Dan Cole a touch arrogant or what?

Reading the recent article in the DM sports section reveals that Dan Cole is a touch upset and even indignant at being benched for the Pumas game. He emotes that he was unable to "peak" for the NZ match. Staggering that a player of his relative currency and long standing should come out with such childish tetchiness.

Of course, SL and his coaches have no right of reply in the media, as to do so would inflame the story to epic proportions (well, in English Rugby terms anyway).

My advice to the prim a dona (spelling?) would be to look to himself, look inward and consider his contributions and ask himself what he has to do to make himself the undisputed first choice England tighthead that can not be dropped. Not go whining to the press.

Might it have just been that the coaches were minded to have a 'look' at Wilson because he had been training/playing well and had not had a start? Either way Cole should keep his mouth shut in public and concentrate on his own game. He doesn't do himself or England any favours.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2510767/Dan-Cole-disappointment-picked-sub-play-Argentina.html

Its nice to see players so keen to be in the team. Its wasnt long ago that it appeared players wanted to be anywhere BUT in the England squad.

That will spurr Wilson on a little more to win that shirt. Having two quality TH's really battling for that shirt...England win all the way.

Players believe in their abilities, so it is understandable that they do have feelings of disappointment when benched.

I remember O'Driscoll being upset over the Lions tour.

Biltong wrote:Players believe in their abilities, so it is understandable that they do have feelings of disappointment when benched.

I remember O'Driscoll being upset over the Lions tour.

Dont start Billtong.

, just an example mate.

Consider the comment retracted, anyone that starts a O'Driscoll debate will be benched

To be honest I don't think Cole has set the world alight in 2013, he is lucky that the rest of the squad is so inexperienced otherwise I'm not sure he would have started the week before either.

Biltong wrote: , just an example mate.

Consider the comment retracted, anyone that starts a O'Driscoll debate will be benched

You have to consider that hype of a story sells news being far more of any cause of indignatition than the actual facts.

If a journalist asks,"Dan were you annoyed at missing the Argentina game?" and he says anything whatsoever there is grounds for an article to be written. How are we the innocent rugby adoring public to know what the actual fact of the situation is.

Surely every rugby player wants to start every game? It's hardly surprising Cole was upset.

Bathman_in_London wrote:To be honest I don't think Cole has set the world alight in 2013, he is lucky that the rest of the squad is so inexperienced otherwise I'm not sure he would have started the week before either.

Cole IMO was England's best player in the 6 nations. He was very effective at slowing ball down and competing at the breakdown and an excellent scrummager. His form dipped a little afterwards.

GunsGerms wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:To be honest I don't think Cole has set the world alight in 2013, he is lucky that the rest of the squad is so inexperienced otherwise I'm not sure he would have started the week before either.

Cole IMO was England's best player in the 6 nations. He was very effective at slowing ball down and competing at the breakdown and an excellent scrummager. His form dipped a little afterwards.

Luckily for England Wilson seems to have improved dramatically under Neal Hatley and Allan Ryan at Bath RFC. England almost have competition at tighthead, they certainly have a good replacement now. And importantly in a position where they seriously lack depth.

Maybe Cole is used to being the only tighthead available?

Cole is very overated in my opinion, although he is young and has time on his side, I think that at the moment he is not as good as some people make out,it is not his fault, it's just the media and fans bigging a player up before he is at that standard, we are all guilty of it, especially us Welsh but there are better English tightheads out there than him and he needs to just get his head down and concentrate on becomming a world class forward, by the time he reaches thirty years old he could be one of the best.

Cole is one of the best in the business but has taken time to adapt to the new scrum laws, whereas Wilson seems to have done very well straight away. It was right to play Wilson instead of Cole and in the end Cole had a great game against the Kiwis showing that it spurred him on. We need arrogant players, the best sports people in the world are arrogant, its that self belief, will to win, never want to be second. I also like honesty rather than corporate, personality devoid, media sound bites... of course he wants to play every game, of course he hates being benched, and by benching him he'll work harder.

Oh come on LD...he's not over rated he is an excellent TH. Who is better in England...and to be honest on top form theres only a few that would be better in the world. Im not exagerating there either.

Also refering to Englands TH's we're in an extrodinary position of either having past it never hasbeens or an array of youngsters coming through with barely any experience, so to say England has better shows a lack of knoweldge of the English game.

Young lads like Scott Wilson could be very could but are a work in progress...

GunsGerms wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:To be honest I don't think Cole has set the world alight in 2013, he is lucky that the rest of the squad is so inexperienced otherwise I'm not sure he would have started the week before either.

