Welsh exodus thread AKA another one bites the dust thread

[The Saint]

First topic message reminder :

I can't find the original transfer thread so apologies if this is clogging up the forum.

JD2 to Clermont - confirmed

Latest rumours is that Bradley Davies is set to link up with former coach Dai Young at Wasps. Ian Evans may be joining Toulon and the rumours that AWJ is going to Clermont are still circling. With Charteris already at Perpignan, that's potentially our first 4 lock fowards playing outside of Wales....

[Chunky Norwich]

Spider I understand your frustrations, but unfortunatly the Regions can't get crowds which is the life blood of the game.
 
I can only see this whole thing going one way and that is Union controlled clubs.

What makes you think 2 Union controlled sides called West Wales Squids and East Wales Tortoises would have any better support?

If that happenned, then overnight you'd lose thousands of (season ticket holding) fans already prepared to invest good time and money into the welsh domestic game. It's this kind of ill thought out plan that a Union alternative would be better that irks me.

[ScarletSpiderman]

Spider I understand your frustrations, but unfortunatly the Regions can't get crowds which is the life blood of the game. I was in Cardiff last saturday to watch the game, and the ammount of people who were out to watch that game whether in the stadiumn or in the pubs. You don't get that with the regions, people just dont seem interested in them.
You could argue that its because the top players aren't playing but even when they do the crowds dont come.
 
It doesn't help that the regions are now compeleting with two premier league football clubs.
 
I can only see this whole thing going one way and that is Union controlled clubs, its unfortunate, but I think thats what's going to happen. We will still have the same problems with clubs under preforming as that situation will only be solved when the Northern Hempshire calander structure gets sorted. And I think the SH will continure to dominate because of this.

 
 
A load of people turn up to the international game are not even aware of what players play for the regions, and that is not me being disrespectful it is from past experience. Also as I said if the WRU did just put up a five min promo on the big screen, or have posters up, or sent out regional updates on their e-newsletter then these international attendees may actually turn up for regional games.

Also I agree in an idea world a union ran system with four teams funded and run by the union would be perfect. Sadly the union we have are not the sort of people I would trust to run anything. IF the talk of them trying to coerce players away from the regions are true, then they are corrupt and very dodgy businessmen. And how can you trust people like that to take an even handed approach to things. How can you ensure that an area that are producing local talent won't be robbed of their right to see that local talent, because another team in the unions umbrella are favoured etc. The farce of the union trying to buy George North and place him at the Blues (but nor trying to centrally contract Phillips btw) is a pretty good example of how fair and evenly handed the men at the top will treat the regions when they get their grubby little paws on them.

[Chunky Norwich]

If they were would that not be better than our current franchised system? Do we not want a system more like what Ireland have than we currently do?

If not then please tell me why...!!

Moving players to and from regions, playing players out of position, ability to recruit who they want, control the budget, turn the Ospreys into a development team, change the colour of the kit, rest half the team for rounds 3 and 4 of the Heineken Cup because they want to play Australia again.

Yeah sounds ace.

[Dre280783]

Chunky,

You seem to think I am in favour of this, I am not! I am a big ospreys fans, all I am saying is that this is the way I see going.

Is it the right way? I don't know but it's the only thing I can see that we can do to stop the exodus of players.

I just can't see the union giving the regions more more money because they think that they will spend it on foreign players.

I would love to hear what you think the solution is

[ScarletSpiderman]

I agree that the WRU appear to want the regions to be under their control. If they were would that not be better than our current franchised system?

I think I covered some of the other stuff in one of the posts between your and this one. Like I said a fairly run union running teams is fine, this union is corrupt, if you ask me. Also, as someone with shares in the Scarlets, the idea of running us down till we are broke and then swooping in to pick our remains and publicly 'save the day', sickens me. IF they want to by the regions out then buy the regions out fairly, like decent human beings.

[Coleman]

Seems like Welsh rugby is dead. Anyone know if the Ice Hockey is any good?

[geoff999rugby]

If they were would that not be better than our current franchised system? Do we not want a system more like what Ireland have than we currently do?

If not then please tell me why...!!

Moving players to and from regions, playing players out of position, ability to recruit who they want, control the budget, turn the Ospreys into a development team, change the colour of the kit, rest half the team for rounds 3 and 4 of the Heineken Cup because they want to play Australia again.

