All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
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All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
I have to go on record and respectfully disagree with Sir Clive Woodward's post match comments following today's epic Ireland v All Blacks finale. Sir Clive's now well publicised take on the historic calendar clean sweep is that it somehow proves the All Blacks are beatable, and "far from" the best All Blacks side in history.
I'd like to question that assertion.
This team is the most experienced All Black unit in history. During this tour the All Blacks named the most experienced rugby team to ever take to the field (by total caps). This side is led by the most successful captain in rugby history, a man who at the end of the gruelling season claimed he was keen for a couple more games. In Kieran Read we already have the AB captain in waiting, a transition that elludes most sides following the exit of a world class leader.
The coaching staff also have continuity to the previous World Cup winning regime and have shown they can maintain an unbeaten record whilst carefully selecting and blooding new players. The fact that today's great escape was finished by Dane Coles and Ryan Crotty tells the story.
When Ryan Crotty crashed over for the match winning try today, I suspect many northern hemisphere fans and pundit might've asked "Ryan who?" but here was yet another AB rookie, who had fit seamlessly into the AB systems. Frankly, it could've been anyone on the end of that pass: Smith, Dagg, Jane, Piutau, Savea, Barrett; the AB's seem to have a finely tuned system for creating replaceable players. The fact that it was a rookie, executing the most crucial move of the season to seal an astonishing come back victory says a lot for the entire AB organisation, not just a few super star individuals who we may have relied on in the past.
Another thing that impresses me is the cohesive plan that NZ are taking into each game. The thing you will have heard Richie McCaw repeat almost ad nauseum in every post match interview when talking about being under pressure is something along the lines that they didn't panic, stuck to the systems they set out to use, and believed that if they got their execution right then they would win. To have an entire team single-mindedly implementing a plan they unanimously believe in must be the envy of teams such as the Wallabies who (according the Spiro Zavos today) are in a kind of civil war between factions.
I'd really like to know which AB team it is that Sir Clive believes is superior, or in fact which team in history was superior. I just can't see it. Touching again on Clive's point that NZ have looked beatable on this tour, it's just odd that he also chose this week to claim his team of 2014 were "too tired" following their world cup exertions and he should've taken a development squad but was not confident that the beating they would inevitably take would go down well at HQ. Well the AB's went through their world cup exertion and have just completed an unbeaten season. A task he thought was beyond his own acclaimed 2003 squad? Surely that is proof that this side is superior to the all conquering England greats of last decade?
On the second point about appearing beatable, I don't think anyone in NZ has or will ever believe that NZ are invincible. Denying this misconception seems more important to those who insist on saying it, it's an expression of fear to me. But if anything, this tour has surely shown that even with the seemingly endless seasons, the AB's have what it takes to manage their squad and maintain the standards required to beat all comers. We've seen the AB's surmount some peaks that have previously been beyond them this season: A win at Ellis Park against aggrieved Springboks, victory over France in Paris, England at Twickenham, a clean sweep of Australia and Argentina. They've overcome the unpredictable and expansive aspirations of Australia and France, the grueling and grinding close quarters combat of Argentina and England. The spirited emotional imperative of BOD and the Irish Golden Generation's last throw of the dice, again with Ireland at home. Under adversity they've stood strong and found a way to win ugly, and they've also cut loose and enjoyed themselves when the opportunity arose. They have also shown that the bogey of 2007 has been eradicated: the ability to win when it seems the officials have taken a set against the team, too.
Maybe Clive, and the knockers have a wider knowledge of AB history than me, but I certainly can't think of a better side in history.
I'd like to question that assertion.
This team is the most experienced All Black unit in history. During this tour the All Blacks named the most experienced rugby team to ever take to the field (by total caps). This side is led by the most successful captain in rugby history, a man who at the end of the gruelling season claimed he was keen for a couple more games. In Kieran Read we already have the AB captain in waiting, a transition that elludes most sides following the exit of a world class leader.
The coaching staff also have continuity to the previous World Cup winning regime and have shown they can maintain an unbeaten record whilst carefully selecting and blooding new players. The fact that today's great escape was finished by Dane Coles and Ryan Crotty tells the story.
