Will The WRU Do Anything Are They Actually Bothered

by bedfordwelsh Wed 27 Nov 2013, 6:55 pm

So Evans is the next name to go and again good luck to him and who can blame him.

As the title says will the clowns at the WRU do anything do they actually care.

My thoughts are that they don't care about the Regiona one iota, yes they will tell players to get release clauses etc but as long as the stadium is full with corporate and hospitality money then Lewis and Dickering will be happy.

by HammerofThunor Wed 27 Nov 2013, 7:06 pm

Well if the Regions sign up to the PA they'll get an extra £1M. Not sure what the strings are..

by maestegmafia Wed 27 Nov 2013, 7:08 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:So Evans is the next name to go and again good luck to him and who can blame him.

As the title says will the clowns at the WRU do anything do they actually care.

My thoughts are that they don't care about the Regiona one iota, yes they will tell players to get release clauses etc but as long as the stadium is full with corporate and hospitality money then Lewis and Dickering will be happy.

The WRU firmly stated that they can not afford to compete with highly privately financed French and English clubs.

They have made plenty of offers to the regions, but the regions don't have any interest in turning a profit with regional rugby without WRU assistance, while the WRU don't see it as their duty to refund business losses by the regions.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 27 Nov 2013, 7:09 pm

Would that stop the player drain though? With the amount of money the French clubs are throwing about I can't see what would stop it.

by geoff999rugby Wed 27 Nov 2013, 7:13 pm

The Welsh regions have to be careful they could easily be committing suicide.

The French seem to be distancing themselves from the English (only 4 teams reportedly against their Union now and that is before they meet next week) - the opposition to the ERC is collapsing.

If they split and if Roger Lewis stand firm they will only have a pumped up LV Cup to play in - nowhere near enough.

by **Notch** Wed 27 Nov 2013, 7:30 pm

Isn't it true that RRW actually rejected an offer of the WRU for central contracting of some players?

by doctornickolas Wed 27 Nov 2013, 7:34 pm

Notch wrote:Isn't it true that RRW actually rejected an offer of the WRU for central contracting of some players?

Yes they did. The regions are happy to take WRU money but don't want the WRu to have any say in the running of the regions.

by HammerofThunor Wed 27 Nov 2013, 7:36 pm

The offer was to central contract the players and they remove the £6M they get a year from the WRU. So they would only get TV and sponsorship money for Pro12 and ERC. How much do the provinces get from the IRFU, not including central contracts? Is it about £9M a year? Most sensibly thing to compare the funding to as both have new stadia, four teams, etc. although the WRU do play the extra AI so should give a little more really.

by **Notch** Wed 27 Nov 2013, 7:40 pm

Not sure tbh. I do know that not having to pay the salaries of the likes of Bowe etc. is a great boon to the provinces. Of course, we still can't compete with the massive amounts of money on offer elsewhere. This summer is a key year for the IRFU with Donnacha Ryan, Conor Murray, Sean O'Brien etc. out of contract.

doc, RRW is a pretty small fish in a big pond. Its not altogether clear they can afford to continue to spurn WRU help no matter how many strings are attacjed.

by HammerofThunor Wed 27 Nov 2013, 8:03 pm

Just looked at 2013 Annual Report for IRFU and the Treasurer's report at the beginning said it's over €22M (I'm guessing this means less than €23M). So we're talking about £18.5M a year, or £4.6M each (all 4 are equally funded now aren't they?). And there are central contracts.

So the WRU offered central contracts and half as much funding as the IRFU gives the Provinces...it seems. AND the IRFU only play 3 AI. The Regions are underfunded, at least when compared with the Provinces. The Scots also had their salary budget increased to £4.2M a couple of years ago, and their attendances and general interest in club rugby (and therefore sponsorship) is much lower. And the WRU get the largest chunk of the TV for the Pro12.

by Casartelli Wed 27 Nov 2013, 8:03 pm

doctornickolas wrote:
Notch wrote:Isn't it true that RRW actually rejected an offer of the WRU for central contracting of some players?
Yes they did. The regions are happy to take WRU money but don't want the WRu to have any say in the running of the regions.

We don't exactly have, what you might call, a 'robust business model' for the game here in Wales.

by geoff999rugby Wed 27 Nov 2013, 8:26 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:The offer was to central contract the players and they remove the £6M they get a year from the WRU. So they would only get TV and sponsorship money for Pro12 and ERC. How much do the provinces get from the IRFU, not including central contracts? Is it about £9M a year? Most sensibly thing to compare the funding to as both have new stadia, four teams, etc. although the WRU do play the extra AI so should give a little more really.

