2nd test Adelaide

First topic message reminder :

all the reprots coming out indicate that this will be a "typical English pitch "
batting friendly, dry, offering reverse and a lot of turn in 2nd inning Alan Border thinks.
 
that wouldn't be what Aus would have liked..and would like to alter whatever bit they can in the end......althouhg I understand it is harder to alter a drop in pitch.
 
Teams:
 
I would like to make a fairly early call on what the team changes might be....not based on what I would like to see but rather..reading into the mind  of the two coaches.
 
--Eng might  bring in Stokes and Bresnan for Trott and Tremlett.
Bresnan is a favorite of Flower mentality.......a batsman and a bowler packed into one.....how much he can hold against the Aussie pace as a batter will be tested....bowling....well he picked 4-fer in some junior game yesterday...in the best of times he struggles to be consistently above 132kph and now coming back from injury...dunno how how fast he can be but certainly can't do worse than Tremlett's 122kph.
 
Stokes I know not much about other than career stats on CI....but he might be picked on the rationale that he is not much less of a batsman than Ballance and Bairstow and can bowl also...spreading the workload over 5 bowlers and cushioning the undercooked Bresnan.
 
--Aus might bring in Faulkner for Bailey.....as he can reverse the ball, was in no less a blistering form with the bat in India then Bailey.....and is a proper brisk fast medium bowler who will cushion the work-load on their genuine pacers preserving them for rocket fast WACA the next test.
This is where Watson's inability to bowl 15 overs a day is putting more pressure on him.....and should Faulkner have a good game and Watson not......he is at risk of being edged out....not immediately but sooner than later.

Johnson got Cook early and Joe Root and Michael Carberry are out in the middle. England 10-1, another 15 more overs to go in the day.

That Cook wicket yet again showing the value of pace. There wasn't much of movement in that ball, Cook was beaten for pace and was bowled.

There is an air of inevitability about this. The England batsmen are playing purely to survive but are stuck on their crease asking for trouble and increasing thebpressure on themselves - 13 for 1.

Ah a boundary for Carberry. Didn't see that coming, the way they were batting.

At least they have gotvthe scoreboard ticking over again - 27 for 1. They must survive until close of play.

And I'm going back to sleep...

Australia would dearly love another wicket before close of play.

Great touch from the two teams giving Mandela a moment of silence at the start of play

England somehow survive without any more wickets down closing on 35 for 1. You feel either Carberry or Root or both now simply have to score centuries. England's hopes hanging on a precarious thread.

If I were the Daily Mail - I'd be preparing a mock Ashes urn in a typical publicity stance, because Australia look all over them.

England just about managed to survive the day with only 1 down. The ball is already 21 overs old, so there may not be too much that it would do tomorrow. But The Australian seamers are quick, and so it'll continue to be a real test for the English batsmen, particularly because of the scoreboard pressure. Unlike yesterday, no questions on who's ahead in the game at the moment. All that England can do is to play catchup cricket for the rest of game and somehow fight out a draw.

I think it is clear that this England team now is not in the same shape as they have been in recent Ashes series. The batting is not as consistent as it was and Jimmy Anderson is not the threat he was in recent series hence his slide down world rankings. Swann also has not been as tuned in either of late and Prior is woefully out of form with the bat. All problems that weren't there in the past. On top of that Australia now have restored a bit of belief, have been more fired up and focussed. That is why this series is drifting away from England in my opinion.

contrary to my expetctaions last night........Eng simply surrendered and Aus made pulp out of them with the bat......and with 570 on the board....Eng were going to start under 20 atmospheric pressure.....

and the way Carberry and Root have been inclined to EAT balls......sooner one will come and get them.

Instead they should bat freely and play their strokes.....and gain confidence and push Aussie back.......and win some pride and in doing so they might even go so far as saving the test.

CaledonianCraig wrote:I think it is clear that this England team now is not in the same shape as they have been in recent Ashes series. .

The writing was on the walll in the matches at home this year also for Eng.

slender wins except in T2..........luck of tosss and batting first....luck of Rains .....better luck on DRS sc.rew ups

Big cracks were visible....and they have simply exploded....

A big big day tomorrow for England. They can't even draw the test tomorrow, but they could go a huge way towards losing the test and most likely the ashes. Best case scenario would be for england to close tomorrow around the follow on mark with only 4 or 5 down. Worst case......well it could get decidedly grim.