When Ryan Crotty crashed over for the match winning try today, I suspect many northern hemisphere fans and pundit might've asked "Ryan who?" but here was yet another AB rookie, who had fit seamlessly into the AB systems. Frankly, it could've been anyone on the end of that pass: Smith, Dagg, Jane, Piutau, Savea, Barrett; the AB's seem to have a finely tuned system for creating replaceable players. The fact that it was a rookie, executing the most crucial move of the season to seal an astonishing come back victory says a lot for the entire AB organisation, not just a few super star individuals who we may have relied on in the past.
Another thing that impresses me is the cohesive plan that NZ are taking into each game. The thing you will have heard Richie McCaw repeat almost ad nauseum in every post match interview when talking about being under pressure is something along the lines that they didn't panic, stuck to the systems they set out to use, and believed that if they got their execution right then they would win. To have an entire team single-mindedly implementing a plan they unanimously believe in must be the envy of teams such as the Wallabies who (according the Spiro Zavos today) are in a kind of civil war between factions.
I'd really like to know which AB team it is that Sir Clive believes is superior, or in fact which team in history was superior. I just can't see it. Touching again on Clive's point that NZ have looked beatable on this tour, it's just odd that he also chose this week to claim his team of 2014 were "too tired" following their world cup exertions and he should've taken a development squad but was not confident that the beating they would inevitably take would go down well at HQ. Well the AB's went through their world cup exertion and have just completed an unbeaten season. A task he thought was beyond his own acclaimed 2003 squad? Surely that is proof that this side is superior to the all conquering England greats of last decade?
On the second point about appearing beatable, I don't think anyone in NZ has or will ever believe that NZ are invincible. Denying this misconception seems more important to those who insist on saying it, it's an expression of fear to me. But if anything, this tour has surely shown that even with the seemingly endless seasons, the AB's have what it takes to manage their squad and maintain the standards required to beat all comers. We've seen the AB's surmount some peaks that have previously been beyond them this season: A win at Ellis Park against aggrieved Springboks, victory over France in Paris, England at Twickenham, a clean sweep of Australia and Argentina. They've overcome the unpredictable and expansive aspirations of Australia and France, the grueling and grinding close quarters combat of Argentina and England. The spirited emotional imperative of BOD and the Irish Golden Generation's last throw of the dice, again with Ireland at home. Under adversity they've stood strong and found a way to win ugly, and they've also cut loose and enjoyed themselves when the opportunity arose. They have also shown that the bogey of 2007 has been eradicated: the ability to win when it seems the officials have taken a set against the team, too.
Maybe Clive, and the knockers have a wider knowledge of AB history than me, but I certainly can't think of a better side in history.
GloriousEmpire- Posts : 4411
Join date : 2013-01-28
Age : 51
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
haven't read your post. Just like to say a big welcome back GE. you were missed at xmas drinks. and we were thinking of you on the ireland nz thread as sexton was lining up his penalty kick. unfortunately he missed, and the rest, as they say, is history.
cant you be a bit more graceful in victory that the first couple of lines? are you really turning such a great game into a rant about clive woodward? really? trying to turn the best match of the year into an anyone-but-england thread? pathetic.
no-one gives a rats fart about clive woodward, inverdale or keith wood's opinions after such an awesome match.
cant you be a bit more graceful in victory that the first couple of lines? are you really turning such a great game into a rant about clive woodward? really? trying to turn the best match of the year into an anyone-but-england thread? pathetic.
no-one gives a rats fart about clive woodward, inverdale or keith wood's opinions after such an awesome match.
quinsforever- Posts : 6765
Join date : 2013-10-10
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
Don't think anyone's knocking them, and they certainly shouldn't be, but when you're talking about the finest All Black side ever, you have to accept that there are a couple of contenders for the position. Whineray's team of the early to mid-60s would rightly have its champions, as would the great Kirk/Shelford side of the late 80s and the Lomu-inspired juggernaut of the mid-90s.
My own choice would be the Meads-inspired side that reached its peak in '67 on the tour of the British Isles and basically looked unstoppable, almost some extra-terrestrial force. So many great names, including maybe the best-balanced back row of all time, and while I yield to no-one in my admiration for the current crew and accept that the game has changed beyond recognition over the past 45 years, I still can't think of a side against which the task of being competitive looked so herculean as the boys of '67.
Oldish bloke's view, obviously.
