India in South Africa 2013

First topic message reminder :

The BCCI have picked the test squad for South Africa well in advance, so the debates can also start well in time.

alfie wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:

kingraf wrote:This is why we can't be seen in a similar vein to the Aussies, we've pu.ssied out of a record run chase with three wickets in hand!

I suppose a strong Australian captain with players capable of smashing those last 16 runs with 3 overs to go would have gone for it 100% of the time. None of this go back into your shell stuff with 3 wickets in hand still. Sure, they (an Oz side in the same situation) may have failed dismally, fallen short, or snuck over the line but that's the difference in our nation's mentality. We are far from conservative when it comes to cricket and the record books show that it pays off most of the time.

Great mythmakers , you Aussies   

Yet in fact , in 1974/75 , a strong Australian team , led by the combative Ian Chappell , was faced with exactly the same situation against England at Melbourne.  Seven down , sixteen to win , three overs left.
(having scored at a rapid rate for the preceding couple of overs against a new ball)

They then - very oddly - shut up shop...two from the next over from Greig  before the penultimate over from Underwood was played as a maiden , and although Lillee tried to hit a couple of balls in the last over , being caught from the third last ball , they finished eight runs short , with two wickets still in hand. 

I was there ; and was puzzled at the tactics at the time.  Have since concluded that even aggressive captains and batsmen often retreat into safety first when the choice of death or glory beckons.  So I am not too critical this time either.  Easy game from an armchair , and we don't get kicked to death in the press if we go down in a dramatic charge for victory...

And yes on another famous occasion an Australian team under Richie Benaud did press on for a win , and ended in a terrific tie with Worrells West Indians .  Which I guess goes to show that you can't make generalizations about how teams will play based on nationality ... the facts sometimes get in the way ...

What about the 4th Test 1948 then, alfie?
England declared late on the 4th day setting Australia over 400 to win on the final day (I think they had 111 overs or something to do it in).

I don't think any other captain would have gone for the win. You remember the result don't you? Eternal glory.   

I dunno. I thought Vernon had it in him to score an extra boundary or two but he was obviously under instructions. The 6 off the last ball from Steyn to reduce it down to 8 runs in the end made the idea of achieving an historic win even more tantalising.

Biltong - the fearless young bull gets a chance at the prize - a paddock full of heifers. Sure, if he fails then it's the abattoir. I do see your point but give me the fearless bull approach in yesterday's scenario.  

Linebreaker wrote:

alfie wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:

kingraf wrote:This is why we can't be seen in a similar vein to the Aussies, we've pu.ssied out of a record run chase with three wickets in hand!

I suppose a strong Australian captain with players capable of smashing those last 16 runs with 3 overs to go would have gone for it 100% of the time. None of this go back into your shell stuff with 3 wickets in hand still. Sure, they (an Oz side in the same situation) may have failed dismally, fallen short, or snuck over the line but that's the difference in our nation's mentality. We are far from conservative when it comes to cricket and the record books show that it pays off most of the time.

Great mythmakers , you Aussies   

Yet in fact , in 1974/75 , a strong Australian team , led by the combative Ian Chappell , was faced with exactly the same situation against England at Melbourne.  Seven down , sixteen to win , three overs left.
(having scored at a rapid rate for the preceding couple of overs against a new ball)

They then - very oddly - shut up shop...two from the next over from Greig  before the penultimate over from Underwood was played as a maiden , and although Lillee tried to hit a couple of balls in the last over , being caught from the third last ball , they finished eight runs short , with two wickets still in hand. 

I was there ; and was puzzled at the tactics at the time.  Have since concluded that even aggressive captains and batsmen often retreat into safety first when the choice of death or glory beckons.  So I am not too critical this time either.  Easy game from an armchair , and we don't get kicked to death in the press if we go down in a dramatic charge for victory...

And yes on another famous occasion an Australian team under Richie Benaud did press on for a win , and ended in a terrific tie with Worrells West Indians .  Which I guess goes to show that you can't make generalizations about how teams will play based on nationality ... the facts sometimes get in the way ...

What about the 4th Test 1948 then, alfie?
England declared late on the 4th day setting Australia over 400 to win on the final day (I think they had 111 overs or something to do it in).

I don't think any other captain would have gone for the win. You remember the result don't you? Eternal glory.   

I dunno. I thought Vernon had it in him to score an extra boundary or two but he was obviously under instructions. The 6 off the last ball from Steyn to reduce it down to 8 runs in the end made the idea of achieving an historic win even more tantalising.

Biltong - the fearless young bull gets a chance at the prize - a paddock full of heifers. Sure, if he fails then it's the abattoir. I do see your point but give me the fearless bull approach in yesterday's scenario.  