Cole IMO was England's best player in the 6 nations. He was very effective at slowing ball down and competing at the breakdown and an excellent scrummager. His form dipped a little afterwards.

Sheer volume of rugby causing him to tire as much as anything I thought Guns. As a Tigers fan I could be said to be bias but at the same time I see him play more than others and there was never really a single moment his form dropped it was more just burn out over time IMO. Not that he was ever playing particularly badly, just not quite to his usual standards!

Come the summer he should be very much due a break so we could see Wilson getting a real chance to prove himself along with the youngsters getting an opportunity to separate themselves out a bit. Thomas, Brookes and PDJ I'd all have on similar pegging with no-one knocking the door down.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Oh come on LD...he's not over rated he is an excellent TH. Who is better in England...and to be honest on top form theres only a few that would be better in the world. Im not exagerating there either.  

Also refering to Englands TH's we're in an extrodinary position of either having past it never hasbeens or an array of youngsters coming through with barely any experience, so to say England has better shows a lack of knoweldge of the English game.

Young lads like Scott Wilson could be very could but are a work in progress...

Geordie, are you for real ? I think that just because he is a forward and he plays for Leicester then all of a sudden he must be awesome. I do not buy into the new scrum laws excuse either, I saw him play against Wales in the last six nations and he was destroyed by Gethin Jekins, a forward not reknown for scrummaging. Look, I am not saying he is rubbish, he is where he is, and that is a very good tight head forward for his age, I for one would not pick him in the Welsh side ahead of Samson Lee, but if you all stop bigging him up like you have on this post, and just let him get on with his game, by the time he reaches his prime he could be the best lose head in the world, but just for now, he is not at that level yet.

LordDowlais wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Oh come on LD...he's not over rated he is an excellent TH. Who is better in England...and to be honest on top form theres only a few that would be better in the world. Im not exagerating there either.  

Also refering to Englands TH's we're in an extrodinary position of either having past it never hasbeens or an array of youngsters coming through with barely any experience, so to say England has better shows a lack of knoweldge of the English game.

Young lads like Scott Wilson could be very could but are a work in progress...

Geordie, are you for real ? I think that just because he is a forward and he plays for Leicester then all of a sudden he must be awesome. I do not buy into the new scrum laws excuse either, I saw him play against Wales in the last six nations and he was destroyed by Gethin Jekins, a forward not reknown for scrummaging. Look, I am not saying he is rubbish, he is where he is, and that is a very good lose head forward for his age, I for one would not pick him in the Welsh side ahead of Paul James or Gethin Jenkins, but if you all stop bigging him up like you have on this post, and just let him get on with his game, by the time he reaches his prime he could be the best lose head in the world, but just for now, he is not at that level yet. 

Shot yourself in the foot a bit there. He is a TH. How else could Gethin have "destroyed" him against Wales. Personally I am a big fan. We don't have anything close to him at Tight Head in Ireland.

Dowlais, Cole is a tighthead, not loosehead.

Yes sorry I know he is a a tighthead, as I have stated on an above post above, I just got lost in my typing, and of course the sarky gits come on here and cannot wait to tell me. 

I still stand by what I said above though, just swap lose head for tighthead.

Are you sure you know he's a TH, Dowlais? You not only called him a LH but also wrote this  

LordDowlais wrote: for one would not pick him in the Welsh side ahead of Paul James or Gethin Jenkins

Or do you think PJ and GJ are tightheads too?

Are you sure you know he's a TH, Dowlais? You not only called him a LH but also wrote this  

LordDowlais wrote: for one would not pick him in the Welsh side ahead of Paul James or Gethin Jenkins

Or do you think PJ and GJ are tightheads too?

A TH is as good as the rest of his pack (i mean a top class TH isnt going to stop his pack going backward on his own), we as a team were second best by a long way that day.

That has no reflection of them or him as a player. every team has a bad day at the office...as a Wales fan you should kow that well.

Cyril wrote:Are you sure you know he's a TH, Dowlais? You not only called him a LH but also wrote this  

LordDowlais wrote: for one would not pick him in the Welsh side ahead of Paul James or Gethin Jenkins

Or do you think PJ and GJ are tightheads too?

AAAaaaarghhhhh......

Like I said I got lost in my typing, I was going on about how Gethin Jenkins got the better of him and I had lose head on my mind. 

LordDowlais wrote:

Cyril wrote:Are you sure you know he's a TH, Dowlais? You not only called him a LH but also wrote this  

LordDowlais wrote: for one would not pick him in the Welsh side ahead of Paul James or Gethin Jenkins

Or do you think PJ and GJ are tightheads too?