From what I have been told that is about right for Munster inclusive of Central Contract, Ulster less, Leinster a lot more and Connaught a lot less.
The difference between the three senior provinces is down to the different number of Central Contract.
At Ulster not sure but it may well only be Best and Bowe now.
They are cutting back big time on Central Contracts

by HammerofThunor Wed 27 Nov 2013, 8:32 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:The offer was to central contract the players and they remove the £6M they get a year from the WRU. So they would only get TV and sponsorship money for Pro12 and ERC. How much do the provinces get from the IRFU, not including central contracts? Is it about £9M a year? Most sensibly thing to compare the funding to as both have new stadia, four teams, etc. although the WRU do play the extra AI so should give a little more really.
From what I have been told that is about right for Munster inclusive of Central Contract, Ulster less, Leinster a lot more and Connaught a lot less.
The difference between the three senior provinces is down to the different number of Central Contract.
At Ulster not sure but it may well only be Best and Bowe now.
They are cutting back big time on Central Contracts

Hold on a second are you saying £9M for Munster alone!? Including the central contracts means you're including the international part as well so it doesn't quite fit.

by Scrumdown Wed 27 Nov 2013, 9:23 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Just looked at 2013 Annual Report for IRFU and the Treasurer's report at the beginning said it's over €22M (I'm guessing this means less than €23M). So we're talking about £18.5M a year, or £4.6M each (all 4 are equally funded now aren't they?). And there are central contracts.

So the WRU offered central contracts and half as much funding as the IRFU gives the Provinces...it seems. AND the IRFU only play 3 AI. The Regions are underfunded, at least when compared with the Provinces. The Scots also had their salary budget increased to £4.2M a couple of years ago, and their attendances and general interest in club rugby (and therefore sponsorship) is much lower. And the WRU get the largest chunk of the TV for the Pro12.

But the IRFU own and control 100% of their provinces. The WRU owns 50% of the dragons and 0% of the other 3 regions. It has control of none of the regions.

The IRFU are effectively investing in their own businesses.

The WRU are investing in someone elses business and they have very little say in how that money is spent except for what has been agreed as part of the Participation Agreement which the Regions are currently refusing to sign.

The set up in Wales is totally different to Ireland.

by **Notch** Wed 27 Nov 2013, 10:31 pm

Scrumdown wrote:

The set up in Wales is totally different to Ireland.

Yes, and thank God it's so! Small nations like Ireland, Scotland and Wales simply can't afford to have conflict between the "club" sides and the national team. To stand a chance, they have to work symbiotically. The IRFU system may be inflexible at times but at least it gives the provinces the best possible chance of holding onto key players and the national side access to whatever resources it needs- hasn't compromised our performances in CL/ERC competitions. It's not without its own flaws- our academies could be doing better in providing tight five talent and sometimes the IRFU overriding decisions made at provincial level is inefficient and disruptive.

Even then it might not be enough to keep all our best players but we're doing a damn sight better so far... anxious wait over the next few months to see whether the floodgates buckle or break. Donnacha Ryan to Perpignan is one possible move.

by Scratch Wed 27 Nov 2013, 10:34 pm

The market is no different in rugby than anywhere else, everyone expects the WRU to stop this but how, the players sign the deals and they are justified in following the wedge. the only solution is central contracts where the national players are directly employed by the WRU but even then why shouldn't players play abroad where the stands are full and the lifestyle a tad more cosmopolitan - i bet the Wags have an input

by geoff999rugby Wed 27 Nov 2013, 10:51 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:The offer was to central contract the players and they remove the £6M they get a year from the WRU. So they would only get TV and sponsorship money for Pro12 and ERC. How much do the provinces get from the IRFU, not including central contracts? Is it about £9M a year? Most sensibly thing to compare the funding to as both have new stadia, four teams, etc. although the WRU do play the extra AI so should give a little more really.
From what I have been told that is about right for Munster inclusive of Central Contract, Ulster less, Leinster a lot more and Connaught a lot less.
The difference between the three senior provinces is down to the different number of Central Contract.
At Ulster not sure but it may well only be Best and Bowe now.
They are cutting back big time on Central Contracts
Hold on a second are you saying £9M for Munster alone!? Including the central contracts means you're including the international part as well so it doesn't quite fit.

Sorry did not read your post properly.
The £18.5m would roughly be £5 million for the top 3 provinces and £3.5 million for Connaught.
You can add to that central contract - Ulster only have 2 for certain

by HammerofThunor Wed 27 Nov 2013, 11:15 pm

Cool. I was going to say, you're talking Toulon levels there Smile

by HammerofThunor Wed 27 Nov 2013, 11:22 pm

Scrumdown wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Just looked at 2013 Annual Report for IRFU and the Treasurer's report at the beginning said it's over €22M (I'm guessing this means less than €23M). So we're talking about £18.5M a year, or £4.6M each (all 4 are equally funded now aren't they?). And there are central contracts.