The Aussies did have Bradman & Harvey at the crease and 7 wickets to spare in '48 though, SA had Steyn & Philander in and Morkel & Tahir as insurance.

I know Galted.
SA had 6 wickets in hand going into the last day... but I suppose Bradman was worth at least 2 batsmen... so really they had '8'.

Just bumping up the "myth", mate.  

I see Kohli has a lot to say after the match now.

According to him India was bowling for the win. I say BS, they bowled wide of off stump, short of a length and put their fielders on the boundary.

How is that bowling to take wickets?

We should have gone for the win from there, I don't think not doing so harms our goal of becoming a "great" side, but a successful chase certainly would have gone a long way. We've been involved in some truly magnificent Tests in recent history, and come out on the right side much more often than not, so I think our credentials have enough credit. Looking forward to Kingsmead, Makhaya Ntini was very critical of the current Kingsmead pitch, because it's gotten very flat in recent years. I'm quite inclined to agree, Combined with the weather which the people from Durban have to put up with (even if the marketing people there would have believe there are only two seasons in Durban, "summer and summer") and I think the series ends in a dull 0-0 draw. I'm looking very forward to the Australia series at the moment, even when India set us 458, I struggled to see them taking ten wickets, as their bowling really isn't the second coming of anything, I was just curious to see if we could get the draw, or the win. The Australia series is going to be a lot of fun, as they'll be brimming post-Ashes, and our batting line-up must be feeling nigh on invincible right now (with good reason). it

One factor that seems to have been overlooked by many is Morkel's injury. Remember these days you are not allowed to have a runner, and Morkel was badly injured and a slight tweak would have worsened it badly. If South Africa had lost the last 3 wickets in pushing for the win, the C word would have been back with full force and everyone would have gone after them and remind that Morkel was injured and Tahir is not much of a bat and the lower order completely and utterly wasted a magnificent effort from AB and Faf.
Don't read too much into what Kohli and Smith said, just an attempt to score a psychological point or 2 before the next game.

Linebreaker wrote:I know Galted.
SA had 6 wickets in hand going into the last day... but I suppose Bradman was worth at least 2 batsmen... so really they had '8'.

Just bumping up the "myth", mate.  

Aha. So you admit it is a myth , lb   

Just to be extra picky , I must point out that your Bradman example ( glorious though it undoubtedly was - I don't actually remember it , as such , having been a little too young at the time , but I believe the reports I have read ) has very little in common with the match(es) we were discussing...

Had , say , Kallis and de Villiers still been batting at the end , I have no doubt they would have easily scored the runs in those last three overs - in fact they probably wouldn't have let it come down to the last three overs.

I wonder how Bradman would have instructed Loxton and Saggers if it had been left to them to make sixteen from three at the end , with just Johnston and Toshack left in the shed ? ( Actually I like to think he would have said go for it lads , but we cannot know for certain , can we ?)

So at the moment I must respectfully suggest that your assertion that any Australian team would automatically fix bayonets and charge where those South African chokers fear to go remains unproven at best ...almost mythical   

Back to your books and find me another example   

After an absolute classic of a test match, a match for the ages, South Africa and India will be resuming the battle tomorrow as the 2nd and unfortunately final test gets underway.
The game will be played at Durban, where the South Africans do not have a great record in recent times. Durban also has a solid Indian population, and though they were ones bowled out for 66 there, the Indians won their last test played at the ground in 2011. Harbhajan Singh was a significant factor in that win, and spin is expected to play a greater part in the game unlike the case in the first test.
This is going to be the final test for Jacques Kallis, and that should be additional incentive for the South Africans to come out with all guns blazing.
Cricinfo reports that Morne Morkel is likely to play though Kyle Abbot was called up as cover. Robin Peterson might come in for Imran Tahir.
India might ponder a change in the spin department as the Indian skipper was openingly critical of Ravichandran Ashwin's performance. If in cse of the unlikely event of Ashwin being dropped , Ravindra Jadeja might get an opportunity. The seamers did a pretty good job in the first test as did the batsmen other than Rohit Sharma and Shikhar Dhawan, but if they are all fit enough, then can't expect too many changes in those departments. If any of the seamers are still feeling serious aftereffects of the last test, then Umesh Yadav or Bhuvneshwar Kumar can step in.