AAAaaaarghhhhh......

Like I said I got lost in my typing, I was going on about how Gethin Jenkins got the better of him and I  had lose head on my mind. 

Your honour I motion for the witnesses testimony to be stricken from the record.

Considering he suffered a "dip" in form post 6N he was still able to put away the Saints and Toulon front row with Tigers.

I think the only reason Tigers didn't suffer more at the start of the season was Cole. Remember he was paired with Mulipola an 8 that moved to prop in his 20s and Tom Youngs a hooker that had never had to hook. Not a massive technical base alongside him there.

Submachine wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Cyril wrote:Are you sure you know he's a TH, Dowlais? You not only called him a LH but also wrote this  

LordDowlais wrote: for one would not pick him in the Welsh side ahead of Paul James or Gethin Jenkins

Or do you think PJ and GJ are tightheads too?

AAAaaaarghhhhh......

Like I said I got lost in my typing, I was going on about how Gethin Jenkins got the better of him and I  had lose head on my mind. 

Your honour I motion for the witnesses testimony to be stricken from the record.

 
What tesimony ? If you read what I posted on the origonal post I clearly state tight head, and I have said that I would not pick him before Samson Lee.

Honestly......

formerly known as Sam wrote:Considering he suffered a "dip" in form post 6N he was still able to put away the Saints and Toulon front row with Tigers.

I think the only reason Tigers didn't suffer more at the start of the season was Cole. Remember he was paired with Mulipola an 8 that moved to prop in his 20s and Tom Youngs a hooker that had never had to hook. Not a massive technical base alongside him there.

Surely Wilson's improvement meaning competition for the TH shirt will only encourage improvements in Cole. Competition for places is vital in areas that lack strength in your squad.

I would say as a Scotsman I would take him in an instance

Very strong scrummager and very good in ruck time

Not a dynamic runner, but not that slow around the park

Certainly hope Wilson pushing on brings out the best in Cole. From the article it looks like Cole is not ready to even loan the 3 shirt to anybody else. He has been quality for us this season.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Certainly hope Wilson pushing on brings out the best in Cole. From the article it looks like Cole is not ready to even loan the 3 shirt to anybody else. He has been quality for us this season.

Cole has been quality from the start. Adam Jones was very encouraging of both after last years game in Cardiff.

"People have come out and said that Marler was shocking, but he's good. I'd never played against him before and he's a better prop than I thought he was. He's only 22 and he's excellent - both loose-heads were, and Dan Cole is only 25.

"They are only going to get better, and I'm pretty sure that come the World Cup England are going to be formidable opposition."

I think we can all agree that Adam jones knows a hell of a lot more about scrummaging than any of us.

But Adam Jones wont ever have scrummed against Dan Cole?

I agree with him about marler,many doubted him but hopefully his Argentina tour then his subsequent performance v New Zealand has shown he is very good.

GeordieFalcon wrote:But Adam Jones wont ever have scrummed against Dan Cole?

I agree with him about marler,many doubted him but hopefully his Argentina tour then his subsequent performance v New Zealand has shown he is very good.

Adam Jones has plenty of experience playing against Cole for both Wales and the Ospreys. They have also toured as Lions together so I would imagine he has a very good idea of how good Cole is.

Whether they play on the opposite side of the scrum is tantamount irrelevant, both sides of the scrum have equal input to the result of a scrum. If Cole is doing well, Jones will know as much as Jones's loosehead opposing Cole.

Ok fair point...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ok fair point...

He is a massive asset to England and still a young player, plenty of years left in him and already a player the opposition have to be wary of.

Put it this way, the best tight head props in the world are from the Northern hemisphere.
Adam Jones
Nicholas Mas
Dan Cole
Castro can all do a job over the big southern 3.

However Figallo in my mind is coming up very close behind Adam Jones. I would still say that Adam is the best but Figallo is a great player and not far behind Adam.  

But my main point is that the great tight heads of the world come from Europe because of the way we play, which is a far more compact and smash our opponents approach. None of the big three teams f the world have a strong scrum really do they.
Dan is young and is a strong scrummager when on form (like New Zealand) and he is still only young and will improve. However i do agree with LD that is a bit over rated in the loose, compared to other props like Domingo, Figallo, Jenkins, Woodcock or Healey he isn't really that dominant as these players in the loose.

Don't think he came across as arrogant.

Hope he is though.

Contrary to the rumour (put about by meek folk), only the arrogant will inherit the world.

