Danny Cipriani's England Future

Danny Cipriani has just had another good game for Sale. He turned 26 the other day so, fitness permitting, he is probably about halfway through his rugby career. Clive Woodward recently called for him to be included in the England set-up, but he's not necessarily the best man to have singing your praises.

Does anyone believe that he will ever have a route back into an international career? Lancaster has never ruled him out but you don't get the impression he really has him on his radar. When asked, the England coach just says Cipriani needs to keep playing well for his club.

Currently, the starter is Farrell, while Burns is seen as our potential flair flyhalf, with Ford also in that frame too. Flood is seen almost as an experienced old lag - although he's still only 28 - who can kick goals reliably, knows the squad's patterns, and has a bagful of caps.

The topic of England's best flyhalf gets discussed on other threads, so I'm not really looking to air that debate. I'm more interested in whether there really is any way for Cipriani to make an impact which would encourage Lancaster to include him at the expense of one of the other 10s.

Mike Catt is on the coaching team, and he was famously critical of Cipriani in 2009, saying he didn't deserve to be in the England team (which was probably right). There were rumblings that some of the players at the time were cheesed off with Cips which didn't help his cause. True, few of them are still involved today but Rowntree would know what went on, and have some opinions on the matter. Sale doesn't have a lot of England representation, so there aren't players near the coaches who can vouch for him today.

His club is another matter. Sale are doing all right this year but they no-one is tipping them for a play-off place, which means he won't have probably many big stages to shine this season. Can there really be any level of performance which will catch the eye?

Perhaps there just is no way back for him. It's unlikely anyone would spell that out but you wonder whether Lancaster would rather exhaust every other option before he though of resorting to Cipriani.

As it stands, Cockerill is giving Lancaster a hard time for not playing Flood more. Since he was inclined to give Tomkins several starts, he doesn't come across as someone who quickly drops players. It's hard to see even Burns and Ford getting enough rope to hang themselves so we are unlikely to start running through a string of 10s any time this season.

Sorry, can you combine this with kingelderfield's thread. I hadn't spotted it was already up and well under way.

I liked a lot of Ciprianis play when he was out here for the Rebels. One try he scored from 60 meters out- his first solo run for the season showed what hes capable of. Clearly a confidence player he looks like he'll need a bit of mothering at the International level in terms of his terrible defence and off field issues (previous anyway).

But I prefer his style to Farrels who I find very limited in terms of running a backline, athleticism.

Cips has more potential- weve seen what Farrel can do...there is no more to be seen there, but at least Farrell can stand on his own. Cips is the more fragile risk prone gamble type, and therefore hard work.

Cirpriani should get another look in pre RWC but with Farrell literally the prodigal son i can't see it
Something has to change though, Flood offers nothing as no 2

With Lancaster in charge I guess not. Lancaster does not like unpredictable players does he?

Cipriani probably sealed his own fate awhile back. It's on record that he took delight by laughing at an England loss watching the game with the Saxons on TV whilst in training camp.

That kind of behaviour is career defining

In terms of what people hope to see from Cipriani, I don't see him offering anything above Burns or Ford.

I think the triumvirate of Farrell, Burns & Ford give us a good mix of options in style of play, and they'll each have their part to play in different match-ups for a numer of years.

tigerleghorn wrote:Cipriani probably sealed his own fate awhile  back. It's on record that he took delight by laughing at an England loss watching the game with the Saxons on TV whilst in training camp.

That kind of behaviour is career defining  

It was poor behaviour, but it shouldn't end his international chances if he has changed his attitude (I have no idea if he has). Quade Cooper has found his way back for Australia after poor behaviour led to his exile. Lancaster has already forgiven Care (drunkenness), Clark (horrendous foul play), and Hartley (abusing a referee), so it's hard to see why Cipriani ought to be blackballed forever.

I think Cios and Burns are both pretty similar, Cips has the exp, caps and baggage. Burns doesn't have the baggage but nor does he have the experience either.

I for one think we're beginning to see the long term appearance of a more mature well rounded Cipriani. That might be good for England.

A Saxons backline of Cips, Burrell and Trinder would be good and Saxons is where I'd have him next year.