India's conundrum is around Ashwin

1)can they drop Ashwin ?...then Jadeja comes in....strengthen batting and cannot bowl worse than Ashwin

2)can they play both Jadeja and ashwin?......means having eitehr 2 seamers.....naah.....not in SA...OR dropping the 6th batsman...naah...in last few tests..the specialist 6th batsman has saved India's backside

3) Outside chance one of the seamers is not fully fit and rotated.

option-1 is my pick

KP_fan wrote:India's conundrum is around Ashwin

1)can they drop Ashwin ?...then Jadeja comes in....strengthen batting and cannot bowl worse than Ashwin

2)can they play both Jadeja and ashwin?......means having eitehr 2 seamers.....naah.....not in SA...OR dropping the 6th batsman...naah...in last few tests..the specialist 6th batsman has saved India's backside

3) Outside chance one of the seamers is not fully fit and rotated.

option-1 is my pick

Yeah, option one....... But I feel Ashwin will get another chance. But if he doesn't perform, think Jadeja will be playing the New Zealand tests.

alfie wrote:... and charge where those South African chokers fear to go...    

There, you've said it.
May I refer you to the Lighthorse cavalry in Bethsheeba, Your Honour.

msp83 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:India's conundrum is around Ashwin

1)can they drop Ashwin ?...then Jadeja comes in....strengthen batting and cannot bowl worse than Ashwin

2)can they play both Jadeja and ashwin?......means having eitehr 2 seamers.....naah.....not in SA...OR dropping the 6th batsman...naah...in last few tests..the specialist 6th batsman has saved India's backside

3) Outside chance one of the seamers is not fully fit and rotated.

option-1 is my pick

Yeah, option one....... But I feel Ashwin will get another chance. But if he doesn't perform, think Jadeja will be playing the New Zealand tests.

well Dhoni picks option-1.....what a prompt proactive fix

Jadeja is in for Ashwin, and Peterson in for Tahir. Dhoni says India have a lot of overseas Tests lined up, and if they are to play only one spinner, they will have to take a call on who to play depending on conditions. So Ashwin's place as the lead spinner in overseas Tests is no longer guaranteed. That last day at Wanderers has gone against him

india win the toss and bat first and they made a statement in Durban....there's no fear of facing fast bowling upfront

India won the toss and will be batting first.
They've gone for Option A, dropped Ashwin and brought Jadeja in. South Africa have dropped Imran Tahir and brought in Robin Peterson.

well I hope Morkel doesn't break down.....surprising recovery

No great shocks the . I don't see how they could have stuck by a spin bowler the captain lost faith in to the point that he stopped using him on day 5 of a test and returned figures so woeful.
See how many more write ups can get Peterson petersen and petersien mixed up.

India 24 without loss,, Dhawan on 18, Vijay on 6. Dhawan has taken on a couple of short ones from Steyn despite him getting out doing that in the first test. Philander has produced a couple of beauties that just missed the edge.

Morne Morkel on after a 3 over spell from Philander.

Morkel is troubling Dhawan here, he got into a bit of a tangle with a short one first when he tried a pull shot, and the next one smashed into his pad and then there was another real quick short one from Morne.
Importantly for India and Dhawan, he survived.

Steyn's now getting to the act, Vijay has just taken a painful blow on the elbow. And a huge LBW shout right after that.
But again, the Indian opener survives, India 33 without loss.

i have been saying that Dhawan will have atleast one good day in the 4 innings possible.....he has to see off the new ball...almost done in half an hour more

Dhawan kind of gave it away after drinks when edged a catch to slip to get out for 29. He managed to keep out better balls, could have lived without a shot at that one so soon after drinks. Pujara joined Vijay, and they've taken the score to 50-1.
Jacques Kallis bowling his first over in his last test.

Philander getting Pujara's edge but the ball didn't go up in the air and he then beat Pujara's inside edge as well. Pujara yet to settle........

Good toss to win this, day two has been the worst day for batting here at Kingsmead for a while now.

I think winning this toss Dhoni has given India a great opportunity to win this match, day four and five there will be a lot of spin and bounce if what Pollock had to say in the pitch report is anything to go on.

India go to lunch at 76-1. Would call it India's session though they haven't got away from South Africa by any means. Murali Vijay has played well, left well, took a couple of blows from Morkel but kept his cool and played out the session. Dhawan too looked largely comfortable during his stay and played some good shots, but he gave it away after getting a nice start. Pujara had a couple of difficult moments against Philander but has played well otherwise.
Steyn had a bit of an indifferent start but was looking the part towards the end of his spell, Philander kept asking questions to the batsmen, and Morkel ones again, was the pick of the SA bowlers for me. Robin Peterson started with a full-toss gave away a few boundaries and couldn't quite settle, though he very nearly had a caught and bowled opportunity against Vijay in the last over but the ball fell just short. Kallis couldn't make much of an impact in his first spell.
The Indian batsmen will have to start all over in the new session, should learn from Dhawan's fall and stay fully focused after the break. South Africa need an early wicket in the session to rest control from India.

two quick observations...
so far...Dhawan is no sehwag
and Ashwin defnitely is a shade short of Bhajji

at their best Sehwag was blasting the pace attacks in SA
and Bhajji getting a lot more out of pitches.