So the WRU offered central contracts and half as much funding as the IRFU gives the Provinces...it seems. AND the IRFU only play 3 AI. The Regions are underfunded, at least when compared with the Provinces. The Scots also had their salary budget increased to £4.2M a couple of years ago, and their attendances and general interest in club rugby (and therefore sponsorship) is much lower. And the WRU get the largest chunk of the TV for the Pro12.
But the IRFU own and control 100% of their provinces. The WRU owns 50% of the dragons and 0% of the other 3 regions. It has control of none of the regions.

The IRFU are effectively investing in their own businesses.

The WRU are investing in someone elses business and they have very little say in how that money is spent except for what has been agreed as part of the Participation Agreement which the Regions are currently refusing to sign.

The set up in Wales is totally different to Ireland.

True. But the Provinces are run semi independently (by the Provincial branches of the IRFU) under the framework of the IRFU (please correct if wrong). Why couldn't the WRU invest the money under similar conditions? All NWQ players have to be approved by the WRU. Stricter limits of NWQ players. Set release times, etc, etc. I do wonder where the extra £9M+ goes.

by Welsh Magician Thu 28 Nov 2013, 7:12 am

The regions believe that they have effectively been financing the top tier of Welsh rugby for the past 10 years (running up big debts while the WRU made all the money from it). The regions want better funding and more focus to be put on the professional game in Wales as it is what supports the national team. Unfortunately this has been met with contempt from WRU who seem to want to keep the status quo (and why wouldn't they, been a great moneymaker for them). The regions would be funded on 2007 levels all the way in 2018 if it were solely up to the union. Sign up and die slowly or cease to exist is the threat issued to our professional game in Wales. Sad

by geoff999rugby Thu 28 Nov 2013, 10:09 am

HammerofThunor wrote:
Scrumdown wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Just looked at 2013 Annual Report for IRFU and the Treasurer's report at the beginning said it's over €22M (I'm guessing this means less than €23M). So we're talking about £18.5M a year, or £4.6M each (all 4 are equally funded now aren't they?). And there are central contracts.

So the WRU offered central contracts and half as much funding as the IRFU gives the Provinces...it seems. AND the IRFU only play 3 AI. The Regions are underfunded, at least when compared with the Provinces. The Scots also had their salary budget increased to £4.2M a couple of years ago, and their attendances and general interest in club rugby (and therefore sponsorship) is much lower. And the WRU get the largest chunk of the TV for the Pro12.
But the IRFU own and control 100% of their provinces. The WRU owns 50% of the dragons and 0% of the other 3 regions. It has control of none of the regions.

The IRFU are effectively investing in their own businesses.

The WRU are investing in someone elses business and they have very little say in how that money is spent except for what has been agreed as part of the Participation Agreement which the Regions are currently refusing to sign.

The set up in Wales is totally different to Ireland.

True. But the Provinces are run semi independently (by the Provincial branches of the IRFU) under the framework of the IRFU (please correct if wrong). Why couldn't the WRU invest the money under similar conditions? All NWQ players have to be approved by the WRU. Stricter limits of NWQ players. Set release times, etc, etc. I do wonder where the extra £9M+ goes.

Absolutely correct - essentially a sum is agreed and rules agreed.
After that the Provinces get on with it.
If the IRFU don't trust how the Province is run the tap is reduced - as they, quite rightly, did under the previous Ulster administration

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 28 Nov 2013, 10:54 am

Welsh Magician wrote:The regions believe that they have effectively been financing the top tier of Welsh rugby for the past 10 years (running up big debts while the WRU made all the money from it). The regions want better funding and more focus to be put on the professional game in Wales as it is what supports the national team. Unfortunately this has been met with contempt from WRU who seem to want to keep the status quo (and why wouldn't they, been a great moneymaker for them). The regions would be funded on 2007 levels all the way in 2018 if it were solely up to the union. Sign up and die slowly or cease to exist is the threat issued to our professional game in Wales.

I have been looking at this thread, typing responses and then deleting them because I couldn't word them well enough. And then I saw your post and though, yep that is what I wanted to say! clap

People get carried away with the issue of who is making the money etc. The truth is the WRU need the regions and their academies in order to ensure that there is a flow of talent to the national side, now and in the future. It would be short sighted of the WRU to neglect that as it will only lead to a serious international crisis over the next few generations. However the regions were trying to do that, and still trying to break even at the same time, and were not being assisted by the union. From what I have heard there is talk that some/all of the regions are revising their strategies towards signings/renewals for the coming seasons, with more emphasis on having players who are available all year around, and less on retaining current Wales squad members. This way they are still producing young talent, but will hopefully be able to run on a lower budget, and be more competitive through out the season.