Rugby Fan wrote:

tigerleghorn wrote:Cipriani probably sealed his own fate awhile  back. It's on record that he took delight by laughing at an England loss watching the game with the Saxons on TV whilst in training camp.

That kind of behaviour is career defining  

It was poor behaviour, but it shouldn't end his international chances if he has changed his attitude (I have no idea if he has). Quade Cooper has found his way back for Australia after poor behaviour led to his exile. Lancaster has already forgiven Care (drunkenness), Clark (horrendous foul play), and Hartley (abusing a referee), so it's hard to see why Cipriani ought to be blackballed forever.

Ciprianis misdemeanor was against his own team and country. His mickey taking of Johnson would not go down well either. The other players you mention apart from Cooper did nothing against their team or country. Coopers a Kiwi anyway isn't he?

Look at Cooper's revival, i think coaches need to put aside their own egos and manage players better…or end up like Deans

Its not as if cips doesnt have competition.

Cooper is in a different position in that Australia do not have the strength in depth to make ignoring him worthwhile. Right now for England there is real competition for 10, and I hope it spurs one of the three obvious candidates on to become the kind of player we need to move on to the next level.

I really don't have an inkling what Lancaster thinks. But Lancaster does appear to follow structures. Therefore, Cipriani would be below any Fly Half in the EPS (England or Saxons). And I think that makes sense. Let him produce across a full season. He does have a bunch of history to overcome.

doctor_grey wrote:I really don't have an inkling what Lancaster thinks.  But Lancaster does appear to follow structures.  Therefore, Cipriani would be below any Fly Half in the EPS (England or Saxons).  And I think that makes sense.  Let him produce across a full season.  He does have a bunch of history to overcome.

It does make sense. It also means Cipriani's future isn't entirely in his hands. Nothing he can do on the field can take him up the pecking order, only down. He needs others to fail - or get injured - before he can enter the picture. Farrell will stay in the frame, even if he suffers a drop of form, because of his past achievements. It's hard to see Lancaster deciding to dispense with Flood, Burns or Ford in the near future, partly because it's unlikely they will all see enough game time over the rest of the season for Lancaster to make that decision.

That's a consequence of Cipriani's behavioural record, so he doesn't have strong grounds for complaint.

I do wonder what impact it will have on Lancaster's thinking if English clubs have no European competition next year. There will be fewer high profile games for players to stand out. On the one hand, there will be a level playing field, in that players will only have the Aviva in which to show what they can do. On the other hand, it might make Lancaster more conservative, causing him to focus development of his squad on players he has already identified. If that's how it plays out in the 2014-15 season, then no-one new to him will get a look before the World Cup, regardless of what the do for their clubs.

If there was only the Prem then surely Lancaster would have more time to run camps with the players and see what they've got? There'd be whole weeks free for team get togethers and I'm sure some opposition teams can be found to play against.

Danny boy has to keep his head down. Keep playing well and he will be back on the radar.

Yappysnap you say Danny boy has the experience. He has less caps than both Farrell and Flood. Not too many more than Burns.

Bar one game, Danny boy was not good for England in my opinion.He's got to prove he's better than the other guys at 10 at club level let alone international level. He has started well this season but more work to do.

I would still take the likes of Burns,Ford,Myler, Farrell, Goode, Flood and Hodgson over Danny.

Goalkicking will come into the calculation for all the 10s since none of our potential full backs can do the job. Twelvetrees has the occasional pot but hasn't done any regular kicking in a match for a while. Anyone know if Alex Goode takes place kicks?

I'm sure Goode has kicked regularly for Sarries when he's covered for Farrell and Hodgson, also remember him being pretty bad at it too. 36 would probably be slightly better.

Beshocked didn't realise that about Cips, thought he had a few more then Burns one or two caps. But then that is also all under a totally dif regime.

End of the day I want the best players in the Eng side. Right now that's Farrell by a fair distance. Let's reassess him once he has a settled (and first choice) backline around him and hopefully an on form Ben Youngs giving him a slightly more broken defence to play against.

Yes Alex Goode takes place kicks. He's actually quite good. I think he kicked all his goals vs Exeter on the weekend when having to step into the shoes of Hodgson who went off injured in the 1st minute.

There seems to be a myth around Cipriani that he is Carlos Spencer mark II and its only the boring old farts at HQ who are stopping him transforming England into a better version of NZ.