Yeah sounds ace.

Which of course is nothing like what it is in Ireland so why would it be in Wales  

[ScarletSpiderman]

Spider I understand your frustrations, but unfortunatly the Regions can't get crowds which is the life blood of the game.
 
I can only see this whole thing going one way and that is Union controlled clubs.

What makes you think 2 Union controlled sides called West Wales Squids and East Wales Tortoises would have any better support?

If that happenned, then overnight you'd lose thousands of (season ticket holding) fans already prepared to invest good time and money into the welsh domestic game. It's this kind of ill thought out plan that a Union alternative would be better that irks me.

The support will be even more of an issue then. People from the far west, pembs etc, have a long journey to PYS (time wise) than folks from Cardiff do, so to reduce regions (and lets face it they will be in Cardiff and Swansea as that is logical), there will be fans lost down to the amount of time/money/effort involved to attend week in week out. It is far easier to make the effort for a one off international than it is to bring yourself to do it week in week out, come rain, shine, snow etc.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

The farce of the union trying to buy George North and place him at the Blues (but nor trying to centrally contract Phillips btw) is a pretty good example of how fair and evenly handed the men at the top will treat the regions when they get their grubby little paws on them.

Excellent point. If the WRU are so keen to 'reinvest' in the game and keep Welsh players in Wales, where was the help to sign Phillips? Why weren't they trying to secure his sevices while he was a free agent?

[ScarletSpiderman]

Seems like Welsh rugby is dead. Anyone know if the Ice Hockey is any good?

Full of Yanks and Cannucks at the Devils I believe, but still not anywhere near as good as they were in the late 90s.

[Dre280783]

Spider you have to be careful, we don't know if this what the WRU are actually doing! I would be surprised if they were.

Personally I think Rogers is alright, to be fair to him, he's certainly made the WRU richer even if it has been to the determent of the regions.

I really hope we don't go down the route we are discussing, as I fear it will take some time for the fans to forgive and forget.

[HammerofThunor]

Geoff, just how much control do the IRFU (main) have over the Provincial sides? How much autonomy do the Provincial Branchs have? Could the control the IRFU have been easily replicated by a Participation Agreement?

Because all the stuff they have in Ireland, NIQ limits, that stuff about not renewing contracts for NIQ players and only having one in a positon, rest periods, etc. could easily be conditions of a PA.

Why can the IRFU give more in funding to the Provinces AND have central contracts?

[ScarletSpiderman]

The farce of the union trying to buy George North and place him at the Blues (but nor trying to centrally contract Phillips btw) is a pretty good example of how fair and evenly handed the men at the top will treat the regions when they get their grubby little paws on them.

Excellent point. If the WRU are so keen to 'reinvest' in the game and keep Welsh players in Wales, where was the help to sign Phillips?

It doesn't fit the plan, but last year it supposedly did.

[Coleman]

I agree that the WRU appear to want the regions to be under their control. If they were would that not be better than our current franchised system?

I think I covered some of the other stuff in one of the posts between your and this one.  Like I said a fairly run union running teams is fine, this union is corrupt, if you ask me.  Also, as someone with shares in the Scarlets, the idea of running us down till we are broke and then swooping in to pick our remains and publicly 'save the day', sickens me.  IF they want to by the regions out then buy the regions out fairly, like decent human beings.

RBS are in court at the moment for doing something similar aren’t they. Hate that it's our union and regions in this mess, Wales must look like a real joke to outsiders.

[ScarletSpiderman]

Spider you have to be careful, we don't know if this what the WRU are actually doing! I would be surprised if they were.

Personally I think Rogers is alright, to be fair to him, he's certainly made the WRU richer even if it has been to the determent of the regions.

I really hope we don't go down the route we are discussing, as I fear it will take some time for the fans to forgive and forget.

I have not said that it is what they are doing, I have said that IF it is true then it is wrong etc. Since I read the allegations of cover ups etc in the Rebecca TV scandal I have had even less time for Lewis, Pickering and Co. than I had before (which was not much).

[maestegmafia]

I agree that the WRU appear to want the regions to be under their control. If they were would that not be better than our current franchised system?

