2nd test Adelaide

First topic message reminder :

all the reprots coming out indicate that this will be a "typical English pitch "
batting friendly, dry, offering reverse and a lot of turn in 2nd inning Alan Border thinks.
 
that wouldn't be what Aus would have liked..and would like to alter whatever bit they can in the end......althouhg I understand it is harder to alter a drop in pitch.
 
Teams:
 
I would like to make a fairly early call on what the team changes might be....not based on what I would like to see but rather..reading into the mind  of the two coaches.
 
--Eng might  bring in Stokes and Bresnan for Trott and Tremlett.
Bresnan is a favorite of Flower mentality.......a batsman and a bowler packed into one.....how much he can hold against the Aussie pace as a batter will be tested....bowling....well he picked 4-fer in some junior game yesterday...in the best of times he struggles to be consistently above 132kph and now coming back from injury...dunno how how fast he can be but certainly can't do worse than Tremlett's 122kph.
 
Stokes I know not much about other than career stats on CI....but he might be picked on the rationale that he is not much less of a batsman than Ballance and Bairstow and can bowl also...spreading the workload over 5 bowlers and cushioning the undercooked Bresnan.
 
--Aus might bring in Faulkner for Bailey.....as he can reverse the ball, was in no less a blistering form with the bat in India then Bailey.....and is a proper brisk fast medium bowler who will cushion the work-load on their genuine pacers preserving them for rocket fast WACA the next test.
This is where Watson's inability to bowl 15 overs a day is putting more pressure on him.....and should Faulkner have a good game and Watson not......he is at risk of being edged out....not immediately but sooner than later.

So hotspot is here..

I thought it wasn't being used this series.


Not out though

You feel now that this partnership of Carberry and Pietersen must see this through to lunch. If not it will have been Australia's morning.

There isn't much out there for bowlers.

The problems are in England's minds. There is clear aura and sense that they have the fear of failure..

KP gone  

Getting a bad feeling about this...

Oh dear......

Headsgone

Sorry that is pathetic and Goodnight Vienna. Pietersen with a wreckless shot holes out caught in the covers. England committing hari-kari. Time for bed me thinks?

They need to lose the fear...

What's left.

Bell, stokes, prior .


I am not confident.

Game over, man. Game over.

mystiroakey wrote:There isn't much out there for bowlers.

The problems are in England's minds. There is clear aura and sense that they have the fear of failure..

Thing is , there doesn't need to be much for the bowlers when you have 570 on the board. Just bowl steady and keep the pressure on , and it takes strong and confident batting to combat .
And England's batsmen seem - collectively , and rather oddly - to have lost confidence , round about since they went to NZ last year. No-one that I have seen has really explained why this should be so...they scored plenty in India. But since then...

Bell is looking totally different out there though. No fear from him and good alert movement

The one player that has kept a very good standard whilst the others have lost confidence.

Well done carbs, great 50

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Game over, man. Game over.

Perhaps not quite over yet...but looking very grim.

Getting up to that follow on is looking tough now. Perhaps the best chance is to get as close as possible to it and then have a really big second innings. Which would have the added benefit of exhausting the Australian bowlers...

But I have to admit it is hard to avoid the feeling that the belief has gone from the team.

It is notable that when England regain the Ashes , it is generally at the end of a tough , hard-fought series , usually 2-1. Whereas when they lose them , it tends to be in a landslide...

Which this series is now threatening to be.

Carberry 50. Well played. 

Though he still owes them a few after that Haddin drop  

But he is putting the bowling into some perspective. Application , concentration , making the most of his ability ?

Lesson for KP there ?

KP seems constitutionally incapable of learning any lessons.
England would be better off without him, at least we wouldn't have the oohs and aahs of expectation that a brilliant flourish would get us out of the soup. He just doesn't care about England and I don't see why England should give a monkey's about him.

What an unbelievable catch from Warner to dismiss Carberry. He was going along very nicely.

From what I understand, I am only following on TMS and BBC live text, brainless shots from Root and KP and a worldie of a catch from Warner to see off Carbs. Half chances being taken, it makes a huge difference.

Carbs played fine and got out to a good catch. not the worst shot in the world and he is forgiven. the other two were brainless.