My own choice would be the Meads-inspired side that reached its peak in '67 on the tour of the British Isles and basically looked unstoppable, almost some extra-terrestrial force. So many great names, including maybe the best-balanced back row of all time, and while I yield to no-one in my admiration for the current crew and accept that the game has changed beyond recognition over the past 45 years, I still can't think of a side against which the task of being competitive looked so herculean as the boys of '67.
Oldish bloke's view, obviously.
captain carrantuohil- Posts : 2508
Join date : 2011-05-06
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
Good to see you back GE.
To be fair Quin. This post would probably have come up today. NZ media/fans have been asking this question lately. If they'd lost the game the question would probably be no for many people. They won so the debate goes on.
To be fair Quin. This post would probably have come up today. NZ media/fans have been asking this question lately. If they'd lost the game the question would probably be no for many people. They won so the debate goes on.
blackcanelion- Posts : 1989
Join date : 2011-06-20
Location : Wellington
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
Yeah, good to have you back GE. Good post and I agree with the sentiment regarding the ABs.
Although last night's game had an exciting finish, nothing beats Ellis Park for quality and enjoyability.
Although last night's game had an exciting finish, nothing beats Ellis Park for quality and enjoyability.
Guest- Guest
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
Well done new Zealand, a glorious year no doubt
But posts like this are arrogance personified.
A Glorious win but what about being humble in victory Empire, something i am sure the All Blacks understand but some of their fans just cannot grasp.
Yes your team is perfect, yet all perfect things end and the ABs will be no different, your seamless transition will eventually fail and you will lose again, though to say so and worse, write it, is some sort of rugby sedition it seems. You will fall off your perch and have to rebuild…you post cries out that the desperation to be the best is what counts and why you feel it necessary to go on about SCW's team of 2003 one can only speculate, who gives a damn what happened 11 years ago, only Clive. Perhaps the desperate need to be the best and have everyone bow before you has become more important than the rugby itself.
No one, least of all me would deprive you another moment of glory, New Zealand have been incomparable this year, they have staved off catching colds 13 times, but like the glorious empire your moniker alludes to, it will all come to an end, it's just a matter of who, where and when.
But posts like this are arrogance personified.
A Glorious win but what about being humble in victory Empire, something i am sure the All Blacks understand but some of their fans just cannot grasp.
Yes your team is perfect, yet all perfect things end and the ABs will be no different, your seamless transition will eventually fail and you will lose again, though to say so and worse, write it, is some sort of rugby sedition it seems. You will fall off your perch and have to rebuild…you post cries out that the desperation to be the best is what counts and why you feel it necessary to go on about SCW's team of 2003 one can only speculate, who gives a damn what happened 11 years ago, only Clive. Perhaps the desperate need to be the best and have everyone bow before you has become more important than the rugby itself.
No one, least of all me would deprive you another moment of glory, New Zealand have been incomparable this year, they have staved off catching colds 13 times, but like the glorious empire your moniker alludes to, it will all come to an end, it's just a matter of who, where and when.
Scratch- Posts : 1980
Join date : 2013-11-10
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
"it will all come to an end, it's just a matter of who, where and when."
...yeah...
but it was great while it lasted!
...yeah...
but it was great while it lasted!
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
it's not over yet!Taylorman wrote:"it will all come to an end, it's just a matter of who, where and when."
...yeah...
but it was great while it lasted!
Scratch- Posts : 1980
Join date : 2013-11-10
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
To be fair, GE said we don't think we're invincible. Don't mean to have a pop, but it's as if his reputation precedes him too much and he's not given a fair suck of the sav. Didn't read anything wumtastic in his post.
Guest- Guest
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
Fair comment ebop.ebop wrote:To be fair, GE said we don't think we're invincible. Don't mean to have a pop, but it's as if his reputation precedes him too much and he's not given a fair suck of the sav. Didn't read anything wumtastic in his post.
Scratch- Posts : 1980
Join date : 2013-11-10
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
Good article GE.
Biltong- Moderator
- Posts : 26945
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Location : Twilight zone
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
Nice one GE and yes, the AB's do seem to have an abundance of talent that do seamlessly transfer into the main side. As you say, normally when a side looses some legends there is somewhat of a slump but I cant see the AB's experiencing that as the new players coming in are performing immediately.
One of the best matches I have seen in a long time (barring the SA-AB match at Ellis park) and the quality of that last try was immense.
All the Kiwi's I know, do not feel that this AB side is unbeatable but do feel that any defeat will just spurn them on for the next match. This AB side has incredible belief in their own ability (as seen for the winning try yesterday) and that's why they are the best.