I think I covered some of the other stuff in one of the posts between your and this one.  Like I said a fairly run union running teams is fine, this union is corrupt, if you ask me.  Also, as someone with shares in the Scarlets, the idea of running us down till we are broke and then swooping in to pick our remains and publicly 'save the day', sickens me.  IF they want to by the regions out then buy the regions out fairly, like decent human beings.

RBS are in court at the moment for doing something similar aren’t they. Hate that it's our union and regions in this mess, Wales must look like a real joke to outsiders.

Why do you think they are corrupt? they are non profit making organisation representing the game of rugby union in Wales. Where would be the corruption?

Everyone is in a very difficult position here the WRU, the Regions, welsh rugby beyond the regions too. What makes me angry is that there has been so much work to improve Welsh rugby by so many at clubs, regions and national level and we have seen fruition of that. We are one of the best teams in the World, we were a long way from that fifteen years ago.

The game needs to put the past to the side and look at what we need to do for the future for the good of the game and not have everything influenced by previous history.


What do people want to see for International, Regional and club rugby in Wales?

[Chunky Norwich]

I just can't see the union giving the regions more more money because they think that they will spend it on foreign players.

I would love to hear what you think the solution is

So why did the Union reject the regions idea of top up contracts 2 years ago? i.e - the Union knows exactly where the money is going because there are 30 odd players identified every July that get an extra £200k in addition to their regional salary. It was a workable solution for both parties.

But Roger didn't want to know. He instead used that money for debt repayment and for boosting his turnover figures. Now we are where we are.

[ScarletSpiderman]

Maes - there is no point me trying to explain my opinion to you mate, you clearly are argue with it all day, so I stand down, you win. My side of this debate is done!

[HammerofThunor]

Wales doesn't look a real joke to outsiders. You just haven't found the right balance yet following the introduction of professionalism. The 2003 implementation of the Regions didn't exactly go to plan. Hopefully whatever the next big change (a change of some sort is needed) will be the one that gets things right.

[Welshmushroom]

How can they afford not to sign the participation deal? I cant see the Dragons or Scarlets even surviving a year without WRU funding.

Interestingly the Blues senior management have gone to New Zealand enlisting the help of Paul Tito to help sign a raft of New Zealanders. They probably will try to exploit the 3 year residence similar as the Paterson situation (who once registered for Wales was released so never actually being able to be selected for Wales during his stint at the Blues).

Its a risky move by all parties because Gwyn's outcome could be on the cards as the only long term winner here will be the WRU if they refuse to work together.

Maybe not such a bad thing to be honest as the Regions had been ill conceived from the outset and far to many chefs in the kitchen.

For me North Wales should definitely have a region (they pack out every stadium where rugby is offered them up there as shown by matches scarlets and the U20's have played there). West Wales despite its playing talent can't support 2 regional teams. To be honest I have my doubts if south east wales despite its population can even support 2 sides. Could be the WRU may reduce to 3 regions and base them on a geographical area. I appreciate the Regions feel hard done by but the only ones that will suffer in that scenario are the fans who would be denied top class rugby in specific areas.

Bottom line there are far to many sub standard players and foreigners plying their trade, with their pay masters constantly looking to exploit foreigner policies to maximise availability.

[maestegmafia]

Maes - there is no point me trying to explain my opinion to you mate, you clearly are argue with it all day, so I stand down, you win.  My side of this debate is done!

I see your side of the debate but look at the realities of it mate. The WRU aren't going to give the regions more than they have budgeted for and the regions can't compete in top level competition with the way they run their business.

So what do we do from here?

Personally I would like to see the system based on the current Irish model and I think Wales would be more competitive at all levels if that were the case.

Regions to come under union management, the coaches signed and paid for by the WRU. Welsh players signed to WRU contracts, academies funded by the WRU at regional level.

Profits made by regions through TV and ticket sales used to fund the players not contracted to the WRU.

[Chunky Norwich]

Chunky,

You seem to think I am in favour of this, I am not! I am a big ospreys fans, all I am saying is that this is the way I see going.

Is it the right way? I don't know but it's the only thing I can see that we can do to stop the exodus of players.

I just can't see the union giving the regions more more money because they think that they will spend it on foreign players.

I would love to hear what you think the solution is

[Dre280783]

Chucky, I don't follow, all I said is I doubt the WRU will give the regions more money because they would spend it on foreign players, wasn't talking about top up money.