The reality is he was a very good young player, who has never hit the same heights following a bad leg break and who has been badly handled by a succession of management teams. Unless he starts tearing it up for Sale and doing it consistently across a whole season, he won't get a look in.

Personally I don't think England need him, Farrell, Burns and Ford will be fighting it out in the coming years I think. Burns offers a similar level of flair without the baggage anyway.

Bathman_in_London wrote:The reality is he was a very good young player, who has never hit the same heights following a bad leg break and who has been badly handled by a succession of management teams. Unless he starts tearing it up for Sale and doing it consistently across a whole season, he won't get a look in.

I think that's a good summary. Not as good as many think, but still in with a chance if he proves it.

offload wrote:...I think that's a good summary.  Not as good as many think, but still in with a chance if he proves it.

I agree with Bathman's summary too. I do wonder though, whether Cipriani is still in with a chance even if he plays well. One poster on this thread has already said his past behaviour puts him beyond the pale. If he hasn't actually been blackballed by the current management, then, from a practical point of view, it's difficult to see how he will be given a chance any time soon, outside injury. To get into the Saxons, he has to displace Ford or Myler.

He probably needs to single-handedly drag Sale to a play-off spot. Even in his pomp, he didn't have that kind of ability.

Rugby Fan wrote:

offload wrote:...I think that's a good summary.  Not as good as many think, but still in with a chance if he proves it.

I agree with Bathman's summary too. I do wonder though, whether Cipriani is still in with a chance even if he plays well. One poster on this thread has already said his past behaviour puts him beyond the pale. If he hasn't actually been blackballed by the current management, then, from a practical point of view, it's difficult to see how he will be given a chance any time soon, outside injury. To get into the Saxons, he has to displace Ford or Myler.

He probably needs to single-handedly drag Sale to a play-off spot. Even in his pomp, he didn't have that kind of ability.

I was that poster RF. To me (and I would guess the RFU) he is considered to be too much of a risk or a slightly de-tuned Henson if you like.

There are a few players who blotted their copybooks out on the lash who have been welcomed back, players with dodgy disciplinary records too.

He made the big mistake of dissing Johnson in front of a room full of Saxons players and actively cheered on Wales in their defeat of England whilst watching the game on TV. For some, myself included, this is more than should be expected from a player wishing to represent his country.

He's toast, gone, forget him.

tigerleghorn wrote:He's toast, gone, forget him.

I had largely forgotten him. Unfortunately, commentators during Sale games, and the occasional media pundit, keep bringing up the question as if it is a defining one for English rugby. Almost a bit like Barnes vs Andrew after Barnes had thrown his toys out the pram and refused to warm the bench again.

The difference is that Barnes kept being a key man for Bath, playing alongside current internationals, and winning club titles by the hatful. And, outside that pair, we didn't have a large number of contenders for the spot.

Rugby Fan wrote:

tigerleghorn wrote:He's toast, gone, forget him.

I had largely forgotten him. Unfortunately, commentators during Sale games, and the occasional media pundit, keep bringing up the question as if it is a defining one for English rugby. Almost a bit like Barnes vs Andrew after Barnes had thrown his toys out the pram and refused to warm the bench again.

The difference is that Barnes kept being a key man for Bath, playing alongside current internationals, and winning club titles by the hatful. And, outside that pair, we didn't have a large number of contenders for the spot.

Good point. Cipriani can be mercurial like Barnes was and both chose to pick a fight with the RFU. The powers that be went for the predictable guy who towed the line and didn't rock the boat..Rob "Squeaky" Andrew, now a "Blazer" himself.

Don't get into a p1ssing contest with the suits!

Rugby Fan wrote:Goalkicking will come into the calculation for all the 10s since none of our potential full backs can do the job. Twelvetrees has the occasional pot but hasn't done any regular kicking in a match for a while. Anyone know if Alex Goode takes place kicks?

I probably wouldn't opt to have them as my first choice kicker, but Twelvetrees and Goode could certainly do a job if called upon. I've seen them both kick very well, but then also have a few hiccups as well.

Elliot Daly is another player that can kick goals. I haven't seen him take too many close up attempts, but he seems pretty succesful long range, quite a few +50m ones last season. Could be a handy back up kicker in the 23 shirt or 13 if Tuilagi is injured.