Reading through some of these comments made me chuckle. Carbs getting a lot of the blame despite being England's highest runscorer (so far).

Root plays a stupid shot
KP was brainless

who has blamed carbs- not one poster mate

Australia getting better at calling for the DRS.
You could hear the sound of bat (but pad first) and again Mitch beats Stokes for pace to have him LBW.

Johnson strikes again - Prior gone now. 117/6

Matt Prior's career is seriously unravelling in 2013.

His horror run has seen him bag FIVE ducks in 2013.

Dare he fail in the second innings, he could be playing for his career in Perth.

Broad bowled by MJ for a duck. Vicious delivery!

Mitch is on the rampage!

Cleans up Stokes, Prior and Broad.

He's on a hat trick!

England are rabbits to the slaughter here!

Myst, on previous pages etc... Just knocking him for no reason. He has looked our best batsman

Career defining moments for Mitchell Johnson!

6-fer and on a hat trick.

Absolutely destroying England!

Wow... Mitch smashes through Anderson's sticks and gives him a gobful as well.

Poor old Monty getting peppered here...

Don't rub it Montster!

Mitchell Johnson knocks over England's 3rd best batsman Monty Panesar to finish with 7-40 as England were bowled out for 172.
Monty for number 3 in the 2nd innings anyone?

That is the urn gone south today. England blown away for less than 200 on a cracking batting strip. Clarke refuses to enforce the follow-on and after tea Australia look to pile on the agony. Anderson wakes from a slumber with two quick wickets but at 16 for 2 Australia are in cruise control mode.

The Ashes urn has gone already and I believe a few established England players careers could be time to end.

The players I have in mind are those either in their 30's and out of form who are highly unlikely to play another Ashes Series would be Anderson, Trott, Prior and Swann. Now is the time to have a complete overhhaul.

It is no real surprise the way this series is going if you look at key areas. Roles have been reversed as in Australia have the most potent attack and it is backing up their batting line-up which has also been far more secure than England's. England also look mentally fried with nobody in their side (except Bell) able to stand up and be counted.

CaledonianCraig wrote:The players I have in mind are those either in their 30's and out of form who are highly unlikely to play another Ashes Series would be Anderson, Trott, Prior and Swann. Now is the time to have a complete overhhaul.

All those players are young enough to last until the next ashes in Oz in 2016 (Swann will be 36 but that's ok for a spinner). The bowling unit hasn't been great in this series but has done a fine job in every series previously in the last couple of years. Prior has too much credit in the bank to discard at 31 - if he doesn't find form early in the next series I would rest him with a view to him re-discovering form with his county.

The batting is the real concern but even there the question is whether there are better alternatives. Dropping KP for a test might be an option but with Trott already gone that would leave the middle order bereft of experience. The long term worry is that the younger guys are not pressing claims for a permanent place at all. Root is the only youngster who has really made any impact over the last couple of years. The lines of Bairstow and Morgan have really struggled.

I think the most irritating thing about England's innings was that the four out and out batsmen who batted today all looked relatively comfortable. Three of them got themselves out (albeit I'm being a little harsh on Carberry who was caught by a worldie from Warner) and Bell was unbeaten. If it's 350/4 then maybe the tail look less rabbit-like.

Beauty from Monty to get rid of Clarke.

Just a massacre, will take a miracle for us to draw this mow

how do you fail to get more than 200 on this deck, on day 3, with the new ball done?? Great bowling from Johnson, when he gets like this, only Steyn is even on the same plane as him.

England really are struggling this series, I thought that it may be close but this is not what I expected.

Full credit to the Aussies, they have come back well and are showing that the score line last series was a little flattering to England.

Englands batsmen need to find their confidence back and fast.

The mental thing about it is that Bell looked like he could play it just spinning on his man sausage. Looked so at ease.

This series we've gone from 82-2 to 91-8.
From 130-3 to 151-8.
And from 113-3 to 117-7.

The senior players just haven't performed

Geoff Boycott reckons Pieterson, Prior, Swann and Broad should pack their bags along with the coaching staff . Broad's humiliation complete after the latest bout of attempted cheatery !

i woke up with an OMG...they've done it to themsleves again...lost in a heap 4 for 6 and 6 for about 20 odd.