I have also been thinking about very low cost ways the Union could help the regions out. We all know that the regions are not pulling in the huge crowds. How many people are signed up to the WRU newsletter email thing? The WRU seem to be firing these out like crazy during the AIs, 6Ns and Summer Tours, why not fire one out a week, saying each regions next game, next home game and recent results, with a tel no. or website link on it. Surely that would not cost the Union more that a few quid, but it would be a reminder to the millennium stadium fans that there are matches on every week, and that they are so much cheaper than the international games etc. If the regions see the union are trying to help support them, not only financially, but in action too, then maybe the regions will be more likely to trust the union and they could forge a more successful future together. Sadly I can't see that happening, because it would not be financially in the unions favour to tell people that they can see international stars (not just welsh, but Irish, Italian, and Scottish opposition too) for less than a third of the price they would pay at the millennium.

by Kingshu Thu 28 Nov 2013, 11:03 am

There is one thing that the people wishing the WRU to fund the regions like the Provinces, don't generally take into account. The Leagues.

The AIB league is a fairly poor league with players being semi-pro or amateur, The Welsh prem is a far better standard.

The IRFU can direct more finances into the Provinces as they put less into the leagues, the WRU put less into the regions as they put more into the domestic leagues.

For the WRU to fund the regions to the same level the IRFU do the provinces, the domestic clubs will lose out.

Its a hard position for the WRU, would Ponty, and the other clubs in the Blues region accept that they were going to have reduced funding so that it can be redirected into the Blues (just an example any region would do)?

If WRU decided to do this they would have about 8 very upset prem clubs and all the 2nd division, (don't think funding would be reduced in divisions on down). Those clubs would create a lot of noise and would generate a lot of ill feeling towards the regions. These clubs also have a big say in the running of the WRU and prob wouldn't agree to it. Therefore I do not see it as a route they are willing to look at.

Therefore the question isn't should the WRU increase funding to the regions but

How can the WRU increase funding to the regions, without effecting the domestic leagues?

I think the answer is they can't, and that is why the regions appear to be under funded.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 28 Nov 2013, 11:24 am

Seen this Gats quote which just sums up the WRU and the 4th AI

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2514618/Warren-Gatland-poached-Alex-Cuthbert-George-North-Wales-Englands-hands.html?ico=sport%5Eheadlines wrote:Gatland is convinced that his team have the calibre to be prime contenders in two years’ time. Asked if Wales can conquer the world, he has no hesitation in saying: ‘Yeah, absolutely.’ Nonetheless, he feels a certain sense of injustice about three of the leading nations being pitched together in Pool A.

‘The saddest thing is that one of those teams – England, Wales or Australia – is going to miss out on making the quarter-finals of the World Cup,’ he said. ‘It seems wrong.

‘We played Australia last year on December 1, which is outside the official Test window. In theory, that result shouldn’t have been included in the calculations.

'Beating us in the last minute was actually the worst thing Australia could do – for them too. It knocked us down the rankings and meant it was possible for us to end up in the same pool, along with England. They would have been better off losing that game.’

The union want to rob the regions of their players in order to play another game, but don't really think that they should risk losing out on ranking points. Talk about deluded.

by Big Thu 28 Nov 2013, 11:39 am

Equally deluded to think that Aus might have thrown the game on the off chance that they'd end up facing the best of the teams ranked 5 to 8 and 9 to 12.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 28 Nov 2013, 11:40 am

Kingshu wrote:How can the WRU increase funding to the regions, without effecting the domestic leagues?

I think the answer is they can't, and that is why the regions appear to be under funded.

So then the question is how can the WRU help promote the regions instead. We all know that they can get manage to get 60-70k into the MS for every game. Can they turn their marketing team towards the regions? Like I said in another post, how much do those e-mail newsletters cost, can't they push the regions by sending them out to the tens of thousands that are MS visiters? Can they advertise the regions HEC/Rabo games on the big screen or on posters around the MS during the AIs/6Ns?

The answer too all of these is YES, but they don't. By doing promo work with/for the regions the union would find it is trusted more, and it would find dealing with the regions over player release and keeping welsh lads in wales far easier.

by HammerofThunor Thu 28 Nov 2013, 11:53 am

Kingshu wrote:There is one thing that the people wishing the WRU to fund the regions like the Provinces, don't generally take into account. The Leagues.

