson, he hasn't be stopped since 1997. Worth remembering that one of those three defeats was Froch, another was Bute....no bad company to be in really. Not saying he wasn't past his best but it's not like he'd lost to nobodies in the fights before Groves.

And Groves put him down remember. Not many have managed that.

I think Groves needs to do what Ward did. Adopt a come forward counter punching style ie step in, make Froch commit to an attack and then pick him off.

Ward made Froch miss and pay instead of playing Froch's game and allowing him to tee off first. If Groves can adopt such a style is yet to be seen but I don't see him doing it rather he will circle the ring throwing pot shots.

Re Hampo/Kingmonkey

Absolutely agree Johnson is one tough customer, but I'd be willing to bet Groves landed more power punches on him in that fight than anyone else has in Johnson's whole career, I can remember thinking the knockdown was more a slip/balance issue than anything but regardless, I can't say I'm surprised as the sheer volume of Groves powerpunches must have made some impact, and I'd be willing to bet if Froch had to take that amount of sustained punishment then he'd be seriously hurt. And in spite of the win I don't think Groves actually learnt much in that fight as Johnson was really just a shadow of his old self.

Volcanicash wrote:Re Hampo/Kingmonkey

Absolutely agree Johnson is one tough customer, but I'd be willing to bet Groves landed more power punches on him in that fight than anyone else has in Johnson's whole career, I  can remember thinking the knockdown was more a slip/balance issue than anything but regardless, I can't say I'm surprised as the sheer volume of Groves powerpunches must have made some impact, and I'd be willing to bet if Froch had to take that amount of sustained punishment then he'd be seriously hurt.  And in spite of the win I don't think Groves actually learnt much in that fight as Johnson was really just a shadow of his old self.

I daresay he learned a few things in there....mainly about needing the ability to remain focused and get the job done or "grind out the win" to quote Jim Watt. I'm sure it can be frustrating to hit a guy with everything you have in the locker and for him to STILL be standing in front of you.

As I've said before, my biggest fear for Groves is that he's occasionally switched off and got tagged and he simply can't afford to do that against Froch. His focus needs to be absolute and, if he can maintain that then I genuinely believe he can cause a huge upset.

Its easy to say Groves must do what Ward did but Groves skillset is nowhere near Wards, but if he can somehow employ certain things Ward did he'l go the distance. I can see Froch putting him down once or twice and win a clear UD. Groves has another problem 'he fails to concentrate for the entire round'. Theirs no way in hell Froch will get stopped, 3/1 Froch points is where my money is, will be going with a few mates. Anyone been Manchester to watch fight before?

I have twice mate and its a bloody great atmosphere and night. Not as good as Nottingham mind.

Of groves does what he just said he would do at the final presser, then he goes no further than one round period.

Think Groves needs to use his superior athleticism and mobility to keep out of the danger zone and frustrate Froch, only commiting when he sees the opening, pretty much raiding tactics. I expect he'll have a similar game plan to the one used in the DeGale fight, and I think James moves a little quicker than Froch, so he may be able to clearly bank the early rounds. If he can maintain that to take a points win, I'll give him credit for being able to stick to the game plan vs one of the most intimidating men to ever fight at 168. I'm not ruling out a Groves TKO or KO either, as he may actually be a bigger puncher than Froch.

But I think a lot will depend on Froch's physical condition, because if he is anywhere close to how he was vs Bute and Kessler 2, I can see him outlasting George and being able to set up a late KO. He also has a way of nullifying guys with faster hands and feet, with the exception of Dirrell and Ward. And Groves can't fight up close and spoil like those 2.

But if Froch is on the decline, I don't think it will be by much as he's looked great in his last 3 fights. So, providing there's no controversy, I'll still give Groves credit if he pulls off the upset.

Quotes from Groves:

"Carl thinks I'm going to run but he's wrong, I'm going to come out and meet him in the middle," said Groves.

Addressing Froch in person, Groves continued: "I'm going to win the jab exchanges and I'm going to hit you with two right hands just to let you know I can do it whenever I want.

"Second round I'm going to do the same, but hit you with more right hands.

"Third round I'm going to push you onto your back foot. You're going to have to see what's coming next."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/boxing/25031359

I think Groves is purposely trying to rile Froch, get him angry. So I guess he thinks an angry Froch will expend a lot of energy early in the match & get careless with his defence, then aim to take control in later rounds when Froch runs out of gas (maybe).