How do u know the WRU had more money give top ups? I thought the WRU said that they couldn't give more money as they don't have it but they could centrally contract all the players but that would mean the regions wouldn't receive any money from the uni?

By the way I am ask  questions, not making statements so it would be nice if you replied rather than attacking what I am asking

[Casartelli]

Maes - there is no point me trying to explain my opinion to you mate, you clearly are argue with it all day, so I stand down, you win.  My side of this debate is done!

I see your side of the debate but look at the realities of it mate. The WRU aren't going to give the regions more than they have budgeted for and the regions can't compete in top level competition with the way they run their business.

So what do we do from here?

Personally I would like to see the system based on the current Irish model and I think Wales would be more competitive at all levels if that were the case.

Regions to come under union management, the coaches signed and paid for by the WRU. Welsh players signed to WRU contracts, academies funded by the WRU at regional level.

Profits made by regions through TV and ticket sales used to fund the players not contracted to the WRU.

Has there been any financial analysis done to forecast whether the WRU could afford to pay for anything like this?

What did that secret PWC report say?

[Chunky Norwich]

Chucky, I don't follow, all I said is I doubt the WRU will give the regions more money because they would spend it on foreign players, wasn't talking about top up money.

You seem to be very confused. The top up money would ensure the Union know where the regions are spending it.

How do u know the WRU had more money give top ups? I thought the WRU said that they couldn't give more money as they don't have it but they could centrally contract all the players but that would mean the regions wouldn't receive any money from the uni?

By the way I am ask  questions, not making statements so it would be nice if you replied rather than attacking what I am asking

I've explained all these points already. I can't help that you are not reading.

WRU offered to buy the arms park for £11m. That's not a sensible use of money. They have also paid off debt faster in the last 5 years than needs be.

[Cardiff Dave]

Chucky, I don't follow, all I said is I doubt the WRU will give the regions more money because they would spend it on foreign players, wasn't talking about top up money.

How do u know the WRU had more money give top ups? I thought the WRU said that they couldn't give more money as they don't have it but they could centrally contract all the players but that would mean the regions wouldn't receive any money from the uni?

By the way I am ask  questions, not making statements so it would be nice if you replied rather than attacking what I am asking

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22542332

[Cardiff Dave]

WRU offered to buy the arms park for £11m.

Worth a lot more than that. Hope CAC did their usual and told the WRU to feck off.

[Chunky Norwich]

WRU offered to buy the arms park for £11m.

Worth a lot more than that. Hope CAC did their usual and told the WRU to feck off.

Of course they did.

I'm not suggesting that the WRU have a mountain of cash. But the facts are that

WRU turnover has rocketed since the 2008 participation agreement
Wages in Europe have doubled
Yet the WRU thinks the Welsh regions deserve to be funded the same in 2018 as 2008.

[maestegmafia]

Maes - there is no point me trying to explain my opinion to you mate, you clearly are argue with it all day, so I stand down, you win.  My side of this debate is done!

I see your side of the debate but look at the realities of it mate. The WRU aren't going to give the regions more than they have budgeted for and the regions can't compete in top level competition with the way they run their business.

So what do we do from here?

Personally I would like to see the system based on the current Irish model and I think Wales would be more competitive at all levels if that were the case.

Regions to come under union management, the coaches signed and paid for by the WRU. Welsh players signed to WRU contracts, academies funded by the WRU at regional level.

Profits made by regions through TV and ticket sales used to fund the players not contracted to the WRU.

Has there been any financial analysis done to forecast whether the WRU could afford to pay for anything like this?

What did that secret PWC report say?

Not so far as i know and I don't think the PWC report alluded to the fictitious bounteous mounds of gold buried under the pitch in Cardiff that stop the grass growing the way we all wish it would.

Instead of everyone on here bickering about what did and has happened, it would be great to hear some posters suggest some real alternatives, or maybe just visions of the rugby utopia they would wish to achieve in Welsh rugby.

I don't think my concept would work because without a major reshuffle of finances, re organising the repayments with the bank loan for the stadium and restructuring regional rugby from pretty much the ground up, there are no funds.

This is the critical essence of the problem.

Welsh rugby is maybe not broke, but not as profitable as the game is in other countries we compete against. Almost every nation in World Rugby is in a similar situation and trying to decide on their best course of action.