One of the best matches I have seen in a long time (barring the SA-AB match at Ellis park) and the quality of that last try was immense.
All the Kiwi's I know, do not feel that this AB side is unbeatable but do feel that any defeat will just spurn them on for the next match. This AB side has incredible belief in their own ability (as seen for the winning try yesterday) and that's why they are the best.
Nachos Jones- Posts : 2232
Join date : 2013-11-15
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
Just Clive being an rse in a Stephen Jonesesque kinda way. He's like the little kid at the back of the crowd who needs to jump up and down to be noticed......shame really.
tigerleghorn- Posts : 682
Join date : 2011-05-10
Location : Hinckleyshire
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
I'm sorry guys but it seems a bit schmaltzy and patronising to congratulate GE for producing a reasonable post.
Welcome back nevertheless.
Welcome back nevertheless.
tigerleghorn- Posts : 682
Join date : 2011-05-10
Location : Hinckleyshire
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
To the OP I have heard of Ryan Crotty and you may not realise it but it felt just a little tougher a pill to swallow knowing that he has an Irish name first and surname and he is a descendant of one of Irelands fiercest ever warriors Brian Boru.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2013/1125/sport/who-is-ryan-crotty-250643.html
He is probably not even a second generation Irish person but it stung that someone with an Irish name put the nail in the coffin.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2013/1125/sport/who-is-ryan-crotty-250643.html
He is probably not even a second generation Irish person but it stung that someone with an Irish name put the nail in the coffin.
GunsGerms- Posts : 12542
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 44
Location : Ireland
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
I'm not well informed enough on past generations to comment on previous AB teams really, but it's instructive to hear many Kiwis suggesting this team may just be the best yet. Player for player it certainly doesn't look or feel it, but as a unit and a full squad there can't be many better.
Partly I suppose it's how you look at things like this group of AIs. Either you look at the results and games and think the ABs were taken close a number of times, so can't be as good as previous versions that smashed everyone. Or you say, it's been a long grueling season but even when targeted by highly motivated teams playing above themselves, this team still managed to find ways to win.
Partly I suppose it's how you look at things like this group of AIs. Either you look at the results and games and think the ABs were taken close a number of times, so can't be as good as previous versions that smashed everyone. Or you say, it's been a long grueling season but even when targeted by highly motivated teams playing above themselves, this team still managed to find ways to win.
Hood83- Posts : 2751
Join date : 2011-06-12
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
Well bloody well read it then. Crikey, just as well I didn't show or you'd've spent the night apologising for not listening to a word I said no doubt.quinsforever wrote:haven't read your post. Just like to say a big welcome back GE. you were missed at xmas drinks. and we were thinking of you on the ireland nz thread as sexton was lining up his penalty kick. unfortunately he missed, and the rest, as they say, is history.
The sexton miss is down to me. I have To apologise to Ireland fans. I put my magic scarf on the tv just as he lined it up. You can actually see him look up and to the right before he takes the kick as one if the tassels dangled down and distracted him. Just three uses left, I'll save them for Wales next year.
GloriousEmpire- Posts : 4411
Join date : 2013-01-28
Age : 51
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
Quite a short ban for GloriousEmpire this time.
Surprising really.
Surprising really.
Cyril- Posts : 7162
Join date : 2012-11-16
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
How long did you do "Cold Turkey" for during your "rest" GE?
Day 1. Not too bad, collected sign for post going back to previous "holiday"
Day 2. Started to sweat around 1:00am, resisted urge to see what everyone was saying on 606
Day 3. Getting bad, keep imagining I'm seeing posts from TJ and Cyril in everything I type
Day 4. Went for a walk, came back, chatted to my neighbour the Cabinet Minister.
Day 5. Spent the day sorting out Sky Broadband, must have upset them as they slammed the phone down on me
Day 6. Watched the game, oh to be on 606.
Day 7. Just watched the clock, made the bed, got out my special 606 Onesie in readiness
Day 8. Hey babe I'm back!!!!
Day 1. Not too bad, collected sign for post going back to previous "holiday"
Day 2. Started to sweat around 1:00am, resisted urge to see what everyone was saying on 606
Day 3. Getting bad, keep imagining I'm seeing posts from TJ and Cyril in everything I type
Day 4. Went for a walk, came back, chatted to my neighbour the Cabinet Minister.