The AIB league is a fairly poor league with players being semi-pro or amateur, The Welsh prem is a far better standard

According to the 2013 Annual Report for the WRU they gave the clubs (semi-professional) £1.2M and £16.6M (I thought this was £15.1M but this probably includes the academy funding) to the Regions.

So thats £17.8M from the WRU and £18.5M from the IRFU AND Central Contracts AND whatever they give the AIB. AND supposedly the WRU take the Lions share of the Pro12 TV money and require players for an extra AI.

by Cardiff Dave Thu 28 Nov 2013, 12:35 pm

Old news but relevant to this thread.....

David Moffett accuses WRU over row with Welsh regions (4 April 2013)

Former Welsh Rugby Union chief executive David Moffett says the governing body is a "laughing stock" because of their row with the regions

"I think it's very very sad for Welsh rugby that the default position by the WRU is one of confrontation and if they don't get their way then they are like kids throwing their toys out of the cot and they go off to the media."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22028771

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 28 Nov 2013, 12:40 pm

Dai - It is a shame it was David Moffett who said that really. It is spot on the money. However because he is such a tool, it comes off as disgruntled ex. employee putting the boat in (in the media, like moans is a wru trick).

by Cardiff Dave Thu 28 Nov 2013, 12:51 pm

doctornickolas wrote:
Notch wrote:Isn't it true that RRW actually rejected an offer of the WRU for central contracting of some players?
Yes they did. The regions are happy to take WRU money but don't want the WRu to have any say in the running of the regions.

CCs were offered, but without any details apparently. I believe this was alluded to during the infamous RRW press conference at the Arms Park several months ago.

by Cardiff Dave Thu 28 Nov 2013, 2:24 pm

This time last year....

"Roger Lewis predicts WRU deal with regions by Christmas- Watch on the Wales report tonight at 22:25"

https://www.606v2.com/t37382-roger-lewis-predicts-wru-deal-with-regions-by-christmas-watch-on-the-wales-report-tonight-at-2225#1685104

by Kingshu Thu 28 Nov 2013, 2:38 pm

between WRU and RRW no-one comes across as trying to sort out the regions, just looking for chances to make the other look bad.

PWC report suggest central contracts with reduced WRU funding not the way forward, WRU still try to pursue this idea.

PWC report suggests independent profession game board to chair meetings between RRW and WRU.

They set it up with an independent chairman. Then WRU try to set meetings with RRW about central contracts without the board, (try to make RRW look bad because they say they won't meet to discuss it) RRW rightly say they won't meet without independent board (but look bad as they do not have the same media)

WRU threaten about new agreement
RRW counters by saying it wants to join the break away cup

What we really really need to happen is for the WRU and RRW to meet with the independent board, and work things out, not to just keep trying to point score against each other, and it needs sorted soon, to many players are leaving Wales, devaluing the regions and the League.

by Cardiff Dave Thu 28 Nov 2013, 4:01 pm

Now that the European theatre of war has been decided, our own civil war continues.
With only 26 squabbling days till xmas, the PA saga should soon be over, one way or the other.

by HammerofThunor Thu 28 Nov 2013, 4:24 pm

I thought the professional game board had 4 reps from the regions and 4 reps from the WRU, which an independent chair?

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 28 Nov 2013, 4:27 pm

Have the RRW officially abandoned the Rugby Jolly good chaps cup yet?

Surely they will have to now with the French gone in a whiff of Gitanes smoke.

by wayne Thu 28 Nov 2013, 4:29 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:I thought the professional game board had 4 reps from the regions and 4 reps from the WRU, which an independent chair?

That is correct Hammer, but the WRU will now not have the Independent Chair as they think a High Court Judge will not be impartial.

by HammerofThunor Thu 28 Nov 2013, 4:33 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Have the RRW officially abandoned the Rugby Jolly good chaps cup yet?

Surely they will have to now with the French gone in a whiff of Gitanes smoke.

Actually it's the Super Awesome-o Cup and you know it. I don't like your attitude in trying to belittle it. Just go play in Amlin Challenge Cup+ instead you fool of a Took (I'm taking you "anyone can abuse me and I won't report it" as a challenge angel

)

by HammerofThunor Thu 28 Nov 2013, 4:33 pm

wayne wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:I thought the professional game board had 4 reps from the regions and 4 reps from the WRU, which an independent chair?
That is correct Hammer, but the WRU will now not have the Independent Chair as they think a High Court Judge will not be impartial.