Allowing our regional game to become a feeder to richer leagues is not what might happen it is what has been and still is happening. Do we want to prevent it?

If we do then we have to work out a way to do so and shelling out money to briefly halt the issue at hand will not work as a realistic on going solution.

[Cardiff Dave]

WRU offered to buy the arms park for £11m.

Worth a lot more than that. Hope CAC did their usual and told the WRU to feck off.

Of course they did.

I'm not suggesting that the WRU have a mountain of cash. But the facts are that

WRU turnover has rocketed since the 2008 participation agreement
Wages in Europe have doubled
Yet the WRU thinks the Welsh regions deserve to be funded the same in 2018 as 2008.

Agreed.

[Casartelli]

Bounteous mounds is a perfect vision of utopia, Maes.

[Cardiff Dave]

Maes - there is no point me trying to explain my opinion to you mate, you clearly are argue with it all day, so I stand down, you win.  My side of this debate is done!

I see your side of the debate but look at the realities of it mate. The WRU aren't going to give the regions more than they have budgeted for and the regions can't compete in top level competition with the way they run their business.

So what do we do from here?

Personally I would like to see the system based on the current Irish model and I think Wales would be more competitive at all levels if that were the case.

Regions to come under union management, the coaches signed and paid for by the WRU. Welsh players signed to WRU contracts, academies funded by the WRU at regional level.

Profits made by regions through TV and ticket sales used to fund the players not contracted to the WRU.

Has there been any financial analysis done to forecast whether the WRU could afford to pay for anything like this?

What did that secret PWC report say?

Not so far as i know and I don't think the PWC report alluded to the fictitious bounteous mounds of gold buried under the pitch in Cardiff that stop the grass growing the way we all wish it would.

Instead of everyone on here bickering about what did and has happened, it would be great to hear some posters suggest some real alternatives, or maybe just visions of the rugby utopia they would wish to achieve in Welsh rugby.

I don't think my concept would work because without a major reshuffle of finances, re organising the repayments with the bank loan for the stadium and restructuring regional rugby from pretty much the ground up, there are no funds.

This is the critical essence of the problem.

Welsh rugby is maybe not broke, but not as profitable as the game is in other countries we compete against. Almost every nation in World Rugby is in a similar situation and trying to decide on their best course of action.

Allowing our regional game to become a feeder to richer leagues is not what might happen it is what has been and still is happening. Do we want to prevent it?

If we do then we have to work out a way to do so and shelling out money to briefly halt the issue at hand will not work as a realistic on going solution.

Google Andrew Hore.

[Casartelli]

"Google Andrew Hore"?

I'd rather Google bounteous mounds.....

...and just have....

[Cardiff Dave]

Bounteous mounds is a perfect vision of utopia, Maes.

I'll drink to that.

[Cardiff Dave]

"Google Andrew Hore"?

I'd rather Google bounteous mounds.....

...and just have....

I Binged it. Yowzer!

[maestegmafia]

Be careful lads you'll go blind...!

[Dre280783]

Chucky,

Mate you haven't answered one question, or actually read what I have written, your clearly just arguing for the sake of it.

[Cardiff Dave]

Chucky, I don't follow, all I said is I doubt the WRU will give the regions more money because they would spend it on foreign players, wasn't talking about top up money.

How do u know the WRU had more money give top ups? I thought the WRU said that they couldn't give more money as they don't have it but they could centrally contract all the players but that would mean the regions wouldn't receive any money from the uni?

By the way I am ask  questions, not making statements so it would be nice if you replied rather than attacking what I am asking

There was a surge in season ticket sales when Cardiff signed Jonah Lomu.

[Coleman]

Chucky, I don't follow, all I said is I doubt the WRU will give the regions more money because they would spend it on foreign players, wasn't talking about top up money.

How do u know the WRU had more money give top ups? I thought the WRU said that they couldn't give more money as they don't have it but they could centrally contract all the players but that would mean the regions wouldn't receive any money from the uni?

By the way I am ask  questions, not making statements so it would be nice if you replied rather than attacking what I am asking

There was a surge in season ticket sales when Cardiff signed Jonah Lomu.