Day 5. Spent the day sorting out Sky Broadband, must have upset them as they slammed the phone down on me
Day 6. Watched the game, oh to be on 606.
Day 7. Just watched the clock, made the bed, got out my special 606 Onesie in readiness
Day 8. Hey babe I'm back!!!!
tigerleghorn- Posts : 682
Join date : 2011-05-10
Location : Hinckleyshire
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
It's like you've got a fricken CCTV in my forumarium.
GloriousEmpire- Posts : 4411
Join date : 2013-01-28
Age : 51
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
Lol. Nice one GEGloriousEmpire wrote:It's like you've got a fricken CCTV in my forumarium.
tigerleghorn- Posts : 682
Join date : 2011-05-10
Location : Hinckleyshire
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
GunsGerms wrote:To the OP I have heard of Ryan Crotty and you may not realise it but it felt just a little tougher a pill to swallow knowing that he has an Irish name first and surname and he is a descendant of one of Irelands fiercest ever warriors Brian Boru.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2013/1125/sport/who-is-ryan-crotty-250643.html
He is probably not even a second generation Irish person but it stung that someone with an Irish name put the nail in the coffin.
Thats interesting Guns. I'd say we'd have a lot of our players in that position, especially from the South Island. Most Europen settlers would be 6-7 generations old at most so the names wont have changed that much.
From comments and reports here theyre calling this the greatest escape since <add the previous greatest escape here> kind of thing.
Regardless of the timing of the match easily our toughest test of the year. That one will live on in the memory here thats for sure. Good luck with the 6N. No idea how this result will affect their performances there but if they play like that through it theyve gotta be in with a good chance.
Hows Schmidt been received after all this in Ireland?
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
Schmidt doesnt have a lot to prove to Leinster fans obviously. I am from near Multyfarnham in Westmeath where Schmidt first arrived in Ireland and I played for Mullingar RFC one of the first places Schmidt coached. He is a bit of a local hero so Im probably not the best person to ask.
However, what I love about him is his creativity and visionary approach to the game. There are lots of things that Ireland did v NZ that were quite subtle, well thought out, clever and effective. He brings a massive tactical element and keeps opposition guessing making his teams interesting to watch.
I think most people in general have been pretty positive to what Schmidt can bring to the table but recognise its too early to judge. The performance on Sunday wont do his popularity any harm. Ireland has good players, we just need a coach like Schmidt to get the best out of them.
However, what I love about him is his creativity and visionary approach to the game. There are lots of things that Ireland did v NZ that were quite subtle, well thought out, clever and effective. He brings a massive tactical element and keeps opposition guessing making his teams interesting to watch.
I think most people in general have been pretty positive to what Schmidt can bring to the table but recognise its too early to judge. The performance on Sunday wont do his popularity any harm. Ireland has good players, we just need a coach like Schmidt to get the best out of them.
Last edited by GunsGerms on Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:48 am; edited 1 time in total
GunsGerms- Posts : 12542
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 44
Location : Ireland
Re: All Conquering All Blacks Set A New Standard
GunsGerms wrote:Schmidt doesnt have a lot to prove to Leinster fans obviously. I am from near Multyfarnham in Westmeath where Schmidt first arrived in Ireland and I played for Mullingar RFC one of the first places Schmidt coached. He is a bit of a local hero so Im probably not the best person to ask.
However, what I love about him is his creativity and visionary approach to the game. There are lots of things that Ireland did v NZ that were quite subtle, well thought out, clever and effective. He brings a massive tactical element and keeps opposition guessing making his teams interesting to watch.
I think most people in general have been pretty positive to what Schmidt can bring to the table but recognise its too early to judge. The performance on Sunday wont do his popularity any harm. Ireland has good players, we just need a coach like Schmidt to get the best out of him.
I agree with you on this G/germs (and I dont always,) but if any outsider coach, as in non irish is going to progress with ireland, it has to be someone with a real empathy with not only irish rugby but also with the demands from the irish public, when all he can do is show them (the players), teach them the skills neccessary to be more competitive against higher ranked teams and just let their own spirit of endevour take it from there..... Sometimes I think we're all a bit guilty of over thinking it.
aucklandlaurie- Posts : 7561
Join date : 2011-06-27
Age : 68
Location : Auckland
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