India in South Africa 2013

First topic message reminder :

The BCCI have picked the test squad for South Africa well in advance, so the debates can also start well in time.

money on a tie?

Maiden ! All up to Philander now...

Twelve balls to get 16.

we've come so far..
to play a draw??? f##k this!!!

Blocked two ...

Settling for the draw ?

This is why we can't be seen in a similar vein to the Aussies, we've pu.ssied out of a record run chase with three wickets in hand!

South Africa playing for a draw. Ho hum.

Yep . Playing out the over.

Funny. I thought this would be the way it would end , but I didn't expect it to have got this close !

Maiden again and it is going to sort of fizzle out , unless Steyn is going to go nuts in the last over   

forget upset, I'm incensed! Just threw a half eaten apple at my TV...

I thought South Africa would have gone for it. I really did.

They've got this close to the target, three wickets left, at home, India must be knackered in the field - and the no.1 side settle for a draw.

Won't pretend that it isn't disappointing.

Don't be too hard on them Kingraf. With Morkel injured and Tahir a walking wicket it isn't too surprising.

Imagine if they'd lost it and all that hard work by Du Plessis and de Villiers had gone for nothing ?

Still been a great match

The draw is probably the fairest result. Well done both sides.
SA got so close but when Faf got run out it was time to shut up shop.

what a match......it was the Tyson vs Holyfield....heavyweights matching each otehr blow for blow......for a full five days....no one knwoing the outcome until the end...and unlike the great boxing game...this one had a draw as the very fair end result.

India ....what a redemption of faith with an unebleivable perfroamnce in the most foreign of condtion.....their batting stood up like no one expected and 3 of the 5 high quality seamers that India posses were on display.

And South Africa..showed they are deserving world no. 1.......and althouhg as an Indian i wuld have liked us to pip SA over the post....in fairnes they didn't deserve to lose.

not losing the test thouhg gives a slighly bigger moral win to India and positive ICC ranking points

I mean India have taken four "clean" wickets in 140 overs, and we are afraid of them getting three in as many overs? Beyond peed, Going to go eat some left over lasagna and try not throw any cutlery while I'm eating

Ironic that Steyn hits the last ball for a huge six   

OK it was sort of disappointing in the end : but in truth neither team really deserved to lose.

A tie would have been better though...

Well played both sides.

India will be the most disappointed because they should have won this game, and will possibly feel that a big chance has escaped. Terrific resistance from South Africa though.

Careful with that cutlery , kingraf   

Back to bed now...

Me too. shheesh... 2:54am. Nite all!

What a test match!. What a game really!. In the end I am happy India didn't lose!.

I'm so angry, though!! The draw is a fair result, but I don't think that means we shouldnt go for the robbery. A victory here would have gone a long way in terms of the popularity of the game in South Africa - playing for the draw, from such a position doesn't look good from a marketing perspective, and if the crowd showed you anything over these last five days, it's that CSA could do with something special to attract the crowd. Winning would probably have established our place as one of the greats, instead all we know is that we are probably better than the two teams fighting for the Ashes

Hopefully all of Ashanti Sharma's deliveries are analysed retrospectively, and they find eight no balls somewhere.

If England had played out a draw in the same match conditions, KP_fan would probably have had an aneurysm just thinking about what Flower told the batsmen to do. All that last ball six did was add insult to injury

Wonderful rearguard action from SA but I have to agree with KR that the last three overs were poor cricket. 16 off 3 overs doesn't require kamikaze cricket. They could have pushed a few singles and scrambled a couple of twos at least and left themselves with 10 or less off the last over. Playing out two maidens was bizarre.

You have to look at this match in context.

At the end of the forth day India had controlled most of the match, they were odds on to win.

FAF and AaB did brilliantly to get us to a point where we could actually win, but as much as FAF saved the test for us he is also responsible for not winning the match, whether he was tired or not, he shut up shop with about 5 overs to go by leaving all possible balls.

Then after hitting a boundary decides on running a single that was suicide.

Morkel and Tahir was not going to get us over the line, so at the end of the day it didn't matter whether we needed 30 off the last 5 overs or 100, when FAF got out the odds would always be a draw.

Biltong: here's the thing - if we were 169/7 needing 15, I'd absolutely agree with shutting shop. But, how many chances does a team having of setting history? of having a definitive moment which puts you up with the greats? Tahir has four first-class fifties, and a test top score of 30-odd, He isn't as useless as many like to pretend. Kallis got a bad call, And there were two run outs - So India managed to manufacture four wickets in 140 overs of play, now pretending like they were odd-on to take three in three overs, even accounting for tailenders, isn't fait accompli

Kingraf, I agree it would have been awesome to set a new record.