On a closer view though:

1) Johnson's been superhuman spells that have turned the otehrwise useful lower middle orders into proverbial rabbits.

But not much can be done about these magic Johnson spells ......and Eng should not be self critical nor ashamed about these.

However taking Johnson out of the equation and yet there is a lot that Eng has not done well.

2) Even before lightening Johnson struck.....Eng were going at 110-4 at about 2.2 RPO...and looking like finishing WITH THE HELP of lower middle order at best around 270.

compare that to Australia's 570

3) Eng try to fix what ain't broke...what is settled should not be disturbed....use the variable in unsettled positions.

So Root has done well at 6...showed like getting back in rythm in last test at no.6....so leave him there lock the No. 6.

and it seems they will make the same mistake of distrubing the well functioning No. 5 with Bell moving him up perhaps.

4) Positive intent......just ain't there...yesterday I wrote...eating the balls wasn't gonna take Root anywhere...and it's the pressure of "tortosing" that killed him.

someone giving KP too many instruction on get-set, build your innings, see-off etc.

The series may be hard to retrieve from here....but pride can be.......the've gotta match or exceed AUS minus the Johnson factor..play with positive intent, aggression and passion.

Traits that dour, dead defesive Flower is not capable of invoking..he's gotta change...it's tough to teach an old dog new tricks.....or more likely make way for someone else.

Oh blimey I find myself responding to KP fan...

OK what do you want Flower to do ?

You reckon moving Root was wrong.
You don't want him to move Bell.
You complain he won't try anything different , yet when they make the move ( foolishly in my view ) to recast the team to include two spinners you overlook this ; obviously you can't say " good move" because it wasn't , but surely you can't perist with the "stuck in a groove" criticism ?

Fact is Australia have got in front early in this series and are suddenly looking unstoppable. Confident , everything working for them...going to be hard to turn this around. And your mate KP must shoulder a lot of blame : batting in a pivotal position he has thrown his wicket away three times in a row...

I am definitely surprised at how badly England have folded in this series , but comments above suggesting shredding the team overnight seem a bit OTT : Australia is winning this largely on the efforts of 36 year old comeback wicketkeeper Haddin , 32 year old back from the dead fast bowler Johnson and stalwart skipper Clarke. No sense in discarding tried and true players on the back of a couple of bad games. Rocket up the bum , fine...but do not go silly about it.
Prior's spot should be under threat now , but otherwise we just need sensible selection for Perth and a bit of resolution.
Looks almost impossible to save the series now (this one is surely gone ) but they have to come out in Perth with intent.
Selectors need to determine who is up for it.

The way the Aussies are playing reminds me of England in 2005. Aggresive, fearless cricket. While England look scared to lose and are afraid of doing the wrong thing. Sadly this fear is causing them to do the wrong thing more often.

Agree with Alfie, don't really see your point kp_fan you say he's dour and won't change, but the team selection for this test and throughout the tour suggests otherwise...

Prior is in danger now. Might have to concede to mysti on that one...

alfie wrote:Oh blimey I find myself responding to KP fan...

OK what do you want Flower to do ?

You reckon moving Root was wrong.
You don't want him to move Bell.
You complain he won't try anything different , yet when they make the move ( foolishly in my view ) to recast the team to include two spinners you overlook this ; obviously you can't say " good move" because it wasn't , but surely you can't perist with the "stuck in a groove" criticism ?

what Flower could have done  on a consistent basis :

1) Play agressive positive brand of cricket.......encourgae stroke play......score runs while out there..rather than EATING balls.
KP is the biggest example...trying to bat like a Trott right from this summer series...instead of the KP that he is.....obviously under the "instructions" from team management.

2) Leave Root at 6 and Bell at 5......where they have proven to score runs...atleast secure the runs coming from those slots....instead of messing up Nos 3,5,6 all.

Now  who bats at 3......it's a difficult querstion......but the enormity of this difficulty created by the highly paid Flower...whose job was to be prepared for this situation.
Especially knowing that incumbent No.3 was caryying a mental situation.

Just because I ( or you or none on this board) cannot impromtu give a perfect  No.3 solution does not mean Flower is also excused from this debacle.