Has Roger offered to chair it? Promising to stay impartial?

by wayne Thu 28 Nov 2013, 4:50 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
wayne wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:I thought the professional game board had 4 reps from the regions and 4 reps from the WRU, which an independent chair?
That is correct Hammer, but the WRU will now not have the Independent Chair as they think a High Court Judge will not be impartial.
Has Roger offered to chair it? Promising to stay impartial?

Hammer he will propose it, speak on it and validate it if he could.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu 28 Nov 2013, 5:39 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Have the RRW officially abandoned the Rugby Jolly good chaps cup yet?

Surely they will have to now with the French gone in a whiff of Gitanes smoke.
Actually it's the Super Awesome-o Cup and you know it. I don't like your attitude in trying to belittle it. Just go play in Amlin Challenge Cup+ instead you fool of a Took (I'm taking you "anyone can abuse me and I won't report it" as a challenge )

They won't let us in the Amlin. We just put 40 points on everyone and it's no fun. Smile

You Jolly nice chap you.

by Knowsit17 Thu 28 Nov 2013, 6:12 pm

The WRU have tried to do more than they get credit for. They have attempted to initiate dialogue through the PRGB while Gallacher and his cronies have just seemed hellbent on blanking them. It's the WRU who have made the effort to follow PWC recommendations and set up the bodies to bolster finances and investment. All the regions have done is try to break away and join the European rebellion, an endeavour which looks increasingly likely to fail.

This is why I don't get all the criticism levelled at the WRU. If you actually keep up it's clear as day which side is trying to produce some semblance of negotiation.

by HammerofThunor Thu 28 Nov 2013, 6:34 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Have the RRW officially abandoned the Rugby Jolly good chaps cup yet?

Surely they will have to now with the French gone in a whiff of Gitanes smoke.
Actually it's the Super Awesome-o Cup and you know it. I don't like your attitude in trying to belittle it. Just go play in Amlin Challenge Cup+ instead you fool of a Took (I'm taking you "anyone can abuse me and I won't report it" as a challenge )
They won't let us in the Amlin. We just put 40 points on everyone and it's no fun.

You Jolly nice chap you.

Well I tried and failed. You sir, are a gentleman.

by HammerofThunor Thu 28 Nov 2013, 6:36 pm

http://www.scarlets.co.uk/eng/5682.php

Edit: this is a link to something in May this year, not something new

by wayne Thu 28 Nov 2013, 7:32 pm

Knowsit17 wrote:The WRU have tried to do more than they get credit for. They have attempted to initiate dialogue through the PRGB while Gallacher and his cronies have just seemed hellbent on blanking them. It's the WRU who have made the effort to follow PWC recommendations and set up the bodies to bolster finances and investment. All the regions have done is try to break away and join the European rebellion, an endeavour which looks increasingly likely to fail.

This is why I don't get all the criticism levelled at the WRU. If you actually keep up it's clear as day which side is trying to produce some semblance of negotiation.

That is sure a total rewriting of History Knowsit, Price Waterhouse were asked by the WRU to investigate the finances of the Regions with the TOTAL backing of the Regions, one of their recomendations being that Central Contracts for Welsh Internationals was a BAD IDEA. They (PR/WA) proposed a new board be set up with 4 RRW reps, 4 WRU reps and an INDEPENDENT chairman which the WRU named, RRW agreed to the named Chairman, a HIGH COURT JUDGE who is President of a club in the Rhondda, not sure if the club was Penygraig, the first meeting of the PRGB was called, the WRU NEVER TURNED UP, the same happened for 4 successive meetings, they eventually turned up when THEY decided the Independent Chairman was NOT Independent enough for them even though they APPOINTED HIM. The Chairmans name was Williams.
I think actually you are the one that needs to keep up.
PS, with the capitals I'm not shouting, just emphasising the point.

by Knowsit17 Thu 28 Nov 2013, 7:41 pm

wayne wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:The WRU have tried to do more than they get credit for. They have attempted to initiate dialogue through the PRGB while Gallacher and his cronies have just seemed hellbent on blanking them. It's the WRU who have made the effort to follow PWC recommendations and set up the bodies to bolster finances and investment. All the regions have done is try to break away and join the European rebellion, an endeavour which looks increasingly likely to fail.