But you need to think about this.

Morkel is injured.

Tahir has had 14 innings with the bat, 4 times did he get ten or more, only 5 times did he last more than 10 balls, 5 times he lasted less than an over.

It is what it is, we looked like we might get there until aF threw his wicket away for a stupid run.

if i was a SA fan i would be thrilled with the result...they started the day knowing it would take a miracle to save the game, and Faf and AB provided them with that. It was fantastic from the saffers, and i thought the booing at the end was awful and completely disrespectful.

Agree CF, it showed a lack of understanding of the game and was disrespectful to say the least.

Granted we are a competitive nation and like to win, but it was uncalled for

Did South Africa coming so close surprise me? Not at all!. Captain Colossal's test side became the best of the recent number 1s under Guru Garry, not without a reason. They run subcontinantal sides pretty close in their own backyard, can't be defeated away even though you have a 1 % chance at home, the batting is class from Smith, Amla, Kallis and AB, and du Plessis is their official crisis man. India's batsmen and bowlers surpassed expectations, but there is a lot of inexperience in there, and the bowling unit is not beyond good really even with Zaheer in there. Ishant Sharma is strictly average in these conditions (otherwise he's downright useless), Ashwin had not much of an impact and young Shami is only into his 3rd test. Smith gave them a decent strt and Alviro Petersen chose this very moment to come back to form, and from that platform, all that needed was a good partnership to get into the game. AB and Faf gave it.
India got wickets just in time to just about hold them back. Kallis after he got off to a rather uncharacteristic quick start, and then AB and Duminy in quick succession when the game seemed gone from the Indian grasp. Philander again took them close and Faf ran himself out to prevent the final push.
I can completely understand kingraf's feelings, I think they are not unjustified. Even a couple of runs each in the 2 maiden overs at the end could have made a difference. Think Morne's injury played a major part in the South African approach.
It was a great escape from India, with just a little bit of help from the South Africans. India played hard cricket and I would have been very disappointed if they lost after all that.
But ones again, what a pity we have only 2 tests. What a pity indeed!.

I'm not sure I'd have booed myself, but the lads who started it (at the members pavilion) have all been drinking non stop for the last five days... They simply weren't there, as Bob Dylan would say.

Im probably one of very few people who genuinely thought the Proteas could win it, and I'm very frustrated at the fact that we didnt go for it. I just think when you have a chance to do this, which would have probably been the feat of the year in all sports for 2013 (unless you think the America Cup is a sports event), you have to go for it. History doesn't come around too often, and I have the feeling this will be a marker when this Proteas' team's greatness is eventually discussed.

Biltong wrote:Agree CF, it showed a lack of understanding of the game and was disrespectful to say the least.

Granted we are a competitive nation and like to win, but it was uncalled for

glad to see you out of the self imposed exile......to follow this electrifying series.

and Kingraf....showed himself to be the Duty281 of SA...with similar results   

The history isnt important right now kingraf! The result was the main thing, and going into today SA had to make sure they were going to Durban still in with a chance of winning the series, they weren't going to throw that away just to have a piece of history!

I don't see how I'm the Doody of S.A. I was eight runs away from getting a call you mocked spot on, with all respect to my buddy Doody, Im not nearly as positive/Hopelessly hopeful.

For me the success stories for India were many:

1) Kohli....gut and temperament masks his technical deficencies....and the "softened-up" controversy during the ODIs spurred him

2) Pujara....is  the next Dravid and VVSL rolled into one...reconfirmed when he gets past a 50...eighty % of the times he gets a 100....and when he gets a hundred....90% of the times he gets a 150...no wonder he is averaging 70 after 18 odd tests


3) Seamers-Trio: Mohd Sami..... showed he ius taking giant leaps with every game.....his bio-mechanically perfect action gives him an
extra yard of pace....often hitting 140+

Ishant is not clever but got good assistance out of pitch redemption of sorts...good 3rd seamer.....and Zaheer was at his best in first inning tried very hard but couldn't get the ball to reverse in second.

India should rest and swap one of these with Yadav in the next game depending on who has not recovered.


4) Vijay came out credible with the bat.....seeing off the new ball...needs to covert the start next time.