Because neitehr we are highly paid full time English Performance Directors....nor do we have all the inside knowldeg that Flower has.
For instance many things could have been done such as havign the spare batsmen playing at No. 3 in ODis...having Comton anotehr new ball plyer in the equation to come at No. 3......and probably half a dozen otehr permutaions, planned and simualted in First class / tour games and ODI situations.

3) Pace
what has he done to get their fastest bowler conditoned to deliver more...what we can see his with the constant in-out they have turned Finn into a jelly .
there must be a few otehrs in England who can bowl in ther 85.90mph ramnge consistently who could have been groomed.

4) designer pitches....I saw staring from in wadeka_azhar era...India's Kumble oriented designer pitches......breaks the fighting spirit of the team as they are a little outside their comfort zone.

these bad habits were exacerbated during this summer series where most pitches were designer and killed the fighting spirit.

5) I won't be too critical of Prior...his wicket keeping is still OK.
He punched above his weight for a prolonged purple patch lasting 2 to 3 years...and now law of averages is catching up.
Problem is with Flower who forgot to be prepare when the law of averages will catch up with Prior like it does with all mortals

Bell was class,

Does he live in a bubble or something. The Fear hasn't got to him, like the rest of the regulars.

Carberry has done really well, very understated player- not a future England player for me but one that seems ultra experienced(even though he isn't at this level) and his decision making was spot on.

As a new player probably hasnt been affected like the rest. Positive singles and put away the bad ball. His out was only a 1 in 10 catch so we cant blame him.

Stokes had no chance out there , He is a good batsman but not a class one.

I think for the longlevity of the team though - we should stick with him. He is an all round option.

Prior- has to go, whether Barstow can keep as well isnt a concern for me.. He can keep and he can BAT!! - Prior does not look like staying in the team is helping him- he needs to get out and do something else for a bit to maybe get his place back

He is batting like trott has been- the rest have fear and lack of confidence- Prior has terminal fear and 0 confidence. Even amongst the other bad performers- He shines out as the worst.

Root is digging in for dear life- but is at least still showing good technical ability, he just needs to somehow get a bit of what Bell has and he will be fine- same goes for Cook.

KP is KP-this is how he allways plays.

BUt the question is why did we gamble.. our bowling has been ok and our batting bad- so why didn't we strengthen the batting. Why did we gamble on winning the toss(by picking Monty and stokes)

just 100 more runs and its not so embarrassing- there would still be a hope of a draw

Think KP_fan talks a lot of sense...apart from seeming to place the blame solely on Andy Flower.

With such total annihilation as we've witnessed so far, you can't place the blame wholly on any one individual.

Yes, it certainly looks as though England were massively under-prepared and the coaching staff have to take the blame for that.

However, this is a veteran Test squad we have out there, apart from Carberry and Stokes. These are all players who have won Test series in the past...even quite a few Ashes veterans in there.

Surely they should have the wherewithal to be able to put some half-decent performances together, without being directed every step of the way by the coaches?

I think the main thing I agree with KP_fan on is that our players look scared when batting and are at a psychological disadvantage even before facing their first ball. they're either too scared to play their natural games, or are scared of ignoring the coaches when they find the team strategy isn't working.

Similarly, our bowlers look absolutely clueless when faced with batsmen who are actively looking to get after them on flat tracks, rather than being more cautious, as they were over here, on our more bowler-friendly wickets.

I wouldn't mind so much, but its not like the majority of the squad haven't played in these type of conditions before...

Predicting a 5-0 whitewash here. The Aussies will want to really rub Englands' noses in it after losing over here in the Summer.

WE have the FEAR.

Its that simple

You know is tough when a pitch resembles a glass surface for one team, and the amazon for the other.

So how do we think the Aussies will bat for? Johnson's said they want to make us toil in the field for a long time, but surely declare at lunch?

There's always hope...

There is nbo point batting any more.

The more they bat the less chance they have of getting a win.

But the chances is are they will still get a win even if they leave it till the last day.

THe odds on scenario is that they will just bash it 20/20 style tonight and then put us in when they are out. I cant see why they would prioritize our time in the field. That is pushing there luck

I think Clarke allows Warner to get to triple figures. And then declares when Warner gets to a random, unimportant milestone (112, or something). He won't want to declare exactly when Warner reaches 100, because the English will be expecting it, he'll drag it on a little longer to further demoralize them.