This is why I don't get all the criticism levelled at the WRU. If you actually keep up it's clear as day which side is trying to produce some semblance of negotiation.
That is sure a total rewriting of History Knowsit, Price Waterhouse were asked by the WRU to investigate the finances of the Regions with the TOTAL backing of the Regions, one of their recomendations being that Central Contracts for Welsh Internationals was a BAD IDEA. They (PR/WA) proposed a new board be set up with 4 RRW reps, 4 WRU reps and an INDEPENDENT chairman which the WRU named, RRW agreed to the named Chairman, a HIGH COURT JUDGE who is President of a club in the Rhondda, not sure if the club was Penygraig, the first meeting of the PRGB was called, the WRU NEVER TURNED UP, the same happened for 4 successive meetings, they eventually turned up when THEY decided the Independent Chairman was NOT Independent enough for them even though they APPOINTED HIM. The Chairmans name was Williams.
I think actually you are the one that needs to keep up.
PS, with the capitals I'm not shouting, just emphasising the point.

Sources?

My mistake, the regions didn't rebuff the PRGB but they are generally highly non-cooperative:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22028777

by Welsh Magician Thu 28 Nov 2013, 7:51 pm

Knowsit17 wrote:
wayne wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:The WRU have tried to do more than they get credit for. They have attempted to initiate dialogue through the PRGB while Gallacher and his cronies have just seemed hellbent on blanking them. It's the WRU who have made the effort to follow PWC recommendations and set up the bodies to bolster finances and investment. All the regions have done is try to break away and join the European rebellion, an endeavour which looks increasingly likely to fail.

This is why I don't get all the criticism levelled at the WRU. If you actually keep up it's clear as day which side is trying to produce some semblance of negotiation.
That is sure a total rewriting of History Knowsit, Price Waterhouse were asked by the WRU to investigate the finances of the Regions with the TOTAL backing of the Regions, one of their recomendations being that Central Contracts for Welsh Internationals was a BAD IDEA. They (PR/WA) proposed a new board be set up with 4 RRW reps, 4 WRU reps and an INDEPENDENT chairman which the WRU named, RRW agreed to the named Chairman, a HIGH COURT JUDGE who is President of a club in the Rhondda, not sure if the club was Penygraig, the first meeting of the PRGB was called, the WRU NEVER TURNED UP, the same happened for 4 successive meetings, they eventually turned up when THEY decided the Independent Chairman was NOT Independent enough for them even though they APPOINTED HIM. The Chairmans name was Williams.
I think actually you are the one that needs to keep up.
PS, with the capitals I'm not shouting, just emphasising the point.
Sources?

My mistake, the regions didn't rebuff the PRGB but they are generally highly non-cooperative:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22028777

I think you are mixing the two.

by Knowsit17 Thu 28 Nov 2013, 7:57 pm

The judge was Wyn Williams yes but I have not seen the post I quoted explicitly spelled out that way anywhere which is why I'm curious as to where it's coming from.

The regions have turned down central contracts at least once already and have stubbornly refused any olive branch the WRU has offered them. It begs the question of what more the WRU could be doing when whatever they propose is waved off without a second thought. And what exactly have the regions themselves done other than stir the pot in trying to jump ship to the RCC?

by wayne Thu 28 Nov 2013, 7:58 pm

So you need sources, when the majority of what I told you was in that article, then they want to set up Central Contracts that Price Waterhouse, the Company they (WRU) appointed said it was a BAD IDEA, and you wonder why RRW wouldn't agree to it.
RRW bent over backwards to help in this process.

by Knowsit17 Thu 28 Nov 2013, 8:02 pm

wayne wrote:So you need sources, when the majority of what I told you was in that article, then they want to set up Central Contracts that Price Waterhouse, the Company they (WRU) appointed said it was a BAD IDEA, and you wonder why RRW wouldn't agree to it.
RRW bent over backwards to help in this process.

Some of it yes but not all.

The bit in bold is the part I'm having difficulty believing. How specifically have RRW been bending over backwards as you claim?

by HammerofThunor Thu 28 Nov 2013, 8:13 pm

I refer back to my link. Key parts bolder.

REGIONS CALL FOR INDEPENDENT ARBITRATOR TO ASSESS WHY PRGB HAS BEEN STALLED
4 April 2013, 4:00 pmBy RRW

Regional Rugby Wales, the organisation which represents the four Welsh regions, the Scarlets, the Ospreys, Newport Gwent Dragons and Cardiff Blues has issued the following joint statement in response to recent communication from the WRU.

Regional Rugby Wales (RRW) calls on the Chief Executive of the WRU, as the leader of the Executive of Welsh rugby's governing body, not to stall the rightful purpose and direction of the agreed and democratic PRGB (Professional Regional Game Board).
RRW urges the WRU not to side-track discussions or detract from the recommendations of the WRU's own independent report undertaken by PWC and completed in October 2012.

The Regions would question why the PRGB has not been taken forward by the WRU and request that it is formally submitted to arbitration to see where the fault lies in this process.