I'm pretty sure Eastmond used to kick for Wigan as well.

Did anyone see his great work and kick for Cueto's try vs. Worcester? I watched it on Supersport and I have to say I was very impressed. Ok its Worcester but still impressive.

Not his greatest fan as I never saw him do anything bar the odd solo breakaway try for the Rebels... but if he can create tries such as the above consistently he will get back into the fold for sure.

I think that bus knocked a lot of sense into him, if he keeps puting in the performances that he is for Sale then I have no problem with him playing for England again. Young men make mistakes and he got too big for his boots but he does seem to have learned from his mistakes.

fa0019 wrote:Did anyone see his great work and kick for Cueto's try vs. Worcester? I watched it on Supersport and I have to say I was very impressed. Ok its Worcester but still impressive.

Not his greatest fan as I never saw him do anything bar the odd solo breakaway try for the Rebels... but if he can create tries such as the above consistently he will get back into the fold for sure.

The crossfield kick to Cueto for his try was by Will Addison. Cipriani's contribution in the build up was a poor chip that he did well (was a bit lucky) to claim, followed by a nice offload to Tuitupou.

timhen wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Did anyone see his great work and kick for Cueto's try vs. Worcester? I watched it on Supersport and I have to say I was very impressed. Ok its Worcester but still impressive.

Not his greatest fan as I never saw him do anything bar the odd solo breakaway try for the Rebels... but if he can create tries such as the above consistently he will get back into the fold for sure.

The crossfield kick to Cueto for his try was by Will Addison.  Cipriani's contribution in the build up was a poor chip that he did well (was a bit lucky) to claim, followed by a nice offload to Tuitupou.

Stand corrected. It was a mighty kick whoever hit it.

Cipriani was on BBC 5 Live on Thursday and the interviewer was pretty relentless in trying to get him to say he should be playing for England.

(about 46 minutes in via the following link)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03mkzty/5_live_Sport_5_live_Rugby_28_11_2013/

Cipriani isn't the most eloquent speaker but he played a straight bat and said most of the right things.

When asked whether being selected for England again would feel like "mission accomplished", he admitted he probably felt like that when he was first capped and that wasn't the right attitude. Any selection ought to be backed up with a good performance.

Dwayne Peel, his scrum half at Sale, says he has noticed a change in his attitude over the last six months and believes he is starting to deliver more consistency. No-one in the studio seemed to think his selection was imminent. Paul Grayson said he thought Cipriani was saying the right things but probably needs a run of 20-30 good games, not just 10 or so.

On whether it's now or never for 26 year old Cipriani, Grayson pointed out the he went to a World Cup at 33, so didn't think you could rule anything out.

As we mentioned earlier in the thread and on a few others, Cipriani's personal issues were maturity, emotional stability, and sometimes simply getting on with this teammates.  His on-field issues were lack of defense and inconsistency.  After that horrific leg break (which not everyone would recover from, by the way), he was simply not the same player.  

Now, I am not implying the leg break is responsible for these issues, but it certainly might have made him more reluctant in certain situations.  In my opinion, Cipriani needs a full season playing well at Sale with no distractions before being considered for anything else.  And given Lancaster's proclivity to stick to his plan, its rather hard to see Cipriani breaking into consideration.

A last point, a question really.  I recall his first full season at Wasps that he was garnering attention.  He was playing at fullback, and not doing a half-bad job there.  There was no discussion -that I remember - of defensive weaknesses.  Do any Wasps supporters remember?  And can add to that?  I mention this, not because I want to slot him in at 15, but to see if defense was an issue then.

doctor_grey wrote:...he was simply not the same player...

In the interview, he's asked whether he thinks he's playing the best rugby of his career right now. Cipriani pauses before saying something about how the sport always moves on, and you have to constantly adapt. He does say he believes he's understands the game much better now.

In that short pause, I got a faint sense the man might have been thinking "Of course this isn't the best I've ever played. I felt I had the world at my feet before I did my leg".

doctor_grey wrote:As we mentioned earlier in the thread and on a few others, Cipriani's personal issues were maturity, emotional stability, and sometimes simply getting on with this teammates.  His on-field issues were lack of defense and inconsistency.  After that horrific leg break (which not everyone would recover from, by the way), he was simply not the same player.  