Well ignoring KP fan taunts etc : a terrific day for Australia , not entirely unexpected. Flat pitch , two good players in Clarke and Haddin and just the odd bit of luck going their way early ...not at all surprised they got 570.
Neither am I surprised to have lost Cook early : after two days in the field one of the openers often goes cheaply , and from all accounts it was a fine delivery that cleaned him up. (one disadvantage of opening bat captains : when this sort of situation arises , the man who has already been under the most mental pressure for a long time has to re-set his mind to batting , and even the best often find this hard )

So where from here ? Play it a session at a time , I reckon...or ten overs at a time , if you like : the important thing (mentally) for England is not to focus on the mountain of runs in front of them , or distant targets like the follow on...Just bat . Make it as much like a first innings , on a good pitch , as possible. If batsmen can get settled , there are surely runs for them just as there were for Australia.
If England can get up near the Australian total , a lot of the presumed damage to morale that the first match and the first two days here have inflicted would be largely negated , and they would be back in the contest. after which anything can happen.
Not suggesting this will be easy ; but if they want to fight to keep the urn then they will need to start here.
One bright note for England : it appears Stokes ( no ball errors apart !) may be a bit of a prospect , at least with the ball. Hope he can do something with the bat ...I am sure he would appreciate another chance in Perth , and is a fair chance to get it , given they certainly won't be picking two spinners there   Not sure I would be picking any ...

Stokes clearly bowled better than James Anderson did. Anderson bowled only 10 overs today while I felt he was overbowled a touch yesterday and Stokes underbowled. Stokes has decent pace, has reasonable control...... He should be given more chances in this series and stick with him at 6 for some time.

KP_fan wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:I think it is clear that this England team now is not in the same shape as they have been in recent Ashes series. .

The writing was on the walll in the matches at home this year also for Eng.

slender wins except in T2..........luck of tosss and batting first....luck of Rains .....better luck on DRS sc.rew ups

Big cracks were visible....and they have simply exploded....

I agree and disagree in ways. Yes in the summer you had England players not at their best but when you are winning comfortably it is harder to focus/notice and work on those weaknesses.

This is almost like the World War Two scenario. England are like Britain in that they won the war and complacently rested on their laurels took victory to mean everything in their make-up of society was fine and so stagnated. Australia could be likened to Germany who lost the war and realised a complete overhaul was needed, a fresh start and reorganising their manufacturing etc and in the following years reaped the rewards in industry for it whereas Britain regressed. That is the nearest comparison I can think of.

Another thing that doesn't instill confidence is that, unlike the last few Ashes series, England are now relying on a new breed of players unproven at Ashes level needing century-esque scores from them - those players being Carberry, Root and Stokes.

CaledonianCraig wrote:    
This is almost like the World War Two scenario. England are like Britain in that they won the war and complacently rested on their laurels  took victory to mean everything in their make-up of society was fine and so stagnated. Australia could be likened to Germany who lost the war and realised a complete overhaul was needed, a fresh start and reorganising their manufacturing etc and in the following years reaped the rewards in industry for it whereas Britain regressed. That is the nearest comparison I can think of.

it's a far fetched comparison.....but amusing neverthless......Aussies like the big bad nazi war machine:D

No don't look it as political or good/bad forces more of facts of how one deals with adversity or wins. England won the Ashes comfortably in the summer though some players were off song but the wins papered over those cracks and the warning signs were missed. On the other side the Aussies took a sound beating and realised their failings and knew they had problems to address and set about that. They benifited and learnt whereas England didn't.

It is also possible that for some England players in the squad this is one Ashes series too far. Anderson may be past his best, Trott's problems have been well-documented whilst others such as Swann and Prior are struggling for form and may never recover it. Plenty of former key players there for England with problems and that really does punch big holes in the England side. Akin to a 36-year-old punch drunk boxer who is involved in just one fight too many.

England will be fine - they should avoid the follow-on and see out the game with little issue. It really is flat out there. Only thing that can stop England is scoreboard pressure. England could still even win this game, if they get within 50 runs of Australia.

Slightly disappointed that England let Australia get away, but the Ashes are a long way from done yet.

And, KP_fan, "luck with tosses"? Does that extend to Australia this series, or is it only one team on the end of your anti-Englishness?

I admire your confidence Duty but cannot see where it is coming from..England have not posted a score of over 400 in a first innings for such a long time now. On top of that for that to happen here you'd feel one off Carberry, Root or Stokes will have to weigh in with a big score and they are largely unproven at Ashes level. Also Prior will also need to refind form with the bat - a lot of ifs there.