5) Rahane's first inning showed why he is considered technically the best bat in the country...and his two direct hits in second innings were game changer.......well nearly

Downside:

6) Ashwin...if with the weight of half a thousand runs nearly on a D5 pitch on  cracked pitch he couldn't make mark...then the observations of shanky come to mind.....he ain't cut out for overseas conditions.
without wasting time I would throw in Jadeja in the next game to swap Ashwin.

7) Dhawan needs to leave outside off and short ones a bit more.....and I do feel he will get a big one next game....as will Rohit with more hard work though  who also has to know his off stump better.

The only criticism I have of the Indians-...they took the win for granted......reading too much into history and situations and critics...they were kinda too pleased with their own efforts and match situation as on D4

kingraf wrote:I don't see how I'm the Doody of S.A. I was eight runs away from getting a call you mocked spot on, with all respect to my buddy Doody, Im not nearly as positive/Hopelessly hopeful.

you were as freak this time as he always his.......and freakishly he gets a high percentage of his freak calls right.....until this time......done in by Flower   

There is no rationale behind predicting a chase of 458 and especially not on a highway pitch but the one like this and the game poised as it was on D4.......just hope and patriotic fervour.

KPF, the biggest positive is that India came out with lot of credit as a team after this test. Not many expected India to last the 5 days against South Africa, not many expected their batting to survive and then flourish the way the did. It really is a creditable moment for Team India, Mahendra Singh Dhoni and the often criticized Duncan Fletcher. As you said, Kohli, Pujara, Shami, Zaheer, Rahane and Vijay emerge with credit, as does Ishant Sharma Rohit Sharma, Shikhar Dhawan and Ravichandran Ashwin failed to put their hands up.......
Ashwin did keep the runs down in the 2nd innings but he needed to chip in with a few strikes if India were to win it. There was not much turn on offer, but there was bounce, that too not very consistent and Ashwin should have taken advantage.
Think if at all they are to change things around, they'e to bring in Jadeja. He can offer greater control than Ashwin does, and he's the best to take advantage of the natural variations on the pitch. Unlike Ojha, Jadeja can bat and field as well.

That's the difference, there was plenty of rationale.
- This is nearly the same team that changed 414/4.
- If you hadn't seen that the wicket wasn't so bad, then I don't know
- Faf's heroics in Adelaide
- Smith is the greatest fourth innings player of them all
- The Wanderers does sometimes die down (this I knew because I've had a season ticket since 2000, not because I was hopeful)
India only had three seamers, and they needed to get through a lot of work
- Ashwin was wicketless first innings
- Sharma still isn't that good.
- Zak may be good, but he was never going to run through our team
- Shami I admit did worry me.
- We've lost once in our last nineteen Tests, and thats seen us through tougher occasions than this Test.
- Once you see your team win a test they were 190-odd runs behind in, and draw a test from 45/4, with a debutant batting for an eternity, it's actually difficult to rationally believe they will just lose.

Kingraf comes across to me as a very rational poster to me, KPF, He does have his theories about Pietersen and he loves James Anderson, but let me tell you, he wasn't really alone in thinking that a South African win was a not insignificant possibility at the end of day 4. Duty is in a league of his own, nobody can come close to him!.

I was not at all ruling out the possibility of a South African win, and in mind the 2 batsmen who could achieve a favorable result for them ones Smith was out were AB de Villiers and Faf du Plessis. AB is a personal favorite, he plays so well against India always, and he's an all condition, all situation batsman. And if thinks went not as planned , I was pretty sure Faf would choose to find form at that very moment. It often happens with India, look at what Petersen did, and Faf is kind of conditioned to do just that.

I'll have you know - Quite a few people share my thoughts on Pietersen, they're not groundbreaking. JA is another story, I genuinely think I'll cry when he retires, I love criticizing his club-level bowling that much... Hence even after the demolition job he experienced in Perth I still didn't call for him to be dropped

kingraf wrote:I'll have you know - Quite a few people share my thoughts on Pietersen, they're not groundbreaking. JA is another story, I genuinely think I'll cry when he retires, I love criticizing his club-level bowling that much... Hence even after the demolition job he experienced in Perth I still didn't call for him to be dropped

Though you seem to (deliberately) overstretch the point, I feel your theories on Pietersen and Anderson do have half a point or 1 in there. And they are always presented very nicely I must say.

kingraf wrote:

Im probably one of very few people who genuinely thought the Proteas could win it, and I'm very frustrated at the fact that we didnt go for it.

As I said earlier I backed you to win it at the start of the 4th innings, would've won a nice sum   

what were the odds Olly? Haven't bet on anything in a while.

kingraf wrote:what were the odds Olly? Haven't bet on anything in a while.