Now, I am not implying the leg break is responsible for these issues, but it certainly might have made him more reluctant in certain situations.  In my opinion, Cipriani needs a full season playing well at Sale with no distractions before being considered for anything else.  And given Lancaster's proclivity to stick to his plan, its rather hard to see Cipriani breaking into consideration.

A last point, a question really.  I recall his first full season at Wasps that he was garnering attention.  He was playing at fullback, and not doing a half-bad job there.  There was no discussion -that I remember - of defensive weaknesses.  Do any Wasps supporters remember?  And can add to that?  I mention this, not because I want to slot him in at 15, but to see if defense was an issue then.

Defence at 15, whilst not easier, is different though, being able to defend at 15 means good cover tackling and positional awareness, at 10 it's more front up aggressive tackling so being capable at one doesn't mean being capable at the other

That's a fair point, CJ. At 10, a player is in the middle of the muddle and is frequently targeted by forwards or hard direct running centres. Fullback, as you say, is very different.

Ironically, as I aged (not so gracefully, as I have been reminded), I had to give up playing at fullback. Always a centre, I was put at fullback to minimise contact. My tackling was OK but I lost the extra step in my increasingly decrepit legs. So back to the centres to clog up both our attack and defense.....

BT Sport did a short segment on Cipriani yesterday. He apparently had a decent game against Saracens where he picked up a full house.

Dallaglio said he "needs to be in the Saxons" but I'm not sure if that mean Dallaglio is pushing for him to be included, or just thinks it should be Cipriani's target.

It was always my understanding that the EPS agreement provided a structure for the RFU and clubs but the England coach was still free select other players, if not get guaranteed training time with them.

However, Lancaster said he was unable to consider both Dickinson and Ewers when Ben Morgan seemed undercooked and our no. 8 options were looking thin.

I got the impression the BT Sport guys thought it would be harsh to drop Myler (since it would probably be him of the current incumbents) but thought it might be useful to have the freedom to consider Cipriani if he hits a purple patch. Under the way the EPS stands currently, you can't have both.

Lancs can make 6 changes to the EPS next month. Whether that's as a whole squad or just the elite i'm not certain but my hunch is it's the whole squad.

Danny still needs to sort out his 'D'. For all his attacking talent (when it works), he is still a revolving door in defence.
OK, maybe that is a bit harsh but he is still protected in the Sale back line - same as he was in the Wasps side.

Having said that - Freddie Burns hasn't really kicked on from last seasons cameo's and isn't in the best of form at the moment + his kicking % is quite low.

propdavid_london wrote:Having said that - Freddie Burns hasn't really kicked on from last seasons cameo's and isn't in the best of form at the moment + his kicking % is quite low.  

Sadly, the more our backline looks ineffective, the greater the importance of slotting our penalties. At some point, we'll have to give priority to improving the first, and be prepared to live with the consequences of not having a guaranteed high return from place kicks.

Cips has made too many enemies in the game, including a massive enemy of mike catt who is on the selection panel and alot of the RFU old guard. Steve Black seems to be doing a great job with him but on the Lancasters Credit in the bank approach to selection he's probably somewhere around here

Farrell
Flood
Burns
Ford
Myler maybe Cips

Would need alot of injuries for him to get his shout and TBH with the Alex Goode love and as many full backs on the pitch approach they would probably play Goode there first !

Englands current 3 fly halves :
Farrell
Flood
Burns

Pecking order is the exact inverse of their similarity to Cipriani.

Even if we ignore his past issues, mistrust from Catt, and general flakiness he just isnt the type of fly half that Mt Lancaster is looking for.

You could argue he is "Englands Quade Cooper" but it doesnt appear to be what England are looking for rightly or wrongly. The tactics and style of rugby favoured by the coaches may well have a far bigger say on his international future than his past weaknesses do.

Perhaps mildly ironic that his biggest trumpet blower is SCW who mostly picked Wilkinson and Hodgson, meanwhile people still blame the guy who gave him a chance when hed already been in trouble under Ashton (Johnson) for ruining his career. Now Lancaster who if we cast our minds back 2 years was going to revolutionise Englands attacking play by picking flair backs and setting them free is picking Owen Farrell and not making him stand flat.