Oh dear god...

Duty....a top team should be able to win.......even when losing the toss....and eng have not shown the abilty to do that in the last 7 games...and this is a the sign of decline.

CC....the biggest stress that Eng can give Aus in this test is with the decision....to Enforce the follow-on or not if / when they very likely fall short of 370 target.

KP_fan wrote:Duty....a top team should be able to win.......even when losing the toss....and eng have not shown the abilty to do that in the last 7 games...and this is a the sign of decline.

CC....the biggest stress that Eng can give Aus in this test is with the decision....to Enforce the follow-on or not if / when they very likely fall short of 370 target.

Like Mumbai and Kolkata you mean?

Duty281 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:Duty....a top team should be able to win.......even when losing the toss....and eng have not shown the abilty to do that in the last 7 games...and this is a the sign of decline.

CC....the biggest stress that Eng can give Aus in this test is with the decision....to Enforce the follow-on or not if / when they very likely fall short of 370 target.

Like Mumbai and Kolkata you mean?

was that in the last 7 games ??

actually that was the peak of this English side....the amount of adversity they could surmount and come back......relative to that peak the decline is obviously evident

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:Duty....a top team should be able to win.......even when losing the toss....and eng have not shown the abilty to do that in the last 7 games...and this is a the sign of decline.

CC....the biggest stress that Eng can give Aus in this test is with the decision....to Enforce the follow-on or not if / when they very likely fall short of 370 target.

Like Mumbai and Kolkata you mean?

was that in the last 7 games ??

actually that was the peak of this English side....the amount of adversity they could surmount and come back......relative to that peak the decline is obviously evident

England at their peak that time?

They'd just come off a thumping by Pakistan, a draw in Sri Lanka, and a humbling by the Saffers.

It is just an inevitabity when you think about it.

In recent times England's side had a rich vein of consistency where the batting line-up was assured and scoring big. Opening you had Cook and Strauss - largely guaranteeing a rock solid start. At three you had Trott who was more often than not weighing in with a century followed by Pietersen whose destructive batting was an added dimension then super consistent Bell and then Prior waiting to back up with a big score in quick time. With runs guaranteed on the board pressure was on the opponents and a younger, fresher Anderson suuported ably by spin of Swann and seam of Broad and an other and it made for a formidable unit.

Now though that just is not there. There is no stable and settled opening partnwrship and it isn't tried and trusted and Cook's guaranteed big score are a little less guaranteed now. With one wicket falling there is no talismanic Trott to call upon now and instead the pressure falls upon young Joe Root who is still unproven at Ashes level. Granted you still have Pietersen and Bell but now if they don't deliver you are left to ask where the big scores are going to come from - certainly not Prior then you rely on debutant Stokes to perform heroics or the tail to wag profusely. The bowling line-up with less runs on the board suddenly looks older and less daunting and all-round you see the weaknesses that have developed in this England side which teams are exploiting.

Root will show why he is England's brightest talent tomorrow..

Not sure about carbs. He has been talked up about his fielding and batting by many. I can't see strengths in either part of his game .

Picking Monty was foolish.

Stokes maybe not. However I feel as though they came as a package.

Both or Finn and ballance..

Aus riding England's lack of clinical play that got them to the top of the world. It's looking like we have hit the edge ,and it's a long quick fall into oblivion...

However. If root and co can get tons and we can force this draw we can make there bowling look ordinary. This series is back on.

Forget conditions . The ashes is about momentum..

England will be fine. Need to score at a good lick though.

As long as England are batting by stumps on Day 3 - the test will be saved.

The Ashes could well be decided in Perth, upon which the momentum will hang.

Root has been tipped for great things for some time now but to expect so much of one so young and to date unproven at Ashes level seems a bit like clutching at straws to me. Has he yet made a century against Australia? At least Carberry tried playing shots and scoring and so far in this series he must be close to outscoring Cook so it is a bit unfair to round on him. The worry for me is there are more question marks over players in the side just now than not and that should not be the case.

I think I will hold off on dissecting England's decay until after this series is over : if the crushing series defeat most are apparently now expecting eventuates then there will clearly be time for apportioning blame...on the other hand if they bounce back , save this game , go on to success - then examination of the corpse will perhaps be seen as premature...