The Regions would question why the WRU is now seemingly ignoring its own independent report and the proper process of the Professional Regional Game Board (PRGB) that it signed up to, to take things forward - choosing instead to revert to an historical debate on central contracts.

The Regions would equally question why that at the formal monthly meeting of the Management Board the Tuesday prior to Judgement Day no mention was made of the letter of invitation to a WRU 'Summit' on central contracts. No mention was made at the double-header event when the four Regions were with the WRU Chief Executive at the Millennium Stadium. The invitation was instead issued by press release.

RRW deplores the seemingly cynical way that a talented young home-grown Welsh international has been placed into the centre of high profile public debate as part of a public statement by the WRU to highlight issues in Welsh rugby.

The Regions worked in a spirit of unity and purpose and with clear trust, good will and openness during the process of the PWC report and the subsequent establishment of PRGB; sharing sensitive financial information with the sole desire to improve the state of the game in Wales, something all four regions passionately support and believe in.

The findings of the independent report made it clear there was no one bullet solution; including disregarding central contracts as an initiative which would not address the key fundamental issues facing Welsh rugby as a whole.

Central contracts for individual players is a knee-jerk reaction - it will not help nurture the whole game in Wales including community rugby and the important role that our clubs play in helping develop young talent for Wales.

The Regions confidence in the scrutiny and process of the independent PWC report, the PRGB and the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) remains unchanged.

The Regions summarise and outline their position as follows:

"It is clear from PWC that a clear strategy is required for Welsh Rugby if it is to survive and prosper.

"All of us in Welsh Rugby need that strategy, so we can determine our own respective progression and work together with best effect for the benefit of Welsh Rugby.

"This is what we have been saying for years. The WRU has chosen to ignore our pleas for rationale debate and the WRU Chief Executive has been prepared to oversee the decline of Welsh rugby outside the international tier.

"The Memorandum of Understanding signed by the WRU and Four Regions in November 2012 agreed democratic representation on a newly established PRGB with an independent chairman with a casting vote.

"After the first meeting of the PRGB; the WRU have withdrawn from negotiations and made an alternative offer to continue with the existing management board with a non-voting chairman and to rename it PRGB.

"This creates a false impression that something has changed. We do not want to be part of something that is not transparent or democratic.

"We are now only happy to rely upon the judgement of the voting independent chairman at the head of PRGB, to act logically in assisting the parties to move forward.

"We have confidence in the WRU's choice of Chairman of the PRGB, as we are confident he will act with logic and integrity for the benefit of Welsh rugby. We were very happy with how he chaired the first meeting and the support and advice he has provided outside that meeting.

"We note that the request at the first and only meeting of the PRGB on December 17th 2012 the independent chairman of the PRGB requested that Roger Lewis and his WRU executives to put forward a clear strategy to take the game forward in Wales. This has never been produced.

"For the WRU to conduct itself in this way in the public domain, under the leadership of the Chief Executive, is in our view, not acceptable for a governing body which is ultimately responsible for the state of Welsh rugby and which sets the standards for and leads the promotion of our game across the world.

"The Professional game in Wales is in decline. We need solid, democratic action to halt that. Continuing to reduce bank debt, investing in hospitality boxes and other capital scheme are strategic choices made by the WRU, which may or may not be the best use of resources; and we are not in a position to judge.

"However, it is all about strategic choice. We continue to uphold the PWC report that clearly states: "greater collaboration is required between the WRU and the Regions, as currently the structure is not viable."

"We do not believe that this should just be about control of the "elite" game in Wales. PWC recommended better collaboration on how finances are used for the protection and development of Welsh rugby including the international game, professional game, premiership and community game.

"It would seem the voices and pleas for help from the grassroots of Welsh rugby are not being heard as the WRU's preoccupation continues with the elite headline tier of the game.

"We share the Welsh rugby public's frustration and dismay about the state of Welsh rugby and the way that these discussions are being played out in the media.

"We want to act with a sense of maturity, purpose and unity and ensure that Welsh rugby does survive and prosper."

In light of the Region's position, RRW would challenge the WRU and ask a series of fundamental questions to be answered for transparency and purpose:

Why is the WRU Executive now not comfortable with having an independent chairman with voting rights to preside over the PRGB?
When will the WRU put forward its strategy for the future of the game in Wales to the PRGB members as requested at the first meeting of the Board?
Does the WRU consider it is acting with integrity as it seeks to play out its position in the public arena first without reference or discussions with the Four Regions and an opportunity to discuss privately?
Why are the WRU focusing primarily on central contracts when its own independent report highlighted this was not the solution for Welsh rugby?
Have the statements that have been issued been fully supported and endorsed by the Board of the WRU?

by Sponsored content