You were 10/1 to win, 3/1 for the draw. I threw a fiver on each, I knew you weren't gonna lose that test for many of the reasons you posted above.

Still made some money, but would've been nice to win the bigger amount

Kyle Abbot in as cover for Morne Morkel for the next test. Smith said Morne is in with only a 20 % chance to play the game.

msp83 wrote:Kingraf comes across to me as a very rational poster to me, KPF, He does have his theories about Pietersen and he loves James Anderson, but let me tell you, he wasn't really alone in thinking that a South African win was a not insignificant possibility at the end of day 4. Duty is in a league of his own, nobody can come close to him!.

yes he is a good poster....everyone here is good and bring in their knowledgeable perspectives and share a passion for cricket.
Even" The touchy Woman"   ...he makes some good and rather unbiased points...but you have to sift through a page of write-up to to find 5 relevant sentences

kingraf wrote:This is why we can't be seen in a similar vein to the Aussies, we've pu.ssied out of a record run chase with three wickets in hand!

I suppose a strong Australian captain with players capable of smashing those last 16 runs with 3 overs to go would have gone for it 100% of the time. None of this go back into your shell stuff with 3 wickets in hand still. Sure, they (an Oz side in the same situation) may have failed dismally, fallen short, or snuck over the line but that's the difference in our nation's mentality. We are far from conservative when it comes to cricket and the record books show that it pays off most of the time.

yeah - worth noting Smith was the captain who tried to succeed playing "Brave cricket", which as we all know, failed - with the glorious exception of the 438 game. Essentially, I think all the past failures in ODI's closing out started playing on our minds, and unlike in ODI's, test cricket does give you the option of giving in, without losing, and we took it.

What I do find interesting, is that both teams had differing views on who win the game "psychologically". Kohli came out and said India were always looking for the win (despite having put EVERY single player on the boundary in the penultimate over). No one deserves to lose a Test like this, but simultaneously, a test like this deserves a result.

Yes, after that brilliant day of batting (up until the last 3 overs) yesterday - there should have been a result one way or another. It was a psychological win for India, imo. They maintain their unbeaten record at Wanderers v SA... and SA are yet to beat them there.

A 'real' No. 1 side would have made sure they got over the line having got so close and would have been celebrating a great victory today.

I congratulate all my friends here, for what a fantastic match we have witnessed. SA no doubt played like a champion team. India though ranking says, they are second best side but they landed here with totally incomplete practice, but the character they have shown here is really amazing. I feel Pujara Kohli are the pillars of future Indian team. Hats off to them.

Linebreaker wrote:

kingraf wrote:This is why we can't be seen in a similar vein to the Aussies, we've pu.ssied out of a record run chase with three wickets in hand!

I suppose a strong Australian captain with players capable of smashing those last 16 runs with 3 overs to go would have gone for it 100% of the time. None of this go back into your shell stuff with 3 wickets in hand still. Sure, they (an Oz side in the same situation) may have failed dismally, fallen short, or snuck over the line but that's the difference in our nation's mentality. We are far from conservative when it comes to cricket and the record books show that it pays off most of the time.

Great mythmakers , you Aussies   

Yet in fact , in 1974/75 , a strong Australian team , led by the combative Ian Chappell , was faced with exactly the same situation against England at Melbourne. Seven down , sixteen to win , three overs left.
(having scored at a rapid rate for the preceding couple of overs against a new ball)

They then - very oddly - shut up shop...two from the next over from Greig before the penultimate over from Underwood was played as a maiden , and although Lillee tried to hit a couple of balls in the last over , being caught from the third last ball , they finished eight runs short , with two wickets still in hand.

I was there ; and was puzzled at the tactics at the time. Have since concluded that even aggressive captains and batsmen often retreat into safety first when the choice of death or glory beckons. So I am not too critical this time either. Easy game from an armchair , and we don't get kicked to death in the press if we go down in a dramatic charge for victory...

And yes on another famous occasion an Australian team under Richie Benaud did press on for a win , and ended in a terrific tie with Worrells West Indians . Which I guess goes to show that you can't make generalizations about how teams will play based on nationality ... the facts sometimes get in the way ...

I think some are looking at this from the perspective of the brave fearless young bull and others from the perspective of the old wise bull.

The fearless bull would go for the win in the match regardless of the situation, the wise old bull realises this is only a two test series,

Sometimes the risk is worth it, but in a two test series I prefer the wise old bull method.