I agree with some points made above : yes there were warning signs in the summer : the batting was iffy , Prior had a rotten series...but what precisely should England have done ? Drop Prior ? He had just come off a stellar year and was probably entitled to some credit.
Drop Cook ? Or Trott ...was his poor series down to mental issues ? Maybe it was , in the light of recent events. But as they were still battling to settle on an opening successor to Strauss , I am not surprised they didn't make any abrupt moves.
Certainly Swann hasn't had a happy start to this tour. But he just took 26 wickets in England , so was he a "weak link" ?
Anderson bashing is starting up , gently. Light on wickets so far , yes. But quite notably the only bowler to offer any control on this flat pitch. Could it be the Australians are being a bit more careful of keeping him out while attacking others ?
Obviously , some of the stars of the team aren't sparkling much , yet. But at the moment , I would suggest a good deal of credit goes to Australia for making the most of winning two good tosses : getting out of gaol on day one at the Gabba (Haddin and Johnson played brilliantly) and then rather shocking England on a bouncy strip on day two...and now doing what a good side should batting first in Adelaide. Pretty similar to last year against SA , actually , except they finished England off properly first up. If they can do so again they are well placed to take the series...but if they don't we could still have some interesting matches coming up.

He made a 180 v aus and 79 last test in England.

He opened pretty well in fairness and was getting better as the series went on. It was insane to drop him from opening

CaledonianCraig wrote:Root has been tipped for great things for some time now but to expect so much of one so young and to date unproven at Ashes level seems a bit like clutching at straws to me. Has he yet made a century against Australia? At least Carberry tried playing shots and scoring and so far in this series he must be close to outscoring Cook so it is a bit unfair to round on him. The worry for me is there are more question marks over players in the side just now than not and that should not be the case.

Er...yes he has. A glorious three dart special, I believe.

Duty281 wrote:England will be fine. Need to score at a good lick though.

As long as England are batting by stumps on Day 3 - the test will be saved.

The Ashes could well be decided in Perth, upon which the momentum will hang.

I'd share more confidence about England being fine if Carberry and Root can get through the first hour of play tomorrow unscathed. It is all about getting yourself in and once you have done that on this wicket things seem easier. Also it means more effort and longer bowling for the Aussies which inevitably takes its toll as the day goes on. Draw the sting out of the attack and gradually build momentum and there may be light at the end of the tunnel. A lot of ifs there though.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Root has been tipped for great things for some time now but to expect so much of one so young and to date unproven at Ashes level seems a bit like clutching at straws to me. Has he yet made a century against Australia? At least Carberry tried playing shots and scoring and so far in this series he must be close to outscoring Cook so it is a bit unfair to round on him. The worry for me is there are more question marks over players in the side just now than not and that should not be the case.

Well yes , Root made 180 at Lord's a few months back. Hasn't scored consistently yet , and has been moved around a bit in the order - bit like Bell a few years back. Again I'd rather make judgements after this series is over.

Anyway you cannot have it both ways ; if you think the team was in decline , new players have to be introduced. Nobody said Test Cricket was easy...

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:England will be fine. Need to score at a good lick though.

As long as England are batting by stumps on Day 3 - the test will be saved.

The Ashes could well be decided in Perth, upon which the momentum will hang.

I'd share more confidence about England being fine if Carberry and Root can get through the first hour of play tomorrow unscathed. It is all about getting yourself in and once you have done that on this wicket things seem easier. Also it means more effort and longer bowling for the Aussies which inevitably takes its toll as the day goes on. Draw the sting out of the attack and gradually build momentum and there may be light at the end of the tunnel. A lot of ifs there though.

Relax, breathe, and think of England.

Think of glory, and those lovely sunlit days on an Empire that never saw the sun set. Think of those miles and miles of lush green on the English fields, the utopia of this world, God's paradise if I ever did see one.

Think of those happy days when the English cricket team won where they pleased, and conquered all they surveyed.

The good times.

And breathe again.

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Root has been tipped for great things for some time now but to expect so much of one so young and to date unproven at Ashes level seems a bit like clutching at straws to me. Has he yet made a century against Australia? At least Carberry tried playing shots and scoring and so far in this series he must be close to outscoring Cook so it is a bit unfair to round on him. The worry for me is there are more question marks over players in the side just now than not and that should not be the case.

Er...yes he has. A glorious three dart special, I believe.

Consistently though? He made one telling score of 180 and one of 62 in five tests and the rest he failed to make double figures IIRC. Not knocking him as I feel he has it in him but he needs to deliver tonight - big time.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:England will be fine. Need to score at a good lick though.