Dhwan has the potential....he has to sort out his foot work and leaving outside the off-stump......when intensely focussed he is OK....when he drops his guard.......he is immediately fishing outside off and not moving his feet

after this series and if Bhajji is doing well...he might come in the reckoning.

Vijay.....underrated, and often maligned and nout counted has looked the more superior of the 2 opners in terms of technique and ability to handle bounce

KPF, Harbhajan has been injured and hasn't been playing Ranji Trophy for the last 4 rounds or so.
The Sehwag era is pretty much over, it was fabulous while it lasted, and regardless of his later struggles, its very difficult to find another like him. Let Dhawan be Dhawan. This has been his first foreign assignment, think we have to give him more time to get settled into the test side.

A slow ball almost doing Pujara in, good one from Philander, the ball just out of Morkel's reach.

Smith would want to have a look at that over rate, South Africa managed only 26 before lunch, and in 11 minutes after lunch, they bowled only 2 more.

Vijay has to make it count now...go on and get a hundred,......a big one today.
I am certain Jadeja will get more thn ashwin was able to get..and with that might turn into India's No.1 spinner

The 50 partnership up between Vijay and Pujara.
India 94-1.

Vijay brings up India's hundred with a boundary straight down the ground.

A few too many boundaries after lunch for Smith's comfort. In fact, the 5 overs in the session have produced 32 runs.

SA are pitching up trying to get some reverse and Indian batsmen cashing in because the ball has not moved.....although we are seeing shades of reverse in steyn's last over

Well deserved half-century for Murali Vijay. Worked hard, left well, and played some beautiful shots.

Now Morkel's back on, he has been South Africa's best bowler of the day so far.
India 121-1.

Vijay has played well in all 3 innings...he's gotta make it count today.....get a hundred and make it count big

Kallis trying hard here, a good over from him, ouple of good Yorkers, couple of good short balls, but Vijay and Pujara survives.
India 132-1.

Back to back boundaries for Vijay of Philander, and the hundred partnership up as well.
India 145-1.

India well posed here. Will have to leave them to it ...need some sleep.

Pujara get's a 50.

He is the most dangerous 50-getter in test cricket today....he converts 80% of this 50s in to 100s.
and convets 90% of his hundreds into 150s or 200s

India go to tea at 163-1. Vijay on 76, Pujara on 55. Only 53 overs bowled so far. After India started the session like a runaway train, the South African bowlers managed to pull the run rate back, but Vijay and Pujara haven't brought any additional pressure on themselves because of that and denied the South Africans the entire session.

The light seems to be developing into an issue. The umpires have had a couple of chat but the play will go on for now.

Dale Steyn is now on a short ball attack on Cheteshwar Pujara from a round the wicket angle. Pujara hasn't looked entirely comfortable.
India 180-1.

Bad light stops play...is that it or is it likely to improve

Well, the match has gone as predicted. Flat pitch, bad weather. Draw written all over it. At least 100 overs will be lost to weather in Durban, as a general rule.

kingraf wrote:Well, the match has gone as predicted. Flat pitch, bad weather. Draw written all over it. At least 100 overs will be lost to weather in Durban, as a general rule.

India won't mind...coming back undefeated....from the land of pace and bounce and against no.1 team...
reputation enhanced
announcing the arrival of another star studded batting line-up to the world
an unbelievably zap quick production line of stars in batting

and a seam bowling attack that is healthy. Only if Rohit were to score some runs......the tour would be near perfect.

And they shouldn't. South Africa is a bit of a burial ground for visiting teams, and their batsmen have done a fantastic job, especially Pujara, who exceeded even my high hopes for me. I'm not sure the bowlers have done much to deserve leaving with their heads held high, yet. They until AB's dismissal at the Wanderers, they'd managed to concede 400 runs for four wickets, fourth innings on a cracked pitch. Im still not sold on India's bowling attack, with the possible exception of Shami (I like Zak, but at 35, he's a stop-gap now)

Bad light has taken out most of the final session. Don't think South Africa would mind that too much, the way the game went till that point. Stats suggest 2nd day is the most difficult to bat at Durban. If South African bowlers could find some early help from the pitch and cut down India's dominance and bowl them out around 300-320, they could be back in it.