In the loose Cole is a mixed bag. In defence he really is excellent and is like having an additional backrower in the way he slows the ball and steals it off the tackled player. In attack he is very average and doesn't really offer much yardage ball in hand.

JHammer, when comparing his attributes in the loose you are naming loosehead props in Domingo, Jenkins, Woodcock and Healey. Generally speaking looseheads are generally more mobile and more dynamic than the tighthead due to the differing demands of their position. Having said that I'd say Cole is as good as all of those players named in terms of breakdown ability.

formerly known as Sam wrote:In the loose Cole is a mixed bag. In defence he really is excellent and is like having an additional backrower in the way he slows the ball and steals it off the tackled player. In attack he is very average and doesn't really offer much yardage ball in hand.

JHammer, when comparing his attributes in the loose you are naming loosehead props in Domingo, Jenkins, Woodcock and Healey. Generally speaking looseheads are generally more mobile and more dynamic than the tighthead due to the differing demands of their position. Having said that I'd say Cole is as good as all of those players named in terms of breakdown ability.

I knew someone would say that, but do you really think looseheads are more mobile. Personally a prop to me have the same attributes, yes they are different tactically but mobility wise they are usually fair matched i would say. Missed Owen franks out on that list who is at nearly every ruck for the All Blacks.
I do guess he is av very mobile prop and does get around the pitch very well, all i'm saying is that he isn't as effective when in the break down like Jenkins, Healey or Domingo and not as good in the loose with ball carrying as Owen Franks, Healey or Domingo.

I'd say there's little to no difference between Cole and any top class prop at the breakdown. Coley successfully slows down more ball than the entire England backrow, at the ruck there is no prop better. Ball carrying there is plenty of props better.

I've not been in there myself (and never will be) but tightheads are supposed to have to exert more energy due to scrummaging against both hooker and loosehead. Hence why you generally see the loosehead appear more around the park.

So other than Owen Franks you haven't named a tighthead prop who is better than Cole around the field?

BamBam wrote:So other than Owen Franks you haven't named a tighthead prop who is better than Cole around the field?

Adam Jones is better, great in open play, can pass like a centre, high tackle count, low missed tackle count, plenty of turn overs for Wales and ospreys and he doesn't concede so many penalties at the ruck as Cole either. The penalty count against Cole alone, in the Six Nations last year was ridiculous.

Maesteg. Is a 'tongue in cheek' smiley missing from your post? Adam is a great scrummager but the rest is open to question. He looks like a weeble on legs and usually takes a few minutes to get up once he's on the ground. On second thoughts may be that's why you think he is good at slowing oppo ball down.

A weeble on legs.  That was a trip down memory lane.

Actually a front row of weeble wobbles would be pretty handy at scrum time. Yes 9. Weebles move forward, then back. Opposition front row collapse. No need for loose play. Just knock on all the time.

Hmm, clearly another case of misleading journalism- I suspect Cole was led to this answer by specific, sneaky questioning which has been removed from the article thus taking what he's says out of context

BamBam wrote:So other than Owen Franks you haven't named a tighthead prop who is better than Cole around the field?

Bam Bam you dont get my point, i'm not saying tighheads in general im saying PROPS. Both sides of the scrum

And Masteg is right, even though Adam isn't the most mobile, isn't a ball carrier or a break down great but he does have a high tackle count especially at fringe play and he is always a supportive runner which means he is always rucking over (as he isn't a ball carrier).
Props have there own qualities and all the props i have named are individually good at certain things.
Im not saying Cole is a bad tight head, it's just people make him out to be the best mobile prop in the world. I'm actually complimenting him so chill out guys.

Cole is very good and has been very good for Emgland and started last season well but anyone who doesn't think his level dropped (overplayed?) at the end of the 6N and the Lions Tour is kidding themselves. Also, I gather Jones was struggling at Club level this season too. As has Franks. I'd say the French props have looked good so far this year.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Cole is very good and has been very good for Emgland and started last season well but anyone who doesn't think his level dropped (overplayed?) at the end of the 6N and the Lions Tour is kidding themselves. Also, I gather Jones was struggling at Club level this season too. As has Franks. I'd say the French props have looked good so far this year.

The two best playing tight heads at the moment are Mas and Figallo. Adam hasn't had a good run of games really since the Lion tour and yes hasn't been at his best a club level.

Dan Cole  
He plays for England and Leicester therefore he is undisputed world beater.

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Dan Cole  
He plays for England and Leicester therefore he is undisputed world beater.

 Too right