The golden age ^_^

[doctornickolas]

Chucky, I don't follow, all I said is I doubt the WRU will give the regions more money because they would spend it on foreign players, wasn't talking about top up money.

How do u know the WRU had more money give top ups? I thought the WRU said that they couldn't give more money as they don't have it but they could centrally contract all the players but that would mean the regions wouldn't receive any money from the uni?

By the way I am ask  questions, not making statements so it would be nice if you replied rather than attacking what I am asking

There was a surge in season ticket sales when Cardiff signed Jonah Lomu.

There was, but signing 1 or 2 really top class players would be fine. They would indeed put bums on seats. However the regions are signing up all manner of mediocre Canadians, Romanians and Tongans who quite frankly are useless and no better than young talent we have here.

[Welshmushroom]

WRU offered to buy the arms park for £11m.

Worth a lot more than that. Hope CAC did their usual and told the WRU to feck off.

Of course they did.

I'm not suggesting that the WRU have a mountain of cash. But the facts are that

WRU turnover has rocketed since the 2008 participation agreement
Wages in Europe have doubled
Yet the WRU thinks the Welsh regions deserve to be funded the same in 2018 as 2008.

Agreed.

Firstly turnover may have increased but profits haven't. That means distribution of the money is still continuing. Yes they have opted to pay back the stadium debts faster but speaking as an accountant, that's just prudent, especially when you consider the fact the UK has been in recession. Interest payments could potentially cripple the WRU. While many on here don't agree, it is better for the WRU to be debt free of the stadium because the additional money spent on interest can then be re-distributed to the Grass Roots and Regional game. Also the WRU have been investing in the Grass roots side of the game which is imperative for our welsh youngsters.

Secondly, you make it sound as if the WRU has a bigger responsibility to its regions than the rest of wales. It doesn't. Why should they favour the regions more than the grass roots and local club rugby sides? They all are still shareholders and have an equal say. If anything the amateur side has a bigger voice than the 4 regions. Also when you consider the recent news that the Blues are shopping yet again for more non capped New Zealanders, why should the WRU give additional resources so that those resources are then spent on securing non welsh playing talent. I much rather see opportunities for youngsters in wales who may actually then have a valid opportunity for a career. Yes maybe our regions wont be the most successful sides around but if you look at regional rugby since its inception, even when sides like the Blues & Ospreys have spent ridiculous amounts on wages, they have failed to deliver in Europe. The Blues managed over a 2 year period with an excess of 5 million prior to the salary cap. That's more than a majority of UK based sides. How therefore did they not buy success? Bottom line for me is that we over pay our players. Our top stars don't get enough and the mediocre ones are paid to much, only because their non availability for wales and them being home grown makes them more attractive propositions and all 4 regions tend to drive their own player salaries. Granted now the salary cap is there this will no longer happen as it forces them to be more prudent.

I'm sick and tired of regional fans constantly believing the PR crap spun by the media and their clubs. The WRU does not owe the regions success. If anything the track record of our regional spending just shows the WRU are being prudent because they have not been spending wisely.

I just as passionate as any welsh rugby fan but for me our playing future (youth) is more important than any other aspect of the game. Players will come and go. The systems however can last a lifetime and I would rather those opportunities go to promising young welsh talent than a host of never good enough All Blacks or South Africans. All that is doing is creating more opportunities for other nations.

Am I being harsh on the regions? Probably. But I do believe that its is vital the WRU stay on top of their finances and foreign policies, because the regions (including my own - Dragons), have shown they will only use this money to buy players that do not benefit Wales. I'd be all for the WRU for distributing more money to the regions if for example that includes no foreigners or resident qualified players. That said they would probably spend that money on bidding on their own stars which again doesn't help squad sizes and development.

[bedfordwelsh]

WM,

We (Dragons) have unfortunately been one of the worst most probably for buying useless no good foreign players.

I haven't got a problem with Regions have foreign players if they are of the like of Rush, King, Tiatia, Montgomery etc etc but as you say lets not just waste our money on dross.

The advantage of having NWQ players is obvious in the fact that they are there all season round and not off with International call ups but look Munster and Leinster when they buy foreign they buy top class foregin.

[The Saint]

Ummm, Mushroom do you know what profit means? The WRU make more profit each year, bar 2012, or it may have been 2011 where they had less games in Cardiff.

[Sponsored content]