As long as England are batting by stumps on Day 3 - the test will be saved.

The Ashes could well be decided in Perth, upon which the momentum will hang.

I'd share more confidence about England being fine if Carberry and Root can get through the first hour of play tomorrow unscathed. It is all about getting yourself in and once you have done that on this wicket things seem easier. Also it means more effort and longer bowling for the Aussies which inevitably takes its toll as the day goes on. Draw the sting out of the attack and gradually build momentum and there may be light at the end of the tunnel. A lot of ifs there though.

I'd agree with that , CC. Worth remembering Australia were 174/4 at one point , so the longer teams - and players - bat the easier it seems to get.

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:England will be fine. Need to score at a good lick though.

As long as England are batting by stumps on Day 3 - the test will be saved.

The Ashes could well be decided in Perth, upon which the momentum will hang.

I'd share more confidence about England being fine if Carberry and Root can get through the first hour of play tomorrow unscathed. It is all about getting yourself in and once you have done that on this wicket things seem easier. Also it means more effort and longer bowling for the Aussies which inevitably takes its toll as the day goes on. Draw the sting out of the attack and gradually build momentum and there may be light at the end of the tunnel. A lot of ifs there though.

Relax, breathe, and think of England.

Think of glory, and those lovely sunlit days on an Empire that never saw the sun set. Think of those miles and miles of lush green on the English fields, the utopia of this world, God's paradise if I ever did see one.

Think of those happy days when the English cricket team won where they pleased, and conquered all they surveyed.

The good times.

And breathe again.

Duty ,you never fail to lift my spirits  

Might be hard work tomorrow , but at least let us look forward to the battle with hope rather than trepidation . 

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Root has been tipped for great things for some time now but to expect so much of one so young and to date unproven at Ashes level seems a bit like clutching at straws to me. Has he yet made a century against Australia? At least Carberry tried playing shots and scoring and so far in this series he must be close to outscoring Cook so it is a bit unfair to round on him. The worry for me is there are more question marks over players in the side just now than not and that should not be the case.

Er...yes he has. A glorious three dart special, I believe.

Consistently though? He made one telling score of 180 and one of 62 in five tests and the rest he failed to make double figures IIRC. Not knocking him as I feel he has it in him but he needs to deliver tonight - big time.

What's the point in blooding him in ..

He has shown he has the ability and range of shots. He should have been left at 2. 

However I do feel with the loss of trott. Root at 3 and carbs at 2 is the right play. But that has come about by luck over judgement

Well tonight is going to be either the making or breaking of England in this series. If they avoid the follow on it would be reasonable to presume that Carberry, Stokes and Prior had made contributions which will help them no end in upcoming tests and may give bavk a more steely look to the batting line-up relieving a bit of pressure on the bowling attack. However, if we see no notable contribitions from them and them failing to avoid the follow on then it is another blow to brittle confidences and will leave them mentally in a bad place from which you couldnt see them recovering enough in time to change the direction the urn is heading in.

If we do not get past the follow on and then do not bat out the game for a draw- we are right up sh!t creek.

And one last positive thought for tonight : amid all the doom and gloom and suspicions that Australia are somehow suddenly miles better : cast your minds back to Lord's this summer - practically a mirror image of Brisbane the other week. And that was Australia's sixth loss in a row ! Yet in their next match they won an important toss , made 500 , and were arguably deprived of a win by bad weather. Same players , more or less ...just got a good start and went on with it . That is how easily confidence can swing around...mind you it didn't stop them losing the next match. But it perhaps marked their first move up from the bottom of what had looked like a very deep pit.
Gaps between teams are often a lot less than people think. And "momentum" is vastly overrated.

"That is how easily confidence can swing around...mind you it didn't stop them losing the next match. But it perhaps marked their first move up from the bottom of what had looked like a very deep pit.
Gaps between teams are often a lot less than people think. And "momentum" is vastly overrated."

There isnt a gap in quality only momentum and confidence which can swing very quickly.

Oh well. England to score 750 by the end of day 4 and then bowl out the Aussies for 150 on a crumbling 5th day pitch.
One can dream. 

Looks like i made the correct decision to go to bed at 1am

What a shocking night of cricket. Best we can get out of the 2nd test is a draw.

It is very worthwhile considering the fact that Australia's biggest scorers Michael Clarke, Brad Haddin and George Bailey were all given a second life when they were dropped when at the start of their innings. England must rue what might have been.