Lets face it England are stuck in an eternal circle of those not coaching England pointing out how nice it would be to pick the likes of Cipriani whilst those coaching England find that they are either too scared to or get let down when they do (also see Barkley).

On a purely human level its a pity for him because he does finally seem to have changed a bit and have his feet on the ground and is doing all that was ever asked of him, shut up and concentrate on playing consistently good rugby whilst working on your weaknesses.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Englands current 3 fly halves :
Farrell
Flood
Burns

Pecking order is the exact inverse of their similarity to Cipriani.

Even if we ignore his past issues, mistrust from Catt, and general flakiness he just isnt the type of fly half that Mt Lancaster is looking for.

You could argue he is "Englands Quade Cooper" but it doesnt appear to be what England are looking for rightly or wrongly. The tactics and style of rugby favoured by the coaches may well have a far bigger say on his international future than his past weaknesses do.

Perhaps mildly ironic that his biggest trumpet blower is SCW who mostly picked Wilkinson and Hodgson, meanwhile people still blame the guy who gave him a chance when hed already been in trouble under Ashton (Johnson) for ruining his career. Now Lancaster who if we cast our minds back 2 years was going to revolutionise Englands attacking play by picking flair backs and setting them free is picking Owen Farrell and not making him stand flat.

Lets face it England are stuck in an eternal circle of those not coaching England pointing out how nice it would be to pick the likes of Cipriani whilst those coaching England find that they are either too scared to or get let down when they do (also see Barkley).  

On a purely human level its a pity for him because he does finally seem to have changed a bit and have his feet on the ground and is doing all that was ever asked of him, shut up and concentrate on playing consistently good rugby whilst working on your weaknesses.

He reminds me a bit of Catt. When Catt played FH. Only Cips is faster. Still won't get him an England call though.

I wouldnt waste my time with him...

Farrell, Ford and Burns should be focused on. Burns just needs the Glos pack to get sorted to get his confidence up abit. Cant be motivating playing behind that pack!

It's remarkable how much attention Cipriani is getting from rugby pundits. His old coach Ian McGeechan declares his qualified support in the Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/dannycipriani/10517857/Danny-Cipriani-steals-show-for-Sale-Sharks-and-proves-England-credentials.html

Can he get back into the England side? He certainly has the ability to do so. At 26, he is still not too old. If he has got that real desire to do things for the right reasons, I certainly wouldn’t discount his being back in the England picture.

To be fair to Cipriani he has been putting in some good performances when I have seen him. Seems to be keeping up that momentum. Showing more maturity.

In my opinion I would have him ahead of Burns and Flood as of now. Things have changed since my last post a month ago.

Farrell,Ford and Cipriani would be my three fly halves at the moment.

Loving all those picking up Cipriani after a handful of decent games.

Hes no different to Henson, and its only a matter of time before he drops another clanger...and the knives will be out for him again...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Loving all those picking up Cipriani after a handful of decent games.

Hes no different to Henson, and its only a matter of time before he drops another clanger...and the knives will be out for him again...

You have to think the second coming of Quade Cooper is also a factor in the renewed interest.

Geordiefalcon he is different to Henson. Cipriani has kept his head down, has not caused anymore controversy. He's played well when I have seen him. If he keeps this up he might well be back in England contention. The difference is he's actually found some consistency and has some stability.

When aren't the knives out for a lot of players? Most sports fans in general are a fickle folk in my opinion. When players are doing well, everything's fine but if they dip in form......

Look at the England cricket team - from heroes to zeroes in the space of 6 months. They'll be back though.

Henson hasn't completely fallen away at Bath, Cipriani is at least performing well for Sale at the moment.

His time has gone.

Even ignoring the 3 front runners - Ford is showing his class at Bath and that young lad at Exeter (Slade?) looks like he will be useful.

Cipriani is well down the pecking order

Cipriani has all he talent needed, but lacks something upstairs.

It only ever seems a matter of time before it all goes jubblies up for him. If he carries this form on for another season or so get him back involved as he's certainly performing above 80-90% of flyhalves in the AP currently.

Softly softly catchee monkey with Cippers.